Shoud we or shouldn't we feed our kois with color food?
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    I hope to see good discussions on the above topics?
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • waterkeeperwaterkeeper August 2012
    Posts: 16
    I feed my tosai with 30% - 50% color food with high spirulina, to cope with the growth ...
    Sansai and above usually max 30% color. - Sharing Nishikigoi Experience !
  • smokersmoker August 2012
    Posts: 715
    For kois with beni, We need to feed color food if we do push the growth, and want big bulky body. Regularly, I mix my feeding with color food for one week and then stop colorfood for 1-2 weeks according to what i see.

    If we only feed little and let it grow relaxly and normally like fish in nature, then we don't need to feed color food.
  • grinkz01grinkz01 August 2012
    Posts: 530
    well.....ever read futoshi conversation (i had the screen shot in my gadget but can't upload........) about feeding regime...he suggest not to feed color food at all, try to re-write the script

    Futo emphasized that there were many extremely important issues to remember when growing and feeding koi in a hobbyist koi pond.
    1) Best Result will be from ponds containing similar sized koi ............ dst
    2) water quality at highest possible level of aeration....
    3) Natural sunlight is very important.......
    4) Feed fresh high quality koi food, vitamins lose potency in a few weeks
    5) Never feed color food. Color food harms color layer and dulls the skin sheen.This will confuse owner as to proper condition......
    6) Always better to feed too little than too much. Most hobbyst feed too much and feed incorrectly based on season and food type.
    dan seterusnya.....

    and yes, his #5 statement is really confusing me 8-| ......maybe he is mentioning not to feed color food too much nor part of daily diet, but more for contest preparation ?????

    I also being told by senior shifu & also breeder in Indonesia that koi doesn't produce color pigment by themselves, so they need help from color food. With this supplement plus natural sunshine and good water quality, koi will develop to its maximum potential....

    In practice, I feed color food to my kois.......20% as daily diets (60% growth, 20% WG, 20% color)....
    Post edited by grinkz01 at 2012-08-22 01:37:46 pm
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Grinkz01,

    There is nothing confusing with Futoshi Mano's statement.

    Statement 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 are related and interconnected with number 5 statement of "this will confuse owner of the proper condition"

    Statement 1 means if you place young tosais with large kois, the young kois might tend to over eat and they become fat( not to be confused with girth in large kois). This stretches their beni.

    Statement 2. talks about the importance of providing the best water condition(including ideal temperature) and highest oxygenation levels that reduces the stress levels of kois for them to consistently develop their beni quality along with growth.

    Statement 3. Kois require a few hours of natural sunlight a day for them to receive the much needed vitamin K that improves their beni

    Statement 4. Vitamin C or ascorbic acid is not a stable vitamin and degrades quickly. Vitamin C improves the beni, shiroji and sumi

    Statement 5. Good quality koi often times do not need much color food to intensify their color. too much Color food dulls the shine of the shiroji as well as the beni. When I say good quality koi, its beni can normally keep up with its rapid growth rate. In my experience, too much spirulina while it does intensify the beni color, it does not deepen the color layer. Moreso, spirulina slows down the growth.

    Statement 6. Many hobbyist make the mistake of feeding too much in the quest for rapid growth. Sometimes, suddenly feeding more to the kois causes water quality to deteriorate faster which affects quality

    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-08-22 05:50:42 pm
  • grinkz01grinkz01 August 2012
    Posts: 530
    bro hdcu...yes I am fully agree with all statement except #5.....never feed is not the same as don't feed too much ..this part is really confusing me also logically thinking if color food not good at all then why many big palet producers keep investing on research & product launching then? my opinion, spirulina is rich of beta carotene which is no correlation with growth (protein and fat play much more roles on growth)....unless u did portion substitute between color food (spirulina) and growth food
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Can anybody show pictures instead of just thinking out loud?
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Mostly color food use astaxanthine than spirulina.

    Harry Luhur
  • cubercuber August 2012
    Posts: 96
    bro Grinkz01,
    on the other thread you said you feed color food, but don't see any different, then why do you still feeding them?
    As for me, I'm not feeding any color food at all, and I don't see the beni drop, maybe it's because my pond is full outdoor? So enough exposure of sunlight? I'm also not sure.. :-?
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Cuber, how do you know beni did not drop? Did you compare the koi from before and after using photo? It is quite difficult to see gradual beni drop, since we cannot notice the small changes.

    I can agree some kois do not need colour food or even if they were fed, there is no difference. But over an extended period of time? Most colour food are not strong enough to show the effect in a short period of time.
  • cubercuber August 2012
    Posts: 96
    Bro James,
    Yes, I did compare the koi using photo, the only noticeable changes is in the shirogi, which turn to be yellowish or pinkish, that was when I decided to stop feeding color food.
    There was not changes in the beni at all, or maybe I'm just not using it long enough, but I'm more worried of the shirogi turning yellow. And so far I'm quite satisfy without the color food for my kois.
  • ashfaqashfaq August 2012
    Posts: 799
    Bro james, I second you on requesting for fotos :) to compare and learn..
    Ashfaq from India-Chennai
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Grinkz01,

    You have to understand the statement of futoshi mano was based on a four season climate and not based on a tropical climate of which they have less experience. In a four season climate, the kois are allowed to grow during the warmer climate and then to consolidate their colors during the cooler season by practicing fasting. Most breeders will agree that a koi that has been fasted in cold weather even without being fed color feeds develop more beautifully as compared to kois fed throughout the year in warm water even when fed with color food.

    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-08-22 11:19:06 pm
  • wongyengwongyeng August 2012
    Posts: 238
    Somebody posted a few youtube videos on grow out "specialist" Andrew Moo who mentioned that Males tend to have bright colors so no need to feed color food whereas females tend to hv "duller" colors therefore need to feed color food in preparation for show.

    He also mentioned that best to keep kois of same size so that they grow out together rather than bigger kois taking up all the food leaving the scraps to little babies with nothing to eat.

    He also said that best to keep males together OR females together because males and females tend to have different feeding styles...
  • grinkz01grinkz01 August 2012
    Posts: 530
    yah...maybe u are right bro hdcu....different season between japan and here....
    bro james..sorry i dont have any picts coz i cant differentiate koi color before and after feed color but i am still feed them with color..simply because i believe that color food will give someimpa t eventhough the impact is very little.....

    that is why i hope i can learn from this discussion.....

    abang shukri where r u?.....hope to hear some thoughts from u.....
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Hahahaha Bro Grinkz,
    I am just close by......been reading all the comments. It is good that everyone is chipping in thus making the discussion to be more interesting......

    In general, raising kois in Japan and raising them here in our region.....definitely will be different in many areas. They have different water composition and different soil composition i.e. when comparing Mud Ponds.

    For hundreds and possibly thousand of years that the Japanese have been perfecting the looks of the so called Nishikigoi. Naturally, they know what DOS and DON'T.

    OK, lets look at the technicalities with regards to color. Koi have cuticles, which are double structures made up of an external epidermis and an internal dermis, within which are the nerves, blood vessels, PIGMENT cells and scales.

    There are 4 types of color pigment cells known as CHROMATAPHORES, MELANOPHORE (containing tyrosine and phenols for black pigment), XANTHOPONE (with yellow caroteniod pigment), ERYTHROPHORE (with red carotenoid) and LEUCOPHORES (with guanine for white pigment). The combinations of these pigment cells provide all the colors of koi, such as red and yellow to produce the 'orange' coloration, or black and yellow mixing to be come brown.

    The number of pigment cells is fixed from birth, and the amount of color will not increase with age. What is not reveal during the Tosai stage, does not mean that the color pigments are not present. However, the color will develop (emerge, intensity and gain sheen) if the chromatophores are deep lying. Please not that chromatophores on the surface of the skin only will result in thin and fading colors.

    Pigment cells occur in both the scales and skin. In the scales they could occur either within a scale or on the underside of the scales. They couls also lie within the skin or just below the skin. Pigment cells mature with age, some taking a long time to become established. Black sometimes remains submerged for many years, only being revealed as grey as grey or blue smudges. Red pigment cells often appear orange-red in Tosais and young kois, maturing into persimon red or cinnamon red.

    So guys, you can take your pick! You can either let the kois grow and take its course, or you can intensify the color pigments earlier by feeding the color food. You cannot increase the pigment cells as these are fixed at birth.....

    This is my two cents worth............
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-08-23 05:09:03 am
  • grinkz01grinkz01 August 2012
    Posts: 530
    abang shukri.....definitely ur 2 cents means $$$$ of knowledge for me...thanks....

    i know now that feeding color will just help to expedite color maturity and will not increase it (adding color pigment) =D>
  • HDCuHDCu April 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    I am bumping up this thread again as I would like to know if opinions have changed or if theres is nee opinion.

    1. To those who have installed chiller now, is the need for spirulina decreased or eliminated?
    2. What would you prefer? A slow acting color food or a fast acting color enhancer?
    3. Does feeding color enhancer makes it harder to filter the water?

  • ShukriShukri April 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    I would love to see the feed backs of others on the subject matter......

    1. Even though chillers are installed, what I have noticed is that if we feed heavily and the kois are bulking quite fast, I do have to feed color food as well, if not the Beni will looked thin at certain point and time. If the growth are normal, then possibly that color food could be reduced significantly. If we are considering our kois for shows, then color food has to be maintained in order to keep the Beni tone at its best all the time.....

    2. I have always used the slow enhancing color food as opposed to the fast acting ones.

    3. Heavy feeding with always compromise water quality.....This is the compromise.......... 2 times feeding a day will be OK for once a week cleaning and backwashing of the filters. 3 to 5 times a day feeding will require cleaning and back washing once every 2 days..........

    How are you guys doing it? I have all ears........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-04-19 01:06:20 pm
  • HDCuHDCu April 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    1. I have been able to maintain water temperature around 25C(24.5 to 25.5C) but i have continued feeding 50/50 fd color/higrowth. I did notice when i had water temperatures of 22-23, I had to reduce color to 40/60 because I felt color was too much at 50/50. Im not sure if was because growth was slower at 22-23c or whether the beneficial effects of color is more pronounce easily in cooler water. I do notice at 28C, it was much harder for the color food to take effect.

    2. I too have picked the slower acting color compared to the fast acting. In our recent national koi show, I was surprised to saw the advantage effect of a fast acting China brand koi food which produced amazing deep red within a month of jist being fed(not really soft thick type but more opaquee red) ). I am not sure though whether this is good or bad( finishes the koi faster). Maybe time will tell perhaps.

    3. What i do notice whenever i clean my brush/sump chamber(everyday). The higher the color enhancer I feed the more blue/green stuff than settle on the brush which are harder to remove from the brushes. Less color, less settlement. This makes me wonder how digestible is the spirulina found in the koi food.
  • ShukriShukri April 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Thanks for sharing Bro HDCu........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.

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