Lots of questions on pond design.
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Q
    That is the gist of it. Do you have reference as to how to size the vortex for a design flow?
    A
    Yes I do. I believe vortex has to be 10% of the flow into it minimum, and SC has to have 5min retention time minimum.. Calculated Q/Vf (as U thought me...)

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4848/fil-5_copy.jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4849/v5.PNG
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4850/vortex2.gif
    The cone of the vortex needs to have min 45% angle, and the height of it needs to be sufficient for settlement to occur.... That is why I was worried about head loss...
    And I planned for 2 vortex chambers...one on each BD, or maybe I do one bigger one...????
    It will be easier to maintain, No???
    Now I need to recalculate the size of the vortex since U advised on ones per hour turnover....But that I can do...
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-11-14 10:21:25 pm
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Thanks for :
    Q
    The minimum velocity to keep the pond floor clean is 0.75m/s. So according to the formula I have....V1=(2Ao/ACt) power of 1/2 * V2
    where
    Ao total area of discharge jets
    V1 velocity of pond
    A area of jet opening
    V velocity of the jet...
    Ct= 0.9
    So to calculate V I need in the jets
    I will have:
    V=(0.75m/s)/((2Ao/ACt) power of 1/2)
    I made my self a small spread sheet to calculate/variate...number of TPR and A
    Can U check it and see if my spread sheet is a OK?
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/false/harry's%20formula.xlsx
    Did not find that any where , but found recommended ratios of TPR velocity to pond velocity...

    Q
    This one puzzle me a bit as what has influence you to think along this line.
    May I know…..Why do you want to have an elevated chamber for your TPR? Why can’t it be piped return from the pumps?
    A
    The type of pump I planned to use, and this pond filtration system, which has minimal friction loses on the pump, so U get max flow, for less KW.Economics for the long run of operation...cost of electricity...
    I failed to find the link...on U tube but I have some snips from it:

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4851/hK2 (655x396).jpg
    This is the last chamber in his filter, higher than the rest of the filter and pond, where all his returns feed from. The water inside is pumped from the next chamber where the pumps are located...
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4852/hK21 (667x392).jpg
    U can see his returns on the bottom and he has a water fall in this chamber too...
    All returns are gravity fed...
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-11-14 11:46:35 pm
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    I know the guy who owns this pond...It was a swimming pool and he converted it to a pond...He is a Koi dealer in SA, and my friend went on a pond safari there and said all works very well.He uses 65mm returns to pond...
    I plan to use 2 x 4" pipes, one on each side of the pond,reduced to 2" pipes at point of entri of the TPR, and if I see I dont have enough velocity reduce the 2" pipe to 1.5 at the end...of the TPR...
    The only problem I seeis that I will not have a way of adjusting each TPR...
    Do U see much difference in discharge between the last and first TPR?
    My second option is to use 2" TPR from source and reduce them at the end if need be, and put a valve on each to adjust flow...maybe reduce them at the end again????
    What do U think????
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-11-14 10:51:36 pm
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Will Bernolly equation play a role here... If I put the stand pipes, to the nearest TPR higher than the stand pipe (I mean top of entry of pipe) of the one that is further, (change Z1 and Z2), will that help balance the flow?
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Can U check this and tell me if I am in principle right, since I used some hypothetical figures...
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/false/formulas%20harry.xlsx
    This one is better explained...
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-11-15 01:47:37 am
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Are U sure of the 0.75 m/s value... look what I found:
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4853/nnnn.JPG
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-11-15 01:14:17 am
    Attachments
    nnnn.JPG 46K
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    I want U to look at this too. It is a PDF document that I can not copy...so I snipped it:
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4854/plug%20flow.JPG
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-11-15 01:29:54 am
    Attachments
    plug flow.JPG 146K
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Can U check this and tell me if I am in principle right, since I used some hypothetical figures...
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/false/formulas%20harry.xlsx
    This is the same sheet I posted above.. but there are small mistakes there (V1 and V2)
    so this one is better explained....
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Neli

    Hope by now your health has fully recovered.
    I like your determination and commitment to find answers to an identified problem. Not many people are brave as you……you have shown an exemplary here.

    Quote
    What do U mean short circuiting...????

    Answer
    Say for example you have a shower of water flowing down the koi pond and you have an over spilled pipe near to it or a TPR pipe return near to it…… A significant amount of water that has flowed down will be drawn by this pipe into the filtration chamber.

    Quote
    The reason I wanted to put the weir/OS in second chamber where the izeki is, is because I wanted to use vortex chambers as 1st chamber and the vortex's pickup is high so it could have sucked in the debris from the skimmer.

    Answer
    There is no problem where you will pipe it to eventually but you need to have a flexible collection system to collect leaves and debris at the 2nd chamber or at the inlet fiunnel of the over spilled pipe.

    You will eventually need to have a number of skimmers around the pond to collect debris….you might want to design this over spilled and the rest of the skimmers as a total collection system discharging into a specific chamber for ease of maintenance.

    Quote

    I would prefer not to have piping in the OSF...I would like it like the one on the picture above.

    Answer
    This one I cannot understand…..Why you cannot incorporate the one on the picture above?

    Quote
    Harry if I make the OSF deeper???? the water that goes through it, will be taken out of the BD circuit, No? I dont get this one...

    Answer
    The amount of water that it can be drawn through the OSF is determined by the difference in height (drawn down) between the koi pond free water surface level and the free water surface level of the filtration chamber. That is the head that is pushing it. The entry of the OSP into the filtration chamber does not control the amount of water it will discharge. It is the difference in head.

    If you want to know the amount, you can calculate it as follows:

    Let say the difference in height of the free surfaces water levels is = h mm
    The velocity of the water going to the OSP is square root of (2*g*h)
    Let say the pipe area is “A” m2, the discharge through here is =square root of (2*g*h)*A

    Yes, you are right. This amount will be taken out of the BD circuit. This amount to me is relatively small and will not significantly altered the flow rate in your BD. You can include this in your BD calculation for a complete analysis.

    Quote
    I have borehole...and a huge overhead tank with 2 " pipe for top up...

    Answer
    Hehehe….ok that is good but make sure the overhead tank volume is larger than the amount you will make up else you will run your place dry. Hehehe……..

    Quote
    What about the automatic top up???

    Answer
    There is nothing wrong with the automatic top up idea. It is good as long as the automatic top up can handle the high pressure from your overhead tank.

    Quote
    That is the reason I put it there...The height of the OS can easily be adjusted by the height of the plate in it...until I get it right.I can have a second plate that blocks the OS totally during flushing time...

    Answer
    I cannot see how the water level between the KP can be balance to be at the same level as the KPF. I am also not too sure what type of mechanical plate you will be using to be able to shut off the water completely. A modify sluice gate type?

    I will revisit the diagrams again.

    Quote
    Is the water going over the WGOS not going to depend on the discharge into the KP of the WG pump...I will have a gate valve on that line...so I can adjust the flow...to the KP. :

    Yes, the amount of water going over the WGOS is going to depend on the discharge into the KP of the WG pump. Don’t use gate valve unless you want to control the flow by a more accurate amount. It takes ages to turn. A full bored Ball valve will be a better consideration.

    Quote
    This is how I wanted to make the WGOS

    Answer
    I understood… you want to play with the water levels to discharge via the overflow skimmer water fall. In practice this is difficult to toy around as all our calculations cannot be taken as absolute but it does provide a good estimation of the eventual overall flow system and most importantly the sizing of the appropriate pump to handle the design flows across the system.

    When you construct, you will make a slight modification to the piping route and that will again altered flow parameters. Have you make an elevation and plan mapping of your proposed piping route?

    My proposal will allow you to have what you want it to do under various situations and even more. Two box up need to be built at the koi pond behind wall of the water structure containing the basket. Go and see the link you provide on how they built the waterfall outfall. Similar concept….but with a skimmer box before it and a return piping return to KPF only.

    Quote
    WGP is 60cm lower than KP.... I think U did not understand me...I want 2 OS...at different locations, one from KP to KPF and one from KP to WG...
    I am not explaining it too well... Look again at the top view in the diagrams...situation1,2,3..

    Answer
    That is exactly how I have interpret, hehehe…….I read and read your statements triple times and study your diagrams for have a day.

    You want water to be able to discharge from the KP to the WGP and from KP to KPF. You further want to be able to independently control the discharge to each of this pond area individually and as a whole.
    Is it the piping line after B3 in my diagram confuse by indicating like a piping all the way back to the filtration chamber area.

    Quote
    If U look at the picture of the pond I posted... he is using 2 of those pumps...
    In the same manner I want to use them...
    Like this:

    His pump is pumping only over a distance of 30cm max, through a 4" pipe, that is why I said head loss is minimal... only we have to consider the height of the chamber into which the pump pumps, Where the gravity return set up is...
    His set up is:
    Pond>(BD and OS)>SC>filter>pump> TPR chamber>pond. Minimal loses... No?

    Answer
    NO.
    When the pump pumps water from the (KPF pump chamber) to the (KPF chamber to TPR)…initially it will be fast (this is because water head column has not yet built up, there will be an impression this pump is high discharge)…as the water height in the (KPF chamber to TPR) rise, the KPF pump discharge capacity will be reduced substantially….most probably something exponentially like I have described before.

    If you can go and see how deep his pump chamber is then you plus the elevated height of the return chamber. This is the static head his pump is pumping to reach that height. Does this equate to 5M. Next measure his with of his weir channel and the height of water flowing over it. You can calculate the approximately amount it is discharging. From the photos depicted, I see the flow is small very small. For a discharge of 36m3/hr or 18m3/hr over that small little weir it should be like Niagara Falls.

    Quote
    I believe vortex has to be 10% of the flow into it minimum, and SC has to have 5min retention time minimum.

    Answer:
    Hehehe…..Wait…The schematic diagram you have drawn for the vortex chamber is one of the many possible configurations. How are you going to ensure the flow entering the unit will be spinning to form a vortex flow. Will the design velocity of the BD flow sufficient to initiate the spin.

    From what I know…you need to have multiple vortex chambers connected in series. How many? It depends on the solids and how the particulate of the solid will be suspended and settle by it weight by the collision of the particulates as it rubs against the tank wall and the particulates collision as it spin in motion. The 1st chamber will experience the highest spin and the bigger shit lumps will rest here and gradually the amount of water spinning will fall off as it travels from chamber to chamber. It is this gradual slowing down of the spinning from tank to tank that will eventually cause the settling of more fine solids.

    Let me see whether I can find the formula to size the tank and how many is required from a waste water treatment engineer.

    You may want to read this
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/685/constructing-a-koi-pond-please-comment/p6

    I have constructed the tube settlers but I have yet to verify its effectiveness in removing the settleable and suspended solids.

    In your case…since you can afford a bigger size than mine….your SC (if you do incorporate) will be designed slightly differently.

    Quote
    The minimum velocity to keep the pond floor clean is 0.75m/s. So according to the formula I have....V1=(2Ao/ACt) power of 1/2 * V2
    where
    Ao total area of discharge jets
    V1 velocity of pond
    A area of jet opening
    V velocity of the jet...
    Ct= 0.9
    So to calculate V I need in the jets
    I will have:
    V=(0.75m/s)/((2Ao/ACt) power of 1/2)
    I made my self a small spread sheet to calculate/variate...number of TPR and A
    Can U check it and see if my spread sheet is a OK?
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/false/harry's%20formula.xlsx
    Did not find that any where , but found recommended ratios of TPR velocity to pond velocity...

    Answer
    No spreadsheet can be downloaded. Please reattach.

    I am not comfortable with that velocity formula (it is too empirical to his given model) but will review it again.

    Quote
    The type of pump I planned to use, and this pond filtration system, which has minimal friction loses on the pump, so U get max flow, for less KW. Economics for the long run of operation...cost of electricity...
    I failed to find the link...on U tube but I have some snips from it:

    Answer
    See my earlier explanation and comments.

    Quote
    I plan to use 2 x 4" pipes, one on each side of the pond,reduced to 2" pipes at point of entri of the TPR, and if I see I dont have enough velocity reduce the 2" pipe to 1.5 at the end...of the TPR...
    The only problem I see is that I will not have a way of adjusting each TPR...
    Do U see much difference in discharge between the last and first TPR?
    My second option is to use 2" TPR from source and reduce them at the end if need be, and put a valve on each to adjust flow...maybe reduce them at the end again????
    What do U think????

    Answer
    The discharge will be large between the 1st and the last because of energy losses along its return route.

    While you do all this calculations of the return piping discharging into the pond from the KPF chamber to TPR….watch out for this…. If you have so many return discharge from this (KPF chamber to TPR), will it water column head be draw down( like a yoo yoo). Remember it is the difference in height between the free water surface of this (KPF Chamber to TPR) to the pipe return discharge point (i.e the head) that will determine the available velocity flow in the return piping discharging into the pond.

    Quote
    Will Bernolly equation play a role here... If I put the stand pipes, to the nearest TPR higher than the stand pipe (I mean top of entry of pipe) of the one that is further, (change Z1 and Z2), will that help balance the flow?

    Answer
    Yes

    Quote
    Are U sure of the 0.75 m/s value... look what I found:

    Answer
    Ok. The 0.75 is for laminar flow condition in a rectangular channel. In a circular flow…..the hydrodynamic is different; It is basically a turbulent flow. Look at the 3.24m/s inlet pipe velocity. Pipe scouring will occur at this velocity. The velocity in a circular motion will experience higher speed at its circumference and gradually decrease as it moves inward to the centre…….That is why he uses an average velocity in his statement.

    Seriously… try to imagine a particle traveling at a speed of 3m/s.

    On the PDF documentation on the efficiency of the various flow patterns with respect to the tanking configuration, I will answer separately.


    Quote
    Can U check this and tell me if I am in principle right, since I used some hypothetical figures...
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/false/formulas%20harry.xlsx
    This is the same sheet I posted above.. but there are small mistakes there (V1 and V2)
    so this one is better explained....

    Answer
    Please reattach. Cannot download to check.

    Cheers
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    First I reattach spread sheet..
    Meanwhile Ioadded lots of nonsense in it...all sorts of spread sheets for easy calculations...
    Dont laugh if they are wrong...
    I tried...
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/false/formulas%20harry.xlsx
    I tried to open it too and it does not open...Tried to save it different format...failed.
    What format should I save it in, and how do I upload it???
    I did it like a picture, but it is not opening..???
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-11-15 11:51:33 am
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    OK1 I saved it into an older format (version) and I think it can open now...
    I managed to open it...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    He he he!
    I have seen your thread. I was reading it up to now...Did U see the advise Bro Yamato gave U about the sand filter..... That bro Yamato was actually Sis Neli.....He he he!
    I stopped posting for some time...and I could not see your diagrams...
    I can see.... We both like calculating, since we dont have much practical experience... and we both thrust science.
    I have seen bro David's skimmer: good idea. That will be better for me than OS to filter...then I can drop it in the vortex....good idea, and easy to make.
    But the water fall/OS to WG I will maintain for beauty purposes...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    What We have in common I think is that We dont conform to standards, but like to try different things...
    I like that!
    I want to see your tube filter...Did U do it? and did U us enormal tubes???
    I saw somewhere that they need the V profile inside...????
    Will answer the rest tomorrow... It is 02hrs now...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    I was reading this today...Thought U should see it
    http://www.brentwoodprocess.com/tubesettlersystems.html

  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Neli

    Good day to you.


    Below is the type of flow I would recommend for your consideration in the koi pond based on the constraints and features that you want to have.

    It is a hybrid type of flow within a rectangular pond comprising of a plug flow in the longitudinal direction and a circulation motion in the transverse direction which will promote a cross flow pattern along the pond. This... I believe is the closest you can get to a circular pond environment where the flow is homogenous in nature.

    You will have the flexibility to convert it to a plug flow when require by shutting of the transverse circular motion. Plug flow configuration is prefer for the following main reasons:

    1) Better fish viewing
    2) Fish handling
    3) Cleaning

    Here is a cross sectional sketch on how the cross flow effect will be promoted.

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4867/diagram%201.jpg

    I think I must touch a bit on the boundary layers of the system in the flow so that you will have a better visualization of the matter in better perspective. The boundary layers of a stream flow (not plug flow as per se) in a rectangular pond can be visualized to be something like this at each of the walls.

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4868/diagram%202.jpg

    Just like in a river where the free water surface flow will travel faster than the bed flow and also the centre of the river flow will travel faster than the flow at the banks of the river. Did you notice that the water current at the center of a river is always stronger than at its sides?

    Having understand this and appreciate the behaviour of the flow under a given set of boundary conditions…….we introduce elements and free some of the constraints within our control to make the pond flow into a more ideal plug flow situation.

    This is how you can achieve it……

    You introduce your return flow into the pond via a series of inlet pipes, staggered in arrangement in say 3 rows at 900mm c/c horizontally and 400mm c/c vertically with higher flow discharging at the bottom along the longitudinal axis of the pond and exit via bottom drains strategically located along the center line of the pond bed. You may also even introduce perforated pipe drain line at the far end of the pond (i.e. opposite to the pond inlet line or ports) to further aid in the water column return back to the filtration chambers.

    Eg.
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4869/diagram%202a.jpg


    This way, you alter the flow profile…… to be evenly distributed across its width and depth and something like this will happen:

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4870/diagram%203.jpg

    .........at the boundary layers.

    Now this is the part that interest you the most…..you want to find out how the flow like within the pond as the column of water is in motion. Hehehe……

    You can check the velocity of flow within the flow in a plug flow condition by using this formula (well this formula again is just rearrange from the continuity equation Q=VA)

    V= (Tr*L)/36 where:

    Tr = number of turnover rate of the pond volume per hour
    L = length of the rectangular pond

    Eq

    Pond length =7m, turnover = once per hour,
    Therefore the velocity of flow within the pond is = (1*7)/36 = 0.19m/s = 19cm/s

    According to literature that I have read, pond will exhibit cleaning properties when the velocity of the flow within the pond begin at and around 10cm/s to 20cm/s. This value to me is addressing the average size settlements particulates and not the bigger shit size from big koi. In a storm water design we design (code of practice recommend) that a minimum dry flow velocity should be in the order of 0.45m/s and to achieve self cleansing properties of the channel a velocity of 0.75m/s is required. The establish value of 0.75m/s or 0.8m/s has been internationally recognized by engineers to be the minimum velocity for self cleaning in a pipe work or channel.


    Again….having this knowledge….IMO the 19cm/s is still not acceptable…….so I will introduce a cross flow into it (the length across is shorter in a rectangular pond) by introducing two lengths of perforated pipe works with reducing cross section area (to allow equal volume of discharge) of pipe works along the longitudinal and at the corner of the pond. You will then use your pump No 2 to discharge water from the filtration chamber into it. When water is pumped through these lines…the water will exit via the perforation of the pipe works, pushing debris towards the BD inlets. (Note: the BD inlets will also have lateral pull as well). You then introduce air tubes ( I just brought two units of membrane type air diffuser from USA, their bubbles are so fine) along the centre line of the pond to air and create the double circulation flow in the transverse direction of the pond.

    You will soon realise that there is always a distinct gradient in water quality from one end (inlets) to the other end (outlets) This is due to the metabolic by products are more at the downstream area. Dissolve oxygen level naturally will be lower here. You overcome this by directing more air into the downstream area. This resolve the DO level distribution along the length of the pond.

    Now the koi will not like the flow at the inlet area as it produces strong current and will congregate at somewhere further downstream of the flow (i.e. half portion of the pond). At this portion of the water area….you introduce a series of water jets (like Jacuzzi…hehehe….) to exercise your koi which can be set on timer. If they don't like it...they swim upstream and will also be exercised against the incoming flow)

    I believe with the present constraints you have highlighted, this is one possible way that you can design your pond flow system to stand a better chance to use the high flow low head pumps you have in mind.

    Just a guesstimate…..you will most probably require a total of 1.5hp to 2hp pumping power to drive your water column to have one turnover per hour. If you have more turnovers per hour, you will have higher velocity of flow in the pond…..but check retention time in filtration, you need longer time if your filtration media is not the efficient type.

    I know you have been reading many articles written by many people. All those studies or comparisons that they have carried out are meant and related for big scale fish farming at large. Their rectangular pond size that they have or need to be constructed to house the fish is big (width and length) and the multiple water inlets concept to promote plug flow will not work as the pumping power will kill them and the prefer velocity of flow will diminish half way down the stream as their rectangular tank will be long to take advantage of the bigger floor space for a given pond volume. Your case is different because you can achieved those desirable parameters quite easily as your length and width is within control.


    Yes…the flow within the pond need to be addressed properly and then follow by the determination of the filtration materials and the removal of waste as is required. Then only you go into the hydraulic to ensure that they meet your 1st and 2nd objectives. You have most of it under considerations and in the process of designing it but I find the sequences and its orders are not systematically addressed.

    Seriously…..when I look at those empirical circular motion formulas that you have brought out and links……I have many question marks all over head as they are too empirical and the modeling they have carried out is not representative to the actual situation of your pond.

    May be you should send a PM to TOM and asked him how his pond shits at the bottom of his pond are behaving……is it close to his 1st imagination when the salesman promote to him? I don’t see him showing how clean his pond bed is…..and from the last few pics he has depicted…..I don’t see that magic circulation flow in motion. I bet when he turns on the bottom drain air diffusers….he could hardly be able to see his koi in good view. To me....that configuration of flow will come naturally as he wanted a waterfall at the middle of the pond.

    Cheers
    Post edited by harryyew at 2011-11-18 01:02:06 am
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    First thing in the morning...
    Bro Harry's reply...
    But before that: I went to SA, for the show, and visited a fish farmer... This is what he uses in his filter. They sale itin some Koi shops, but I believe it is used for cooling towers...
    Now I can not remember if that was his bio or his mech. filter, but thought U might like to see it:
    The rest of the pictures are on my FB page, since I uploaded them from some one's PC there and they are not on this lap top.but U have the link for my page...
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4871/223212_149609448442740_146822465388105_292001_4466087_n.jpg
    This is media he makes him self by cutting that pipe...
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4872/225440_149609168442768_146822465388105_291998_5707425_n (1).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4873/226398_149609298442755_146822465388105_292000_6018963_n.jpg
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Bro Harry it seems we posted at the same time.... I think of U and U think of me... he he he.
    And I think this he he he! U got from me..... he he he!
    Just remember he he he! is reserved for girls....boys should go ho ho ho!
    What time is it there now? here it is 09 hrs in the morning...
    Thanks for the reply...
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Quote
    He he he!
    I have seen your thread. I was reading it up to now...Did U see the advise Bro Yamato gave U about the sand filter..... That bro Yamato was actually Sis Neli.....He he he!
    I stopped posting for some time...and I could not see your diagrams...
    I can see.... We both like calculating, since we dont have much practical experience... and we both thrust science.

    Answer
    Yes…and I thought Yamato was a he….but a she now….hahaha…….

    Yes…a design with some calculations to substantiate to conceptual plan is necessary. We cannot afford to realize the problem after the real size has been physically built.

    When you make the waterfall….have a sharp edge crest constructed…so that a sheer sheet glass effect can be seen. Have it a bit longer, maybe like 2m and watch out for the nappe forming. In order to achieve a perfect level crest you make an adjustable plate with screws to vertical slots for fine tuning the outfall.


    Quote

    I want to see your tube filter...Did U do it? and did U us enormal tubes???
    I saw somewhere that they need the V profile inside...????

    Answer
    Yes..of course. I made it from PVC pipes. OK…will show later.

    I consulted a waste water treatment engineer as to where I can buy this hexagonal tubes. He informed me he has try importing it from Taiwan before but they are fragile and break easily. He recommends for plates settler but I find it will not give me the bigger surface area…..so I try tubes instead.

    All those calculations are in theory…I will be able to verify it effectiveness when I have some real koi shit to treat. Hahaha….. I will share my observations accordingly.


    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    It is 3.20pm here and it is raining heavily. Cannot go galavanting.

    Wah!!! my neigbour always proudly show his guests about my pond. He likes it very much but he run out of space to constructed. hahaha....

    He calls me just now. His relative was so impressed with the glass shade roof that I constructed and start taking photographs. My neighbour said to him.....No need one....can make appointment with me to have a closer view this evening and how to construct.

  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    I am lagging behind... Typed this in the morning and had no internet up to now.
    First let me answer yesterday's post... I am lugging behind and U are to blame... U make me read so many things... (your thread.. and tube settling..), but I find it very interesting...and I love learning...

    Hope by now your health has fully recovered.
    I am better now... Thanks!
    Q
    I like your determination and commitment to find answers to an identified problem. Not many people are brave as you……you have shown an exemplary here.
    A
    I have messed up big time the first time, have no one to ask here...or see a pond with filtration...and dont know too much so it is better to ask for help, than mess up again...keep in mind that I am still a hard headed girl...

    Quote
    What do U mean short circuiting...????

    Q
    There is no problem where you will pipe it to eventually but you need to have a flexible collection system to collect leaves and debris at the 2nd chamber or at the inlet fiunnel of the over spilled pipe.
    A
    Did U look at my design for the filter....most of it is my own inventions... (or all of it)
    I have izeki in the second chamber...If I am not mistaken I got the idea from Bro Daniel here, from another forum...(google) but used it in different manner, and design so far.So if skimmer enters second chamber,,, izeki will sort it out and it is easy to clean.
    Q
    You will eventually need to have a number of skimmers around the pond to collect debris….you might want to design this over spilled and the rest of the skimmers as a total collection system discharging into a specific chamber for ease of maintenance.

    Quote

    I would prefer not to have piping in the OSF...I would like it like the one on the picture above.

    Answer
    This one I cannot understand…..Why you cannot incorporate the one on the picture above?
    A the place where I want to build it, is not conducive to that kind of arrangement.., and I want a water fall/skimmer between KP and WG for decorative purposes...

    Q
    The amount of water that it can be drawn through the OSF is determined by the difference in height (drawn down) between the koi pond free water surface level and the free water surface level of the filtration chamber. That is the head that is pushing it. The entry of the OSP into the filtration chamber does not control the amount of water it will discharge. It is the difference in head.
    A
    This one I dont get... How it is the water fall/OS affected by the difference in hight between KP and KPF water levels? To me what matters is the KPF level should be lower...How much lower? Does it matter? If it is a 1m or 5 m difference, how will that affect the OS?
    Is it not the difference in height from bottom of OS to free water level in it (H) that will affect the flow?
    Q
    If you want to know the amount, you can calculate it as follows:
    A
    I made a small spread sheet in the one I posted above for calculating that. U just need to check it up...


    Quote
    That is the reason I put it there...The height of the OS can easily be adjusted by the height of the plate in it...until I get it right.I can have a second plate that blocks the OS totally during flushing time...

    Answer
    I cannot see how the water level between the KP can be balance to be at the same level as the KPF. I am also not too sure what type of mechanical plate you will be using to be able to shut off the water completely. A modify sluice gate type?
    A
    The water in the KP will be higher than the water in KPF.(head loss) The water will flow through the OS from KP to KPF due to the expected (calculated he he he!) head loss in KPF.
    Q
    Don’t use gate valve unless you want to control the flow by a more accurate amount. It takes ages to turn. A full bored Ball valve will be a better consideration.
    A I always use every where ball valves, but girls are not very good with terminology...I dont like the valves that U need to turn in circles...I have learned my lesson with them..

    Q
    When you construct, you will make a slight modification to the piping route and that will again altered flow parameters. Have you make an elevation and plan mapping of your proposed piping route?
    A
    Not yet but I have it in my head... Need to go step by step, and I have not reached there yet...So far:
    Basically returns will be, gravity> 2x 4" pipes (one on each side of the pond) from there at each point 2 pipes 2" go up for two returns, one above the other. (for more uniform flow velocities..)
    Q
    My proposal will allow you to have what you want it to do under various situations and even more. Two box up need to be built at the koi pond behind wall of the water structure containing the basket. Go and see the link you provide on how they built the waterfall outfall. Similar concept….but with a skimmer box before it and a return piping return to KPF only.
    A there will be a decorative wall there...it will not look nice to build boxes in front of it...and that box will need to be cleaned , how will I reach it to clean it? It will be infront of a vertical wall in the middle of the pond???? I am better off if it drops in the filter...and I can clean it from that side... No?


    Q
    NO.
    When the pump pumps water from the (KPF pump chamber) to the (KPF chamber to TPR)…initially it will be fast (this is because water head column has not yet built up, there will be an impression this pump is high discharge)…as the water height in the (KPF chamber to TPR) rise, the KPF pump discharge capacity will be reduced substantially….most probably something exponentially like I have described before.
    A
    He is using 2.5" pipes and if U look at the video and the comments from the pond safari...it works very well?????
    But I need to look better into the pump issue ones I calculate all my head loss.
    Q
    If you can go and see how deep his pump chamber is then you plus the elevated height of the return chamber. This is the static head his pump is pumping to reach that height. Does this equate to 5M. Next measure his with of his weir channel and the height of water flowing over it. You can calculate the approximately amount it is discharging. From the photos depicted, I see the flow is small very small. For a discharge of 36m3/hr or 18m3/hr over that small little weir it should be like Niagara Falls.
    A
    Have U considered the fact that most of the water in that chamber is taken by 4x 2.5" TPR and that is only the extra water that goes over the Niagara falls? He he he!
    I am not sure what pumps he uses, but I will send him an email and ask...

    Q
    Hehehe…..Wait…The schematic diagram you have drawn for the vortex chamber is one of the many possible configurations. How are you going to ensure the flow entering the unit will be spinning to form a vortex flow. Will the design velocity of the BD flow sufficient to initiate the spin.
    A
    The pipe entering will be at a tangential angle...???? Dont know if the BD velocity will be OK to initiate the spin, but if that water coming out of one BD can spin a cell (half pond) of 4x4m almost, then I dont see a reason why it should not be able to spin a small vortex....???
    Q
    From what I know…you need to have multiple vortex chambers connected in series. How many? It depends on the solids and how the particulate of the solid will be suspended and settle by it weight by the collision of the particulates as it rubs against the tank wall and the particulates collision as it spin in motion. The 1st chamber will experience the highest spin and the bigger shit lumps will rest here and gradually the amount of water spinning will fall off as it travels from chamber to chamber. It is this gradual slowing down of the spinning from tank to tank that will eventually cause the settling of more fine solids.
    A
    I plan to settle my suspended solids in the izeki chamber after the vortex. It does not allow any thing to pass through it...It is very good. I will have 2 vortexes one for each BD, due to the high rate of flow I expect, and we will need to remove the vortex volume from the calculation of the detention time in the filter. It is not supposed to be included in the filter volume....which tells me that I will need to increase my filter volume to increase the detention time...since my filter media will be not up to date in the beginning...Filtration retention time = Filtration volume/Discharge rate into pond
    Here is a picture of my izeki been cleaned...The pump is on(water is coming in from the pipes where the dirt is), there is just few lines of izeki in the beginning, but U can see it is not passing to where the pump is sucking from...
    Just imagine! I did not find the picture.....
    Q
    I have constructed the tube settlers but I have yet to verify its effectiveness in removing the settleable and suspended solids.
    A
    I did not understand your diagram...But would love to see pictures of it and a better explained diagram... for me it is very interesting...
    Q
    In your case…since you can afford a bigger size than mine….your SC (if you do incorporate) will be designed slightly differently.
    A
    I would not mind considering the pipe settler....

    Q
    The discharge will be large between the 1st and the last because of energy losses along its return route.

    While you do all this calculations of the return piping discharging into the pond from the KPF chamber to TPR….watch out for this…. If you have so many return discharge from this (KPF chamber to TPR), will it water column head be draw down( like a yoo yoo). Remember it is the difference in height between the free water surface of this (KPF Chamber to TPR) to the pipe return discharge point (i.e the head) that will determine the available velocity flow in the return piping discharging into the pond.
    A
    If I should decide to use 4" pipes for TPR, I thought of using 1.5 inch at exit (reduced) to the nearest to filter TPR, and increase the height of the pipe in TPR chamber...
    I will have 3 sets of TPR on the southern side, one on the furthest corner and one on the nearest corner to filter, and one set in the middle, that will split the flow between the 2 BD.
    The middle one does not worry me...but the furthest worries me..if it will get balanced flow, to spin the circle.
    My options are:
    -use 1.5 inch for the nearest and 2" for the furthest.... and play with the height of the pipes in the TPR chambers...
    -use 2" pipes from TPR chambers with ball valves on them..
    -or invent some thing that I can push into the..end of the TPR that does not protrude to reduce its flow in case of uneven flow...

    Q
    Ok. The 0.75 is for laminar flow condition in a rectangular channel. In a circular flow…..the hydrodynamic is different; It is basically a turbulent flow. Look at the 3.24m/s inlet pipe velocity. Pipe scouring will occur at this velocity. The velocity in a circular motion will experience higher speed at its circumference and gradually decrease as it moves inward to the centre…….That is why he uses an average velocity in his statement.
    A
    Yes it is true... Baffles increase the velocity in the center near the BD...Most of them use one jet for their flow...thats why their velocities are so high...But I have seen another study, where they use vertical pipe with multiple jets on it, or jets in each corner...That reduces the velocities needed to turn the cell around... Thas why I decided to use 2 jets above each other...
    I will have to send a PM to Kent Wallis or Tom to see what flow rate they have through the jets....

    But I have many similar examples of ponds (for Koi dealers too) that use the same flow pattern...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Good day to you.
    I have seen the design U propose...I have seen a similar design, except thet there are 2 pipes along the length of the filter with openings..one acts like BD and the other returns.....
    The flow is across the bottom of the pond.
    But this type I have not seen.
    What worries me about this design,is that the flow is along the longitudinal axes, and the sediment is transported in e line like motion, like stream flow...Now considering the fact that BD does not actively suck more than 30 cm around, there will be lots of dead zones in this type of flow, between the BD's and between the Bd and the wall. The air curtain will actually suspend the sediment before it reaches the BD, which is counter productive...
    since we want it sucked into the BD.
    since U will have stream flow towards the BD, if there was no air at that place U will have more chance of collecting the sediment if U have one long collection point in the middle.
    But again any sediment that is not picked by the BD, will be blown upwards, since the 2 flows converge at that point, clash and go upwards...
    Another problem I see for my self with this design is that it will have so many pipes on the sides...I have nothing here to seal around the pipes....so I will have too much leakages around too many pipes...
    I plan to incorporate all the piping inside the pond....
    Thanks for thinking about a better design for me...




  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    No net the whole day! just few minutes..
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-11-16 09:40:16 pm
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Quote:

    I know you have been reading many articles written by many people. All those studies or comparisons that they have carried out are meant and related for big scale fish farming at large. Their rectangular pond size that they have or need to be constructed to house the fish is big (width and length) and the multiple water inlets concept to promote plug flow will not work as the pumping power will kill them and the prefer velocity of flow will diminish half way down the stream as their rectangular tank will be long to take advantage of the bigger floor space for a given pond volume. Your case is different because you can achieved those desirable parameters quite easily as your length and width is within control.
    A
    Most of the people I know build their ponds like this: circular cell design...This is the most build type of pond to date(rotating cell)...and it has proven itself.
    Look at the ponds peter Waddington builds.. They are all the same as mine.. And Peter is known and respected all over the world...is a legend...
    It is a good design proven over many years...this stream flow craze started recently...
    Again research into commercial systems is the best and most efficient...since it is commercial and it is supposed to be most efficient.
    Look at this links:
    http://www.themtherekoyas.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1448
    Peter W, is the one that invented the BD....
    Look what he says:
    The next concrete base will be cast flat to the top of the flanges on the sumps.

    After that 1.5m diameter lines will be drawn from the centres of the sumps and the 1.5m circles will remain flat.

    When the walls are being rendered there will be gentle slopes made to the edges of the 1.5m flat circles.

    The 18" diameter drain tops will then be fitted perfectly flat with spacers to make the gap between the underside of the top and the top of the base at 3/8".

    Each drain line will 'suck' water at 1,800gph and the gentle vacuum effect produced together with the clockwise current produced by the return lines is sufficient to keep these flat areas perfectly clean.

    Look here too:
    http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?49178-plumbing-head-gravity-flow-system-curve-etc..&p=849120#post849120
    http://koikichi.com/a-perfect-larger-pond-design-in-2009/
    Ay net is bad today.... cant post this 2 hrs now...
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-11-16 10:31:16 pm
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Finally internet today!
    Q
    Yes…and I thought Yamato was a he….but a she now….hahaha…….
    A
    I like the ha ha ha!
    Q
    Yes…a design with some calculations to substantiate to conceptual plan is necessary. We cannot afford to realize the problem after the real size has been physically built.
    A
    1000% correct...
    Q
    When you make the waterfall….have a sharp edge crest constructed…so that a sheer sheet glass effect can be seen. Have it a bit longer, maybe like 2m and watch out for the nappe forming. In order to achieve a perfect level crest you make an adjustable plate with screws to vertical slots for fine tuning the outfall.
    A
    I thought of doing that...I thought of sand papering a peace of glass (the edges,,) and putting it on top of the WG OS protruding little bit into the WG...What do U thing about this? Will it work?
    Did not understand your explanation well...: (have a sharp edge crest constructed) and (nappe?????)
    Maybe U make me a small drawing.... BTW I use excel for my drawings... and find it very easy since U can modify it very easy....and dummies like me can see it well.

    Q
    Yes..of course. I made it from PVC pipes. OK…will show later.
    A
    U have not posted a single picture of your pond....U need to post!
    Q
    I consulted a waste water treatment engineer as to where I can buy this hexagonal tubes. He informed me he has try importing it from Taiwan before but they are fragile and break easily. He recommends for plates settler but I find it will not give me the bigger surface area…..so I try tubes instead.
    A
    I saw it long time ago made from tubes.... But dont remember the link... I think our brains work in the same manner ....I though of it too....
    Q
    Wah!!! my neigbour always proudly show his guests about my pond. He likes it very much but he run out of space to constructed. hahaha....
    A
    Do I have to come visit your neighbor for me to see your pond????? Post some pictures! He he he!

  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Good day to you Neli

    I have looked at your spreadsheet.

    Referring to the formula you are using.....

    1) V1 = pond mean velocity
    2) V2 = jet inlet velocity
    3) Ao = Total area of inlet openings
    4) A = wet areas

    From my interpretation of the formula that you are using from the original source article, the wet areas is the sides of the walls and the floor area.

    Please see the attachments (Excel in different format) which I have comments inside the worksheets with red ink.

    I have used a lower cleaning speed of 20cm/s as the average pond water velocity in motion. The jet discharge volume require is high....very high. You need a lot of pumping power to achieve this.

    Please read this link that you have provided.... It explains nearly everything we are doing here.

    http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?49178-plumbing-head-gravity-flow-system-curve-etc..&p=849120#post849120

    Ok. I will re-examine Peter's pond design tonight.


    Quote:
    Do I have to come visit your neighbor for me to see your pond????? Post some pictures! He he he!

    Answer
    No need. Ok will take the pics 1st.

    Cheers



    Post edited by harryyew at 2011-11-17 03:07:39 am
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Now I can see it very well. I think I will wait to see how it works, but will make provision for it... I like it...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    I was looking at the spread sheet U made remarks on up to now...
    I made one serious mistake in my spread sheet...I have written detention time =discharge /volume of filter and it is supposed to be the other way around...No?
    DT=Vf/Q
    The formula I had put in cell B3 (for Ao=total area of jets) is :=F3*F3*3.14*G3 which is supposed to be the radius^2 (but I put diameter ^2 instead in F3) I can see my head was not working....
    So if the formula they give...is correct, then my spread sheet is OK, except for the input of diameter instead of radius....
    The value of cell C3 (A) I thought is supposed to be the area of one jet=3.14* r^2. I dont know why U put in cell C3==((8*4) + ((8+8+4+4)*1.8)) He he he!
    but A is the wet area.What is a wet area? The area of the pond that holds the water????
    bottom+ 4sides=wet area????? I thought it is the area of a jet... and when I looked at the formula I realised it does not make sense and U are right...
    Thats why U are needed to check things.... he he he! But I am glad the spread sheet is OK more or less....(more less than more..)
    Look carefully at J3 cell, Q=V *a (I put small a since A=wet area)
    I had put inside the value of A and not a, U did not see that one....with the correct values now Q=634l/s=over 2000000l/h discharge per jet needed, which will make the net discharge for all 8 jets added very huge... discharge into jets after friction losses....and that sounds too much to me...
    Can U check it up again? It does not seem right??????
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-11-17 12:06:53 pm
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Tom is not happy with his pond, and is talking about ammonia...and low flow rate???? so I wait to find out what the problem is...
    http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?110489-Tom-10-000-gal-pond-build/page7
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Neli

    Goodday to you.


    Quote
    I have written detention time =discharge /volume of filter and it is supposed to be the other way around...No?

    Yes...It should be Volume of filtration/Discharge volume

    Quote
    ......but A is the wet area.What is a wet area? The area of the pond that holds the water????
    bottom+ 4sides=wet area?????

    Answer
    Yes. Look again at how he derives the impulse force

    Quote
    But I am glad the spread sheet is OK more or less....(more less than more..)

    Answer
    Hahaha....The spreadsheet has been corrected to the equation you are referring in this attachment.

    Now do you know why he did not do a actual scale model to prove his beliefs? The velocity and discharge is just too much for him to generate. That why he scale it down and then blah blah blah...... The depth is a function of the flow. His experiment is non conclusive because his depth is too shallow to represent the hydrodynamic of the real thing.

    Note: I cannot agree to his formulas and assumptions made. I am doing this exercise purely academic to illustrate to you his formulas and correlations need further justification etc.

    Remember what thermodynamic 1st law said and you should question the validity of energy can be created from introduction of baffles plates. It is all an illusion>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

    Quote
    Look carefully at J3 cell, Q=V *a (I put small a since A=wet area)
    I had put inside the value of A and not a, U did not see that one....with the correct values now Q=634l/s=over 2000000l/h discharge per jet needed, which will make the net discharge for all 8 jets added very huge... discharge into jets after friction losses....and that sounds too much to me...
    Can U check it up again? It does not seem right??????

    Answer
    See attachment as in this one. Look at the flow required to create the magic circular motion!!!! It is beyond physic to treat an identified problem.
    I would not rely on it at all......

    I think you need to revisit all the discussions made you to-date. I find many times you understood it very well but somehow for unknown reason(s) you you have shown otherwise.

    Let's try again.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    In your spreadsheet.......may I know where you obtained the magic figure of 10% for the vortex to work?
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Tom's pond problems is more than what he has summarized in his replies.

    I bet his DO level is not within the general accepted range. In addition....in the near future, he will also most probably have a maintenance issue with his waterfall tanking system.

    Ask him.....what is his UV light power (40W?) and the flow rate that the pond builder has designed to flow through it.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Look at his pump performance

    Wave II 1/2 HP 8400 GPH / 5.31 ft. Head @ 600 Watts 35 Lbs. 600 Watts / 5.40 Amps @ 115 Volts

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4899/Capture1.jpg

    Do you think after all his energy losses he stills has 17ft of head remaining for his pump to discharge? I don't think so.

    Look at the piping works at the filtration chamber.....can you see what wrong with it? hahaha.................

    Cheers

  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396

    hmm.......

    Is there any reason why an air injected driven circular flow system cannot be introduced to to create that desired circular motion flow?

  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Darling I try very hard to understand it, but must admit I am not there yet.....100%...But I am trying very hard to swallow it all and chew it plus that...He he he!
    If it was not for U by now I was going to chock..
    U are right about the formula.Now that We have proven that it is not correct We need to present a paper to the international community....and show them that Oka has wasted their money doing useless research, that has no substance or applicability...and that his head is in the clouds He he he!
    U are also getting very high velocities....so it is not applicable or reasonable this formula...
    Since their velocities required does not make sence, I put again for Q= turn over rate through the SC=57m3/h, in the small spread sheet there and I get the required volume for SC for DT=30min as 1.7m3....and that is much better...and at a depth of 1.7m I get SC 1mx1mx1.7m deep...
    Will that work???
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Q
    Remember what thermodynamic 1st law said and you should question the validity of energy can be created from introduction of baffles plates. It is all an illusion>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
    A
    Remember we are talking about velocity here, will the baffle not act as a reduction in diameter there for increasing the velocity, and at the same time redirecting the flow...
    Dont U think that where the 2 flows from the two circles converge, they will transform one energy into another form, and the baffles are reducing that impact, since they are at 45*, and direct the water before it has time to clash with the opposing flow..IMHO
    Q
    I think you need to revisit all the discussions made you to-date. I find many times you understood it very well but somehow for unknown reason(s) you you have shown otherwise.
    A
    Some time confusion sets in...plus the headache I had is a bad combination...But I am still trying to understand it all, and learn in the process... This are new things to me.
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Q
    In your spreadsheet.......may I know where you obtained the magic figure of 10% for the vortex to work?
    A
    Steve Donnel, an authority on filtration gave me that figure, plus several other friends...
    The 5 min minimum retention time for SC, I got from a sight....????
    Q
    I bet his DO level is not within the general accepted range. In addition....in the near future, he will also most probably have a maintenance issue with his waterfall tanking system.
    A
    Yes he might have DO problems... he is in Florida and it is hot there...but with his BD air domes....I doubt, since I have hot weather here too...few 5 airstones in pond, but even before I put them I had no problems... that I new of...(how I love talking to U)
    Q
    Ask him.....what is his UV light power (40W?) and the flow rate that the pond builder has designed to flow through it.
    A
    I believe UV is not some thing that is very necessary in a pond...ones proper balance is achieved, the pond should be able to work properly without it.
    I believe he has a by pass that allows him to regulate the flow through the UV...there was a discussion on it if I recall well.
    I am disappointed. Kent is supposed to be an authority on ponds...But what I suspect the problem here is that he only designed the pond and it is Tom that build it... so I am sure he made some short cuts...or Kent blundered...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Q

    Do you think after all his energy losses he stills has 17ft of head remaining for his pump to discharge? I don't think so.

    Look at the piping works at the filtration chamber.....can you see what wrong with it? hahaha.................
    A
    I agree with U and looking at the curve... there comes a point in it where just 1m of head difference drastically reduce the discharge...most probably it is discharge of the pump problem...
    I have seen his chamber too...he has more losses than he thinks he has...plus the distance between FC and KP...
    I will tell him what U said and post for him the diagram...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Harry I found the pond for Happy koi on U tube: links:
    The same I told U Uses low head filtration...








  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Hi Neli

    Good day to you.

    Quote
    Remember we are talking about velocity here, will the baffle not act as a reduction in diameter there for increasing the velocity, and at the same time redirecting the flow...
    Dont U think that where the 2 flows from the two circles converge, they will transform one energy into another form, and the baffles are reducing that impact, since they are at 45*, and direct the water before it has time to clash with the opposing flow..IMHO

    Answer
    We are talking about energy here. Hehehe…..
    Again…..1st law of thermodynamic states: Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

    While energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can be transformed from one form to another. Heat can be produced by transformation that are…mechanical (such as friction), chemical (combustion), electrical or physical.

    Nope….The baffles will not act as a reduction in diameter there for increasing the velocity as in fluid dynamics as per se.

    Newton's first law of motion stated:
    An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.

    Newton's second law of motion stated:
    The acceleration of an object as produced by a net force is directly proportional to the magnitude of the net force, in the same direction as the net force, and inversely proportional to the mass of the object.

    Newton's third law is:
    For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.


    If you revisit the calculations we have carried out, you will find that the entry velocity of the water into the pond is much much higher than the velocity which reflected from the baffles.

    The baffles here merely act as a reflector. It slows down the velocity of water and change the course of the water projectile. That is exactly what Newton’s 3rd law state. There is no net force been introduced here and thus there is no acceleration in the water column. Since the water column in motion strike at angle, its velocity vectors is unbalance causing it to change it course in motion. It is this unbalance vector of forces giving the illusion that the water is moving faster.

    Like you have quoted….the baffles are reducing the impact by absorbing energy and it slows down the momentum.

    The notion that circular motion flow is a more energy efficient cannot be correct. Just look at the amount of energy required to generate a flow with 0.75m/s velocity.

    For a given volume, the circular tank will have less surface area than the rectangular is correct. Rectangular tank or square tank will have a bigger footprint for a given space layout.

    Quote
    I believe vortex has to be 10% of the flow into it minimum, and SC has to have 5min retention time minimum..

    Steve Donnel, an authority on filtration gave me that figure, plus several other friends...

    Answer
    I take that you are referring to the vortex size should be 10% of the turnover rate. I made a study on the commercial vortex chamber and found that the size of the chamber is decided by the pumping rate. For pumping rate of 3000GPH, it is about 5% of the pumping rate. For 4000GPH pumping rate it is about 6% of it and for 5500GPH pumping rate it is about 8%.

    In order for centrifugal force to be able to be generated the water must have high revolution in the chamber. This can only happen if your pumping rate, inlet and outlet are size correctly. You are looking at a 27m3/hr turnover rate and say take 8% of this flow….your chamber size is 2.2m3. This is about 1.6m diameter cylindrical of .95m and a cone height of 0.45m.

    The 48” dia vortex chamber will not work and 2 numbers will not work.


    Quote
    I put again for Q= turn over rate through the SC=57m3/h, in the small spread sheet there and I get the required volume for SC for DT=30min as 1.7m3....and that is much better...and at a depth of 1.7m I get SC 1mx1mx1.7m deep...
    Will that work???

    Answer
    Pond volume = 54m3
    Pond turnover rate = 54m3/hr
    Filtration Volume =19m3
    Assume 70% as net volume after deducting all the stuff things inside it
    Net Filtration volume = 13.3m3

    Retention time of filtration chambers = 13.3/54* 60 = 14.7 minutes.

    The retention time of the settling chamber (let’s consider you prefer the up-flow type as opposed to the horizontal type) is as follows:

    Detention time = Depth of chamber to water level/incoming discharge

    Say Depth of chamber to water level = 1.5m
    Discharge from bottom drain is 54m3/hr

    Detention time= 1.5/54*60 =1.7 minutes

    This is relatively too fast.
    30 minutes retention is good but you will need a bigger settling tank volume. Let say you have 3 main filtration chambers (settling, biological chambers, coral chamber) Dividing them equally over a 30 minutes…gives approximately 10 minutes per chamber.

    Volume of settling tank = Discharge x detention time =Qt

    So size the settling tank volume = (54/60)*10 = 9m3
    If your depth is say 1.6m….Then the plinth area = 9/1.6 =5.6m2 and if your width is 1.5m then the length is 3.73m.

    Your surface overflow rate = 54m3/hr/5.6m2 = 9.6m3/m2/hr.

    Way out of the acceptable range 1m3/m2/hr to 2m3/m2/hr. hahaha……….

    Banana…..How?

    To be continued……
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Hi Harry,
    I thought I tired U too much...but I understand...U must be very busy...
    Did U see Happy koi videos? Have U seen how small his settlement chamber is? And he says in the video that he does not clean very often his second chamber...since not much dirt reaches it...I wanted to make vortex...dont want any more... he he he! Keep changing my mind....
    I wanted to make one chamber like happy koi just for rough removal of solids and next chamber put my izeki...My izeki cleans very well, and it easy to clean...
    I found the picture I failed to find last time. Here it is:

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4909/2010-02-28 059 (800x450).jpg
    Can U see ? the pump is on (sucking water) only the last line of iseki is there and the dirt is not passing? When I clean the izeki I get dirt only on the first unit... the rest stay clean...
    I prefer izeki than my sand filter...
    What do U think about that? I make the SC 1x1x 1.6m deep and in the next chamber I put my Izeki. My izeki does not allow dirt of any kind past it...good enough to go to the bio filter...I would design the SC in such a way that it has a halve cone in the bottom for easier cleaning... I would rather have more space for bio....
    What do U think about that?
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Q:
    Newton's first law of motion stated:
    An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.
    A
    This can not happen (stay in motion) in reality...or we will have perpetual motion...There is friction in the pond...
    Q
    Newton's second law of motion stated:
    The acceleration of an object as produced by a net force is directly proportional to the magnitude of the net force, in the same direction as the net force, and inversely proportional to the mass of the object.
    A
    I am glad that U mentioned vectors, since that is what the baffle can can be considered in conjunction with...
    Q
    Newton's third law is:
    For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
    A
    This I think can also apply to the baffle...plus vector forces.
    Q
    The baffles here merely act as a reflector. It slows down the velocity of water and change the course of the water projectile. That is exactly what Newton’s 3rd law state. There is no net force been introduced here and thus there is no acceleration in the water column.
    A
    There is a force introduced... there are 2 TPR on the baffle. Look at Tom's pond...
    Q
    The notion that circular motion flow is a more energy efficient cannot be correct. Just look at the amount of energy required to generate a flow with 0.75m/s velocity.
    A
    Yes if we look at his calculations...and he also states that stream flow need 35% more velocity... he he he! so imagine what I will need according to his calculations....
    Q
    The 48” dia vortex chamber will not work and 2 numbers will not work.
    A
    Yes darling I agree. Maybe U did not see that I said that I will need to recalculate my vortex size since it was calculated on much slower turnover rate.
    Thanks for all the calculations.... they gave me food for thought... He he he!
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    This is the food for thought: (change of plan)
    I have learned from Tom's experience.....
    I will divide the pond in 2 exactly the same size halves...720cm width/2=360...-40cm (walls)
    320m...width.
    length: 1120cm pond will be 320x1120....
    deduct for filter 420x 320cm gross, pond will be 660x320cm x 180 deep. (I have reduced it)
    Now that is plenty of space for a filter...if it is not enough the chambers will be designed in such a way, that I can change my media later to more efficient one...
    Pumps????? since I am not sure what velocity I will need in my Jets... I will have to make the system flexible...so I can change/ add pumps...easily.
    I will also reduce the number of TPR, not so many...
    Did U see what P Waddy said about his BD velocity is?...He builds ponds all over the world and always the same style...It is a very old proven design...Like Tom...I will just have to do some more research on TPR placement, number.. and height... I will also put some spare TPR in case I will need them in the future...I dont want to have to break the pond later...I will just bloke them..
    Tim Waddy, (P Waddy's son) is a friend... He promised to help me, and gave me his email, but I dont want to bother him yet... Will finish the design and then ask him to check/correct/suggest,improve...But still I will not take any chances....and make plenty provisions...for failure at some point...
    I am going to sit and redesign a bit the pond... and I want U to look and see what /how We can improve it together...
    It seems the more research I do the more confused I get...
    The most important thing will be the head losses...but U are here so when it is ready the plan U can help me finalize that.U are fast, He he he!
    The next problem I will have is the actual method of construction... but U are here, so I know U will advise on that too.
    Media and filtration, I will have to do by my self, since with the limitations I have here One will need lots of imagination to design the filtration...
    I want U to tell me what U think of Happy koi pond and comment on it...I know U will have some sensible advise there too.
    Tom sent me a PM today...what to avoid.. I only posted on his thread..I want him to block his upper TPR and see if the performance will be improved...it will help me too...But I think he has just too many TPR...
    My Kois had a party today and almost burned my pump....
    I put some water hyacinth in the pond... By lunch time they had chewed, pulled all the roots, and they were all in the basket of the pump...the pump stopped pumping and got blocked...
    I caught it just on time before it burned the motor...
    Koi and plants dont mix for sure....
    But I will still put the plants...I want them to have some shade...nitrate...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    The only thing I want to get from Happy koi pond is his skimmer overspill, SC, pump chamber (maybe) and TPR chamber..I like his by pass too, and the cleaning arrangement.
    Design stays the same as Tom...Peter Waddy...
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-11-20 02:05:18 pm
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Maybe I will go with pressurized TPR ??? dont know yet.. not too sure.
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Hi Neli

    Good day to you.


    Quote

    Did U see Happy koi videos? Have U seen how small his settlement chamber is? And he says in the video that he does not clean very often his second chamber...since not much dirt reaches it...

    Answer

    Yes……His settlement chamber is too small. The reason his 2nd chamber is much cleaner is because his flow into the 1st chamber is relatively small. In fact it is too small. His turn over rate most probably is in the order of 4hr per turn. May be more…..

    Look at his 1st chamber water level relative to his pond water level. They are near to equal potential. Look again at his subsequent chambers water level relative to his pump chamber water level. See the big drawdown? You tell me what is wrong…..hahahaha…..


    Quote

    I wanted to make one chamber like happy koi just for rough removal of solids and next chamber put my izeki...My izeki cleans very well, and it easy to clean...

    Can U see ? the pump is on (sucking water) only the last line of iseki is there and the dirt is not passing? When I clean the izeki I get dirt only on the first unit... the rest stay clean...
    I prefer izeki than my sand filter...
    What do U think about that?

    Answer

    You should have 2 settlement chambers. One is the primary settlement chamber and the other a secondary settlement chamber.

    Your Izeki looks to me is behaving like a multiple mechanical woven sieve. It will sieve particulates. The extent of this sieving depends on the grit of the sieve size. Sorry I have to say this is not an efficient method of removing particulates. Too much energy is wasted and it impedes the natural flow of the water. If you have the proper turnover and/or a bigger pumping rate is introduced…..you will experience big drawdown. Your current approach velocity of the stream is low. If your stream velocity has been increase in line with the original turnover rate…..it will overflow the izeki like a weir.

    May I know how often you have to clean and how do you clean?

    This is more or less like many of the members here and elsewhere where they introduced square grit sieve with multiple folds and they have to clean it almost daily. They have built a strainer actually….To me this is labor taxing and takes away the fun of watch the koi….they have become enslave to it.

    Side note:
    Very fine screens with openings of 0.2 to 1mm can reduce suspended solids to levels near to those achieved by primary clarification……

    Quote

    I make the SC 1x1x 1.6m deep and in the next chamber I put my Izeki. My izeki does not allow dirt of any kind past it...good enough to go to the bio filter...I would design the SC in such a way that it has a halve cone in the bottom for easier cleaning... I would rather have more space for bio....
    What do U think about that?

    Answer
    I have just shown you the basic size of the settling basin you will require based on the turnover rate of 54m3 of pond volume per hr. The size of 1 x 1x 1.6m deep will not work and it will looks clean when in operation because all the shits are carried over to the subsequent chambers.

    The consideration to review the bio chambers is correct and most appropriate. You are using a low efficiency filtering media. For the type of filtering media you have described…I would make a guesstimate the specific surface area is about 100m2/m3. You can check how much of this material under consideration you need by doing a simple mathematic calculation as shown here:

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/685/constructing-a-koi-pond-please-comment/p1

    If you want another reference you can even use the nice little spreadsheet prepared by boggen which is very comprehensive and have many filtering media data you can use.
    You can download here http://boggen.110mb.com/excel_files/

    Quote
    Q:
    Newton's first law of motion stated:
    An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.
    A
    This can not happen (stay in motion) in reality...or we will have perpetual motion...There is friction in the pond...

    Answer
    Hahahaha…..you have just answered your answer.
    …….unless acted upon by an unbalanced force and that forces are the friction forces of the walls and floor, viscosity of the water and the drag force.

    Quote

    Q
    The baffles here merely act as a reflector. It slows down the velocity of water and change the course of the water projectile. That is exactly what Newton’s 3rd law state. There is no net force been introduced here and thus there is no acceleration in the water column.
    A
    There is a force introduced... there are 2 TPR on the baffle. Look at Tom's pond...

    Answer
    Yes…there is a propulsion force of water column injected into the pond but this force, the injected water does not accelerate as the net forces of the frictional forces, water viscosity force and drag force of the water column decelerate the propelled water. So…what I want to say…is there is no gain in energy in the injected water column and the notion that it generates more energy must be discarded.

    Look at Tom’s pond and note how the TPRs are arranged relative to the baffles and with respect to the BD inlets. They defy good engineering practice and the circulation motion flow is all an illusion. No one in the forum suspected there is something wrong with the design until you brought it into discussion in this forum. All the suggestions posted are nothing but trial and error and hope for the best. That is fundamentally wrong with the approach to resolve the identified problem. Of the lot….Zac statement that…..” Only water currents can move debris” is hitting the nail…..and that you have determined yourself how big the pumping power needs to be….. Depending on his new pumping power will be....his flow will improve but not significantly. Eventually….. if he wants to maintain the 1.3hr turnover rate he needs to redo his piping at the filtration chamber and have multiple pumps.

    Do you know why he is experiencing dead spots in his pond? Hehehe………


    Quote
    I have learned from Tom's experience.....

    Answer
    Hehehe….Sorry I have to say…you have not learnt from Tom’s bad experience. You have been too preoccupied with the wonder of introducing circular flow into a rectangular tank. Hahaha………

    My pond has a circular motion flow and I no need to introduce all those complicated baffles and what not…I just use differential injected water flow at different elevations of the pond…..I am merely creating a momentum here. Imagine how an airplane is lifted off too……

    Here is an interesting link..I would like to share with you…

    http://www.sciencetoymaker.org/vortex/assembl.html


    Quote
    Did U see what P Waddy said about his BD velocity is?.

    Answer

    Nope…..what did he said?


    Quote
    It seems the more research I do the more confused I get...

    Answer
    Hahaha…..that is because what you are reading do not agree with your notion.

    Like Star Wars…. Let the force be with you….and work with the force not against the force. The FORCE is too mighty to challenge. Hehehe……….

    Quote
    Media and filtration, I will have to do by my self, since with the limitations I have here One will need lots of imagination to design the filtration...

    Answer

    To me…I think the Japanese mat is a good media and can be handled easily. At 1st I was about to import it directly from oversea as local one here appear to be an imitation type. Just when my pond was ready to receive a dealer claim to have in stock and so….after checking his claim I brought one full lot from him. Bloody expensive.

    If you do not intent to import…I think a better media material would be “scotch pad”. Very high specific surface area….in the region of 400m2/m3. Only need to figure out how to contain it in a systematic manner for handling and cleaning when require.

    Quote

    I want U to tell me what U think of Happy koi pond and comment on it...I know U will have some sensible advise there too.

    Answer
    I think Happykoi pond is also an illusion of what he thinks his pond is doing…Comments as above. His pumping method and return are not efficient and is a waste of energy and all the efforts he has put in.


    Cheers
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Hi Harry,
    good to hear from U!
    Q
    Yes……His settlement chamber is too small. The reason his 2nd chamber is much cleaner is because his flow into the 1st chamber is relatively small. In fact it is too small. His turn over rate most probably is in the order of 4hr per turn. May be more…..

    Look at his 1st chamber water level relative to his pond water level. They are near to equal potential. Look again at his subsequent chambers water level relative to his pump chamber water level. See the big drawdown? You tell me what is wrong…..hahahaha…..
    A
    I was going to argue with U...I was going to say: William is a experienced Koi dealer...he can not have a turn over in his pond of ones every 4 hours...Then decided to check his thread and spent the whole afternoon looking for it...
    link http://www.koi4u.co.za/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=25&id=18520&Itemid=115
    Check it up!
    South Africans are very particular about electricity consumption...expensive...
    But I am really shocked...80K pond filtered with 36+18Kl/h?????and he gets very good results....Read the whole post....page 4 feeding rate...
    Look what Chris Nieves says about his pond...(Do U know who Chris is?)
    http://www.koi4u.co.za/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=21&id=6738&limit=15&limitstart=15&Itemid=115#23262
    second post..
    You are right about William's pond...at best when both pumps are on he gets 1.5 Hr turn over...
    So if he is managing with that flow rate I will definitely do the same...but he is talking about changing his pumps????energy consumption complaint...????
    He says his returns are all on one side of the pond????equally spaced...4 tangential returns???? circular flow...Dont get it ...Do U?
    Also he has mechanical filtration in the gulp filters...
    The way I see it (maybe it is visual deception..) his pump chamber is bellow pond level...Is it? What happens if his electricity goes off?
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Q
    Look at his 1st chamber water level relative to his pond water level. They are near to equal potential. Look again at his subsequent chambers water level relative to his pump chamber water level. See the big drawdown? You tell me what is wrong…..hahahaha…
    A
    He gets lots of restriction in his filters....
    Q
    Your Izeki looks to me is behaving like a multiple mechanical woven sieve. It will sieve particulates. The extent of this sieving depends on the grit of the sieve size. Sorry I have to say this is not an efficient method of removing particulates. Too much energy is wasted and it impedes the natural flow of the water. If you have the proper turnover and/or a bigger pumping rate is introduced…..you will experience big drawdown. Your current approach velocity of the stream is low. If your stream velocity has been increase in line with the original turnover rate…..it will overflow the izeki like a weir.
    A
    One thing I will disagree with is that it does not remove small particles...It is gathered, and it has very large holes (0.3cm2), but I dont think it is sieving the water really, it is more that the particles get attached to the net some how...but it good enough to clean the water enough for the bio filter not to clog or get dirty..
    In The SC it is harder to clean than in my new filter...I clean it ones a week.My SC is improvised, of irregular shape so I had to make them like curtains inside, so they fit tightly against the walls and the bottom...
    When cleaning I just lift and drop them rapidly 3 times and they are clean, then remove them and pump to waste...they are like new without any further washing...
    In the new filter I have done it very differently..I put it on wooden frames gathered...I just tap each frame 3 times up and down... it is light...then I put a block of wood in front of the frame. so I just lift it push it forward 5cm and it stays up above the floor...so water can pass under...wait for 5 min for the dirt to settle a bit and pump to waste...

    Here are some pictures for U.

    In the SC with all the izeki U see I use a pump of 26000l/hr, swimming pool pump...0.75KW,
    I had maybe 1 cm draw down... now I added some extra pipes to the SC entrance, long ones perforated, and my draw down went sown to 25cm maybe even more...but I know it is not from the izeki but from the perforated pipes, that suck the dirt at the bottom...
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4917/SAM_1136 (640x480).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4918/SAM_1135 (640x480).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4919/SAM_1133 (640x480).jpg
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Q
    If you have the proper turnover and/or a bigger pumping rate is introduced…..you will experience big drawdown. Your current approach velocity of the stream is low. If your stream velocity has been increase in line with the original turnover rate…..it will overflow the izeki like a weir.
    A
    Here U can be right...When I first put the izeki the water was blowing it away...thats why I put the weight on the bottom...But here I have 16 curtains grouped into 4 units of 4 curtains each...So I lift 4 at ones...
    Only the first unit gets dirty... The rest are still looking like new... So I can just put one unit of 4 curtains inside...it will not stop the flow too much...it is much less restrictive than Jap mats...and much cheaper...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Q
    Very fine screens with openings of 0.2 to 1mm can reduce suspended solids to levels near to those achieved by primary clarification……
    A
    That will clog in one hour....if not properly designed...
    I am posting today in small portions... my net is not OK.
    Q
    I have just shown you the basic size of the settling basin you will require based on the turnover rate of 54m3 of pond volume per hr. The size of 1 x 1x 1.6m deep will not work and it will looks clean when in operation because all the shits are carried over to the subsequent chambers.
    A
    I will have more or less the same flow as William's.His is smaller that 1x1m and it works...
    What ever passes it will be stopped by the izeki...No?
    A
    I plan to improve my media...I will buy it when I go to SA next year...
    A
    I used that spread sheet ones before...(boggen) it says U must pay for it....I got some thing in the bottom spreadsheet...not sure if it is correct...
    Some friends told me that Boggen spread sheets are not very accurate...
    I have 3 empty TPR because of his guestimates....
    Q
    Do you know why he is experiencing dead spots in his pond?
    A
    So far he is talking about dead spots on the surface... but I suspect there might be on the bottom too...I will send him a PM... he is a friend...
    On the surface I suspect because he does not get circulation above the baffles...
    Q
    Hehehe….Sorry I have to say…you have not learnt from Tom’s bad experience. You have been too preoccupied with the wonder of introducing circular flow into a rectangular tank. Hahaha………
    A
    Darling to date 70% or more of all ponds built are circular flow...and they work...they have proven over 30 years that they do... Just need to be designed well...
    What would U suggest your self ? (any thing but stream flow)(I am allergic to it...)he he he!
    Q
    My pond has a circular motion flow and I no need to introduce all those complicated baffles and what not…I just use differential injected water flow at different elevations of the pond…..I am merely creating a momentum here. Imagine how an airplane is lifted off too……
    A
    Darling I have tried to look at your pond design many times.. can not see any thing.. (bad eyes)(short sighted)... Can U make a simple drawing for me....on excel...Just the TPR..
    Q
    Did U see what P Waddy said about his BD velocity is?.

    Answer

    Nope…..what did he said?
    A
    I posted it here...page 13 on this thread...
    Quote again:
    Look at this links:
    http://www.themtherekoyas.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1448
    Peter W, is the one that invented the BD....
    Look what he says:
    The next concrete base will be cast flat to the top of the flanges on the sumps.

    After that 1.5m diameter lines will be drawn from the centres of the sumps and the 1.5m circles will remain flat.

    When the walls are being rendered there will be gentle slopes made to the edges of the 1.5m flat circles.

    The 18" diameter drain tops will then be fitted perfectly flat with spacers to make the gap between the underside of the top and the top of the base at 3/8".

    Each drain line will 'suck' water at 1,800gph and the gentle vacuum effect produced together with the clockwise current produced by the return lines is sufficient to keep these flat areas perfectly clean.
    He build some ponds in Malaysia too. Look at his sight.I gave U the link....
    When the neighbor saw how his neighbor pond that was built by P Waddy, he also called him to do one for him, and demolished his old pond...
    Q
    Hahaha…..that is because what you are reading do not agree with your notion.
    A
    not notion... finances...( but notions/preconceived ideas too)
    Please advise is there any circular flow that is better than mine???? I have seen so far only ponds that use circular flow in SA... they all work... and I like them...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    I want to put also 2 pares of TPR every where....with an option to block some and experiment....
    What position and depth would U advise for my TPR?
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Hi Neli

    Good day to you.

    I have 2 lousy days….hahaha……

    Let's me try to answers your remaining questions.

    Quote
    The way I see it (maybe it is visual deception..) his pump chamber is bellow pond level...Is it? What happens if his electricity goes off?

    Answer
    His pump is at or slightly just above his pond bed level. If the electricity goes off….his pumps stopped unless otherwise he has an emergency power backup system

    Quote
    I will have more or less the same flow as William's.His is smaller that 1x1m and it works...
    What ever passes it will be stopped by the izeki...No?

    Answer
    Hahaha….are you sure you want the same flow as William’s? His smaller 1m x1m settlement is not working and having an overflow weir discharging into it, is not how one designs a primary clarifier.

    Do you know what a gulp mechanical filtration system is there for? If yes…why does he need it?

    If everything pass can be stopped by Izeki….then might as well have the izeki as the 1st defense…right?

    What media do you have in mind that you want to improve on.

    Go and ask him what his estimated return flow like. Then you ask him what is his observed difference in height between his TPR return Chamber free water surface level relative to his pond free water surface level.


    Quote
    I will have more or less the same flow as William's.His is smaller that 1x1m and it works...
    What ever passes it will be stopped by the izeki...No?

    Answer
    If you have the same flow as William’s……then…..there is no way you will be able to get the circular flow motion with at least… 0.45m/s average velocity of flow. 100% cannot get.

    Nope..Izeki merely slowdown the flow and of course as a strainer it will block some fine. Look again at William’s filtration system…….Can you tell me why he has try Gulp filtration system after the secondary settlement chamber?

    Quote
    I used that spread sheet ones before...(boggen) it says U must pay for it....
    Some friends told me that Boggen spread sheets are not very accurate...

    Answer
    No need to pay one…..I have checked. Unfortunately his file is bigger than 200k….so I cannot attach here.
    I personally find his spreadsheet is comprehensive and calculate it systematical similar to the way I have calculated in my thread but his is all automated in Excel with choices.

    Quote
    So far he is talking about dead spots on the surface... but I suspect there might be on the bottom too...I will send him a PM... he is a friend...
    On the surface I suspect because he does not get circulation above the baffles...

    Answer
    Inter mixing flow

    Quote
    Darling to date 70% or more of all ponds built are circular flow...and they work...they have proven over 30 years that they do... Just need to be designed well...
    What would U suggest your self ? (any thing but stream flow)(I am allergic to it...)he he he!

    Answer
    Hahaha…….70% of these ponds don’t come with a rectangular geometry outlay. In those situation….circular flow is a natural by product. Circular flow in a rectangular pond don’t work efficiently. They just give an illusion that cannot be verified.….takes Tom’s pond as an example. His pond has been designed and built by professionals. Professionals that have been recognized by the koi community. The truth is that it needs a bit more than experience to design and built a better pond.

    Quote
    The next concrete base will be cast flat to the top of the flanges on the sumps.

    After that 1.5m diameter lines will be drawn from the centres of the sumps and the 1.5m circles will remain flat.

    When the walls are being rendered there will be gentle slopes made to the edges of the 1.5m flat circles.

    The 18" diameter drain tops will then be fitted perfectly flat with spacers to make the gap between the underside of the top and the top of the base at 3/8".

    Each drain line will 'suck' water at 1,800gph and the gentle vacuum effect produced together with the clockwise current produced by the return lines is sufficient to keep these flat areas perfectly clean.
    He build some ponds in Malaysia too. Look at his sight.I gave U the link....

    Answer
    Salesman talk only…..
    I have visited his site and read many of his articles and his experiences. He is a good writer…..Can you direct me to the specific koi pond that he has built in Malaysia…… I will visit the owner and get his or her permission to review how good his built is. To me…building a koi pond is no rocket science…..it is how much budget a person wants to spend.

    Quote
    Please advise is there any circular flow that is better than mine???? I have seen so far only ponds that use circular flow in SA... they all work... and I like them...

    Answer
    Wait….my dear. You circular flow is not working yet….and you cannot generate that average flow velocity with that pump models that you have highlighted. Go and read koi4U forum and you read how bad the pump is performing. Even Happykoi is saying
    It efficiency is 50%. That mean for every kilowatt to throw out you are getting half in return. Bad investment I must say.

    Quote
    I want to put also 2 pares of TPR every where....with an option to block some and experiment....
    What position and depth would U advise for my TPR?

    Answer
    The boundary layers with respect to the velocity of flow have been discussed in this thread. It is basically a parabolic velocity profile. If you want a vortex or spiraling effect then you need to have the TPRs at the 2/3 zone from the free water surface and regulate for slower flow by valves as you go deeper. If you want to have a full cylindrical circular flow…then…have it the other way round.

    I think the best way to satisfy you….is for you to do a direct proportion scale down model and use different colour dyes to observe how the flow like….and throw some koi shit and see before you go for a full scale built. You will then appreciate the actual problems and the science of turbulence flow is not easy to resolved and unpredictable. Let a layer of biofilm to be formed at the interface of the water and the brickwork plastered surface before you inject the flow and throw the shit.

    Do you think the koi shits are negatively or positively charge ions?

    Cheers
    Post edited by harryyew at 2011-11-23 05:18:24 pm
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    I find the electricity tarrif in SA is relatively cheaper than in Malaysia.
    Yours is R0.65/kW, convert to Malaysia ringgit is Rm0.25/kW. Malaysia tarrif is RM0.45/kW.
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Hi Harry!
    What happened? Lousy days...? not good...
    Q
    Hahaha….are you sure you want the same flow as William’s? His smaller 1m x1m settlement is not working and having an overflow weir discharging into it, is not how one designs a primary clarifier.
    A
    Why do U say his Sc is not working? It takes out lots of dirt when flushing...?????No???? He has a specific problem of lots of pine needles from a tree...and he needs to clean it before it goes in the gulp...and blocks it...I think main reason...Many people have separate pump for skimmer...but many discharge their skimmer directly in the SC too..What is wrong with that??? I dont know...
    Q
    Do you know what a gulp mechanical filtration system is there for? If yes…why does he need it?
    A
    He uses his pond to show the gulp to customers....Thats why all 3 lines have different configurations...Gulp mech. he uses for the fines...IMHO.
    Q
    If everything pass can be stopped by Izeki….then might as well have the izeki as the 1st defense…right?
    A
    I thought the SC might remove some of the larger particles...before they reach the izeki...so maybe I can clean the izeki not ones a week fut maybe 3 times a month...????
    Q
    What media do you have in mind that you want to improve on.
    A
    sticks and stones for now and izeki here and izeki there....he he he! Nothing here for media...? I am still experimenting with what I have....see what works best...
    But this is what I have tried so far....
    Bricks on top of them,smaller gravel and on top of them..large sand 5+mm. With air manifold under...and compressor for cleaning...
    Plastic shavings in onion bags:

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4953/SAM_2430 (640x480).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4954/SAM_1392 (640x480).jpg
    This is a small PVC pipe I chopped up...?

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4955/SAM_2520 (640x480).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4956/SAM_2519 (640x480).jpg
    And izeki every where...mechanical...bio....
    The pipe for 100m was USD 25 and I filled 8 crates with it...
    Izeki is USD 90 for 100m X3m wide...And I only used part of it...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Q
    Go and ask him what his estimated return flow like. Then you ask him what is his observed difference in height between his TPR return Chamber free water surface level relative to his pond free water surface level.
    A
    Well he uses 2 pumps in summer PC 36000 and PC 18000, and he pumps with them over a distance of 30cm, through 4" pipes, into a chamber 45 cm above his water surface...so What losses do U think he has with that???? Not too much I think...out 54000l gross maybe he gets 45000l/h IMHO...
    Q
    If you have the same flow as William’s……then…..there is no way you will be able to get the circular flow motion with at least… 0.45m/s average velocity of flow. 100% cannot get.
    A
    I dont think I will need that high velocity...PD said he uses flow of 1800g/h per BD per cell...and he has been doing it for 30 years now....He does not use his money to build his clients ponds...so if it did not work...he was not going to do it...over and over again...
    Q
    No need to pay one…..I have checked. Unfortunately his file is bigger than 200k….so I cannot attach here.
    I personally find his spreadsheet is comprehensive and calculate it systematical similar to the way I have calculated in my thread but his is all automated in Excel with choices.
    A
    Can U email it to me? nnnneeeelllliiii@yahoo.com
    I tried to use that front page...is it the one???

    Hahaha…….70% of these ponds don’t come with a rectangular geometry outlay. In those situation….circular flow is a natural by product. Circular flow in a rectangular pond don’t work efficiently. They just give an illusion that cannot be verified.….takes Tom’s pond as an example. His pond has been designed and built by professionals. Professionals that have been recognized by the koi community. The truth is that it needs a bit more than experience to design and built a better pond.
    A
    Most of the ponds in SA are Rectangular...at list the ones I have seen...
    Q
    Salesman talk only…..
    I have visited his site and read many of his articles and his experiences. He is a good writer…..Can you direct me to the specific koi pond that he has built in Malaysia…… I will visit the owner and get his or her permission to review how good his built is. To me…building a koi pond is no rocket science…..it is how much budget a person wants to spend
    A
    Agreed about the sales man talk...But his ponds work well...The one in Malaysia...he build for the neighbor first...and then when he saw how well it works... he asked TW to build one for him the same (circular flow in rectangular pond...) too.
    Q
    Go and read koi4U forum and you read how bad the pump is performing. Even Happykoi is saying
    It efficiency is 50%. That mean for every kilowatt to throw out you are getting half in return. Bad investment I must say.
    A
    There is another thread on that... He is not talking about the discharge of the pump....he is talking about electricity consumption....that it does not use what is stated on the label...but more. There was a topic on that...They all went to measure the KW of their pumps...and only one was performing really economically.Oase..????
    Q
    The boundary layers with respect to the velocity of flow have been discussed in this thread. It is basically a parabolic velocity profile. If you want a vortex or spiraling effect then you need to have the TPRs at the 2/3 zone from the free water surface and regulate for slower flow by valves as you go deeper. If you want to have a full cylindrical circular flow…then…have it the other way round.
    A
    can U explain this better...what are your considerations... 2/3 water surface U mean at a depth of 50cm in a 150cm deep pond?
    Regulate for slower flow??? U mead reduce the flow in the bottom TPR? I think it should be the other way around...No?
    Q
    Do you think the koi shits are negatively or positively charge ions?
    A
    Not sure...But I dont thing charge plays a big role in large particles...since any attraction forces will be too small to pull a big Koi sheet...gravitational forces will be larger..
    It is the buoyancy that plays role here...
    But if I have to think...knowing that they use activated charcoal in tanks for filtration...and charcoal is - charged ???? then they must be + charged...I know charcoal is an adsorbent..
    Cant remember (+ or -)
    I am not in SA...But they have increased their electricity not so long ago...and they have different tariffs...according to where U stay...and how much U use...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Darling...I am getting confused more and more every day....
    My fish jumped out of the pond today...I was resuscitation it up to now....I finally decided to put an air tube in the mouth with a bit of air coming out of it...no any signs of life yet...
    We had a big storm last night with lots of lightening...I think it was scared...
    There is one thing I observed:
    I had no hiding places in the pond before...I used to lift my fish out of the water just using hands...thats how tame it was...always eating out of my hands...
    A week ago I put a hoop with net in it and water hyacinth in it...
    Now my fish is always hiding...scared...it takes a long time for them to come and eat..grab and run..scared...
    Conclusion:
    GIVE A KOI A PLACE TO HIDE AND IT WILL HIDE!
    I used to rub their tummies...and they liked it...now they dont even come near...
    But at list they have some shade to be under...
    This is the fish that died:
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4957/044 (666x543) (640x522).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4958/282 (640x284).jpg
    I liked it a lot...
    My fish before the hyacinth:



    Hand feeding


    Bottle feeding koi
    www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=105167306241342
    Did I tell U I bought a new camera...forgot?
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4959/044 (666x543) (640x522).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4960/282 (640x284).jpg
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Hi everyone!
    SC vs Vortex
    I have learned how to construct a vortex...But found in several places that SC is also OK..Would like to explore this option too.
    The only thing that worries me about SC is the amount of water needed to be flushed...and I want to put airlifts in the sump on the stand pipe from SC waste..
    For a SC to be effective it needs, large volume proportional to the discharge through it...Found some where that the retention time in SC has to me min 5 min for the solids to settle...?????(not too sure??)
    The question is how to make the waste to collect in small area, for easy flushing...and not to make it too big??? but efficient at the same time.
    I saw the Kent prefilter with plastic strappings.


    Do U think:
    Is it easy to clean?
    Is it effective..
    I have tried to design some type of a SC. The drawings are not too good, since I am using google sketchUp for 2 days only...so please Use your imagination...(Harry U should try it..free,easy and fun!)
    Basically it is a rectangular chamber, sloping towards the 2 BD waste to sump.
    on the right BD pipes come up just above where the slop starts, on the left there is a prefilter...with plastic strappings.
    SC will be 60" deep. Long ???? not sure...yet
    Prefilter will be a box with a solid bottom, with two holes on the bottom, exactly over 2 x 4' pipes connected into one going to sump.The bottom will just sit over the pipes, but they will not be connected...
    front and back wall will be izeki on a frame, sitting on the solid bottom...
    So basically they will form a box full of strappings, across the flow of water, so that in order for the water to reach the pipes, it can only pass through the strapping...
    Between the box of strappings and the wall there is another small chamber (A) with solid bottom, from which, the pipes to the next chamber exit.
    Both izeki/strapping chamber and chamber A,have one solid bottom halve way up from the floor...
    I left the portion under this 2 chambers empty, half way up, so that the BD to waste that are for draining the SC can be flushed too.I will put their stand pipes in the sump...and lift from there the pipe if I want to drain SC.(airlift too)
    I put solid bottom under the 2 prefilter chambers, since I dont want vertical suction upwards, that might disturb sedimentation under it.
    I expect the water will pass through the vertical wall of strappings and enter the empty chamber on its way to the pipes..
    Cleaning:
    twice a week steer shake fluff the strappings, while the 2 BD in the chamber are discharging to waste...and flush also the lower BD (for SC) if needed.
    I have just realized that I would need to put some net/sieve over the izeki BD so that the strappings are not flushed to waste...Will need to think about that..
    I am planning to buy a compressor, for cleaning the filters...so maybe I will put a manifold under so that it can be cleaned with the compressor...
    Then I will need to make a plan for overflow to waste...maybe stand pipes inside, and 2 solid sides insertable...
    The box with izeki/strappings can be lifted out easily too if need be.
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4973/prefilter SC2.jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4974/prefilter SC2a.jpg

    Do U think it will work?
    Do U see any problems with this design? Any advise...
    Any thing better than this?????
    I got the idea from this guys:
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Kent prefilter:
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4977/prefilter SC.jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4979/DSC02346 960X720.jpg
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Hi Neli

    After all the 2 lousy days I had……I took 2 days off and went to buy koi…. Brought all the 9 koi I want. Hehehe…. It was a wonderful experiences……

    Ok……let us get back to the discussions…….

    Quote
    Why do U say his Sc is not working? It takes out lots of dirt when flushing...?????No???? He has a specific problem of lots of pine needles from a tree...and he needs to clean it before it goes in the gulp...and blocks it...I think main reason...Many people have separate pump for skimmer...but many discharge their skimmer directly in the SC too..What is wrong with that??? I dont know...

    Answer
    You can have a small chamber and it will still have some dirt in it. If you accumulate it long enough and when you discharge it and see the dirt flushing out….again we have an illusion that it is working at its best. In reality it is not and the subsequent chambers have a lot of dirt to be cleaned. This is a common problem I have noticed from many koi ponds here and elsewhere.

    If you assume his return discharge via the BD and the weir is 100% efficient as his pumping capacity. What velocity of flow will you get from this upward flow settling tank? In simple term… a shit of certain size will be removed only if its settling velocity exceeds the water up flow velocity. Up flow velocity = flow rate/surface area of tank.

    A well design primary clarifier is expected to remove 90 to 95% of settleable solids, 40 to 60% of the total suspended solids, and 25 to 35% of biological oxygen demand (BOD).

    Waste treatment plant designs generally use a surface-loading rate in the range of 1m3/m2/hr to 2m3/m2/hr depending on the waste they are designing for. Practical range is around 1.7m3/m2/hr.

    You go and check using all his parameters whether he is able to achieve this. I have an example on how this can be calculated here

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/685/constructing-a-koi-pond-please-comment/p6

    If you want to skip the calculations….you PM him and asked him whether if he remove the gulp filtration will he has a problem with his media filtration and maintenance. Hehehe…...

    If his 1st chamber is to treat pine needles from a tress and leaves…..then that is a grit chamber not a settling chamber.
    There is nothing wrong to discharge a portion of the return flow into the settling chamber as long as the discharge flow into it… is in a laminar flow and the approach current generated by the weir downstream into the settling zone of the chamber does not promote disruptive of flow pattern of up flow chamber. In order to prevent this….we have design for a weir loading around 5m3/m.h. Lower the better. Go and see his videos again.

    Quote
    He uses his pond to show the gulp to customers....Thats why all 3 lines have different configurations...Gulp mech. he uses for the fines...IMHO.

    Answer
    If he uses for the fines……then…what I said is correct. In order for him to be able to have generate sufficient fines to demonstrate to his potential customers on the gulp filtration effectiveness….he cannot have designed a settling chamber that is acting like a clarifier. Hehehe…….

    Quote
    I thought the SC might remove some of the larger particles...before they reach the izeki...so maybe I can clean the izeki not ones a week but maybe 3 times a month...????

    Answer
    Hehehe….what is I said if you do that…I guarantee you will have to clean your izeki daily.

    Quote
    sticks and stones for now and izeki here and izeki there....he he he! Nothing here for media...? I am still experimenting with what I have....see what works best...
    But this is what I have tried so far....
    Bricks on top of them,smaller gravel and on top of them..large sand 5+mm. With air manifold under...and compressor for cleaning...
    Plastic shavings in onion bags: And izeki every where...mechanical...bio....

    Answer
    You will have maintenance nightmare and blockage in the natural water flow uniformly through the media and specific water path route will be generated within the media. Anaerobic zones will be created.

    Quote
    Well he uses 2 pumps in summer PC 36000 and PC 18000, and he pumps with them over a distance of 30cm, through 4" pipes, into a chamber 45 cm above his water surface...so What losses do U think he has with that???? Not too much I think...out 54000l gross maybe he gets 45000l/h IMHO...

    Answer
    Are the pumps pumping against a water head where it discharges to the weir? Do you think the pump mechanical impeller is best to allow it to operate in a sleeping way? Does this allow uniform intake? The TPR chamber discharge through a series of piping via gravity flow……the piping will not experience all this energy losses I have discussed with you before? I think you must have been confused into believing that there are no losses if the water flows by gravity. There are losses only using different formula to predict the losses.

    One of the reason for them to experience high running amperage (higher wattage) is because the pumps are experience blockages from the direct discharge into the TPR chamber wall. Newton 3rd law. It creates a resistance to the natural discharge flow.

    Do you know that our air conditioning unit compressor will experience higher running amperage if the refrigerant piping is experiencing some blockages?

    Quote
    I dont think I will need that high velocity...PD said he uses flow of 1800g/h per BD per cell...and he has been doing it for 30 years now....He does not use his money to build his clients ponds...so if it did not work...he was not going to do it...over and over again...

    Answer
    Do you know how he comes to the conclusion that 1800 GPH is best overall? If you are going for 1800GPH….how many BD you require if you are to have a turnover rate of 1hr?

    If I tell you I am a local and international acclaimed photographer and many photographers of the years will love to an opportunity to have a photography competition with me….does this make me the authority to say how a photograph should be captured and composed?

    Quote
    Can U email it to me? nnnneeeelllliiii@yahoo.com
    I tried to use that front page...is it the one???

    Answer
    Check your email. I have just sent to you.

    Quote
    Agreed about the sales man talk...But his ponds work well...The one in Malaysia...he build for the neighbor first...and then when he saw how well it works... he asked TW to build one for him the same (circular flow in rectangular pond...) too.

    Answer
    Very soon my new pond design will be the definitive standard in Malaysia. Hehehe……Even my koi dealer after visiting my pond…..comment my system is so sophisticate and complete…..He has not seen it before. He said….I the pond is done professionally and including the way I measured my water parameters. His negative comment is that I should have built it bigger. Hahaha………

    Quote
    They all went to measure the KW of their pumps...and only one was performing really economically.Oase..????

    Answer
    There are many efficient pumps in the market. You need to explore other makes. Get one at least with a performance chart and it should be sewerage pump and not swimming pool pump. The environment and the conditions this pump that need to withstand is of two different world…..else there is only one type of pump that serve all.

    Quote
    can U explain this better...what are your considerations... 2/3 water surface U mean at a depth of 50cm in a 150cm deep pond?
    Regulate for slower flow??? U mead reduce the flow in the bottom TPR? I think it should be the other way around...No?

    Answer
    Bad explanation on my side. Yes….the bottom TPR should be regulate for roughly double the upper flow as the velocity profile on the boundary layers will be parabolic.

    Quote
    Darling...I am getting confused more and more every day....

    Answer
    You are confused because you have not list down your objectives and identified your perceived problems in a systematic manner and have a systematic method to resolve those identified problems. You rely too much on those authorities which they have not told you the whole truth but nothing but the truth. Engineering is not an exact science but it is all common sense.

    Quote
    My fish jumped out of the pond today...

    Answer
    Very sorry to read about your lost.

    My newly acquire Kohaku 56BU also jump out of the pond in the middle of the night on Thursday after 5 hours of swimming happily in the pond. We were all confident the koi will be alright. I switch of the lights.

    Gosh…..lucky my son saw that fellow laying on the grass in the middle of the night and I quickly pick him up and re-introduce him back into the pond. He turned upside down and not swimming. I quickly place him near to the air diffuser location that has the most air bubbles bubbling up and hold him for nearly 3min or so and suddenly he started to move. I thought bye bye to him. I manage to bring him back to live. The following day….the koi dealer rush to my house and give medication to the wounds. He will need an operation tomorrow to remove a small stone beneath his scale from that unfortunate incident.

    To be continue
    Post edited by harryyew at 2011-11-27 08:07:36 am
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Quote
    Found some where that the retention time in SC has to me min 5 min for the solids to settle...?????(not too sure??)

    Answer
    Not correct.

    Quote
    The question is how to make the waste to collect in small area, for easy flushing...and not to make it too big??? but efficient at the same time.

    Answer
    I will show you how very soon after I have verified it will work as per design.

    Quote
    Do U think it will work?
    Do U see any problems with this design? Any advise...

    Answer
    Unlikely to work as a sedimentation clarifier.
    Check you flow rates as it chamber, the flowrate across the Izeki and plastic shaving and exit thereafter. Check the surface overflow rate.

    Cheers
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Hi Neli

    After all the 2 lousy days I had……I took 2 days off and went to buy koi…. Brought all the 9 koi I want. Hehehe…. It was a wonderful experiences……

    Ok……let us get back to the discussions…….
    I dont want to go to the discussion until I see your new babies....I am impatient to see them....
    Hint: (U have my email....)

    Q
    You can have a small chamber and it will still have some dirt in it. If you accumulate it long enough and when you discharge it and see the dirt flushing out….again we have an illusion that it is working at its best. In reality it is not and the subsequent chambers have a lot of dirt to be cleaned. This is a common problem I have noticed from many koi ponds here and elsewhere.
    A
    U were 1000 % right all along.... I spoke to a friend of mine from SA on FB... Every thing U said is true... he went to William's (Happy Koi) house 2 days ago...and he told me exactly what U said.... Discharge from his PC36000 is actually 14000l/h water is not clear... he wants to change everything... including his own gulp filters (that he sales)....pumps.... He is asking my friend to help him redesign his filtration....he he he!
    Q
    If you assume his return discharge via the BD and the weir is 100% efficient as his pumping capacity. What velocity of flow will you get from this upward flow settling tank? In simple term… a shit of certain size will be removed only if its settling velocity exceeds the water up flow velocity. Up flow velocity = flow rate/surface area of tank.
    A
    Did not know that: Up flow velocity = flow rate/surface area of tank....so the bigger the surface area the larger the chance for particles to settle...and then do we know what velocity minimal size of particles need , in order to settle?????
    Q
    A well design primary clarifier is expected to remove 90 to 95% of settleable solids, 40 to 60% of the total suspended solids, and 25 to 35% of biological oxygen demand (BOD).
    A
    What and why BOD??? Can U explain that one???
    Conclusion: bigger is better...Agreed! ( finally he he he)
    Q
    Waste treatment plant designs generally use a surface-loading rate in the range of 1m3/m2/hr to 2m3/m2/hr depending on the waste they are designing for. Practical range is around 1.7m3/m2/hr.
    A
    What does : 1m3/m2/hr mean???? Dont know that one...flow rate/surface area????

    Q
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/685/constructing-a-koi-pond-please-comment/p6
    A
    I copied that long ago... from U he he he...I file away every thing U say...

    Q
    If his 1st chamber is to treat pine needles from a tress and leaves…..then that is a grit chamber not a settling chamber.
    There is nothing wrong to discharge a portion of the return flow into the settling chamber as long as the discharge flow into it… is in a laminar flow and the approach current generated by the weir downstream into the settling zone of the chamber does not promote disruptive of flow pattern of up flow chamber. In order to prevent this….we have design for a weir loading around 5m3/m.h. Lower the better. Go and see his videos again.
    A
    No argument on any of your comments...1000% right U are!

    Q
    Hehehe….what is I said if you do that…I guarantee you will have to clean your izeki daily.
    A
    I will make a big SC...weather I like it or not.... U are just too convincing Harry! he he he!

    Q
    You will have maintenance nightmare and blockage in the natural water flow uniformly through the media and specific water path route will be generated within the media. Anaerobic zones will be created.
    A
    Why????U will need to convince me... he he he! again....

    Quote
    Well he uses 2 pumps in summer PC 36000 and PC 18000, and he pumps with them over a distance of 30cm, through 4" pipes, into a chamber 45 cm above his water surface...so What losses do U think he has with that???? Not too much I think...out 54000l gross maybe he gets 45000l/h IMHO...

    Q
    Are the pumps pumping against a water head where it discharges to the weir? Do you think the pump mechanical impeller is best to allow it to operate in a sleeping way? Does this allow uniform intake? The TPR chamber discharge through a series of piping via gravity flow……the piping will not experience all this energy losses I have discussed with you before? I think you must have been confused into believing that there are no losses if the water flows by gravity. There are losses only using different formula to predict the losses.
    A
    I did not talk about the gravity flow... I meant The pump discharge...head loss for pumping over 30cm distance and 45cm head....and U were right again... when he talked about wrong info on the pump... he did not mean KW (as I thought) but actual discharge as I was told he gets only 14000l/h...
    Q
    One of the reason for them to experience high running amperage (higher wattage) is because the pumps are experience blockages from the direct discharge into the TPR chamber wall. Newton 3rd law. It creates a resistance to the natural discharge flow.
    A
    OK Did not think about that.... boomerang effect?
    Q
    Do you know that our air conditioning unit compressor will experience higher running amperage if the refrigerant piping is experiencing some blockages?
    A
    Yes... it will need to do more work/with more effort....per hour...

    Q
    Do you know how he comes to the conclusion that 1800 GPH is best overall? If you are going for 1800GPH….how many BD you require if you are to have a turnover rate of 1hr?
    A
    ....No! But i am scared to calculate....but at turn over of ones every 2 hours... I will not be so scared... he he ehe
    Q
    If I tell you I am a local and international acclaimed photographer and many photographers of the years will love to an opportunity to have a photography competition with me….does this make me the authority to say how a photograph should be captured and composed?
    A
    1000% yes!

    Q
    Very soon my new pond design will be the definitive standard in Malaysia. Hehehe……Even my koi dealer after visiting my pond…..comment my system is so sophisticate and complete…..He has not seen it before. He said….I the pond is done professionally and including the way I measured my water parameters. His negative comment is that I should have built it bigger. Hahaha………
    A
    Thats why I asked U to send me a bigger or maybe even simplified diagram for your pond....I downloaded it 3-4 month ago... but can not see much and understand much on it....it is small and faint...and me I am blind... he he he!
    I want to see it well... I have done lots of reading and research...dont want to mess up... This is the second pond in one year I am building... and the first one is a disaster...for Koi... for decoration and gold fish is OK...I did not know much about koi when I built it...
    Q
    There are many efficient pumps in the market. You need to explore other makes. Get one at least with a performance chart and it should be sewerage pump and not swimming pool pump. The environment and the conditions this pump that need to withstand is of two different world…..else there is only one type of pump that serve all.
    A
    Which pipe is that? does sewerage pipe have high head???

    Q
    Bad explanation on my side. Yes….the bottom TPR should be regulate for roughly double the upper flow as the velocity profile on the boundary layers will be parabolic.
    A
    Noted, copied and filed...

    Quote
    Darling...I am getting confused more and more every day....

    Q
    You are confused because you have not list down your objectives and identified your perceived problems in a systematic manner and have a systematic method to resolve those identified problems. You rely too much on those authorities which they have not told you the whole truth but nothing but the truth. Engineering is not an exact science but it is all common sense.
    A
    I know my objectives... U are right some problems are perceived...I am still researching...trying to find out what is a myth and what is a fact...learning... dont be hashon me... i am trying hard...
    Q
    My newly acquire Kohaku 56BU also jump out of the pond in the middle of the night on Thursday after 5 hours of swimming happily in the pond. We were all confident the koi will be alright. I switch of the lights.
    A
    U were lucky...My fish was not very big...but I liked it a lot...
    I took some pictures today with my new camera... This one is dedicated to U...
    If u want some more let me know I post them for U....
    I am just learning and know how to press one button only....
    More are on my FB wall....
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5046/060 (800x595).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5047/077 (744x800).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5048/080 (641x800).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5049/070 (800x600).jpg
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    My favorite is missing...here it is:
    I thought it was missing.. so I will change it for another:
    and this one is nice too:
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5051/023 (754x800).jpg
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-11-27 02:06:17 pm
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    continued:
    Quote
    Found some where that the retention time in SC has to me min 5 min for the solids to settle...?????(not too sure??)

    Answer
    Not correct.
    A
    I figured out how they come with this figure:
    They say it should be 10% of the flow/discharge...
    So if it is 30000l/h SC should be 3000l..calculate retention time... I come with 6 min...thats why they say min 5 min...(if U add inside a prefilter..)

    Q
    The question is how to make the waste to collect in small area, for easy flushing...and not to make it too big??? but efficient at the same time.

    Answer
    I will show you how very soon after I have verified it will work as per design.
    A
    waiting... I am busy trying to finish the nursery..so the pond is not a argent matter yet..

    Q
    Unlikely to work as a sedimentation clarifier.
    Check you flow rates as it chamber, the flowrate across the Izeki and plastic shaving and exit thereafter. Check the surface overflow rate.
    A
    Explain...please...
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Just imagine: My gardener almost gave me a heart attack...He went and removed all the biofilm from my pond...I cried...he cried... I blew a fuse...Imagine that: I called him an idiot...and today I went to apologize....and he cried again...and....and....
    Dont know to laugh or cry...He was so happy he cleaned madam's pond....
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    I tell U Harry...I was totally confused yesterday...and my brains stopped working...had just too much on my plate...my workers drive me crazy..so dont get too shocked by my posts..
    I have started talking to U even when I am not on the internet....Hope U can hear me...he he he!
    I look at some thing...and go: What do U think about this one Harry????
    The biggest confusion is caused by so much dubious info on the net... I have been asking 2-3 different places the same thing...to cross reference... and sieve the crap...Unless I understand it...then I am cool with it...
    It is so easy to jump to conclusions...make wrong assumptions...mess up...listen to myth and fiction...
    So dont worry if some time I seem to need convincing...burned my fingers...and my nature is such...that I need to understand things...then I will implement them better and if modifications are needed I will do them with sense...
    Hope your day is good today...Here is raining non stop...Greet all the family from me...
    And please let me know how U like my first photos...he he he (one button photos)
  • harryyewharryyew November 2011
    Posts: 396
    Hi Neli

    Good day to you.

    Sorry for the late reply. Not bad at all for first photos…especially done with the one button method.

    I have been busy trying to jump start my bio filter. Carrying out various tests to ascertain the important water parameters are within the safe level and the bio filter is up to speed. Being busy reading all the testing procedures and request supplier to deliver more reagents. A total of 5 days to establish the ammonia and nitrite cycle.

    These are the readings I took this evening…..

    Temperature 29 deg C
    DO 6.95mg/l
    Salinity 8.5ppt
    pH 8.05
    Alkalinity value 70
    NH3 0.06mg/l
    NH4 0.06mg/l
    NH3-N 0.05mg/l
    NO2-N 0.073mg/l
    NO2 0.239mg/l
    NaNO2 0.358mg/l
    NO3-N 1.5mg/l
    NO3 6.6mg/l
    PO4 0.58mg/l
    P 0.19mg/l
    P2O5 0.43mg/l

    I have made a bad decision. I should have cycle my bio filter by feeding ammonia chemically and save the koi from hardships and bad water to complete the nitrification cycle.

    Just now I feed the koi with a bit more food. There are 2 more koi coming this Friday. One big Ogon and one Kindai Showa. Hehehe…..

    Tomorrow morning I will check again the water parameters.

    Ok…let me try to answers some of your questions raised.

    Quote:
    I dont want to go to the discussion until I see your new babies....I am impatient to see them....

    Answer
    Hahaha……Patient my dear. I will show you all my koi and every parts of the pond. 1st I must make sure everything is in order before presenting. The koi dealer has asked permission to take the koi pics and to measured every koi both as a record and to present me with an album of the koi I have purchased. May be the koi I have purchased have potential…..hahaha…..

    hmmm….I will see how they take the pics and may be I will learn some trick from them.

    Quote
    Did not know that: Up flow velocity = flow rate/surface area of tank....so the bigger the surface area the larger the chance for particles to settle...and then do we know what velocity minimal size of particles need , in order to settle?????

    Answer
    We can work out the particle terminal velocity and all those drag and viscosity forces….but some smart alex has provided 2 important criteria to meet, namely the surface loading rate and the weir loading rate. These values to be observed are depicted in my earlier posts.

    Settling chamber can consist of a primary and secondary chambers or just one settling to act as both. The settling chamber here is basically to hold the pond recirculation water in quiescent to permit particulate solids to [underline begin] settle out of suspension through gravity settling. [underline end].

    When design the settling chamber ones needs to prevent short-circuiting and hydraulic disturbances in the chamber….flow enters a baffle to dissipate inlet velocity and an overflow weir before the next chamber of sufficient length to provide a uniform flow. If you anticipate floating materials to be present and to prevent from discharging with the water overflow…you can place a baffle in front of the weir.

    You can design the bottom of the settling chamber and equipped it with hydraulic pickup pipes for rapid sludge discharge.

    Criteria for sizing settling chambers are overflow rate (surface settling rate), chamber depth and detention time. Surface overflow rate is defined as the average hourly overflow divided by the surface area of the chamber…expressed as

    V=Q/A Where….

    V= Overflow rate (surface settling rate), m3/m2/hr
    Q= Hourly flow, m3/hr
    A= total surface are of the chamber, m2

    Detention time is computed by dividing chamber volume by flow from the pond BD.

    T=60*V/Q Where…..
    T= Detention in minutes
    V= Chamber volume, m3
    Q= Flow from pond via BD into settling chamber, m3/hr

    Particles with a settling velocity greater than the Overflow rate (Q/A) are removed while lighter particles, with settling velocities less than the overflow are carried over into the next chamber.

    Now….can you understand why….PW recommend having the 18” BD? Basically to slow the flow entering the chamber and ensuring the overflow rate is kept to the design turnover desire.

    Quote
    What and why BOD??? Can U explain that one???

    Answer
    Short version: BOD is by definition the quatity of oxygen utilized by a mixed population of microorganisms in the aerobic oxidation (i..e organic matter in a sample of the waste water) at temperature 20 deg C. BOD is a commonly used parameter to define the strength of the waste water. It basically is measuring the waste loading to your biological filtration and evaluating the efficiency of your overall treatment system. A BOD test is used to determine the relative oxygen requirements of treated waste water.

    When the big solids and settle able suspension solids are removed in a properly design settling chamber….some smart alex has determined that it can removes 25 to 35% of biological oxygen demand (BOD).

    Quote
    I will make a big SC...whether I like it or not....

    Answer
    Cannot just make it big big…..then it is considered over design. We should it with a factor of safety based on the reliability of our input data.

    Quote
    Q
    You will have maintenance nightmare and blockage in the natural water flow uniformly through the media and specific water path route will be generated within the media. Anaerobic zones will be created.
    A
    Why????U will need to convince me... he he he! again....

    Answer
    Ok. Hahaha…..….may be you would like to relate this specific channels formed like those found in sand filtering chamber where they don’t have air compressor or the backwash pressure is low to dislodge the sludge accumulated in the voids of the media.

    Quote
    Q
    If I tell you I am a local and international acclaimed photographer and many photographers of the years would love to have an opportunity to have a photography competition with me….does this make me the authority to say how a photograph should be captured and composed?
    A
    1000% yes!

    Answer
    Hahaha….NO. I am not the authority…. As the taste of an apple lies in the pallets of the tongue. Every pond designs are unique in many ways. At the end of the day….the water parameters must meet recognized standards and the fish are healthy. Some people actually like to do daily maintenance while some may like it to be fully automated. My koi dealer representative was talking with me the other day; he said his boss asked him to check with me whether I would like to engage maintenance team on a regular basis to service my pond. The koi dealer representative said to his boss….No need one…his system required minimum manual maintenance as he can see it was near to full automation. Hahaha………..

    Quote
    Thats why I asked U to send me a bigger or maybe even simplified diagram for your pond....I downloaded it 3-4 month ago... but can not see much and understand much on it....it is small and faint...and me I am blind... he he he!
    I want to see it well... I have done lots of reading and research...dont want to mess up... This is the second pond in one year I am building... and the first one is a disaster...for Koi... for decoration and gold fish is OK...I did not know much about koi when I built it...

    Answer
    Ok. I have made some modification along the way but did not update my construction drawings. Will sent to you.

    Quote
    I took some pictures today with my new camera... This one is dedicated to U...

    Answer
    Not bad……with the press one button only.
    I will share with you some of my close up and macro pics at the end of this post.

    Quote
    I figured out how they come with this figure:
    They say it should be 10% of the flow/discharge...

    Answer
    Hahaha….see above in this post how it should be determined.

    Quote
    Explain...please...

    Answer
    On the settling tank….you checks what I have said above.
    There are many type of media you can use. Not necessary must be J-mats. However….you need to check the media filtration rate and the size of the chamber to house it. If you like the Izeki and the plastic shavings strapping as particulate screen…then you need to check the discharge flow across it using Darcy’s formula Q=k(h/L)A, m3/s, where

    Q= discharge through the Izeki, m3/s
    K= Permeability coefficient, m/s
    H = head, m
    L = overall thickness of the Izeki, m
    A= surface of the Izeki, m2

    For K…say takes as 1 to the power of minus 2 (m/s).

    Check you Q across these 2 media.

    Your BD discharge velocity will be big in this case and will most probably cause some hydraulic pattern here. You need to have a laminar flow. Steady as it flows. You need a baffle plate to dissipate the entry velocity and spread it out. Unless you have a drawdown in your next chamber to this settling chamber….the bulk of your flow will actually flowing over the partition wall between the settling tank and the next chamber. The BD bed to sump for flushing need to be a hopper configuration else sludge accumulating down there cannot be flush out proper leading to anaerobic condition in sludge digestion.

    This type of sedimentation tank is a horizontal configuration. My explanations above is for an upflow settling tank. Same principle and you calculate as flow coming as 90 deg counterclockwise. The exit 2 nos of pipe need to be increase as the velocity of flow will be reduced….thus you need bigger cross sectional area to maintain flow.

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5091/flower%203.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5092/F6.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5093/M-5.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5094/M-1.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5095/M-7.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5100/M-8.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5096/MV-17.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5097/M-10.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5098/MV-28.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5099/MV-26.jpg

    Cheers
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Love your pictures....U have infected me with a new disease....bad boy!!!!
    It is such a nice hobby!
    One more picture for U:
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5101/006 (800x697).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5102/062 (800x511).jpg
  • NeliNeli November 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    First my news...Going to plan B.
    I removed all the compost from the pond I wanted to revamp...there are big cracks,,, not worth revamping...
    Plan B is a brand new pond...
    Had a contractor here today...he will give me a quote for a pond in 2 days....8x4x1.7m...with window...
    Very formal rectangular...Want to get some more quotes...but he is ready to start on monday...
    He is a pool builder....so I told him I will design it and do all the pipe work my self...before he puts the concrete..
    I am in a panic mode now...want to build the pond...fast....and no plan yet...tried but not sure of any thing yet...
    My biggest dilemma is: raceway (stream flow) or circular flow....
    I want the one that can remove the debris in the most energy efficient manner: with less pump power...
    Advise please!!!!!! Most urgently! Want to hear your opinion on it!
    The rest I will answer tomorrow...
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396
    Hi Neli

    Quote
    My biggest dilemma is: raceway (stream flow) or circular flow....
    I want the one that can remove the debris in the most energy efficient manner: with less pump power...
    Advise please!!!!!! Most urgently! Want to hear your opinion on it!

    Answer
    Have you decide your prefer system yet?
    For me....if given that pond size you are currently under consideration....I would design for a plug flow system instead of the stream flow or circular flow.

    Removing poo poo in the main pond is something I don't have 1st hand experience. If we are referring to pumping power to drive the flow...then my answer will be plug flow.

    How many koi you intent you keep in this pond?

    Cheers
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Hi Harry,
    I have been so busy....Lots to do...
    Q
    Have you decide your prefer system yet?
    A
    So far I am leaning towards circular flow...for the reason that I have seen many ponds with it...that work well with gentle pump discharge....and it is old and proven design...
    Q
    For me....if given that pond size you are currently under consideration....I would design for a plug flow system instead of the stream flow or circular flow.
    A
    What is the difference between plug flow and raceway(stream flow)?
    I dont even know this plug flow pond...for me to start designing and researching it...it will take long time...never seen a pond like that...
    Q
    Removing poo poo in the main pond is something I don't have 1st hand experience. If we are referring to pumping power to drive the flow...then my answer will be plug flow.
    A
    does plug flow need less velocity in pond to keep it clean?
    Q
    How many koi you intent you keep in this pond?
    A
    I count on one Koi per 1000l...but U never know I might have some babies...that I will not be able to kill...
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-12-02 10:24:44 am
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    I want to order my koi from Japan...and get them in May...at the show in SA. By then maybe my pond will be ready and cycled...????
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Now I will try to answer your previous post...
    …..

    Temperature 29 deg C
    DO 6.95mg/l
    Salinity 8.5ppt
    pH 8.05
    Alkalinity value 70
    NH3 0.06mg/l
    NH4 0.06mg/l
    NH3-N 0.05mg/l
    NO2-N 0.073mg/l
    NO2 0.239mg/l
    NaNO2 0.358mg/l
    NO3-N 1.5mg/l
    NO3 6.6mg/l
    PO4 0.58mg/l
    P 0.19mg/l
    P2O5 0.43mg/l
    A
    How do U manage to get some of this readings... I am surprised....
    Q
    I have made a bad decision. I should have cycle my bio filter by feeding ammonia chemically and save the koi from hardships and bad water to complete the nitrification cycle.
    A
    Try adding some yogurt in your filter...it helps a lot/...I was thought that by a judge/veteran breeder...The Japanese put it in the food of their special koi. Me too...

    Q
    Just now I feed the koi with a bit more food. There are 2 more koi coming this Friday. One big Ogon and one Kindai Showa. Hehehe…..
    A
    That sounds exiting...but U are too secretive over your pond and fish...????

    Q
    Hahaha……Patient my dear. I will show you all my koi and every parts of the pond. 1st I must make sure everything is in order before presenting. The koi dealer has asked permission to take the koi pics and to measured every koi both as a record and to present me with an album of the koi I have purchased. May be the koi I have purchased have potential…..hahaha…..
    A
    I hope so....But dealers should not be trusted always....

    Q
    You can design the bottom of the settling chamber and equipped it with hydraulic pickup pipes for rapid sludge discharge.
    A
    What do U mean? Waste pipe to sump?...airlifts?

    Q
    Now….can you understand why….PW recommend having the 18” BD? Basically to slow the flow entering the chamber and ensuring the overflow rate is kept to the design turnover desire.
    A
    This one I dont get...I think why he puts larger BD lead is because the BD pumps actively from a very short distance away from it and he is trying to increase that distance...
    How does the flow depend on the diameter of the BD top...it will depend on the pumping rate..No?...Maybe different size BD top will have different velocity up to the bd (pond ) inlet but within the pipe and discharge point it will be the same....since the same volume per minute will exit/pass through the pipe???
    Quote
    What and why BOD??? Can U explain that one???

    Answer
    Short version: BOD is by definition the quatity of oxygen utilized by a mixed population of microorganisms in the aerobic oxidation (i..e organic matter in a sample of the waste water) at temperature 20 deg C. BOD is a commonly used parameter to define the strength of the waste water. It basically is measuring the waste loading to your biological filtration and evaluating the efficiency of your overall treatment system. A BOD test is used to determine the relative oxygen requirements of treated waste water.

    Q
    Cannot just make it big big…..then it is considered over design. We should it with a factor of safety based on the reliability of our input data.
    A
    The rule of thumb I new is that SC should be 10%...now can U tell me how much pump power (l/H) I will need for the new pond...and how big the SC should be? It will be 1m deep 75cm wide and ????long...Or vortex option (i think that will be better) tell me dimensions for it?


    Q
    Ok. Hahaha…..….may be you would like to relate this specific channels formed like those found in sand filtering chamber where they don’t have air compressor or the backwash pressure is low to dislodge the sludge accumulated in the voids of the media.
    I will have automated cleaning every where with a compressor...

    Q
    My koi dealer representative was talking with me the other day; he said his boss asked him to check with me whether I would like to engage maintenance team on a regular basis to service my pond. The koi dealer representative said to his boss….No need one…his system required minimum manual maintenance as he can see it was near to full automation. Hahaha………..
    A
    That is very very good! How did U do that?

    Q. Will sent to you.
    A
    I did not get any emails from U yet...

    Q

    I will share with you some of my close up and macro pics at the end of this post.
    A
    I dont know how U achieve that unfocused back ground...looks like the flower is in front of a solid color back ground while the object is in focus...it looks nice!

    Q
    On the settling tank….you checks what I have said above.
    There are many type of media you can use. Not necessary must be J-mats. However….you need to check the media filtration rate and the size of the chamber to house it. If you like the Izeki and the plastic shavings strapping as particulate screen…then you need to check the discharge flow across it using Darcy’s formula Q=k(h/L)A, m3/s, where

    Q= discharge through the Izeki, m3/s
    K= Permeability coefficient, m/s
    H = head, m
    L = overall thickness of the Izeki, m
    A= surface of the Izeki, m2

    For K…say takes as 1 to the power of minus 2 (m/s).

    Check you Q across these 2 media.
    A
    In my current filter chamber 3m long...full with izeki I have 2cm draw down...in the next chamber where the plastic shavings are... I have around 4cm draw down at the end of the filter...after 3 long chambers...grave/izeki/shavings...
    Q

    Your BD discharge velocity will be big in this case and will most probably cause some hydraulic pattern here. You need to have a laminar flow. Steady as it flows. You need a baffle plate to dissipate the entry velocity and spread it out.
    Qa
    Unless you have a drawdown in your next chamber to this settling chamber….the bulk of your flow will actually flowing over the partition wall between the settling tank and the next chamber.
    A
    I dont get this one or maybe i dont understand what U are saying....
    How will it flow over from SC to next chamber...if they are the same height...where is the water going to come for it to overflow??? It is the same height with the pond???No?
    Unless there is a draw down...there will be no flow between the 2 chambers...No? they are the same level with the pond...????
    Q
    The BD bed to sump for flushing need to be a hopper configuration else sludge accumulating down there cannot be flush out proper leading to anaerobic condition in sludge digestion.
    A
    Give me an explanation for dummies...dont get this...What is hopper configuration?
    Do U mean 2 pipe BD, one going to sump?
    Q
    This type of sedimentation tank is a horizontal configuration. My explanations above is for an upflow settling tank. Same principle and you calculate as flow coming as 90 deg counterclockwise.
    The exit 2 nos of pipe need to be increase as the velocity of flow will be reduced….thus you need bigger cross sectional area to maintain flow.
    A
    dont understand the last 2 lines...
    do U mean I mean to increase the cross sectional area of the flow between chambers, by adding more pipes between them?
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396
    Hi Neli

    Good day to you.

    Quote
    So far I am leaning towards circular flow...for the reason that I have seen many ponds with it...that work well with gentle pump discharge....and it is old and proven design...

    Answer
    Ok. Then design for a circular flow.

    Quote
    What is the difference between plug flow and raceway(stream flow)?
    I dont even know this plug flow pond...for me to start designing and researching it...it will take long time...never seen a pond like that...

    Answer
    Ok. We will skip the plug flow. When I do my pond extension in the future, I will share with you have it is done and what are the characteristics that goes with it.

    Quote
    I count on one Koi per 1000l...but U never know I might have some babies...that I will not be able to kill...

    Answer
    When I started to plan my pond……I use the same rule of thumb….one koi per 1000liters. After I introduced a 71cm Orgon into the pond relative to the other koi measuring average 56cm….I realized the rule of thumb is not so appropriate if all my balance 8 koi eventually reached the size around 70cm to 80cm. They will still be able to swim in the pond but the sensory aesthetic appeal to view the koi will be imposing. IMHO planning for 1 koi for 2000 liters is a better consideration as we all would eventually expect our koi to grow beyond the 70cm and more.

    Quote
    I want to order my koi from Japan...and get them in May...at the show in SA. By then maybe my pond will be ready and cycled...????

    Answer
    For a concrete pond and with proper testing and commissioning…..a realistic plan is 6 months.

    Quote
    How do U manage to get some of this readings... I am surprised....

    Answer
    May I know which part of the readings you are surprised……

    Quote
    What do U mean? Waste pipe to sump?...airlifts?

    Answer
    Yes, waste pipe to sump by using the difference in the water level between the chamber and the invert of the discharged pipe. General airlifting will only gives a visual impression it is removing the sludge. In reality…unless the air introduced is powerful…..it cannot removal the sludge proper.

    Quote
    This one I dont get...I think why he puts larger BD lead is because the BD pumps actively from a very short distance away from it and he is trying to increase that distance...
    How does the flow depend on the diameter of the BD top...it will depend on the pumping rate..No?...Maybe different size BD top will have different velocity up to the bd (pond ) inlet but within the pipe and discharge point it will be the same....since the same volume per minute will exit/pass through the pipe???

    Answer
    We skip this. I think we are talking different thing. It is not important for time being.

    Quote
    The rule of thumb I new is that SC should be 10%...now can U tell me how much pump power (l/H) I will need for the new pond...and how big the SC should be? It will be 1m deep 75cm wide and ????long...Or vortex option (i think that will be better) tell me dimensions for it?

    Answer
    The 10% rule of thumb is wrong. How big your pump power required is mainly decided by the following

    1) Pump power efficiency
    2) The turnover rate you required. (This has relation to your filtration system requirements, the velocity of the flow in the BD and at the sedimentation chamber)
    3) Energy losses as water travel through the system piping network
    4) Pumping elevation height to say a sand filter, waterfall etc.
    5) Any particular circular flow velocity you want to generate within the main pond.
    6) Having some back pressure in the piping system
    7) Future expansion plan…eg a bakki shower acting as a cooling tower in summer?

    How big the Sc will be depends on whether you want a primary settling chamber and follow by a secondary chamber.

    Criteria for sizing settling chambers are overflow rate (surface settling rate), chamber depth and detention time. Surface overflow rate is defined as the average hourly overflow divided by the surface area of the chamber…expressed as

    V=Q/A Where….

    V= Overflow rate (surface settling rate), m3/m2/hr
    Q= Hourly flow, m3/hr
    A= total surface are of the chamber, m2

    Detention time is computed by dividing chamber volume by flow from the pond BD.

    T=60*V/Q Where…..
    T= Detention in minutes
    V= Chamber volume, m3
    Q= Flow from pond via BD into settling chamber, m3/hr

    Particles with a settling velocity greater than the Overflow rate (Q/A) are removed while lighter particles, with settling velocities less than the overflow are carried over into the next chamber.

    I have highlighted in my earlier post…..there are 2 important criteria to meet in designing the settling chamber, namely the surface loading rate and the weir loading rate. A surface-loading rate in the range of 1m3/m2/hr to 2m3/m2/hr depending on the waste they are designing for. Practical range is around 1.7m3/m2/hr. Since you have the space you design for say 1.2m3/m2/hr. For weir loading around 5m3/m.h. Lower the better. Gist is to get laminar flow here.

    Next week I will open up my 1st chamber and see how effective the pipe settlers are performing. From my cursory observation from the top of a filter screen pad place over the opening…they appear to be clean. I will feedback on my finding to you accordingly.

    Quote
    I dont get this one or maybe i dont understand what U are saying....
    How will it flow over from SC to next chamber...if they are the same height...where is the water going to come for it to overflow??? It is the same height with the pond???No?
    Unless there is a draw down...there will be no flow between the 2 chambers...No? they are the same level with the pond...????

    Answer
    When I look at you drawing, your izeki and plastic shaving is going to restrict the natural flow causing the water level to build up at the settling chamber. Your pond water level will be slightly higher than the settling chamber water level in a proper design flow. Try to relate INPUT > OUTPUT…what happen? Hehehe………

    Quote
    What is hopper configuration?

    Answer
    A hopper in form of rectangular based pyramid frustum

    Quote
    dont understand the last 2 lines...
    do U mean I mean to increase the cross sectional area of the flow between chambers, by adding more pipes between them?

    Answer
    Yes…to maintain discharge. Remember “Continuity Equation”.

    Cheers
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Hi Harry!

    Good day to you.

    Q
    May I know which part of the readings you are surprised……
    This ones:
    DO 6.95mg/l
    Alkalinity value 70
    PO4 0.58mg/l
    P 0.19mg/l
    P2O5 0.43mg/l
    Q
    Next week I will open up my 1st chamber and see how effective the pipe settlers are performing. From my cursory observation from the top of a filter screen pad place over the opening…they appear to be clean. I will feedback on my finding to you accordingly.
    A
    Waiting impatiently!

    Q
    When I look at you drawing, your izeki and plastic shaving is going to restrict the natural flow causing the water level to build up at the settling chamber. Your pond water level will be slightly higher than the settling chamber water level in a proper design flow. Try to relate INPUT > OUTPUT…what happen? Hehehe………
    A
    Got it!

    I took some pictures for U today:
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5162/027%20(640x607).jpg
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5163/041%20(493x640).jpg
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5164/042%20(640x445).jpg
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5165/043%20(640x631).jpg
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-12-07 08:08:25 am
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396
    hmmm

    Quote
    This ones:
    DO 6.95mg/l
    Alkalinity value 70
    PO4 0.58mg/l
    P 0.19mg/l
    P2O5 0.43mg/l

    Answer
    May I know why?


    Thank you for the photos. Here are some local safari pics I took for your viewing.....hehehe

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5166/Z-1%20resize.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5169/Z-20.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5170/Z-3.jpg

    Cheers

  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Waw!
    Love the zebras! How did U do that? B&W?
    The tiger is good too...
    The lion is just too skinny! He he he!
    How long did U wait for him to open his mouth?
    The measurements U took are hard to get...and not common...
    I tried DO...it was a digital meter...it took different measurements each time...not very accurate.
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Harry I have babies!
    Only 8...never saw the fish spawn...
    I am so happy!
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5172/071 (450x640).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5173/064 (640x515).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5174/080 (640x404).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5175/094 (640x619).jpg
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396
    Congratulation!!!

    Wah!!! Immediately isolate off the area. Some more with red marking posts and net.

    There are numerous ways to make a B&W. You can change a setting in your Sony camera menu to take a black and white photo. They have a built-in color de-saturation method that removes the color information after the camera takes the picture. This way is the simplest and does not need post processing skill. The downside of this conversion method lack contrast and dynamic range…making the pic looks washed out or flat.
    You can also use a B&W conversion software to do it.

    Yes…the local safari here needs more funding to feed the animals. Did not have to wait too long….I asked my friend to make funny face at him. Hahaha….

    I see…I got myself a professional grade testing equipment. It comes with many probes to attach to the equipment and I calibrated it on site to get accuracy. It comes with an auto stabilizer. It also comes with software for transferring equipment log data to computer. Luckily the equipment distributor sends their representatives to brief and demonstrate to me how to calibrate and use. Still reading the manual. Hahaha…….

    Cheers

  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    He he he!
    Q
    Yes…the local safari here needs more funding to feed the animals. Did not have to wait too long….I asked my friend to make funny face at him. Hahaha….
    A
    U are telling lies! U are the one that was making faces...or the lion felt sorry for U waiting so long...or maybe he did not like U and wanted to chase U away! He he he!Knotty boy!
    Got U!
    I separated the babies...the moment I saw them...Now imagine what task it was to catch them in my pond....and I have a nasty habit of falling in the pond, just too often...by now my Koi think I am a Koi too...
    Posting for U the link again:http://www.koiquest.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10966
    Yume Koi Mike is a well known dealer...can it be true what he says? I am not very very very sure....
    I think I know the test equipment U have...forgot the name but know it...it is good.
    Dont laugh...it was emergency...so I put a left over curtain material in the pond...for the babies.
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    I think this is the papa Showa and the mama Chagoi of the babies:
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396
    Good day Neli

    Quote
    Waiting impatiently!

    Answer
    Here are some pics I took on 11.12.2011 for you to see. hehehe....

    pic 1 (J mat that is placed directly above the tube settlers.
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5214/IMG_0562.JPG

    pic 2 (J mat taken out from the 1st chamber before cleaning)
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5213/IMG_0566.JPG

    pic 3 (condition of the tube settlers as in the 1st chamber)
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5212/IMG_0567.JPG

    How? hehehehe.....

    Cheers
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Looks good Hary!
    Thanks for the pictures!
    I guess. the water goes up trough the Jmats?
    How long are your pipes?
    My question is this:
    sins a BD pipe can clog and U need lots of flow through it, The way I see this pipes, they will have much less flow...Will they not fill with sediment? How do U keep them clean?
    Some are up and some are down looking...reason for that?
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396
    About 580mm in length slope at 60 deg to the horizontal plane.

    They will not be filled up sediment to the extent of choking up the tube settlers. It is about a month and that is the lot of debris I can visually record.

    I have a hydraulic pipe connected to an electrical driven butterfly valve which I can program when to flush at the day and time I want.

    The rows of tubes are arranged alternate for better water flow distribution.

    Cheers
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Thanks Harry...It is a bit hard for me to understand how it works, (The principle) and where the dirt is collected....Can U explain it in a simple language?
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396
    Hi Neli

    Please see this link below for its principle and how it is designed.
    http://www.brentwoodprocess.com/tubesettlersystems.html

    Cheers
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    OK! Thanks...This design is different from the ones I fave seen.. Dont U think that some time even after flushing dirt remains on the bottom...and if the BD's are under the tube settler how will U reach there to clean it?
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396

    Sure....I suspect there will be some fines remain at the corner or even at the surface of the chamber bed. Just like those fines in the main pond. That is why I highlighted to you earlier in my post to design for a hopper bottom if you intent to have an up-flow settling chamber configuration.

    If you examine the pics again, you will find that the tube settlers are all inserted in row by row into the chamber. They are within reach from the ground level and removal will be in the reverse only. For the bottom baffling plate (I used Versicell) I have it tied to a simple PVC rack and nylon string both end of the rack (blue colour in the pic) to the top which will allow me to lift it up easily and expose the whole chamber to clean out the chamber to my full satisfaction. hehehe........

    May be in 2 months times I will open it up to examine it.

    Cheers
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Good U thought of that!
    It is raining here...the rain season started...I want to start excavating...but stilll need to finish the nursery...Dont know what to do first...I am scared it might collapse if too much rain comes....Trying to make a plan....I have not decided on the method of building yet too...
    I wanted to do it with concrete blocks but the contractor told me that they leak....and is better to pack it like gunite...Maybe I do first with blocks and then reinforce it and pack a thick layer of concrete and plaster on the walls after that...What do U think?
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396
    Good day Neli

    Concrete blocks or brick works structure are not used as water retaining structure especially to the water depth you are currently under consideration. Yes....you need reinforcement to take tension. Concrete is good for compression only.

    I have seen many people used brickworks and cement sand mortar plastered to finish off the pond. The problem with leakages and crack lines forming will normally come later...about a year or two especially those that have a weak foundation for their brickwork. If your ground is clayey then....you will have shrinkage and swelling of the ground which will translate to movement and induce stresses to the rigid concrete blocks. That is why those experience people will fiberglass the pond. If the depth of the pond relative to ground exceed 1.2m.....concrete blocks is out of the equation. Forget it. No way. You will regret.

    I did mine with brickwork as the external formwork and timber formwork internally strutted. No tie rods used. In your case....it can be quite a construction challenge to strut the internal formwork. If your place there have the proper tie rod system to hold the vertical formwork in temporary positiion.....then constructing a vertical wall will be easy. If you look at Tom's pond....he shotcrete it but workmanship is not that good. If your proposed contractor has the shotcrete or gunite equipment and has a skilled nozzleman (repeat a skilled nozzleman) then...... it is a good option. You better check with him whether he is proposing for the dry mix or wet mix type.

    If using shotcrete or gunite....no need the concrete block already.

    Does your contractor has an engineer to design the reinforcement sizes and spacing for you? If not you can used mine....it is slightly overkill. hehehe.....

    You too need to consider what type of water proofing you are going to specify. Check what is available there and if you need review please let us all know.

    Cheers
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Thanks Darling...Here every thing is very primitive...They dont have the machines for shotcrate...and pack the swimming pools by hand...after reinforcing the walls and the bottom...they do it in one day....nothing to water proof here...only bitumen paint like...
    But some one told me that they make solid concrete blocks at a company here...
    So that is another option....
    i know what U mean by blocks cracking...My filter is 1.2m above ground....cracked after 3 month...hope it will not crack any more...
    the pond will be 60-80 cm above ground...the rest under...The soil is good...lots of crushed stones in it naturally...Laterite...no clay.
    I am so scared of the pond cracking...I will have to do a overkill too with the reinforcement...
    I thought of using the concrete blocks as shattering...sort of...a permanent one...and add to the strength...then reinforce it inside and then they pack the gunite/shotcrete by hand...
    Then a plaster and bitumen...He he he!
    What do U think about that?
    Look at this pictures of pond builds....and tell me what U think...



    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5282/drain pipe and insulation to waste (342x453).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5283/pipe through wall (400x223).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5284/vvvvv.JPG
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5285/showing tpr in wall (449x238).jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5286/pond 004.JPG
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Some more:
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5287/pond 005.JPG
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5288/pond 006.JPG
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    What do U say, I build it with blocks, with the reinforcement between the blocks and the soil, put some boards above ground , and poor concrete between the soil and the blocks...and plaster it on the inside...? Will that be strong enough? Will it leak...Remember I have only bitumen here...
    I put bitumen in the filter and it leaks but just a bit....but that is from the cracks....The blocks are hollow...just plaster on top 2cm...
    If I chisel the top of my filter and put a collar with steel inside can it help not to crack in the future?
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-12-19 12:27:22 am
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    I have another big problem Harry...Maybe U can think of a solution...My filter overflow 3 times now and I find my pond half empty in the morning...Tried to figure out what is the problem....hard to figure but this is the conclusion I came up with:
    First I thought I have too much friction in the tpr and the water cant come out of the filter...
    But it is not that. I have from the filter 4" pipes going all around the pond with a Y and reducer for each (5) TPR...2"
    Some of my tpr dont even have enough water coming out of them...so it can not be that...
    Then I thought I have a blockage somewhere... ruled that out, since if I run it on by pass water passes nicely through the pipes...I even tried to put roads inside to unblock it...but I think it is not that...
    The only think I can think of is my inlet at the end of filter...it is a 4" high pipe...the water comes in and since the pipe it is not all full with water...large bubles of air go up that pipe...and I think they prevent the flow from being normal...like the air occupy some space inside the pipe and dont allow the water to flow free...
    Can that be the problem?
    And if U think it is what can I do?
    Some pics so U get better idea:
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5289/004 (640x480).jpg
    here is the pipe
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5290/SAM_2429 (640x480).jpg
    There are 2 lines of 4" pipes going all around the pond:
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5291/SAM_2432 (640x480).jpg
    This is the outlet from the filter:
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5292/SAM_2410 (640x480).jpg
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-12-19 12:47:42 am
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    This are the pipes going around
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5293/SAM_2281 (640x480).jpg
    It overflows from the first chamber...it discharges from the last chamber...
    I have a draw down in the last chamber 4cm.
    This is the water overflowing...I opened little bit one of my by pass as a temporary solution and it is not overflowing now...but my bakki is not working as it should...less flow...
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5294/SAM_2416 (640x480).jpg
    This is how my TPR are connected:

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/5295/SAM_2375 (640x480).jpg
    Hope this will give U an idea...
    I think I should try first to eliminate the air coming up the pipe...but dont know what and how to do it...if that does not work...then it is a blokage
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396
    Hahaha….

    Quote
    Here every thing is very primitive...They dont have the machines for shotcrate...and pack the swimming pools by hand...after reinforcing the walls and the bottom...they do it in one day....nothing to water proof here...only bitumen paint like...

    Answer
    Then……shotcrete method can go bye bye. Bitumen paint coated to surfaces in contact with earth is mainly used to a protective coating with aggressive ground condition. They are not water proofing material.

    Quote
    But some one told me that they make solid concrete blocks at a company here...
    So that is another option....

    Answer
    Over in my country…..we used concrete blocks and brick works as an infill. They are normally not design as a structural element.

    Quote
    i know what U mean by blocks cracking...My filter is 1.2m above ground....cracked after 3 month...hope it will not crack any more...

    Answer
    Braced yourself…it will crack again. Hehehe……No joke. It will. For a start the crack you have repaired is not done without using non shrink cement….so there is a fine crack present there. Cement sand mortar shrink as it set. It is only a matter of time beyond it gives way again.

    Quote
    the pond will be 60-80 cm above ground...the rest under...The soil is good...lots of crushed stones in it naturally...Laterite...no clay.

    Answer
    Hmm…. That is a good piece of news. Does your proposed contractor has a monkey jumper (compactor) to compact the earth after excavation? If don’t have….the changes of it settling over time is there.

    If they don’t have a compactor….this is what you can get them to do…in the primitive way. Get your entire workers plus your contractor workers….wearing hard sole shoe and jog all over the excavated area especially at the wall area should be jogged extra 30% more. Well sprinkler with water to the earth as the jog around. It should not be wet but moist. After jogging for 1/2 day….you then lay a 50mm sand and wet it with water to compact the sand. Leave it. That is how the Great Wall of China is built. Hahaha……….

    Decades ago, just like most basements walls, they used blockworks…..they are old school but reliable, and notably cheaper than nearly any other in ground option. Filling the block is a must to ensure that the blocks don’t move and cause cracks in the plaster. Minimum reinforcement should be size 10mm diameter well anchored to it concrete base.

    Not filling the block is fine if you plan on putting in a vinyl liner. This is not acceptable if the pool is to be plastered. Plaster doesn't give, it cracks.

    When you come to pouring a footer, laying the block walls then pouring the floor, if you're planning on plastering this pool , it wouldn't be the way I would go about it. Footers can settle, and then you have a leak around the perimeter of the pond. A better way is dug the footer area wider and deeper (say 600mm x 600mm and 10mm diameter reinforcement 6nos laterally and 6mm link bars at say 300mm c/c), tie all the steel in the floor and pour the footer and floor at one go, then lay the block. If you build the wall 1st then the floor poured later……they leak period.

    For the 60cm to 80cm above ground, water pressure can be quite substantial. Straight walls don't have any support built in. it would most assuredly be worth your time to get an engineer to look it over before proceeding. You too need concrete stiffeners at say every 3m c/c to provide restraints.


    Quote
    I am so scared of the pond cracking...I will have to do a overkill too with the reinforcement...
    I thought of using the concrete blocks as shattering...sort of...a permanent one...and add to the strength...then reinforce it inside and then they pack the gunite/shotcrete by hand... Then a plaster and bitumen...He he he!
    What do U think about that?

    Answer
    Hmm….30% chance of success only.

    Quote
    Look at this pictures of pond builds....and tell me what U think...

    Answer
    They look good. Neatly lay out. Do you know the owner? Ask him or her whether they have experience any leakage. His ground condition look good and his pond does not appear to be deep to me.

    Quote
    What do U say, I build it with blocks, with the reinforcement between the blocks and the soil, put some boards above ground , and poor concrete between the soil and the blocks...and plaster it on the inside...? Will that be strong enough? Will it leak...Remember I have only bitumen here...

    Answer
    You will have a thick wall if that is ok with you. You can design for some slab work coping to disguise the wall. Concreting against direct soil is not good energineering practice as you will have plenty of honeycombs surfaces on the surfaces in contact with the soil all over the floor and wall as the concrete grouts will be loss into the soil. Laterite and crushed stones will have a lot of void within it mass. The depth of honeycomes is guesstimate to be around 50mm. You can account for this and build your Reinforced Concrete wall (150mm + 50)…so 200mm.

    Bitumen is used as a protective coat for aggressive soil condition and with that hydrostatic pressure…it is hopeless.

    What concrete mix you and your contractor has discussed to be used? 1:2:3 mix by volume?

    Concrete if mixed proper with a correct water cement ratio….and with proper curing itself is waterproofed. You need to control the heat of hydration and have as little joint as possible. At all jointing areas, hacked off all laitance and loose aggregates to get a good key.

    Quote
    I put bitumen in the filter and it leaks but just a bit....but that is from the cracks....The blocks are hollow...just plaster on top 2cm...
    If I chisel the top of my filter and put a collar with steel inside can it help not to crack in the future?

    Answer
    Bitumen is a solvent based. Need to check on the health of this thing in a pond. Do you have a diagram to illustrate? Collar mean = putting a Reinforced concrete stiffener? May be can…but you need to have 6mm reinforcement bond length well lapped into the adjacent brickworks of 200mm c/c @ 600mm to act as bonding tie.

    Quote
    I have another big problem Harry...Maybe U can think of a solution...

    Answer
    Your onion bags are the problem. How long since you last clean this lot? Hahahaha…

    Cheers
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Hahaha….
    Hi Harry


    Q
    Then……shotcrete method can go bye bye. Bitumen paint coated to surfaces in contact with earth is mainly used to a protective coating with aggressive ground condition. They are not water proofing material.
    A
    All swimming pools are made like that here and they dont leak...I have a 30 year old pool made like that and is perfect! It is very big also.
    Many serious Koi keepers in SA use bitumen as waterproofing...for many years...and it works...It is not poisonous to the fish....Maybe I wait and buy the water proofing from SA when I go there....in May?????

    Quote

    Over in my country…..we used concrete blocks and brick works as an infill. They are normally not design as a structural element.
    A
    What is infill? What do U mean by that?

    Quote
    i know what U mean by blocks cracking...My filter is 1.2m above ground....cracked after 3 month...hope it will not crack any more...

    Q
    Braced yourself…it will crack again. Hehehe……No joke. It will. For a start the crack you have repaired is not done without using non shrink cement….so there is a fine crack present there. Cement sand mortar shrink as it set. It is only a matter of time beyond it gives way again.
    A
    Dont laugh! I repaired it with Pratley...epoxy very strong adhesive...
    Quote

    Hmm…. That is a good piece of news. Does your proposed contractor has a monkey jumper (compactor) to compact the earth after excavation? If don’t have….the changes of it settling over time is there.
    A
    I think one of them has it...he showed me pictures...But for houses we use heavy metal thing by hand to compact the foundation...

    Q
    Decades ago, just like most basements walls, they used blockworks…..they are old school but reliable, and notably cheaper than nearly any other in ground option. Filling the block is a must to ensure that the blocks don’t move and cause cracks in the plaster. Minimum reinforcement should be size 10mm diameter well anchored to it concrete base.
    A
    What do U mean by blocks? U mean hollow concrete blocks? Do I put the reinforcement inside the hole of the block? If U mean that I can do it ... I fill the blocks every layer as I build?
    Q
    Not filling the block is fine if you plan on putting in a vinyl liner. This is not acceptable if the pool is to be plastered. Plaster doesn't give, it cracks.
    A
    No vinyl liners here....
    Q
    When you come to pouring a footer, laying the block walls then pouring the floor, if you're planning on plastering this pool , it wouldn't be the way I would go about it. Footers can settle, and then you have a leak around the perimeter of the pond. A better way is dug the footer area wider and deeper (say 600mm x 600mm and 10mm diameter reinforcement 6nos laterally and 6mm link bars at say 300mm c/c), tie all the steel in the floor and pour the footer and floor at one go, then lay the block. If you build the wall 1st then the floor poured later……they leak period.
    A that is a good sound advise and not a problem for me to do...
    Q
    For the 60cm to 80cm above ground, water pressure can be quite substantial. Straight walls don't have any support built in. it would most assuredly be worth your time to get an engineer to look it over before proceeding. You too need concrete stiffeners at say every 3m c/c to provide restraints.
    A
    What is concrete stiffeners? and 3m c/c?

    Q
    You will have a thick wall if that is ok with you. You can design for some slab work coping to disguise the wall. Concreting against direct soil is not good energineering practice as you will have plenty of honeycombs surfaces on the surfaces in contact with the soil all over the floor and wall as the concrete grouts will be loss into the soil. Laterite and crushed stones will have a lot of void within it mass. The depth of honeycomes is guesstimate to be around 50mm. You can account for this and build your Reinforced Concrete wall (150mm + 50)…so 200mm.
    A
    What if I put a politelene sheet of plastic between the concrete and the soil? But in any case I was planning to have the concrete part thicker than 200mm...
    Q
    Bitumen is used as a protective coat for aggressive soil condition and with that hydrostatic pressure…it is hopeless.
    A bitumen is painted inside the pond, on the plaster...There is no soil there.
    Q
    What concrete mix you and your contractor has discussed to be used? 1:2:3 mix by volume?
    A
    Yes cement : sand: stones=123
    Q
    Concrete if mixed proper with a correct water cement ratio….and with proper curing itself is waterproofed. You need to control the heat of hydration and have as little joint as possible. At all jointing areas, hacked off all laitance and loose aggregates to get a good key.
    A
    Dont understand:
    Heat of hydration
    jointing areas
    hacked off all laitance
    loose aggregates...

    Q
    Bitumen is a solvent based. Need to check on the health of this thing in a pond. Do you have a diagram to illustrate? Collar mean = putting a Reinforced concrete stiffener? May be can…but you need to have 6mm reinforcement bond length well lapped into the adjacent brickworks of 200mm c/c @ 600mm to act as bonding tie.
    A
    Dont get this:
    you need to have 6mm reinforcement bond length well lapped into the adjacent brickworks of 200mm c/c @ 600mm to act as bonding tie.
    By collar I mean to put shatter around the top of the wall, dig a bit in the middle of the wall. put 4 steel 10mm Y, with 6mm rings and poor 20cm high concrete inside.


    Quote

    Your onion bags are the problem. How long since you last clean this lot? Hahahaha…
    A

    I have not cleaned them yet...but flush the bottom drain...Why do U think they are the problem?...I have 3-4cm water over the pipe...it is not like it is starved...OK! I will chop it off tomorrow...(make it shorter if U think that is the problem...Lets see if it will stop...
    I will take them put tomorrow and see if they are dirty...Will make pictures for U.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396
    Hi Neli and Good day to you.

    Quote
    All swimming pools are made like that here and they dont leak...I have a 30 year old pool made like that and is perfect! It is very big also.
    Many serious Koi keepers in SA use bitumen as waterproofing...for many years...and it works...It is not poisonous to the fish....Maybe I wait and buy the water proofing from SA when I go there....in May?????

    Answer
    Can try but I am still of the opinion it will not work as it does not have the elastomeric properties of a good waterproofing material. We don't apply this every now and then.

    Quote
    What is infill? What do U mean by that?

    Answer
    Just as a partition wall. It is designed for non load bearing.

    Quote
    Dont laugh! I repaired it with Pratley...epoxy very strong adhesive...

    Answer
    There you go....there are some decent materials can be found. hahaha.....

    Quote
    I think one of them has it...he showed me pictures...But for houses we use heavy metal thing by hand to compact the foundation...

    Answer
    That will do. You check whether it has been properly compact by using your shoe heel to intend on the surfaces. It should only go in approximately 8mm max. That is about 95% relative compaction achieved.

    Quote
    What do U mean by blocks? U mean hollow concrete blocks? Do I put the reinforcement inside the hole of the block? If U mean that I can do it ... I fill the blocks every layer as I build?

    Answer
    Yes...hollow concrete blocks. They can be quite big in size 6" x8" x 16". They are basically designed as gravity retaining wall and the reinforcement 10mm placed inside to take bending forces. You should check with your local manufacturer whether they have a design manual on their product that can guide you.

    Quote
    What is concrete stiffeners? and 3m c/c?

    Answer
    They are reinforced concrete to act as restraints. You can view a RC stiffener here:
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/905/hello-new-here./p2

    Quote
    What if I put a politelene sheet of plastic between the concrete and the soil? But in any case I was planning to have the concrete part thicker than 200mm...

    Answer
    Can. used 50mm thick polyethylene sheet and taped the joint properly to prevent loss of grout. They are good insulation too.

    A thick concrete wall has good water-tightness properties. In a water retaining structure you want to have small diameter reinforcement closely place and near to the surfaces of the structure (say 30mm from the face of the concrete) so that it can take surfaces induced stresses.

    Quote
    A bitumen is painted inside the pond, on the plaster...There is no soil there.

    Answer
    Yes...you can do that but if there is water moisture or water vapour from the concrete itself and water from the non coated side....your bitumen will detach from the surface. Bitumen I think cannot take UV light. They will harden and peel off.....

    Quote
    Yes cement : sand: stones=123

    Answer
    OK. That is good site mix. You mix by volume with a mixer. Water to cement ratio try at 0.4.

    Quote
    Dont understand:
    Heat of hydration
    jointing areas
    hacked off all laitance
    loose aggregates...

    Answer
    When concrete set...it hydrates and gives off heat....that is why you need to cure it proper.
    Assuming you are going to do in 2 cast. One for the base and one for the wall. You have a joint between the base and the wall. Laitance is formed when you vibrate the concrete....It is the accumulation of fine particles on the surface of fresh concrete resulting from an upward movement of water in the concrete

    Quote
    By collar I mean to put shatter around the top of the wall, dig a bit in the middle of the wall. put 4 steel 10mm Y, with 6mm rings and poor 20cm high concrete inside.

    Answer
    That is a good restraint detail for the top of the blocks work.

    Quote
    I have not cleaned them yet...but flush the bottom drain...Why do U think they are the problem?.

    Answer
    INPUT > OUTPUT

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396
    Quote
    What if I put a politelene sheet of plastic between the concrete and the soil? But in any case I was planning to have the concrete part thicker than 200mm...

    Answer
    I misread your statement. Ok. You can use polyethylene sheet (0.25mm thick as least) to separate the concrete from the soil. You can laid that sheet too at its base.

    I remember....you mention water well. Is the water table relatively high at your place?
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Hi Harry!


    Quote
    Dont laugh! I repaired it with Pratley...epoxy very strong adhesive...

    Answer
    There you go....there are some decent materials can be found. hahaha.....
    A
    Not here!

    Quote

    That will do. You check whether it has been properly compact by using your shoe heel to intend on the surfaces. It should only go in approximately 8mm max. That is about 95% relative compaction achieved.
    A
    OK will go and buy high hill shoes tomorrow...He he he! I am a Tom boy!

    Quote

    Yes...hollow concrete blocks. They can be quite big in size 6" x8" x 16". They are basically designed as gravity retaining wall and the reinforcement 10mm placed inside to take bending forces. You should check with your local manufacturer whether they have a design manual on their product that can guide you.
    A
    Ok Thats good for me..Do I put it in every 8" block vertical, or I can do every other block? Our blocks have a bottom I can remove it just enough so the Y10 passes trough it but that hole will be not good enough to have the concrete pass from the top of the pond to the bottom, but I could fill individual blocks and as i build. Is that OK? then I will put rings (all around Y10 bar, on top of the blocks...before I put the line of blocks on top..Do I put those every line or how? How do I marry them with the concrete floor? Do I put them into the concrete floor while it is soft?

    Quote
    What is concrete stiffeners? and 3m c/c?

    Answer
    They are reinforced concrete to act as restraints. You can view a RC stiffener here:
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/905/hello-new-here./p2
    A
    OK got it! U mean on the corners...Now if I put that horizontal on top of the blocks I call it a collar.What if I put /cast some horizontal ones like that? Will it help?
    What I was planning to do is just build the rectangle the way U suggested, and since I will round the corners (a lot) Put those stiffeners in the corner and pack with concrete the corners.. will that work? Or I need to maybe attack them with Y10 to the steel in the blocks?


    Q
    Can. used 50mm thick polyethylene sheet and taped the joint properly to prevent loss of grout. They are good insulation too.
    A
    I was wondering what is this 5cm thick polyethylene sheet, to stop the grout from leaking into the soil.... He he he!
    Q
    A thick concrete wall has good water-tightness properties. In a water retaining structure you want to have small diameter reinforcement closely place and near to the surfaces of the structure (say 30mm from the face of the concrete) so that it can take surfaces induced stresses.
    A
    What is this:
    small diameter reinforcement
    Quote

    The concrete needs to be well cured and very dry before U can put bitumen on it...That is what I did inside my filters...

    Quote
    I have not cleaned them yet...but flush the bottom drain...Why do U think they are the problem?.

    Answer
    INPUT > OUTPUT
    I cleaned them yesterday and it was a pain in the A...
    Found some fine particles but not too much...
    Q
    I remember....you mention water well. Is the water table relatively high at your place?
    A it is borehole water is at 50m.
    Thanks Harry!


    I remember....you mention water well. Is the water table relatively high at your place?
  • harryyewharryyew December 2011
    Posts: 396
    Ho ho Ho…Merry Christmas to you and everybody here :)

    Sorry for the late reply…..Have been busy lately. Let us get back to the discussions……

    Quote
    OK will go and buy high hill shoes tomorrow...He he he!

    Answer
    Huh! No need high heel shoes…..Just a rubber rain boot shoe will do…hehehe…

    Quote
    Ok Thats good for me..Do I put it in every 8" block vertical, or I can do every other block? Our blocks have a bottom I can remove it just enough so the Y10 passes trough it but that hole will be not good enough to have the concrete pass from the top of the pond to the bottom, but I could fill individual blocks and as i build. Is that OK? then I will put rings (all around Y10 bar, on top of the blocks...before I put the line of blocks on top..Do I put those every line or how? How do I marry them with the concrete floor? Do I put them into the concrete floor while it is soft?

    Answer
    Before you proceed further….I must highlight to you one more time that the concrete blocks can never be a proper water retaining wall structure. Many people have built using concrete blocks or brickworks to great success based on tried and the traditional forms of construction. My observation is that they all have good ground conditions, the earth is well consolidated and the ground drains off well. A well consolidated ground will not undergo minimum secondary settlement if the new imposed load is less that it overburden load. A well drained ground condition is generally porous in nature where the active pore water pressure cannot be built up at the side of the wall and the water table is deep below the earth.

    Let us consider the various possible scenarios of your loading conditions.

    1) When the pond is completed, earth is backfilled and water is infill.
    2) When the pond is completed, earth is backfill and no water is in the pond.
    3) When the pond is completed, earth is backfill and water is infill but later you excavate a substantial big hole near the external wall of the pond to build something or your neighbour dig a big hole at the back of the fencing wall.
    4) When the pond is completed, earth is backfill and water is infill, later your surrounding ground experience wet condition….say from continuous heavy rain.

    Scenario 3 is the worst case.

    The wall can failed in a number of modes. The main modes are as follows:

    1) sliding
    2) overturning
    3) bending
    4) Settlement
    5) Thermal stresses

    Let assume your pond water depth will be 1.8m. You need to have a wall base of 800mm to a height of 1m and the remaining height cab be 400mm to a height of 1m.

    Item 1, 2, and 3….The factor of safety is calculated at 1.6. This IMO is good enough.
    To address the possible immediate settlement, you design for a concrete base 150mm thick and allow 2 layers of 10mm diameter weld mesh grid at 200m x 200mm arrangement. Dig the ground to embed the BD pipes and use the 50mm thick lean concrete to cover until the crown of the pipe. This lean concrete will hold the pipes in position and will give you a good working platform to carry out subsequent works.

    You will set your concrete block in position when the concrete is soft. This gives you a good key and bond. Construct reinforced columns stiffeners (4nos Y10 c/c 6mm diameter as link at every R6@200 c/c) at the corner and at every 3m c/c along the wall to provide restraint to your concrete block works. It should have a bonding tie 6mm diameter x 800mm length bar over the centre of the stiffener at every 200mm lift in the height of the wall.

    Use a mixing cement sand mortar ration of 1:2 for the jointing mortar. Do not add lime. Wet all the concrete blocks well before use. The jointing mortar thickness should be around 10mm and trowel flush to the block face. Remember to wet the concrete blocks before mortar jointing them.

    You can fill individual blocks void as you build up with cement sand mortar ration 1:2 with reinforcement Y10 in it. This Y10 bar is best anchored into the base slab to allow good anchorage.

    When you lift the concrete blocks as you built…..use the stretcher bond to arrange your block by overlapping between courses……so that the block works can distribute load and provide stability. Stretcher bond will allow bonding along the length of the wall they are laid with the vertical joints between bricks lying directly under and over the centre of bricks in the courses under and over.

    Quote
    OK got it! U mean on the corners...Now if I put that horizontal on top of the blocks I call it a collar.What if I put /cast some horizontal ones like that? Will it help?
    What I was planning to do is just build the rectangle the way U suggested, and since I will round the corners (a lot) Put those stiffeners in the corner and pack with concrete the corners.. will that work? Or I need to maybe attack them with Y10 to the steel in the blocks?

    Answer
    No…not only at the corner. At every 3m c/c.
    For your wall height, no need intermediate lintel beam.
    Huh!....What did I suggest how the rectangular to be built?
    You want to have a round corner. There are many ways this can be achieved. You cab always built the wall up and have a piece of plywood cut to the width you required to chamber the corner and infill the with cement sand mortar (1:3). For a perfect rounding use plastering works to complete it.

    Cheers
    :)

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