Kindai Showa - To Die or Not To Die?
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    OK, I've already posted about my kindai showa's facial inflammation (which has caused her left eye to pop out) on another thread. Let me run through the chronology of events here on this thread. Note, graphic images!!

    About 2 weeks ago, I noticed her shiroji starting to yellow. She ate normally though, but I knew something was wrong. She has had sinking problem for over 3 years now, since that terrible New Pond Syndrome that I had over 3 years ago, but other than the gulping and parking, she does eat every meal. Her shiroji had always been very white. Anyway several days later, 2 Sundays ago, I noticed her left eye popping a little so I bowled her out and saw that the left side of her face was swollen.
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4476/02102011287.jpg

    I put her into quarantine tank after injecting her with 1.5cc of Lincomycin. I've tried this antibiotic on other fish and it's quite effective. Also very powerful as you will see.... I did a total of 5 injections on consecutive days. On the last day, I had to put her back into the pond as I was scheduled to go to Singapore the next day for the NHA show. Shortly after I put her back into the pond, she was like this....
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4477/05102011290.jpg

    Her mouth and gills were not moving at all. After hoisting her up with my Matsuda net and bringing her to the shower tray where oxygen levels could be higher, her mouth and gills were still not moving. I lowered her back to the bottom of the pond and observed her for longer. Her mouth and gills did not move for one whole hour. I decided she was really gone, and netted her up. As I put her into the black garbage bag, SHE TWITCHED! It gave me hope and I lowered her back into the pond. After 3 more hours of lying on her side at the bottom of my pond, she was swimming normally again, though obviously still with the inflammation and popeye. I left for Singapore the next day.

    My analysis on her reaction was that Lincomycin is very strong and cannot be overdosed. There was one occasion when I dosed 2cc for her and she was on her side in the Qtank, though her mouth and gills were still moving. Recovered after half an hour. I reverted to 1.5cc and it was OK until the last injection after which I put her back into the pond. The problem with that last injection was that the previous injection was on the previous day afternoon instead of morning. Not a full day had passed when I did the last injection, so possibly overdose also despite being 1.5cc. Just my guess.


    I just returned from Singapore this morning. Brought the show fish back from Gosanke Koi, Taman Desa and netted up the kindai showa into quarantine tank again. She now looks like this...
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4478/11102011293.jpg
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4479/11102011294.jpg

    Her popeye is a lot worse. You can see the swollen part under the eye better in the 1st photo. Brother David suggested cutting a slit at the lower part of the inflamed area to release the pus, so I tried this. But before even trying, I was not hopeful at all because the whole area was already hard instead of soft. Why is it hard? I don't know!! Somebody tell me. Is it because I waited too long to cut the slit? Anyway, nothing came out. I applied topical over it (mixture of PP and yellow powder) and put her into the Qtank. Added Blagdon anti ulcer. Thinking of doing another series of injections with a different antibiotic over the next few days. I also notice some pineconing of scales starting to emerge (can see in the last photo).

    I feel terrible looking at her condition now, and wonder if I should euthanize her? She is such a lovely fish and it pains me so much to see her in this state...
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-10-11 10:39:48 pm
  • ashfaqashfaq October 2011
    Posts: 799
    Brother paul, I am sooo sorry to see your fish like this.
    Dont we have a Koi care center over there in malaysia? Instead of killing :( , we can keep there right?
    if i am there i would have open a center like this and keep these kind of kois separately and treat.
    Thanks,
    Ashfaq from India-Chennai
  • ShukriShukri October 2011
    Posts: 4,881
    Hi Paul, really dumb founded to see the sorry state that your koi is in right now. Obviously, all these is due to the initial infection i.e. the inflamation of the face where there is a growth, internal ulcer thus causing puss. I believe you should give it one more time with a whole new set of antibiotics other than Lymcomycin, Ciprobay or Romikacin. I honestly hope that it isn't a tumor which is cancerous........ :-(
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2011-10-12 12:12:45 am
  • megatronmegatron October 2011
    Posts: 832
    Bro Paul, I like your kindai showa so much that I am still keeping its photo when she was at 50cm. This is really a heart pain to see her current condition. I am sorry.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4531/50cmKoi2.jpg
    Don't ask me why!!!
    Post edited by AndySitt at 2011-10-12 06:27:23 am
  • lautslauts October 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Paul ,

    Very sorry to see your Kindai in such a condition. I think the onset of pineconing could likely be due to start of internal organ failure. You could prolong and give some chance for the kindai by salting to 0.9%. This will stop further influx of water into the koi causing the pineconing. But only if you have some treatment in mind like other type of antibiotic. I think the Linco is not working. Personally i think it is forgone conclusion , painful as it may be , put it out of misery would be best option.
    Sorry bro.

    ts

    ps: recently i had to let go of my 81cm male orchiba due to furunculosis. The pineconing was the last straw , everything went downhill from then on. Did not know it was jumbo until i had to euthanisize it .

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4527/Orchiba.JPG
    Post edited by lauts at 2011-10-12 12:41:46 am
    Attachments
    Orchiba.JPG 50K
  • ashfaqashfaq October 2011
    Posts: 799
    brother Lauts, such a lovely ochiba you had.
    Thanks,
    Ashfaq from India-Chennai
    Post edited by ashfaq at 2011-10-12 01:11:04 am
  • SBSRIDHARSBSRIDHAR October 2011
    Posts: 50
    Bro Paul, Very sorry to see your showa in this condition. It is totally affected by internal bacteria, what ever the you give to her. She won't be back to the condition. It's a pain to see the fish in this condition. Still you can try with one more round of medicine keep it in the QT and give full attention to her.

    S.B. Sridhar
  • DanleeDanlee October 2011
    Posts: 694
    Bro Paul,

    I am really lost for words... So sad and sorry to see your Maruyama Kindai Showa's condition worsen even after the 5 days antibiotic treatment. I am in two minds on what you should do next. Like what Bro Shukri have suggested, maybe it is still worth a while to try another round of different antibiotic (Ciprobay or Romikacin).
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2011
    Posts: 340
    Bro,

    Sorry to learn of the sorry state that your kindai showa is in.
  • mrkoimrkoi October 2011
    Posts: 496
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4530/50cmKoi.JPG
    Hope she will recover soon. All the best bro Paul.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau October 2011
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro Paul,
    So sorry to know about your kindai Showa. But bro, don't give up. I don't know whether my finding can help. I did use Lycimisin and Blagdon Anti Ulcer on my koi before on minor cut on my koi. Temporary side effect of Blagdon Anti ulcer is bulging eyes. I got this symtom too on my koi, exactly like your Showa's right eyes. It could be the combo of this that has caused both eyes to bulge and made the left eye worsen.

    So my suggestion, just give her a break. Just make her comfortable in 0.3% or less salt in good water for a few days. The swollen will reduce and the right eye should go back to normal. This what happened to my koi. Overdose of Lyncomisin is possible in your case as Lycomisin dosage is very much less compared to Ciprobay. I will only go for 1cc and max up to 1.5cc. I only use Lycomisin on open wound.

    After 3 days, I would go for Ciprobay up to 2cc and jab it at the left pactoral fin's base twice and single shot on the right. I won't try anything else as the Showa is so stressful right now. But that''s just me bro.

    All the best to you and your kindai Showa bro.
  • AnuarAnuar October 2011
    Posts: 688
    Bro Paul,

    Sorry for this. She is actually my favorite in your pond. Not many among us prefer kindai.

    As mentioned by Bro Capt, there is a possibility of overdose. I gathered from Jeff of Arowana that lincomycin is actually very potent and even got a copy of Japanese written instruction from him that the antibiotic is strong enough to be administered only once. Don't know how true but about a couple of weeks ago, one of my tosais recovered from dropsy with 2 dosages of 1 ml and subsequent 0.5 ml on the following day.

    Good luck! I think no harm trying what some of the bros here have suggested.
  • ChengAunChengAun October 2011
    Posts: 925
    Oh my gosh! An angel at 50 cm! What a terrible sight to see her in now :(
    Be updated in the world of koi. Jangankan seperti "Koi di bawah bottom drain"
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Just got back from Happy Hours (well, not really that happy!) and am touched to see so many responses. Thanks guys. Captain, I was using Blagdon Anti Ulcer in the QT for another 2 ulcered fish a few weeks before this and I didn't notice any pop eye developing?

    Bro Seng Choon said he will bring another antibiotic tomorrow, and I will try it. Anything goes at this time. After the 3 or 5 doses (whatever it may be), I may try the salting method as suggested by several guys here (as well as through SMS). She has given me immense pleasure, I owe it to her to do whatever best I can, and even if I fail, at least I tried. I suspect though that the NPS over 3 years ago is slowly taking its toll. Internally already damaged. Won't stop me from trying anyway.......

    Ps. In most pineconing cases, the body is very bloated, but in the case of my kindai, her body is not bloated at all, think you can tell from the photos. It may not be an issue regarding osmotic pressure.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-10-12 05:07:44 am
  • raymond_ongraymond_ong October 2011
    Posts: 90
    Bro Paul, sorry to see your showa at this stage now. Athought can't offer any advise since i'm very new here but hope she will get better soon. Never give up and cheers



  • lautslauts October 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Paul ,

    Since you are trying , may i suggest the following:
    a) Salt to 0.6% now , regardless of reason for raised scale either reaction to antibiotic or osmotic , would help to minimise stress by reducing influx of water into the koi. If you see further raised scale to bloatedness then increase to 0.9%. This will buy you time, from my experience big kois can last for weeks in very bad condition like huge hole on side , completely rotten tail .
    b) Lincomycin is one of strongest in its class of antibiotic aminoglycosides ( i think) including amikacin. If Linco does not work and you still want to try antibiotic , no point trying out something in same class like amikacin. Try another class of antibiotic like ciprobay.
    c) Antibacterial like antiulcer (Blagdon)or acriflavine based medication like SS2(Atari) or S1 added to QT water.
    d) Topicals applied in damaged area near the eye to avoid further infections.

    Good luck bro.

    ts
  • ikankoikauikankoikau October 2011
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro Paul,
    Out of the 4 kois in the QT(with Blagdon Anti Ulcer added), one was showing obvious bulging eyes. The other one was mild. Both of the kois were back to normal just a day after that. The obvious one was jabbed with Lincomysin.

    Keep us update on the condition of your beautiful kindai showa bro.
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Captain, could it be the internal bacterial infection which caused the bulging eyes and not the Blagdon Anti Ulcer?

    Bro Lau, I already added Blagdon Anti Ulcer, and applied topical on the whole inflammed area (but not directly on the eye). But this morning I woke up to find the kindai motionless on its side, in the Qtank. I will wait till this evening to see if another 'miracle' happens.
  • jaysonjayson October 2011
    Posts: 106
    bro Paul,
    sorry to hear ur koi get so badly. Have you try Ocean free and furanol(JBL) med before? very good for internal bacterial infection. my fish (aro and koi) when kena internal bacterial infection i use it very effective.
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    I believe last night my kindai read the forum and learned about my dilemma, so she took matters into her own hands. Her pectorals grew bigger and bigger until they became beautiful wings, and then she flew peacefully back to Japan. RIP.

    No worries guys, although my heart hurts, I've long since taken these things as part and parcel of this hobby. :)
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-10-13 12:30:40 am
  • tomatomoontomatomoon October 2011
    Posts: 97
    Bro sorry for your loss.
    Post edited by tomatomoon at 2011-10-13 12:45:55 am
  • DanleeDanlee October 2011
    Posts: 694
    Bro Paul,

    Sorry to hear that.. May she RIP. I will always remember her as offpring of the All Japan Grand Champion..

    koianswers.com/discussion/download/4532/Maruyama cert.jpg
    Post edited by Danlee at 2011-10-13 12:56:41 am
  • lautslauts October 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Paul
    She was a beauty , sorry for your loss.

    ts
  • mrkoimrkoi October 2011
    Posts: 496
    Bro Paul,

    Sorry for your lost. May she rest in peace.
  • megatronmegatron October 2011
    Posts: 832
    Sorry for your lost bro.
    Don't ask me why!!!
    Post edited by megatron at 2011-10-13 12:50:15 am
  • ShukriShukri October 2011
    Posts: 4,881
    :-( :-( :-(
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2011-10-13 12:55:32 am
  • ikankoikauikankoikau October 2011
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro Paul,
    You have done your best bro. She has spent her life in one of the best pond and was blessed with a caring owner. She will be in peace. My deepest condolence bro.
  • ashfaqashfaq October 2011
    Posts: 799
    Brother paul,
    Soooo sorry for your loss :(
    Thanks,
    Ashfaq from India-Chennai
  • ChengAunChengAun October 2011
    Posts: 925
    Uncle Paul,
    Very Sorry For the Loss.
    May It Rest In Peace
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/4530/50cmKoi.JPG

    :( :(
    Be updated in the world of koi. Jangankan seperti "Koi di bawah bottom drain"
    Post edited by ChengAun at 2011-10-13 02:17:31 am
  • jaysonjayson October 2011
    Posts: 106
    bro Paul, Sorry for your lost.
  • SBSRIDHARSBSRIDHAR October 2011
    Posts: 50
    Bro Paul, I felt very sad about this, any how she relived from all her miseries. Let her in a different peace full world.

    S.B. Sridhar
  • WinlimWinlim October 2011
    Posts: 161
    I remember this koi very clearly. She was in one of SPKC auctions. Probably the best koi they have ever auctioned. Sorry for your loss Bro
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Wah, didn't realise this koi so well known! Bro Daniel, how come you have copy of the cert wor? I'm not even sure where the cert is!! Must be somewhere deep within my drawers. CA, you also keep very old photos ah? Bro Winston, yes you are right, from SPKC online auction. Actually I registered my interest for the koi but I missed the deadline because I was having dinner with my family. Then Luke called up and informed me that someone else got the koi, but the other guy offered it to me anyway. :O
  • KoiBeginnerKoiBeginner October 2011
    Posts: 234
    Uncle Paul,
    Sorry for your loss :(
  • DanleeDanlee October 2011
    Posts: 694
    Bro Paul,

    I took the cert from SPKC auction site leh!! I think most people were drooling over this koi when it was put up for auction by SPKC .. Unfortunately, I could only dream of owning her as I just could not afford her.
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2011
    Posts: 340
    Bro Paul,

    Sorry for your loss.
  • raymond_ongraymond_ong October 2011
    Posts: 90
    Bro Paul, sorry for your loss, she was such a beauty.
  • kumarishnakumarishna October 2011
    Posts: 90
    Bro Paul- sorry for you loss. and the lesson is more new Kindai Showa to look for ya. $-)
  • SBSRIDHARSBSRIDHAR October 2011
    Posts: 50
    Bro Paul, I am really appreciating the way you declared the fish death. I am able to understand from your writing, how much affection you have on her. The real affection and love only will make the people to write like that.

    S.B. Sridhar
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Thanks everyone for all the kind words. I'm over her already. Fish are fish after all. :) Gotta move on!
  • AnuarAnuar October 2011
    Posts: 688
    Bro Paul, I think most of us have not undergone such experience especially with the larger sized kois. Your sharing reminds us in a way to appreciate our herd, and the fact that they will all die one day. My first experience involved 5 larger sized ones and what an unpleasant experience it was.

    Not sure whether it is a good idea to start an obituary thread, just to remind us that our hobby involves living beings which will leave us one day. A photo will also help us remember our earlier collections... and the cause of death for learning and to motivate us to upkeep our pond maintenance.

    Regards.
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Bro Anuar, since you mentioned cause, do allow me to share some exchanges I had with Brother David on this kindai's case.

    Brother David has seen this occurring before, and terms it as "stone in cheek". He feels that it is viral in nature rather than bacterial. Similarly, he also feels that hikui is likely viral in nature. Many of these viruses are latent in our ponds and can be triggered or awakened when there is increased microbial activity in the pond. Microbial activity refers to the level of microbial organisms within our pond eco-system including, but not limited to, good bacteria, bad bacteria, viruses, even algae. He has not had hikui occuring in any of his ponds in so many years of koi keeping. The trick according to him is to keep microbial activity low. The good bacteria (nitrosomonas and nitrobacter) should be just sufficient to keep ammonia and nitrites at negligible levels. A healthy nitrates level is alright and indicative that the nitrosomonas and nitrobacter bacteria are well established.

    He measures the microbial level using the coliform test (not available in test kits but only by professional water testing companies). To control coliform level, he uses Max Biotope every 2 weeks after filter washing (which can itself awaken latent bad bacteria/viruses). Daily water changes, good oxygenation are the other 2 key factors and that's about it. Interestingly, Dato Razif popped by my pond this afternoon and reported that after using Biotope (but the Atari version at 1ml/ton), he could hardly believe that a professional water test done on his pond water showed zero (ie non detectable) coliform level.

    In my case, the latent bad bacteria and viruses probably "woke up" when my water pumps were off for about 30 hours (about 2 months ago) due to my (ex) contractor not being able to finish a simple filter renovation job. Although the air blowers were on, there was no water mixing for all those hours.

    Just to share with you guys.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-10-14 04:38:43 am
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Being viral in nature, no amount of antibiotic injections (which only deal with bacteria, and even then only certain specific strains of bacteria only) would have helped. He felt that I should have left her in the pond and given her immune system a chance to fight against the viral attack. Just need to keep our water as good as possible. The netting and injection process (which many of us tend to do indiscriminately and far too often in unnecessary cases) further stresses out an already weak fish.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-10-14 04:37:03 am
  • SBSRIDHARSBSRIDHAR October 2011
    Posts: 50
    You are right Paul, long time back my initial stage of koi keeping. Once with out proper treatment I had introduce new fishes in to my pond. The next day morning all my existing fishes were parking on the bottom. I have started treat my whole pond with medicine.
    All the fishes become alright except one big. Than I have separated it and treated with all the medicine. Finally the fish died because of my over treatment. The fish was totally torched by medicine. If you keep the water in condition and keep the bacteria in just wanted level. They will take care of fishes.

    S.B. Sridhar
  • DAVIDSOONDAVIDSOON October 2011
    Posts: 262
    Good Day Brothers here ,

    I had little time to explain much to Brother Paul the last few days on his pond and koi , as we had to wrap up the 2nd NHA Show , and put things back to running orders at Max Koi farm . This was the exchange I had with Brother Paul , as well as my views on the whole issues and water management here . What I wrote to Brother Paul , may be a little provocative or offending to some , but I guess agreeing to disagree with some of the practices here , can help more readers here to understand more about the things that's going on around here and other forums as well .

    Abstract from my exchange with Brother Paul .

    Brother Paul ,

    Don't ever listen to all the bullshit about aerosomonas , Pseudomonas or whatever that can infect or worsen a wound in our pond . Simple routine of regular water change , and high oxygenation level , is good enough to eliminate aeromonas or pseudomonas presence in our ponds and help providing an aerobic environment . This is simple Prevention practice , while I find most disturbing to be having so many discussions here on trying to find CURE , rather than Preventing blooming activies of such strains or colonies .

    Breeders worries more about microbial viral more than bacteria infection because it's a simple routine most practice in Japan . You don't find ulceration issues in Sakai , nor Momotaro or Dainichi ... nor many of the breeders we know , because they practice prevention more than finding Cures . They rather invest monies on preventive measures rather than spending monies on finding Cures .

    Like Hikui , if you believe that Hikui is hereditary , then you ought to know that increase microbial activities can trigger an outbreak of Hikui and few other know viral diseases... bcos it's the microbial viral that can stay domant in our fish or ponds . Like KHV that is known to be a viral disease , "stone in cheek" is hereditary of some microbial viral and a fish can appear healthy but we dignosed that increased microbial activities can also trigger or lend the "wake-up" call to " hibernating viral " .

    Your recent reno on the mat chamber is one good example that can trigger such event . Water has to be 100 pct in healthy range , but believe you took the maintence day to redo the chamber mat . I must comment brother , that your water was not pre-prepare for such work .


    The basic understanding on Vaccines and Antibiotics are often confused and not widely spoken of becos the medical science of Nishikigoi had been widely corrupted by too many google doctors . The truth behind vaccines and antibiotic , is that one rely and manifest on the immune modulation or augmentation , and various vaccines are administered to either excites , booster or reinforce the various immune competencies of various immunity host to ward off various infection ,and this helps in the production of antibodies and increase immunities against many classic viral diseases , on the other hand Antibiotic slows down or eliminate certain strains of bacteria , and each bacteria infection must be dignosed before the correct antibiotic can be administered to tackle the right strain identified . We had came to an understanding that some bacteria strain known to have infect wounds or feed on wounds had develope a resistance to most antibiotics now .

    The emergence of resistance of nasty bacteria to antibiotic drugs , is commonly seen in this forum and many fail to realise . Antibiotic Resistance bacteria mutated into stronger strain of nasty bacteria in most cases , and this has caused wide spread concern among the hobbyists in Europe and the United States . Among the States hobbyists , you would seldom see any hobbyists recommending antibiotics to fishes as it's a highly sensitive issue and recommendation . It need a microbiologist to determine and help identify different strains of nasty bacteria before any recommendation on the right antibiotics to be administered . I don;t think many in koianswers understand this .

    Only recommendation I can suggest , is to keep our water at healthy levels at all time , and the level of microbial activities has to be reduced , meaning .. lower Total Coliform Count or bacteria count . Silver has it's osmotic effect on microbial viral , as well as on most bacteria strains , and my usual test will be focus on the total coliform count , as well as the test results on ammonia , nitrite and nitrate . For as long as the ammonia and nitrite level is near zero , the nitrate level do indicate the strong presence of nitrosomonas and nitrobactar strains , level enough to do the job . Regular water change , good oxygenation level , low microbial level is key to healthy water Brother Paul .

    I hope not to bring confusion to your hobby , but make you a better hobbyist and keeper of Kois and water .


    David

    End of abstract .

    P.S - These were not the only exchange I had with Paul the last few days , they were a few more but I don't think we would need to discuss those issues in this thread .
    The Best is Yet to Come .
    Post edited by DAVIDSOON at 2011-10-14 06:25:15 am
  • megatronmegatron October 2011
    Posts: 832
    Very well write-up bro David, thanks for being so patience and passion sharing your koi keeping philosophy with us. It is very meaningful to me as now I realise that how shallow is my knowledge in this hobby.
    Don't ask me why!!!
    Post edited by megatron at 2011-10-14 07:35:13 am
  • AnuarAnuar October 2011
    Posts: 688
    Bro Paul,

    re: yr statement on Dato Razif's biotope dosage. OMG... I think I have shared that my dosage was many many fold over 1ml/ton. Since the test was carried out by a lab, there must be some degree of accuracy in the test result. You have rightly pointed out on the potency of the local biotope version.

    Bro David,

    Thank you for sharing and putting all in a simple advice, i.e. regular water change and good oxygenation level. Your points on microbial viral is very elightening, and scary to a certain degree. And also your point on triggering dormant viral/bacteria, which I have recently experienced, i.e. power outage for a few hours and I proceeded to run the filter once the power was back on, without flushing the filter chambers. This resulted in dropsy on one of the tosais.

    One question, if you have the time. I think you implied somewhere that filter cleaning may also trigger and awake the dormant viral/bacteria. What is the reason behind this? I think most of us like to think that our water is the best after a thorough cleaning of the filter materials.

    Thank you for your time.
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Bro Anuar, I suspect the answer to the last question lies in the fact that the water pumps are off and there is no water mixing. Not in the cleaning of filter materials. Even if air blowers are on, the fact that there is little water mixing means that there are many areas within the pond where oxygen levels may be low and anaerobic bacteria and other harmful organisms might be awakening/multiplying. Maybe Brother David has more to add on this.

    Let me double check with Dato Razif again re Atari Biotope dosage.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-10-14 04:37:41 pm
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Bro Anuar, yes Dato confirmed only 1ml/ton. 30ml dose for his 30 tons pond.
  • cookcpucookcpu October 2011
    Posts: 462
    My filter cleaning will stop the pump from running for at least 3 hrs. To run all the pump back to normal operation I think at least 6 hours.

    Now I better rethink how much water I am going to change so that there is minimum down time for the filters.

    If I redirect the oxygen concentrator tube from the filter chamber to the pond water, I wonder will it help to reduce the chance to activate those viral bug in the pond.
    Post edited by cookcpu at 2011-10-14 06:17:25 pm
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Bro William, for smaller ponds maybe OK, but for bigger ponds, the airstone from the oxygen concentrator will have very limited area of effect since the water isn't circulating. So there will still be many spots where the harmful bugs can multiply, and once the pumps start, they will mix into the rest of the water.

    I think you shouldn't reduce the amount of daily water change. This is a very important pillar of keeping good water. Deal with the bugs in a different way, eg Biotope.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-10-14 06:37:36 pm
  • cookcpucookcpu October 2011
    Posts: 462
    Bro Paul, I still do daily water change but not at the amount I have described. The weekly water change will cause my pump to be inactive for at least 3hrs.

    I do use Biotope every 2 weeks at the amount 60ml for my 30 tons pond.
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    That's 2ml per ton. Is it Max Biotope? I'm following Brother David's dosage of 5ml/ton. Not sure if he reduced dosage or not...
  • cookcpucookcpu October 2011
    Posts: 462
    Bro Paul, I purposely reduce the dosage as I am afraid to kill too many bacteria in the chamber. Yes it is Max Biotope.

    But if I use it as a form of fighting disease in the pond, I will use the correct dosage and dose for 3 days in a row.
    Post edited by cookcpu at 2011-10-14 08:43:44 pm
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Bro, don't worry so much lah. If Brother David, is not worried about his good bacteria dying, why should we? :-D
  • weihanweihan October 2011
    Posts: 318
    Hi bros, may I know the Max biotope is a form Of good bacterial or used to kill bacterial in filter chamber?
  • cookcpucookcpu October 2011
    Posts: 462
    Bro Paul, I rather err on the dosage but then what you say is right....full dosage the next round. :)
  • lautslauts October 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Paul,

    I think Bro David has a big biofilter capacity so they ie the bacterias, will bounce back very fast .Those with small biofilter to load size may not be so lucky to get away without having ammo/nitrite issue.

    ts
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Bro Wei Han - http://www.koianswers.com/search?Search=biotope

    The blank space on the top right side of the screen with the word Go is actually a Search function. Easier for me to guide you back to those threads than having to write everything out again.


    Bro Lau, judging by the drop in water level when my filter chambers are emptied out, my filter size is about 25% of my total water volume, lower than Brother David's 33%. But I don't have ammonia/nitrite issues either. As I mentioned before, a water test was done on my pond 5 days after filter washing and 3 days after addition of Biotope, and all parameters were totally healthy. There is a rationale for a recommended dosage level. Test results don't lie, why would you not believe them?

    Dato Razif also just tested his water, he mentioned that coliform level was non-detectable. He didn't mention ammonia and nitrites but I can assure you that he did measure them and he would have brought it to my attention if these levels were overly high. In fact, he had the lab perform the coliform test a 2nd time on the same sample to reconfirm the reading as the lab director was also incredulous that coliform level could be non-detectable in a koi pond!
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-10-14 11:53:30 pm
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Let's discuss this issue a little more.

    When we medicate our ponds, where do we pour the medication? Well, it depends on what we are trying to do. I add Malachite Green in my shower tray bottom as it is quite concentrated at that point when we pour in, and I want it to kill fungus, not bacteria. But I would pour Biotope into my 1st filter chamber because I want to KILL. Yes, most of the good bacteria is in the filter but so is a lot of bad bacteria. There is a heavy concentration of coliform/shit which collect at the bottom pending backflushing out.

    In a koi pond, typically the part of the pond with the lowest oxygen level is the filter. This is why J-mats should have some spaces in between (or arranged in the honeycomb style) - to bring oxygen rich water speedily to the biofilm. Folks may be surprised to know how much oxygen is consumed by the good bacteria. The more you feed, the more good bacteria will be there, and the higher the oxygen consumption rate. I believe it is possible that the bacteria consume more oxygen than the koi themselves, but I am not sure. Therefore due to the high concentration of good bacteria in the filter, the oxygen level in there can get quickly depleted and this gives anaerobic bacteria more opportunities to multiply.

    When I pour in 250ml of Biotope (5ml/ton for 50 tons), the concentration in the first chamber is not 5ml/ton but much much higher because the 1st chamber volume is much much smaller than 50 tons. It is at a concentration which KILLS. And I WANT to kill. But by the time it reaches the pond itself, the concentration level has been much diluted as it has mixed with much more water. Hope you guys understand what I'm saying.

    Although much of the good bacteria is in our filter (because we put filter media in there for them to live on), there is actually good bacteria all over the pond - the pond walls, the pond bottom, and everywhere in the water. So even if all the good bacteria in the filter is killed by the Biotope (which I don't think so), the rest of the good fellas in the pond itself will remultiply faster than some of us can have a round with our wives. :-D The same thing applies when we wash our filter with tap water. The good bacteria in the pond itself are still alive and will multiply to replace those killed.

    Abang Shukri, I think this will cast some light regarding the issue you raised on the other thread you started. :)
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-10-15 12:32:31 am
  • lautslauts October 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Paul ,

    "Bro, don't worry so much lah. If Brother David, is not worried about his good bacteria dying, why should we? :D"

    My comment is in response to your above comment ,not questioning abt test result. Your filter size and David's and i believe Dato Razif's would have no problem handling higher level of Biotope but not smaller filter sizes?

    Actually filter volume is misleading too. Yours like Bro David's is pretty compact stacked , mine if hanging so not compact at all so less usable space for good bacterias to grow. Even though my chambers could be bigger , they would be way lower in usable capacity. The rest is just water flowing thru. So i would be careful to dose at same rate as you and bro David ? Good to hear 1ml/ton works too .

    ts
  • DAVIDSOONDAVIDSOON October 2011
    Posts: 262

    On Biotope ,

    Firstly , I would always encourage all users , no matter who you may be buying from , to check the right dosage from the respective dealers . All recommendations by the respectively dealers may differs due to different concentrations or producers .

    I personally administer as much as 10c.c per tonne of water but again my concentration might be different from what you guys are getting .

    Secondly , I would still recommend hobbyists to take a water test once in a while to understand the whole rationale behind this preventive recommendation .

    For those who are reading this message now , please bear in mind , that you be responsible for what you write on what you truly know , and forget about all the hearsay thingy about bacteria and related issues . DO NOT CONFUSE others , or try to make a simple discussion look complicated or intriqued . Do not expand it out of topic or proportion .

    Now Brother Lauts , would you be able to explain the rationale behind your presumption on SIZE of Filteration and and bacteria level ?? or the size of filteration or manner of packing the media , against the dosage ?? or the multiplying abilities of bacteria if you have a big or well packed chamber ?? ... or are you confuse with the discussion here ??? or are you trying to confuse everyone here on preventive measures ???

    I have huge filteration chambers , much bigger than Brother Paul's chamber I believe , maybe smaller than yours in volume , but I believe the bacteria count in Paul's pond is 10 times higher than mine , and yours ... probably a hundred times above Brother Paul's . This is the water test result I took last week , on the day before my fishes were sent to Max Koi for quarantine , after 2 months of heavy feed in my overstock ponds . Tell me what can you make out of a well packed filteration chamber that's about your size with bacteria count only a percent of the bacteria you had harboured in your pond all these while ???

    The Best is Yet to Come .
  • AnuarAnuar October 2011
    Posts: 688
    Bro Paul,

    We never look at water change like that, very enlightening.

    TQ.
  • DAVIDSOONDAVIDSOON October 2011
    Posts: 262
    Bro David,

    One question, if you have the time. I think you implied somewhere that filter cleaning may also trigger and awake the dormant viral/bacteria. What is the reason behind this? I think most of us like to think that our water is the best after a thorough cleaning of the filter materials.

    Thank you for your time.

    Brother Anuar ,

    You seems to convict me of one who implied that filter cleaning may trigger and awake dormant viral / bacteria . I would take that you might have either taken issues out of context or you might have got confused me with someone else ??

    The last 5 years , I had been one who advocate regular water change , cleaning of filter chambers and media , even with tap water . I do not see anywhere in any forum board or here , that I ever implied that filter cleaning may trigger dormant viral or bacteria . I have never made such direct statement before . Not in Koi.com.my , not in Koi-Bito , Not in koifriends and neither here .

    If I had confused you , then I apologise , but bear in mind please , " Filter Cleaning may trigger and awake dormant viral / bacteria " , is never my statement made by me and will never be .

    David
    The Best is Yet to Come .
  • ikankoikauikankoikau October 2011
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro David, Paul, Anuar, Lau & others,

    Thanks for allowing us to see at another angle in this issue. For benefits of all hobbyist, this is what I can conclude and learn from all comments that I have read in 2 days from you and other bros: Please correct me as I am looking at a simple hobbyist point of view.

    1) In simple term, if our current or existing filtration system is able to deal with Ammonia, Nitrite and reasonable Nitrate level, we don't have to worry about good bacteria level when knocking down total coliform level by filter cleaning or adding correct dosage of Biotope. This what I can understand from the test result whereby healthy level of Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate can exist even at low bacteria count or coliform. I assume the feeding amount need not to be reduced or change even after this knocking down exercise is being carried out.

    2) Prior to any filter renovation job or shutting down pump for several hours, we should prepare the water for this purpose. Good and healthy water with low count of bacteria or coliform prior to the period will lower the risk of viral and harmful bacteria awakening. This also might reduce or eliminate it existence. This is something new for me as I always tot that I always clean up the filter after the job was done without considering that the viral or harmful bacteria already woke up by this time.

    3) After power cut off situation, back flush filtration should be carried out to get rid of bad bacteria or awakening of harmful viral due lacking of oxgen in filtration chambers and pond. Do you suggest that it is good for the hobbyist to add Biotope in this situation even if we have added in a few days ago(as routine)?

    4) Healthy water which can prevent the existence of bad viral and bad bacteria is low ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, low total coliform level and bacteria count and high oxygen level. Routine water change will deal with the first 3 and filtration cleaning or/and adding Biotope will deal with total coliform count.

    This is what I understand. Please correct me.
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Brother David,

    PLANNED poweroff for water pumps - what should be the right way to prepare our pond water if we already know in advance that out water pumps are going to be switched off for a certain length of time? Say 6 hours? How about if 24 hours? Is the pre-poweroff preparation enough or should there be further action taken once the pumps are restarted? Should the entire filter be emptied?

    UNPLANNED poweroff for water pumps - say from a power failure. What should be the correct thing to do once power resumes?

  • DRADRA October 2011
    Posts: 89
    As'kum Anuar
    You are right in showing concern about dormant bacteria. Prof.Dr.Fuad Matori of University Putra Malaysia, in a talk to the Koi fraternity(invited by Hee Heng), mentioned that different types of bacteria exit all the time in all waters. He stressed that all it takes is a trigger and that might come from drastic temperature change,unclean equipment etc. By administrating Bio-talk ,in my case,once a month, I am trying to keep these outbreaks to a minimum. What I am ensuring is that gram positive bacteria will always outnumber gram negative bacteria and hopefully by a big enough margin so as to withstand a "trigger". I get my Bio-talk from Atari Tropicana and the curative dosage is 2 ml per ton followed by a 1 ml per ton dosage a week later. I have been medicating my pond once a month with a dosage of 1 ml per ton. I have been practicing this for about a year now. However do bear in mind a friendly warning by Jeff Leong in the Koi.com forum that Bio-talk is more lethal than PP.
    Hope this helps.
    Razif Abdullah
  • DRADRA October 2011
    Posts: 89
    Hi Paul
    As requested a brief summary:
    Total Cleaning of filter: 28th July
    Bio-talk administered: 29th July
    Gram positive bacteria administered: 31st July
    Routine maintenance: Daily backwashing of pressure filters and weekly cleaning of brushes
    Bio-talk administered: 22nd August
    Water sample collected by Permulab on 9th September
    Test report tabled below:
    koianswers.com/discussion/download/4568/Test Report.jpg

    Regards

    Razif Abdullah
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Thanks for posting that up, Dato. Great set of results! Do you remember what your typical coliform level was before you ever used Biotope?

    I think you hit the nail on the spot. Like any other medicine/chemicals, Biotope can be a dangerous chemical if used in improper dosages, but if used in appropriate circumstances and in the correct dosage, they can all have a place in the hobby. Many have asked Brother David about his so-called "secrets", and I am grateful that he has shared his methods with us. Some methods may sound a little more controversial and nerves sometimes start getting raw, but we can all agree to disagree. I don't think he has ever really kept anything secret from anyone, but at times I can understand that he might one day feel reluctant to share anymore because of the controversies that may arise on open forums. I personally pray that day will never come.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-10-16 04:37:35 pm
  • lautslauts October 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro David ,

    Hope i don't confuse anyone least of all you :-D . We might be talking abt two different things , your concern is abt water itself and using Biotope to "clean " it while my concern is abt good bacterias living on the surface of the J matt in biochamber. Hence the bigger volume with packed honeycomb J matt (like yours and Paul's) will provide higher surface area for bacteria colony unlike mine with few hanging J matt even though biochamber volume bigger ( fill with water only) . Hence lower dosage of Biotope safer ? will kill less good bacterias in J matt so easier to bounce back.

    I have not had my water tested professionally so not sure abt the coliform level or good/bad bacterias in water itself . I am of course concern abt the coliform level in my pond water hence posting here to find out more abt use of Biotope/Biotalk. I did note from old forum and found out the it was Chlorine Dioxide we are all talking abt and how dangerous it is as mentioned here again by Dato Razif.

    Hope i did not hit a raw nerve with you by questioning your practises so much. Thats how i learn by asking questions after questions till i understand. Only after understanding will i accept and then practise . (handshake) (handshake) . Pls do enlighten us more abt your practises and the reasoning behind them , much thank you. Peace be with you Bro David.

    ts
  • AnuarAnuar October 2011
    Posts: 688
    Bro David,

    I must have confused the readers, my apology. I meant something in filter cleaning routine could possibly awake the dormant bacteria which Bro Paul has suggested the result of stagnant filter chambers while waiting for the water level to rise. I didn't mean cleaning the chambers as something bad.

    Capt,

    I think you are the only hobbyist I know who have designed his filter chambers capable of internally circulating water between the filter chambers. I think this is important now. When I looked back, prior to my previous bouts of ulcers/dropsy, there were instances of power trip to the pond. But in case of future recurrence, I would probably drain all the chambers first.

    Waalaikumsalam Dato,

    thank you for sharing your practice. I used to administer biotope/biotalk about 2/3 years ago. I got mine initially from Cheras Aquarium, after seeing Hj Eusoff managed to contain the outbreak of mysterious deaths to his collection, while he was building his second pond. The dosage that was advised to me was 10ml/ton for the first day followed by 5 ml/ton on the following 4 days. Of course when Bro Paul mentioned about your dosage, i was a bit shocked. But i think your situation is different especially your DO level is probably at saturation level, which provides the best condition for the good bacteria to thrive.

    When Atari started bringing this, I got theirs instead as Cheras Aquarium stores this in plastic bottles and the liquid literally leached out. I have not used it for about a year now. I agree with Bro Jeff that this stuff is potent because it bleaches and stings the skin, not to mention how it oxidizes other things. PP on the other hand is not too bad on the skin other than the dye/color.

    Regards.
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Bro Anuar, not stagnant filter chambers. My filter chambers are totally emptied out during filter cleaning. I meant the water in the pond itself being devoid of mixing/circulation when the pumps are off. :) My air curtains are on and they do generate a little water current, but I don't think anywhere near sufficient to have any effect on the other end of my pond.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-10-16 06:57:36 am
  • DAVIDSOONDAVIDSOON October 2011
    Posts: 262


    Coliform bacteria , or faecal bacteria , derives from the fish waste or shit as the name would have suggested . There is no way we can prevent coliform from existing in our pond for as long as there’s fishes and feeding . The higher the stocking level , the higher the feed rate , the faster we can see coliform bacteria build-up . We can only reduce their population from blooming in our enclosed pond .

    Coliform bacteria is one of the usual culprit behind fin rots , ulcerations in our enclosed pond , as they can infect open wounds and softer tissues .
    Biotope , or chlorine dioxide or in simple term a “ Refined Chlorine “ substance , can be administered to our pond to help contain the blooming of Coliform . The proper dosage will still not affect the health or conditions of our fishes . Please bear in mind , that the various concentration retailed by different distributors or dealers would entail a different dosage . Users has to ensure the proper dosage basis the different concentration obtained . Any overdose of Biotope , can still be lethal to the fishes . We had seen total wipe-out in vat from overdose , nothing surprising . Any overdose or overuse of chemical or medication can be fatal . Simple advise here .... Always check with the retailer on the proper dosage before you administer anything to your pond .

    Brother Lauts ,

    The different manner of packing your chamber , do not detail or define the difference in bacteria activities . You can say that a well packed chamber , is one you increased the microbial activities , but this do not define a well packed chamber to be anything aerobic or healthy .Do not confuse yourself or others , that the filteration chambers or system in our pond is the same as a Water Treatment Plant , because they are not . Water treatment plant sanitize and turn water sterile for further use , while filteration or settlement chambers , are merely a trapping or congregating place where waste or debris are clustered , collected and waiting to be disposed , and this process do not sanitize or churn out sterile water . This is reason why most would suggest that microbial activities is at it’s highest level in any filteration systems or chambers , because of what that’s gathered , clustered or settled there . The better packing would entail better trapping , and this reduce the debris or waste from going back to the main pond or column . The more compact it is , the more stringent and responsibility would be on maintence . The bigger your settlement chambers , the more you have to worry about “settlements” , because these “settlements” in our chambers can turn nasty if they are not disposed off on a regular basis . Have not you realised why we have to clear and cleanse our filteration chambers all these while ?? Have not your fishes been telling you all these ??

    It does surprised me over the years on your definition or belief that only good or nitrifying bacteria or colony lives on the surface of j-mats . We had discussed this ugly truth many times over the years . Total bacteria count do not constitute a count on good bacteria or strains , but rather , it is a comprehensive count on all existing bacterias in our system . The count consist of those good , bad and nasties . The higher the count , it would also mean higher proportion or existence of the good , the bad , as well as the nasty strains . They can co-exists, , while we also know , that a different setting can allow a different balance , which is why we emphasized to provide a better or aerobic environment , which will provide a healthier coloumn than one that’s anaerobic . An anaerobic environment or a long overdue unattended chamber , is a breeding ground that harbour the pathogens , and it’s act of negligence or ignorance that allows a setting that favours them .
    Only a microbiologists would be able to help take our water for microbiological test to break down and determine the different strains of bacterias in our water . This is why I can’t tell anyone on how much or what’s dominating in each pond , and the only advisable recommendation is to keep the counts at low levels , while observing and keeping the nitrogenous cycle in place as feeding continue . Now , do you see the rationale behind regular maintence of our system ?? or are you still convinced that a bigger or honey comb filter can help nutrify , sanatize and churn our sterile water ?? Brother Lau , I hope you do not take that this post is directed at you , but rather to let ponders know what their filteration can do and what they can’t . We had discussed such issues over the years in the old forum and I bear no grudges against you or anyone here , but rather ... I advocate for water change and regular maintence of our ponds , to keep our fishes and water healthy at all times .

    Brother Paul ,

    To your last question , on how long or what we have to do if we have to stop our pond system for say a few hours , or 6 hours , or even 24 hours ?? I can only say .... it depends very much on what’s practice everyday . The degree or tolerance of a shutdown would depend on the condition of each pond or system before they’re shut down . There had been cases of pond system shut down for more than 24 hours and fishes still survived and live through the sudden shutdown ordeal , and there are also cases , we see total wipeout within a nite of blackout less than 8 hours .

    A good ponder , is one who keeps his water at healthy level at all time . Creating an aerobic environment would help reduce mortality in any case of shutdown or blackout . If it’s a planned shutdown for an extended period of time , do not feed the fishes a few days prior to any shutdown . Ensure all fish tracts are cleared and main column in “clean conditions” before you shut the system down and segregate the main pond and filteration system , because a dirty pond of water with fish waste , is a breeding ground for pathogens , and you will never believe how some pathogens can manifest and multiply when the setting favour them . Always ensure proper aeration and even to the extend of changing some water for extended work .

    I hope all the above , can help you understand what you went through . Experience , no matter good or bad , will make you a better keeper ... if you understand and learn from them .

    I Wished All Well .

    David
    The Best is Yet to Come .
    Post edited by DAVIDSOON at 2011-10-16 09:32:33 am
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Bro Lau,

    I'm actually an accountant by training too, so I understand the psyche of an accountant. :)
    Let me tackle the Bitotope issue the decision tree way. FAQ if you like.

    Q. Are there coliform and other bad bacteria in our koi ponds?
    A. YES, coliform from all the fish pooh and other bad bacteria are omnipresent anyway.

    Q. Are they potentially harmful for our koi?
    A. YES (I think no need to expand on this).

    Q. Would we want to try to eliminate or at least reduce/control it?
    A. YES.

    Q. Does Biotope kill coliform and other bad bacteria?
    A. YES. My test result 2 years ago showed that 3 consecutive doses of Biotope brought my coliform level down from 530,000CFU/100ml to 720CFU/100ml (over 99.8% drop) - I documented this on the old forum - http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=115848;page=25;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;.
    Dato Razif's test results indicate the same thing and with only 1 dose, but his starting level was probably not as alarmingly high as mine.

    Q. Does Biotope at correct dosage kill good bacteria to the extent that our ammonia and nitrites level spike up to harmful levels?
    A. NO. Biotope does kill some good bacteria too, but not to the extent that the colony is totally wiped out and ammonia/nitrites spike. I believe the past professional water test results from Brother David, Dato Razif and myself prove this. None of us has ever had any ammonia/nitrite issues from the usage of Biotope. Here is the link to my test results 2 years ago after using Biotope. Bear in mind that it was a pond start up situation and the bacteria colony was still not so stable yet - http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=115848;page=27;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

    Q. Is Biotope used at appropriate dosages harmful for our koi?
    A. NO. Perhaps Dato Razif's and my experience with Biotope hasn't been long enough (a year for him and 2 for me, but a bit on-off for me due to cost factor), so let's look at Brother David's experience since he has been using Biotope for many years now. You can see the same koi in Shadow's pond as they have been for the last few years. More importantly, they look healthy and are growing well. Sick/compromised fish will never grow well.

    Q. Can Biotope be harmful to koi?
    A. YES, as might PP, MG, Salt, H2O2, OTC and everything else if used in inappropriate dosages.

    Hope that helps in your decision making process. No one is being forced to use it, so if you have other ways to reduce coliform count in your water, then that would be great for you. Light feeding in lower-stocked big ponds may mean lower coliform build-up, but many hobbyists practise heavy feeding in overstocked ponds, so coliform issues are more likely to arise.

    Actually after looking back at the old forum thread from 2 years ago, I realise that we have been saying the same things for 2 years now. Same questions being asked by the same people and same answers being given by the same people. I guess either one is a believer or one isn't. I don't think I want to write anything more about Biotope from now on.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-10-16 05:45:30 pm
  • PH8PH8 October 2011
    Posts: 683
    Brother David, thank you for your response. I did stop feeding for 2 days prior to my planned renovation but maybe it wasn't long enough. I am wondering whether during filter cleaning I should put one temporary pump somewhere at my bottom drain end with the rubber hose outlet in my shower tray. So that there is at least some pond circulation (which bypasses the filter) during the filter cleaning process. Then the oxygen rich water from the air curtains end have a chance of moving to the other side.
  • lautslauts October 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Paul,
    Thank you and appreciate it for going out of the way to explain abt Biotope. I still have the contact no of the water testing co you provided me and one day will do a water test to really 'know' abt my pond water. So far i am very happy with my water, based solely on what the eye can see and gut feel.

    ts

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