Can Blagdon Anti Ulcer Mix, Anti Parasite With Salt?
  • ykyapykyap June 2011
    Posts: 22
    Hi Guys,

    Just want to know whether it is safe to mix salt with Blagdon Anti Ulcer and Anti Parasite? I was told by a local dealer that it is safe to mix 0.3% salt with these products. I was not convinced as these products contain formalin. Anyone had try to mix salt with these products and with no casulty in results?

    Ykyap
  • lautslauts June 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Yap,

    I have tried 0.3% salt with Blagdon formalin and Atari formalin. Just make sure you have lots of aeration. Both salt and formalin are O2 striper. But be careful with higher concentrations of salt like 0.5% , not sure its safe. Maybe too taxing on kois. I have also tried PP 4 ppm with salt 0.3% . Kois will be ok , you might not be ....... if you are doing it first time :-D

    ts

  • SengChoonSengChoon June 2011
    Posts: 443
    Hi Yap,

    I have also tried 0.3% salt with Anti-Ulcer. As TS has been mentioned, make sure lots of aeration. As for 0.5%, I would not advise as it could be pushing it a little over the edge.

    As for the Anti-Parasite, it is ok up to 0.6% salt.
  • lautslauts June 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro SC,

    Antiparasite 0.6% ok .... new limit for me . Thanks for feedback :)
    Like i have come to believe , when comes to QT you are the sifu bro .

    ts
  • SengChoonSengChoon June 2011
    Posts: 443
    Bro TS,

    Thanks for your compliment. But I believe I am still learning and on the same path like all of you. It is just so happen that in my trials and errors I have tried this before and can share my experiences with the community.

    I believe that in order to make this hobby more enjoyable and to minimise the "oops" and the "ahhh", sharing our experiences will help alleviate our enjoyment and reduce our dissappointments. It is really no biggy.......So let us keep this momentum going as we progress through sharing to make this a hobby of choice.

    Cheers!
    SC


  • boykoiboykoi June 2011
    Posts: 186
    i read this morning about blagdon anti-ulcer should not be mixed with salt. and i read that blagdon intrepit is about the same as ocean free super koi anti-ulcer which i am using with salt a 0.3% at my qt. i immediately changed the whole water to take the salt away and redo the anti-ulcer with new water.

    my question is, has anyone used ocean free anti-ulcer?and is it with formalin cause it doesnt have any contents on the bottle.is this safe with salt?
  • DanleeDanlee June 2011
    Posts: 694
    Bro Boykoi,

    I think ocean free super koi anti-ulcer does not contain formalin. I have used it with salt up to 0.5% without any problem.
  • PH8PH8 June 2011
    Posts: 683
    I have a koi swimming in my QT right now with salt level at 0.51% salt level and with the recommended dose of Blagdon Interpet Anti Ulcer. I think the formalin content in the medication is probably quite low.
  • ykyapykyap June 2011
    Posts: 22
    Guys,

    Thanks for all your kind feedbacks and sharing. Reading from all the postings, it seems same to mix with salt. Will try it out.

    Thanks again
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2011
    Posts: 1,053
    Hi bro,
    I will personally use up to max 0.15% just to reduce the stress level or to reduce nitrite/ammonia effect if present. Most of the time without the salt at all. Long time ago, did quarantine with salt level around 0.4% and Blagdon Anti Ulcer and I noticed that the tossai hi was fading fast. I assumed it has caused significant stress to the tossai.
  • ykyapykyap June 2011
    Posts: 22
    Hi Ikankoikau,

    The reason why I am asking general opinion is because one of my kondo nisai, laden with eggs, was killed when I was told by a dealer that it is safe to mix anti ulcer with 0.3% salt.

    However, yesterday I mix 0.2% of salt with anti ulcer and all of kois are fine! I cannot answer why I had a casulty the 1st time.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2011
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro Yap,
    Maybe other elements played part on different pond/quarantine tank. As for my QT, I won't add salt more than 0.15%. I believed that Blagdon Anti Ulcer is powerful medication on it's own. I am not sure if adding salt will give any good effect. Maybe other hobbyist had good result from mixing it with salt.
  • boykoiboykoi June 2011
    Posts: 186
    i reduced my dosage on my QT at 0.15% salt only with ocean free ocean koi.the first time at 0.30%salt, i notcied that the kois scales are more defined and dry,i think the solution of anti-ulcer and high salt dosage is very stressful to koi. now they are more relaxed at 0.15.thanks for the tips guys
  • lautslauts June 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Boykoi,

    I think the recommendation and info sharing on using salt with formalin based medication is strictly with Blagdon's Antiparasite and AntiUlcer. I have used Atari antiparasite with salt too. Like Bro Paul mentioned the formalin dose in Blagdon is quite low hence spread over 5 applications. I increasing the dosage to fit over 3 days for my QT plus salt 0.3% , kois are fine with no stress signs. I think most are not familiar with Ocean Free products and combined with salt so be very careful , used at own risk 8-x .

    ts
  • ykyapykyap June 2011
    Posts: 22
    Hi Guys,

    Out of curiosity, the anti-ulcer stated on the bottle is for 2 applications 4 days apart. Is it safe to continue with 3rd dose on the 8th day and 4th dose on the 12th day?

    Ykyap
  • lautslauts June 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Yap,
    The treatment is completed in two dose application . Unless one of the dose was compromised eg by adding another new koi in QT , see no reason for 4th dose. Why do you need a 3rd and 4th dose? If medication does not work , better to try other medications with different formulation.

    ts
  • ykyapykyap June 2011
    Posts: 22
    Hi ts,

    There are 2 reasons why I am using the anti-ulcer.

    1) One of my koi is having ulcer.

    2) To treat my 2 kois that occasionaly "jump" and swim down with streams of bubbles.

    After the 2nd dose, the ulcer is still there whereas the "jumping' has reduced down. On the jumping, I have used prazi with no success. My thoughts of continuing the 3rd and 4th dose is to eradicate the "jumping"

    ykyap
  • lautslauts June 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    On ulcer , beside using anti ulcer , suggest to apply povidine iodine on site. Clear the ulcer of dead skin , loose scales and apply. Try that for 3 alternate days. I think you water could have high bact count. Have you wash your filters ?? Water change sufficient?

    Jumping ?? Another sign of high water bacteria count together with other weird bahaviours ... IMHO. Prazi does not kill bacteria , works on parasites only.

    have you PP before :O ?

    ts
  • ykyapykyap June 2011
    Posts: 22
    Hi ts,

    Occasionally 1 or 2 koi will get this ulcer. I have this koi jumping for few years and from my understanding from brothers of this forum and koi dealers you can't do much but I have not stopped trying to find a cure. Some brothers of this forum call this behavoiur gulping.

    I flush my filter and main pond daily (about 5%) and I do understand the importance of water quality. At times, things will go wrong for awhile. Thanks for your concern.
  • PH8PH8 June 2011
    Posts: 683
    Bro Yap, I would classify as jumping if the whole koi body actually leaves the water. In such cases, there is usually no bubble stream since the purpose of jumping was not to gulp air. If just breaking surface for the mouth to swallow some air, I would call it gulping as most others would. Gulping can be due to many factors, but quite a common one could be the early stage of sinking disease due to swim bladder problems.

    Just to share something related to bad bacteria/coliform. Over the last few months, I have had incidences of mouth rot on a couple of koi in my pond. Despite daily backflushing (roughly 7-8%) and my relatively low stocking rate, it still happens. And it can happen to any pond. I actually tested my water parameters and found the coliform count quite high despite my maintenance procedures. I never had mouth/fin rot problems in my pond before. I attribute the recent occurrences to the fact that I had stopped using Biotope due to its high cost. When I was using it every 2 weeks, I never had mouth/fin rot problems.

    As Brother David says, prevention is better than cure. After all, curing costs money too, and I find it so bothersome setting up my Qtank. If you look at Brother David's meticulous maintenance procedures, you would wonder why he still needs Biotope. But the fact is that there aren't really many viable options to reduce coliform counts in the water. Coliform will always be omnipresent in every pond, we just need to control its level. I have just ordered 8 litres of Biotope from Max Koi Farm. Feel that I cannot stinge on these things.

    Ps. Prazi is specifically targeted at gill and skin flukes and internal worms. It doesn't kill anything else. If you're trying to reduce bacterial count, Prazi would be an expensive option which won't work.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-06-22 12:13:33 am
  • ykyapykyap June 2011
    Posts: 22
    Hi Paul,

    Thanks for all your experiences. My koi will jump with half body out and swims down with streams of bubbles. I have tried prazi and it works for few days and came back again. I was told I have to live with it by one of the dealers and to him is not curable.

    Like I told TS, things will go wrong once a while. Me too, I find bringing out the koi for injection and toppical dressing are cumbersome and thats why I prefer treating the whole pond.
  • lautslauts June 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Yap,

    I think your koi is gulping rather than jumping. You mentioned prazi work for a while? Why not try QT the koi and apply prazi in 2 consecutive treatments ( 7 days apart) over a week. Salt to 0.5%. It works if gulping due to gill flukes , but flukes are difficult to rid as they are egg layers.

    Bro Paul,
    Just to share , my pond have never had outbreak of ulcers. There was a one case of new koi having mouth ulcer but that cleared with iodine in the pond , no QT. I don't use Biotope or even UV. Last week i had a 70cm female that jumped while i was taking its pict , one side was quite badly injured , damaged scales was raised the next day . It has completely healed this week. I do see injuries quite often in pond as it has few rough spots but never ended with ulcers outbreak. I wash my first filter and 2nd chamber every week with tapwater and 3rd mech filtration every two week. i only flush abt 5% or less every day and clean the mesh filter daily. Frankly i think washing my filters so often makes the difference. Alternative to that would be using something like biotope or messy PP. JMHO

    ts



  • SengChoonSengChoon June 2011
    Posts: 443
    Bro Yap,

    I believe you can use the Anti-Ulcer more than one treatment (i.e. 2 doses of 4 days each). Typically when kois develop ulcer they dont heal that fast... they heal but not always that fast. Kindly note that treatment for ulcers and quaratine are 2 very different application. So if you dont see the ulcer developing a whitish layer of skin, you can should still treat the koi.

    I have had kois with ulcer that heal after one month only. Off-course the speed of healing depends a lot on the water quality of your QT tank. What I normally do for e.g. anti-ulcer meds is after one treatment of anti-ulcer, I would normally PP may QT at the dose of 1g-1.5g per tonne for 6 hours. This is mainly to kill whatever free floating bacteria that may be purged by the koi as a result of medication and this also improves water quality. After PP, I will resume the anti-ulcer treatment (again 2 doses). Typically, I notice my fish heals much faster after doing this.

    As for the gulping koi, I can only think of 2 possible causes - flukes or bacteria gill disease. To confirm fluke, you need a microscope. Once it is certain tha fluke is not the cause, you can proceed with the anti-ulcer treatment as above as the meds also address bacteria gill disease. Again dont expect recovery with one to two weeks if the fish has been gulping for sometime already. Healing is a long process, especially for serious or long recurring diseases.

    Hope this helps bro.


    Post edited by SengChoon at 2011-06-24 09:49:36 pm
  • ykyapykyap June 2011
    Posts: 22
    Bro Seng Choon,

    Thanks for your kind advice. Will try out your way and hope it works.

    Thanks again.
  • paksengpakseng December 2012
    Posts: 42
    hi bro Seng Choon,

    I'm new here (just joined last month) ... 2 weeks ago I bought 2 kois from JK pond. 1 a kujaku and the other shusui.. both about 14 cms size.. QT in salt about 0.15% for 4 days as JK say actually no need but I did just in case. Released to pond all okay as fish were normal and new fish adapted well as they are eating heartily and not shy too. Then after another week backside itchy I decided to clean filter chambers since never cleaned for 14 months since pond built - (size 6 tons incl multi filter chambers gravity type JMs, corals and UV thrown in). Water condition was v good with young Kois and medium size ones doubling in size in couple of months. So I guess I became sw complacent and didnt allow the new kois more time to adapt .. Post cleaning, water para deteriorated as poops entered pond and needed a few hours to clear. Bomb the filter with salt gradually over 4 days to 0.25% then also added dimilin to rid some flashing. Only today then notice 3-4cm sore/ulcer on the poor kujaku at the area where I remember 1or 2 scales came off on its side betw stomach and tail during QT. So now put it back on QT with fresh water and added Blagdon anti ulcer and salt about .15% . Is this going to work ? Hope you can help. Thank you in anticipation.
  • paksengpakseng December 2012
    Posts: 42
    Hi Bro Seng Choon...

    unfortunately my kujaku flown back to Japan already the 2nd day of QT .. body bloated up I guess from water entering thru the broken skin as the salt level at .15 % is obviously inadequate ... I think shd be .30% to balance the fish body liquid.. my mistake out of fear that too much salt is bad... Very well lesson learnt.. But if I am wrong on this pls advise whoever with the knowledge .. now I noticed 2 of my kois (1 shushui bought together with the kujaku and another doibutsu have ulcer/laceration on side of body and the shuishui had ulcer on lips too.. so QT with anti-ulcer this time with salt level at .30% ... So far after 1 day they are still around so an improvement on the last experience.... Thank you one and all bros of the the koi loving family... sigh...
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar December 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Sorry Bro Pak Seng for the losses.

    Maybe you can start ur own thread with details of ur pond. How's ur QT setup bro? I can see lots of problems here, from pond to QT. QT with fresh water is definitely a no no. You should use pond water and daily water change 20%. you can read on qt procedure in this forum which would b very useful. Just my 2 cents :)
  • SengChoonSengChoon December 2012
    Posts: 443
    Sorry Bro Pak Seng for coming back to you so late as I just return from Japan after 2 weeks holiday. Sorry for your loss also.

    Based on the info you provided, I think most of your fishes develop internal bacteria diseases, which eventually led to having bloated stomachs. I believe these were due to poor water quality arising from the following:

    i) Filter cleaning using pipe water, instead of pond water
    ii) Feeding was not stopped to allow the filter to regenerate its good bacteria (after you wiped out the bacteria colony using chlorinated water)
    iii) Cause of fish flashing was wrongly diagnosed as parasite attack, instead of ammonia spike (FYI, ammonia spike will also cause fishes to spike)

    I believe the success of treating your fishes using anti-ulcer was NOT attributable to you using salt or not. Salt allows better absorption of medication but I believe your success is mainly attributable to the early diagnosis or detection of your fishes' ulcer or bloated stomach.
    Post edited by SengChoon at 2012-12-19 02:28:18 pm
  • paksengpakseng December 2012
    Posts: 42
    Hi bro Bthineshkumar and bro SengChoon
    sori for the late response.. busy with funeral and follow-up prayers rituals etc on the passing of my father-in-law (a centurion 103 years !! mentally alert no health issues except weak legs then last few months kena shingles then went downhill from then and finally went up there ).
    My goodness shdnt bore you with this.. anyway my QT is fibreglass tank 3x2x1.5 ft .. so far have treated anti ulcer 3rd time since no real progress on the ulcer.. but fish is otw active as i keep up with 10-20% water change daily and feeding v sparingly with food soaked with garlic juice which I think shd help. Now also notice one other koi in pond also having a slight abrasion looking dot on skin.. so will monitor that one to see if needed to put in qt too. Sigh. I have tested my water for PH, Ammonia, Nitrite and nitrate. PH 7.8, Amm 0, Nitrite <0.1 all seems ok except Nitrate which is +20mgl and am unable to lower. So I keep my salt level to .15 which I think shd help fish cope. But QT salt level is .25. Am I doing it right ? BTW wish all bros a healthy and prosperous 2013 !!

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