• mrcoollimmrcoollim April 2015
    Posts: 21
    hello sifu2...i find chagoi type of koi..hope all sifu2 can help :)
  • ikankoikauikankoikau April 2015
    Posts: 1,053
    Hi Mrcoollim,

    Me no sifu but plenty of hobbyist and dealers here can help you. Are you looking for Chagoi?
  • mrcoollimmrcoollim April 2015
    Posts: 21
    hi ikankoikau..tq for respond...yeah,i try to find chagoi because doesnt have any experience with this type...suddenly get excited with chagoi type...hahaha :)
  • ikankoikauikankoikau April 2015
    Posts: 1,053
    You can find plenty of chagois among the hobbyist or the dealers. I am pretty sure you have many good choices. Remember, chagoi is to lead. Look for a good leader ;-)
  • mrcoollimmrcoollim April 2015
    Posts: 21
    ikankoikau.. from my research green chagoi is the best leader among others right?
  • lautslauts April 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    It depends on individual kois, although generally chagois and karashis are more adventurous. It is all abt getting food.
  • KekwaKekwa April 2015
    Posts: 261
    <blockquote rel="mrcoollim">ikankoikau.. from my research green chagoi is the best leader among others right?</blockquote>

    Generally all chagois and karashis are good leaders....not necessary green chagois; at least from my own experiences and from my friends' koi ponds that I have come across :)
  • mrcoollimmrcoollim April 2015
    Posts: 21
    ooo...is magoi type also best to be the leader?
  • ikankoikauikankoikau April 2015
    Posts: 1,053
    Normally single colour kois have greater appetite which make them shy-less to go for the food. Chagoi and Karachi are well known for this. Sometimes even gosanke can play this role but not that obvious.

    Magoi originated from wild carp. Mainly use to get it's genetic huge and long body. I dont have experiance with Magoi. But personally, I think Magoi's blood line still has not established consistent good skin quality.
  • HDCuHDCu April 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    But Matsunosuke sanke which incorporates the Magoi bloodline has one of the best skin quality that can last much longer compared to other. Almost all sanke breeders have incorporated sanke Magoi bloodline over the years and many show great skin quality.
  • lautslauts April 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro HDCu,

    I was my understanding that Toshio Sakai infused magoi blood to incorporate the size and conformation back to his stock. There wasn't any issue with the skin quality of his sankes.. This from my read in Bito and Koi Kichi.

    ts
  • HDCuHDCu April 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro TS,

    I had the chance to talk with Peter Waddington and Toshio Sakai personally when they came to our country and stayed a short while to discuss the finer aspect of koi and filtration. Peter has great admiration to Mr. Toshio Sakai for his contribution to advancement in the breeding program. The success of Momotaro now is because Momotaros investment in the matsunosuke bloodline many years ago. Toshio said it took him like 15 years experimenting with Magoi bloodline to the point of achieving quality skin that develop slowly and last longer with the ability to grow jumbo thereby allowing the hobbyist to enjoy the koi longer. Of course like all breeders they do have different qualities of koi at different price points but the very best specimen of sanke they have grow not only big but the skin is exceptional even at an age where some other breeder sanke were already on the decline stage.
  • lautslauts April 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Thanks Bro HDCu for the first hand info. I do appreciate skin quality that last . Since we are on this subject , what do you consider good skin quality ?

    On Momotaros , with auction on today , i notice most of their auction tosais are showas , not much from sanke and kohaku.

    ts
  • HDCuHDCu April 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Ts,

    Mr. Toshi Sakai came over last year and conducted a seminar about skin quality.
    A koi with good skin quality is one with:
    1. Even and consistent coloration of beni regardless of color shade
    2. Luster, shine and color depth along with its genetics will determine how well the skin can hold up over the years. There are the very rare occassions(1 in 5 breeding seasons ) when a koi of exceptional shine, luster and color depth along with ability to grow would come along as such it is highly priced specimen.
    3. A koi skin that develop slowly over the years can last longer based on his experience.
    4. He is not concerned with sashi more than one scale as he knows that as the koi ages the sashi will tighten.
    5. For matsunosuke bloodline sanke, the less tejima and ojima (if possible none) when young is better.
    6. He has experimented with pairing a SFF bloodline with his sanke now to produce wider and girthier koi. However, while improvement has been made with girth, he has not seen yet skin quality of the highest standards.
    7. Their pink beni sanke now are much prized and envied by collectors and other farms because of its deep beni with exceptional luster which can last longer compared to pink beni of other farms.
    8. He can predict how long a particular beni of his sanke can last just by looking at the koi once it reaches less than a year old. Of course, this is based on his koi keeping skills.
    9. Some farms concentrate on young smaller fish as such most of their koi peak at just 3 to 5 yrs. In their farm, they concentrate not on getting a girthy koi or short term koi but more of a koi that hopefully its skin quality and body will peak at the same time when the koi reaches jumbo size.




    The video shows Toshi Sakai of INC koi farm returning my 80cm matsunosuke sandan yonsai to the pond after inspecting its skin quality.



    My sanke that Toshi inspected: typical original matsunosuke long body sanke with very soft orange young skin, deep wide fukurin with matsu gin. As per the breeder even at still yonsai at 80cm the koi have the ability to grow to more than 90cm with still good skin and can be enjoyed for more years to come. I have transfered her to a bigger dealer azukari pond with the hope that she grows even longer before she starts bulking up. I grew her from just a 22 cm tosai. As per Toshi explanation, the remaining sashi will disappear and the maruzume kiwa will sharpen and tighten while the orange shade will deepen to a more persimmon color as the koi finishes. This koi however will never have the girth of SFF or Dainichi but she will eventually gain girth once her growth lengthwise slows down. Btw, this particular koi is not really that expensive when I bought her as such other more expensive sankes of matsunosuke may have even higher skin quality than this one.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2015-04-17 08:31:48 pm
  • ikankoikauikankoikau April 2015
    Posts: 1,053
    Good discussion bro HDCu and bro LauTS.

    Bro HDCu, do you any photo of Magoi origin koi when it was tossai and progress to sansai or yonsai? It will be see and learn on the progress. Skin quality is not easy to judge when choosing a tossai. Even when nissai. On Magoi, I dont know if the breeders have introduced it for skin quality. Maybe something good came out which they themselves might not expected. Or it could be inherit from the Magoi's partner. Initially it was introduced mainly due to the body and stronger immune system. It's good to know that it has improved the skin quality.

    Hopefully one day we can have seminar on skin quality. The main problem will be on the translation which might not been explained in detail compare to the actual explanation in Japanese ;-)
  • lautslauts April 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Well done bro HDCu on growing the matsunosuke sanke . Great looking fukurin and gin . Do keep us updated as it grows to super jumbo 90cm+.

    To add on skin quality, bright white but soft translucent like silk . Skin and colour beni / sumi quality are different things. Not all good skin will have good colour. Skin is the canvas that colours are painted on. And when both skin and colour pigments comes together you get something special.

    Capt , another bigger problem would be getting the kois with great skin as specimen :-D .
    Seriously, reading about it and looking at the real thing are two different things. And i am not sure i have seen a top quality koi skin yet.

    ts







    Post edited by lauts at 2015-04-19 11:58:37 pm

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