Pepper's New Koi Pond Advice
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    I took another look at the froth.... Your water look slimy. It is due to ammonia and protein from your system.....

    Have heard of anyone using sulfur filtration to reduce nitrate in their koi pond?
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi Bro Harryyew,

    The green you see is the reflection of green wall algae under sunlight photograph without polarized lens. I assure you the water is very clear.

    I have removed the microfiber cloth to let more air penetrate the bakki thru use of forced fan cooling. I found it unnecessary now as my pond is already mature and I have found the right feeding quantity and maintenance of the eric system.

    When there is wall algae die off I find fine algae in my brushes. I noticed this sunlight is not enough to sustain wall algae growth. Now, there is no algae die off.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-12 04:31:31 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    This statement......."In Japanese mats that are heavily aerated, nitrifying bacteria populate while a thick much layer at the bottom may promote more.heterotropic bacteria, both good and bad."

    There..... the traditional system is a wonderful system already..... If we only know how to maintain it....,.,

    You are merely transferring or relocating the heterotropic bateria to the baiki...... How can that equate to synergetic bro.....
    Post edited by harryyew at 2014-07-12 04:14:19 pm
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Im not sure what you mean by "slimmy". There is no oil slick on the surface but reflection of sunlight. Some say a water that "shines" is what they are after. I am still figuring out what this means.


    I am not familiar with use of sulfer to combat nitrate issues.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-12 04:28:09 pm
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    There is limited transfer of bacteria from one area to another. Bacteria populate an area that they are conducive to them. Remove the condition and you change the population and kind of bacteria. Remove all aeration in a Jmat filter and expect population of one kind of bacteria competing against existing ones when it is heavily aerated.
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    <blockquote rel="HDCu">Hi Bro Harryyew,

    The green you see is the reflection of green wall algae under sunlight photograph without polarized lens. I assure you the water is very clear.

    I have removed the microfiber cloth to let more air penetrate the bakki thru use of forced fan cooling. I found it unnecessary now as my pond is already mature and I have found the right feeding quantity and maintenance of the eric system.

    When there is wall algae die off I find fine algae in my pond. I noticed this sunlight is not enough to sustain wall algae growth. Now, there is non..</blockquote>

  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Everyone,

    So I had a 2 hour sit down session with the pond contractor today. To be fair to him, the 1st set of drawing were just drafts and his latest set were more in line with what everyone has suggested. New set of drawings will hopefully be up in 2 weeks for everyone to critic again.

    A few updates

    1. Bottom drains (BD)
    - increased from 75 to 100mm or 4 inches
    - numbers 4
    - 5 degree down slope to BD
    - position - still open for discussion

    2. Skimmer
    - 1 to be added
    - position - still open for discussion

    3. Pond lights
    - 3W rationale - its a step down running on 12V so very little chance of electrocution
    - 6W possible - but will be 240V - swimming pool type - agreeable for change if required
    - position - still open for discussion

    4. Water Air jet return
    - swivel nozzle will be done by way of Jacuzzi type jet nozzle
    - so water current flow direction can be a little more flexible
    - position - still open for discussion

    5. Filter chambers
    Width is 1.2m
    - 1st - 1.2m x 1.0m - settlement
    - 2nd - 1.2m x 0.8m - coral chips & Biomat - Filter media still open for discussion
    - 3rd - 1.2m x 0.8m - coral chips & Biomat - Filter media still open for discussion
    - 4th - 1.2m x 0.6m - coral chips & Biomat - Filter media still open for discussion
    - 5th - 1.2m x 0.2m - mini settlement chamber
    - 6th - 1.2m x 1.0m - pump chamber
    - 7th - 1.2m x 0.8m - dry chamber - for external pump for skimmer

    6. Hydraulic Profile
    - there are drops - just not indicated in the previous drawings

    7. Filter Chamber BD
    - 100mm, 4 inch
    - 5 degree down slope to BD
    - 1st chamber - single outlet to open drain
    - 2nd and 3rd chambers - combined to single outlet to open drain
    - All the remaining chambers - combined to single outlet to open drain
    - double union joint ball valves - valve control near open drain

    8. UV filter
    - still need to do research

    9. DB electrical
    - will be located away from the the filter area - just need to find a spot that is suitable to the Architect

    10. Water feature
    - he confirmed sure will have algae running down the water path
    - need to discuss with Architect - I am sure it will be a great photo opportunity when it is 1st built, but months or years down the road, I'm not sure how pleasant its going to look

    11. Sand filter
    - possible, but he says I need to backwash every week otherwise the sand will harden... sounds like too much work and risk if I slack

    12. Pumps
    - forgot to discuss

    13. Tap water return
    - he suggested a multistage filter system for water, which includes activated carbon, similar to those use for home taps for purifying water
    - new water to be introduced into Chamber 2

    14. Airlift Water pump
    - he's never heard of it
    - he does not want to try something he has not done before - which is fair enough



    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-13 12:21:21 am
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    What I want to say is that your water appear thick..... not sure is that a correct term to use.

    I can see that your water has an acceptable clarity but it is still far from a 10 Nephelometric Turbidity Units (NTU) judging from the photo.

    Did you salt your pond or add refresh powder?
    Post edited by harryyew at 2014-07-12 05:50:41 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    .......what I understand is that the baiki thing actually like to have deprived O2 whereas you appear to be removing the micro fibre cloth to introduce O2.

    Are you promoting aerobic respiration there or anaerobic situation?
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper

    It seems you have made good progress........

    May I ask your rationale for the following:

    1) 4 BD?

    2) Coral chips spreading over the chambers

    3) mini settlement chamber

    4) Tap water to 2nd chamber

    5) Those double union joint ball valves (assuming they will be providing industrial grade)

    The pumps sizing is important bro.....

    It practically dictate your pond turnover, your filtration detention time, head loss allowable in your system and the drawdown of your water level from chambers to chambers.

    Check with him whether he is providing submersible type or at grade type. Their performance is different.

    Cheers



  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I know what thick water is. I have seen it in dealers pond where koi are able to grow with amazing coloration and shine. Sometimes I wish mine was like that unfortunately its not.

    I have also seen hobbyist pond with zero readings of everything including nitrates. Filter never cleaned except twice a year. No water change but pond very clear. Koi skin were in poor condition. Koi grow very very slow.

    I have never designed my pond to achieve super transparent crystal clear water. That is not my aim. My aim is to grow high quality jumbo gosanke with still good skin and body conformation in my pond.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Judging from your report card..... your lois growth rate very the good. Does koi your develop secondary hi..... Mine do and I am not sure is that a good sign or bad. Please share with me your understanding.

    On the baikki thing..... How do you know you have "Facultative Anaerobe Organisms" cultivated there?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Secondary Hi is the result of genetics, food and environment.

    I feed 50% fd color and I dont have at present problems with secondary hi appearing put out of nowhere. In some koi secondary hi can be faint when young which disappears like sashi when the koi get older and the shiroji thickens up to cover it. The problem is when you feed fast acting color food in a colder water and low Ph low alkalinity water as the beni intensifies and can depending on genetics come out sooner before the shiroji thickens. There are some brand of color food that I will not touch as other hobbyist swear while it is fast acting, yellowing and secondary hi is a problem. In Japan, breeders stop feeding color before it ruins the shiroji in concrete ponds. Stop feeding and now the with advent of sakihikaris superwhite help thicken the shiroji. Of course there are just koi that really have lots of evident secondary hi to begin with and these secondary Hi are genetically program to intensify before its shiroji thickens to cover it.

    With regards to bakki, this depends on what media one use. If one just use bioballs or japmat in the bakki setup, chances are nitrifying bacteria populate as there is lots of air diffused in the media. Once muck develops on top of the that media, chances are another set of bacteria will spring up. This may be good or bad depending on a lot of factors such as how thick waste accumulates. Now if its media like sintered glass, crystal bio, pumice stone or bacteria house is place, one creates.an environment for facultative bacteria to populate. Again these media promote lower oxygen levels and not no oxygen levels in their inside cavities. Momotaro in developing bacteria house did several studies on the "right population" nitrifying and facultative bacteria that can coexist. Sintered glass media manufacturer warn to prevent the media cavities from blocking that can result in harboring bad bacteria instead or lower the efficiency of the media. This can be done by a good mechanical prefilter. Question is now where does facultative bacteria comes from at the start or seed. I think it is seeded in the modern koi food and intestinal bacteria found in the gut of the koi. Do remember bad bacteria can also remove nitrates however bad bacteria weakens and test the resistance of koi. Only thing difference good facultative bacteria is harmless while bad bacteria can harm the koi.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-12 06:56:56 pm
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117

    "....what I understand is that the baiki thing actually like to have deprived O2 whereas you appear to be removing the micro fibre cloth to introduce O2. 

    Are you promoting aerobic respiration there or anaerobic situation?"


    The problem of the filter polyester wool is that it prevents air from passing thru the first layer of the bakki. My fans are overhead fans and by removing the filter wool, the air passes thru along with showered watee thru the stainless perforated sheet. The water dispered to the stainless creates a better cooling effect which result in a cooler air in between the first and second layer compared to ambient air. It does not prevent established facultative bacteria from leaving their space inside the cavities of the media.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Thank you for your feedback. I will have to chance my koi dietary as I don't like the way their secondary hi is appearing randomly especially at the tail on the kohaku......

    Any comments on bro pepper proposed design?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper

    7th - 1.2m x 0.8m - dry chamber - for external pump for skimmer

    Can you please elaborate further on this setup?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I am unable to comment on the pond design as the irregular shape long but short width water is very difficult to filter and grow large koi. However I do think it is still possible given the "right" way it is done. I think its best that I wait for the final design layout, pump specification, aeration, etc before I can comment. For example: 3" inch pipe not necessary bad compared to 4" pipe if 4" pipe bottom drain does not draw in waste to settlement area. If pipe all 4 inch and water pump not strong enough then bottom drain farthest from the settlement area is just useless thereby waste most far from the settlement chamber will collect waste at the bottom of the pond. Uncollected waste will make water quality bad or green eventually to compensate. Of which owner will need to resort to vacuuming and lots of unnecessary UV. Increasing the pump size needs to be equated with filter size. Personally I would just go for just two sets of two chamber filters which is much simpler. 2 bd each going to one filter set of 0.6m x 1 meter settlement and brush chamber(just 2 rows of brush is enough) and then it goes to the next chamber of 4 meters using horizontal flow. It can easily contain 5 whole japanese mats subdivided into 8 sets for it to be light weight and easier to pull out if necessary. I do not agree also filter pit need to be deeper than pond. When does one drain the whole pump anyway except if there is no koi anymore. Deep filter pit is harder to clean the waste to while more water is unnecessary.. Just 20 inches to 28inches deep is enough. I would then add 150 lpm of aeration for EACH of the filter sets. Beside in the event the drain pipe is accidentally not connected, one does not drain the whole pond and accidentally kill the koi.. At the end of the bio filter, an external high efficiency pump like one use in Japan or Sequence pump to save of electricity can be attached with a valve to close. All in all, what is needed for each filter chamber is just 12 brushes, 4 jmats and just flushing and jetspray of tightly packed brushes everyday. For the other filter set another 12 brushes packed in 3 rows and for the bio just 2 biomats (heavily aerated) and some aerated oyster shells (do not use coral chips). For UV, either submerged or overhead filter placed in settlement area is needed. For return, I do not agree on the use of "jets" as these are unreliable and just weakens the flow of the pump. Just correct placement of air diffusers and proper working condition of bottom drain is enough to circulate the water. All return can just be directly nearest the filter area. With skimmer located farthest from return pipes.


    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-12 10:53:53 pm
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Bro harryyew,

    1. 4 BD
    - he says it will never choke
    - if everyone thinks 3 is better than 4, I can always speak to my contractor again.

    2. Coral chips spread over chambers
    - don't know why?
    - I am quite sure I can change the configuration

    3. Tap water to 2nd chamber
    - "clean" pure water into 2 so that it gets mixed into the "pond" water as early in the cycle as possible.
    - however, I am now questioning the rationale for having filtered tap water into the pond.

    a) Firstly it will be costly to fit the filter system in. Perhaps for my kitchen tap for drinking water.

    b) Secondly, if it rains, impure unfiltered water is going to get dumped into the pond anyway.

    4. Double union joint
    - he says will never clog up as he can unscrew before and after the joint - makes sense?

    5. Mini Settlement Chamber see next picture
    - ok maybe mini settlement chamber is not the right term
    - it just looks like the 1st settlement chamber with nothing inside
    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-13 05:52:35 pm
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-13 10:49:54 am
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Bro harryyew,

    I believe the that's what the dry chamber is for.

    I will ask more about pumps next time I see him. All I know is that he said he was given me a 3 phase pump, so it will be more efficient.
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Bro HDCu,

    I hope you will be able to help improve my system once the more detailed drawings are out.

    I find your suggestion very interesting. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Current set up, multi chamber filter as above.

    Alternative
    - split the chambers equally in the middle and run 2 separate systems.
    - 4 BDs - 2 BDs to each settlement chamber
    - last chamber for pumps - running 2 separate pump systems to return the water back to main pond
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Pepper,

    The purpose of 2 pumps is duplication and a more efficient flow. If one pump breaks, you still have one pump left to sustain pond filtration while you fix the other one. The reason why there is no need IMO for multiple chamber is filter space is small. Multiple chamber consumes a lot of wall space in between. 0.6mwidth x 4m length x .7m depthwidth accounts for 1.6 tons of water which can be dumped and clean once every two weeks to once every month. If you have two sets then thats already 3.2 tons excluding the smaller settlement/brush chamber which can be easily dumped twice a week. To achieve strong flow and enough filter media contact of 5 mins minimum the size of each pump should not exceed 20000liter per hour. If you have two pumps then you can have a total flow of 40000 liter which is more than enough to provide good quality water. A high efficiency pump that provides 20000 lpm flow will just consume 250wats. So total consumption including 2 20wats Uv and 3 100LPM airpumps will be around 840 watts. You can grow around a 12 koi to large size already. Personally I prefer the tried and testes Sequence pumps made in the US if available. This pumps last for years without any problems and does not generate heat to the water as its an external pump.
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi HDCu,

    I thought you meant this, (dimensions in mm)

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16090/image.jpg

    then to

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16091/image.jpg

    I actually thought it was a good idea
    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-13 11:36:51 pm
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Currently I am supposed to get to 2 (1.5kW) submersible pumps
    - they are supposed to run on 12 hour shifts - controlled by timer
    - so at any one time only 1 pump is running
    - if 1 pump fails there will be water circulation through the filters within 12 hours.

    Two parallel filter system
    - probably not what HDCu had in mind but an interesting idea.
    - I understand that more walls means less water volume, can't this be compensated by having a deeper chamber or using a thinner central partition, eg plastic/fiberglass sheet to split each chamber into 2?
    - if 1 pump fails, then at least half the volume of the pond is still being filtered

    Can anyone help me understand the relationship between BDs, Strong Flow, Adequate Filter contact time and Pump size?

    Questions

    1. Bottom Drains
    a) Use / benefits of BD
    - clear fish waste and other rubbish from main pond
    - more "suction power" = better clearance of rubbish from main pond?
    - faster turnover = faster clearance of rubbish?

    b) Suction Power of BDS - what is it dependent on?
    - number of BDs - more BDs less suction power?
    - diameter of BD - larger diameter less suction power?
    - distance of BD to 1st chamber - longer distance less suction power?
    - power of pump to return water back to pond - less powerful pump less suction power?

    2. Strong Flow
    - HDCu mentioned this in the above post. Is this similar to the suction power of the BD? And hence dependent on the all the above questions related to suction power of BD?
    - Filter media - type and density will affect flow?
    - Chamber construction, eg ERIC vs traditional up & down that I have, will affect flow

    4. Pumps
    a) Any difference between external pump and submersible pumps? Now that I am having a dry chamber for a external pump for the skimmer, I can explore having an external pump for the water return

    b)Which is better?
    - Running 1 stronger (100%, eg 1kW) pump to 6 return jets to main pond or 2 weaker (50%, eg 0.5kW) pumps to 6 jets, 3 jets from 1 pump?
    - Running from 1 pump chamber as is my existing proposed setup or running from 2 pump chambers in the case of the Two Parallel Filter system?

    5. Filter Media Contact
    - the ideal time is 5min?
    - so too fast or too slow is no good?

    Thanks

    Sorry, getting a bit confused again.... :/
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Bro TomyC

    very informative and interesting article.

    Thanks
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good evening bro pepper...

    Sorry for for the late reply......

    You are now asking all the right questions to a better pond.....

    Before you go into the micro of the matter...... please read this thread as bellow

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/908/lots-of-questions-on-pond-design./p1

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper

    I revisit your earlier diagram 1st put up for discussion.

    Is it possible for you to allocate your filtration chambers configuration spanning along the 5.55m and the 5.07m. These positions are the most practical position for laying out your pipe works (Both supply and return).

    Please advise.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Your pond configuration plus your filtration chambers eventually will have a total volume of around 23m3 to 25m3.

    I would recommend for your consideration that a turnover of 2 hours is a good consideration.
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Bro Harryyew,

    Thanks. I will have some more bedtime reading material tonight - the tread you suggested has 11 pages.

    The location that you suggested was the original position that the Architect proposed. However, the pond sump space that was allocated then was only 1m x 1m. Which I believe would been enough to fit a small filter for a non-fish landscape pond.

    That area is actually the walkway to my main door. I don't particular want to walk over my fish poo everyday. Hence I asked for the filter system to be moved to 1 of the 3 positions I suggested in my 1st few post.
    Also there will be issue of cleaning the system which I believe will be messy, so I figured moving the filter system out would be better.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Now let's us revisit what have been discussed.....

    1) too many bottom drain. this make the "suction" effect low.

    Ans = One needs to understand that one is not pulling the water through the system. Each bottom drain inlet has a certain effective surface coverage area.

    2) bottom drain scatter all over the pond will create a lot of dead spots.

    Ans = It is a perception only if your water is not return proper. When there is water current introduce the dead spots are unlikely.

    3) bottom drain piping to filter should minimise bend. putting at the T-junction area, you should be able to run a straight pipe.

    Ans = True and a good advise too.

    4) bend will trap dirt and grow mould/gel.

    Ans = Only for small pipe diameter and the flow velocity is low. That is why we need to find the appropriate number of pipe return for a flow velocity somewhere nearer to self cleansing velocity and will promote a laminar flow and also frequent flushing out the rubbish.

    5) Each filter chamber should have a individual discharge pipe.

    Ans = Very good advise and I highly recommend you to ensure this is constructed.

    6) Valve in dry chamber is difficult to operate, and valve tend to crack after a while like 1-2 years.

    Ans = Not those industrial grade valve. Agreed the Cheepo plastic type selling at the hardware shops will crack.

  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper

    hahaha.... Not all the pages are relevant to your situation. I just want you to have a bit of understanding on the fluid mechanic.

    That area is actually the walkway to my main door.I don't particular want to walk over my fish poo everyday. Hence I asked for the filter system to be moved to 1 of the 3 positions I suggested in my 1st few post.

    I will fully agree with you on that.....

    Would you have problem if let say you have one set of filtration at Location 1 and the other at Location 2.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    1. 4 BD
    - he says it will never choke
    - if everyone thinks 3 is better than 4, I can always speak to my contractor again.

    Answer = 4 is about correct but will need to check on the pump return capacity to allow adequate flow velocity in the bottom drain. We shall check this later.

    2. Coral chips spread over chambers
    - don't know why?
    - I am quite sure I can change the configuration

    Answer = Don't use Coral so much, oyster better and it should be place after the media chamber. We need the acidic from the bio activity to dissolve the oyster shell.

    3. Tap water to 2nd chamber
    - "clean" pure water into 2 so that it gets mixed into the "pond" water as early in the cycle as possible.
    - however, I am now questioning the rationale for having filtered tap water into the pond.

    Answer = Place water supply at the 1st chamber. Have a carbon filter (10" diameter and 44" tall type enough).It will last you years. It will removes all the free chlorine and chemical impurities in the city water to the pond and save you the headache to throw sodium thiosulfate.....

    a) Firstly it will be costly to fit the filter system in. Perhaps for my kitchen tap for drinking water.

    Answer = hehehe..... Bro.... Think.... koi happy and health will also make you happy and your whole family. Cannot equate cost to it. It will last you years.

    b) Secondly, if it rains, impure unfiltered water is going to get dumped into the pond anyway.

    Answer= Rains water is good. It is part of a natural cycle. Your system will be able to handle it.

    4. Double union joint
    - he says will never clog up as he can unscrew before and after the joint - makes sense?

    Answer = Unless it is industrial grade. Don't worry.... there are many type of valves for your consideration. It depends your accessibility to it.

    5. Mini Settlement Chamber see next picture
    - ok maybe mini settlement chamber is not the right term
    - it just looks like the 1st settlement chamber with nothing inside

    Answer = If with nothing in it. I think no point to have it.... if by the time your water reach here and it is turbid..... mean the 1st settlement chamber performance has totally failed! You are doomed and in big trouble. Mean weekly or biweekly cleaning already. The water in the pump chamber should look clear clear to you one.
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi Bro Pepper,

    First of all, I do not understand the use of 1.5kw submersible pumps. What is the flowrate of such pump, are these pumps designed to run 24/7, do these pump generate heat? Seems to be kind of an overkill. If I am going to use 1.5 kw pump I expect my flowrate to be at least 120,000 liters per hour. I use just 2 pumps and each pump only generates 280 watts but churns put 5800gallon per hour and can be use 24/7.

    Heres some recent pictures of how a very famous Japanese breeders design their concrete pond to give you an idea. Very simple. Very durable. Very energy efficient and will be very effective to grow very high quality koi in a greenhouse.

    Go to facebook and visit Koitaxi Co., Ltd. Click their photo album of Yamamatsu Koi farm (Matsunosuke) Koi Pond build. About 40 very nice pictures that show how they build a pond by themselves. I believe the filter pumps they use is only 1/2 hp.
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Bro TomyC

    Here is the condition of my oyster shells.
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16079/image.jpg

    </blockquote>

    And have you checked what's underneath the mats that are underneath the oyster shells? If not in the same chamber, then earlier chamber with mats?

    And since you like technical stuff, please share your comments on this:
    http://anoxicfiltrationsystem.blogspot.sg/2014/02/part-2-thermodynamics-substances-bead.html
    Post edited by TomyC at 2014-07-14 12:12:19 am
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro TomyC

    Yes.... I have checked what is underneath the mats. It is cleaned and below this where I housed my pumps. Water is crystal clear..... My pumps rest on the versicell platform to support it.

    I flush the pump chamber bi-yearly and there is very little fines coming out from the standpipe.

    No... I don't really like technical stuff.... it just happen that I have been trained and is part of my profession. hehehe....Ok. I will have to read. I have read about Anoxic filtration before. It is a very interesting biological treatment and will comments if any after I read the article.

    Cheers
    Post edited by harryyew at 2014-07-14 12:29:38 am
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Good evening Bro TomyC

    Yes.... I have checked what is underneath the mats. It is cleaned and below this where I housed my pumps. Water is crystal clear..... My pumps rest on the versicell platform to support it.

    I flush the pump chamber bi-yearly and there is very little fines coming out from the standpipe.

    Cheers</blockquote>

    I'm surprised that all the pond debris magically disappear in your pond.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good morning bro TomyC

    Not disappear..... Most of the wastes are accumulated in the 1st chamber and 2nd chamber. By the time the water reached the pump chamber. It is clean already. Only those super fines will settle there and it is at the bottom of the pump chamber.

    I use a bigger mesh size than yours to house the shells.

    Cheers.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good Morning Bro pepper

    Did you have an opportunity to discuss the cross sectional layout I have proposed for your consideration as in Page 3 of this thread? That is basically what you need to consider......

    The only remaining elements of the design that need confirmation are as follows:

    1) Number of BD pipes and its inlets. The filtration chamber location and its detention time. The pond turnover rate.

    2) The hydraulic gradient of the water mechanic. (i.e. estimated drawdown from chamber to chamber.

    3) The type of settlement provision you would like. Brushes will be the most primitive type. I am using settling tubes with good result. There is commercial Settling tube which has a higher efficacy than what I have custom made.

    4) whether to have the coral cum oyster wheels chamber and the quantity to provide.

    5) Skimmer provision and its construction thereof

    6) The type of water pumps and its capacity thereof. Air pumps and its piping arrangement. Type of air diffusers to incorporate.

    7) Whether to have standpipes or valves operated for discharging purposes in the dry chamber. Automated or manual.

    8) Electrical provision and its components. Emergency power supply? Type of power inverter.

    9) Using UV lights and its power rating for pond return water sterilisation purposes.

    10) To have the sand filter with automatic back flushing facility.

    11) The type of pump to be used at the dry chamber to discharge to external drain.


    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Consider getting the "Brentwood" tube settlers. They are defintely more efficient and easy to install.

    Forget using the brushes......

    Plan for 1st chamber monthly cleaning exercise and all others maintenance....... 4 months interval.



  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper

    Are you planning to have your pond internal surfaces to be fiberglass coated to black in colour? It will gives a good contrast to view the koi and the eventual carpet of algae on the wall and floor will just blend in later.

    My recommendation is that you should including the filtration chamber.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    On the Hydro Air jet thing...... You need powerful pumps to drive it.

    Koi don't like to be jetted for sure. hehehe.....

  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Good morning bro TomyC

    Not disappear..... Most of the wastes are accumulated in the 1st chamber and 2nd chamber. By the time the water reached the pump chamber. It is clean already. Only those super fines will settle there and it is at the bottom of the pump chamber.

    I use a bigger mesh size than yours to house the shells.

    Cheers.</blockquote>
    I see, so the 1st and 2nd chambers are dirty. I assume only the remaining chambers are doing the bio-filtration work then?

    Also, water clean by the eye doesn't mean it's truly clean. For example, the toilet bowl looks clean, but you wouldn't drink from it would you?
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Consider getting the "Brentwood" tube settlers. They are defintely more efficient and easy to install.

    Forget using the brushes......

    Plan for 1st chamber monthly cleaning exercise and all others maintenance....... 4 months interval.



    </blockquote>
    Why clean it at 4 months if the water looks clean?

    My concern is with the lack of maintenance due to the tedious processes required to do so.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2014-07-14 12:47:32 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Currently I am supposed to get to 2 (1.5kW) submersible pumps


    - they are supposed to run on 12 hour shifts - controlled by timer

    Ans= Not only a timer..... you need a switchover feature in your electrical supply.

    - so at any one time only 1 pump is running

    Ans = Remember to have swing valve to prevent back flow on the standby pump.

    - if 1 pump fails there will be water circulation through the filters within 12 hours.

    Ans = Good consideration. I have mine changed over every 6 hours.

    Two parallel filter system
    - probably not what HDCu had in mind but an interesting idea.

    Ans= Not parallel but two sets at different locations. You just divide the media accordingly.
    Automatically you have a back up filtration system. Cleaning also easy and on a rotational basis. Cantik!!!

    - I understand that more walls means less water volume, can't this be compensated by having a deeper chamber or using a thinner central partition, eg plastic/fiberglass sheet to split each chamber into 2?

    Ans = I cast and slotted a 50mm thick RC panel for the partitioning. It saves a lot of space. Easy to construct and install. I think the deeper chamber rational is to create steep funnel at the outlet and to house the filtration media. Deeper mean at the pump chamber you allow for the suction head loss. More expensive construction cost too as shoring or bigger open cut is required for safety purposes during construction.

    - if 1 pump fails, then at least half the volume of the pond is still being filtered.

    Ans = Yes, if you split the chamber.


    Can anyone help me understand the relationship between BDs, Strong Flow, Adequate Filter contact time and Pump size?

    Ans = See the link previously provided.


    Questions

    1. Bottom Drains
    a) Use / benefits of BD
    - clear fish waste and other rubbish from main pond

    Ans = Yes

    - more "suction power" = better clearance of rubbish from main pond?

    Ans = Not suction. For 4" pipe it is generally believe that its coverage is around 1.5m diameter.

    - faster turnover = faster clearance of rubbish?

    Ans = Faster turnover = more pump power = more $$$$ = turbulent flow if your chambers sizing tai betul. Coral and oyster very the dirty and etc but then the ambient ammonia and nitrite can be lower down. For your 17 tons pond water...... I think your ambient ammonia and nitrite not a issue at all unless your pump totally failed.

    b) Suction Power of BDS - what is it dependent on?
    - number of BDs - more BDs less suction power?

    Ans = Not suction. Think of Bernouli principle or Potential to Kinetic energy. It is dependable on the Discharge you are returning back to the main pond and the losses in the Bottom pipes. However.....Having more BD, less drawdown at the 1st chamber. The flow velocity within the pipe will be lover.

    - diameter of BD - larger diameter less suction power?

    Ans = Lower flow velocity. The amount of discharge remain the same.... Q=V xA.

    - distance of BD to 1st chamber - longer distance less suction power?

    Ans= Yes... more frictional loss

    - power of pump to return water back to pond - less powerful pump less suction power?

    Ans = Yes.

    2. Strong Flow

    - Filter media - type and density will affect flow?

    Ans = Yes. But we can allow for provision to allow continuity of flow.

    - Chamber construction, eg ERIC vs traditional up & down that I have, will affect flow

    Ans= Not pro for Eric system. It is noting much more than manipulating the mind. Never ending river row system.... hehehe...... No way in a re-circulatig water system. Traditional up & down will be fine. Any tom, dick and harry also know. Service and buying spare parts also easy.

    4. Pumps
    a) Any difference between external pump and submersible pumps?

    Ans = Yes. For a start = NOISE, HEAT and AESTHETIC.

    Now that I am having a dry chamber for a external pump for the skimmer,

    Ans = This part I still don't understand what you have in mind? Skimmer is pipe to the 1st chamber by gravity feed.

    b)Which is better?
    - Running 1 stronger (100%, eg 1kW) pump to 6 return jets to main pond or 2 weaker (50%, eg 0.5kW) pumps to 6 jets, 3 jets from 1 pump?

    Ans = The later configuration is better but I doubt the lower pump capacity will have enough head to drive the Hydro Air Jet. 1/2" or 1" type?

    - Running from 1 pump chamber as is my existing proposed setup or running from 2 pump chambers in the case of the Two Parallel Filter system?

    Ans = Of course the latter is idea and better. Go for it.

    5. Filter Media Contact
    - the ideal time is 5min?

    Ans = around 15min

    - so too fast or too slow is no good?

    Ans = you are correct!!!

  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    How often do you change you engine oil and transmission oil?

    Mine.... Every 25k for engine oil and the transmission oil is life time....

    A good system must have the flexibility, be accommodative and forgiving....
    There is no point to be enslaved to the Daily cleaning exercise. The Key word is Koi "Appreciation" not Koi " Enslavement"..... Hehehe....

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Let me give you another example......

    It is related to aesthetic outcome of subject matter......

    Why use a Manual camera or lens when the Automatic of its is available?
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Bro TomyC

    How often do you change you engine oil and transmission oil?

    Mine.... Every 25k for engine oil and the transmission oil is life time....

    A good system must have the flexibility, be accommodative and forgiving....
    There is no point to be enslaved to the Daily cleaning exercise. The Key word is Koi "Appreciation" not Koi " Enslavement"..... Hehehe....

    Cheers</blockquote>

    I change the engine oil every 5000km, and transmission oil annually.

    Yes, a good system is flexible. You can clean it as frequent as you like (easily), according to your feeding rate, stocking rate, and any additional environment pollutants.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    There..... broTomyC......

    We have reached a common understanding....... It is a matter of preference and to one level of confidence in the system........

    cheers
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro. Harryyew,

    Koi enslavement? Haha. I suppose if one keeps dog in the house, you would recommend that the area where the dog pee and poo be cleaned just once a month as well instead of daily or else we will become enslaved to pet dogs. I have only one dog and have the maid clean the poo and pee area EVERYDAY, take the dog a bath and brush the hair to avoid tangles weekly and once a month take the dog to the groomer. I suppose I can also ask the maid to clean the pee and poo area once a week, take the dog a bath once a month and bring it to the groomer once a year BUT I do not want that routine.

    There are serious koi keepers that spend millions to raise koi to compete at the highest level of competition. There are then ordinary koi collectors and there are the pond garden hobbyist. I simply do not agree that it is ok to say that hobbyists who compete and have a chance to win major awards in koi shows but spend a lot on high quality koi and perform daily , twice weekly or once a week maintenance in their filters and water changes of 2 to 10% daily to raise and develop their koi to their best potential to be already enslaved to their hobby or koi.

    Likewise, I do not also bother to change the ways of garden pond keepers.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-14 02:35:28 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Hehehe.......short answer is....

    Obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) lah.......

    Don't believe ask a doctor for his/her opinion......

    Cheers
    Post edited by harryyew at 2014-07-14 05:33:23 pm
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,


    I once sold a nice male growout kohaku that won as best kohaku in a grow out contest to a good friend who had a nice small pond setup. Before I sold it, I asked him to remove or dispose many of his koi. All have not grown for the longest time. I inspected his pond and got some measurements. Zero ammonia, zero nitrite and zero nitrate. No water change ever. Water is even clearer than mine.Filter just cleaned twice a year. He feeds very very little per day as instructed by his pond builder. Everytime he pays someone to clean filter it take a whole day and at least 2 bucket load of koi shit.

    He asked me how big and how old already are my other koi and how often I clean and change water. I showed him some pictures and I told him the reasons of my routine and he shook his head in disbelief and told me how OCD I am. I told him the routine of japanese breeders who prepare their koi in the highest level of competition and how they employ very low stocking levels in big concrete ponds, flush filters daily, control Ph, control oxygen levels, control water temperatures, employ lots of hi tech devices ,have a very good water change regimen and monitor the kind and quantity of what they feed to their competitive koi depending on the needs taking into consideration the effects on the skin quality and body conformation of the koi. After hearing that he said to me that was even more OCD. I agree!
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Hahaha...... You are recirculating the facts...... Hehehe......

    Now..... If we can have our koi in good growth, with good skin structure, with good body structure and they are healthy...... Why need to be OCD?

    To me..... The art and science to koi keeping is not by having OCD..... Hehehe

    Winning a few growth out competition does not prove anything..... I am sure there are my champions kois living in many koi hobbyist homes that when they are display......will put ours behind the line....

    Koi keeping and appreciation is supposed to be entertaining, enjoyable and a pleasure to look at the koi and appreciate their intricate meld of colour and form that gives every fish its individuality and charm........ It is not for competition. Hehehe.....

    JUMBO KOI....... To me, all koi have the potential to develop....... There is no such thing as the perfect koi! To me it is subjective and relative......it is individual taste that dictates its value......

    The question is then why should we be so caught up in these "JUMBO KOI" syndrome?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Growing high quality jumbo gosanke is a goal of many serious koi farms and koi hobbyist including myself . Not all koi have the potential nor not all koi keepers have the ability. The challenge to grow high quality jumbo gosanke is a testament to the skill level of serious keeper and is what motivates many to enjoy and continue the hobby. Meanwhile competition thru koi shows is what makes the hobby continue to grow. Dealers need koi shows as well to improve the quality eye of hobbyist. Quality with regards to skin, color, shine, body conformation and lastly pattern can be ranked which is why breeders are able to price koi in different brackets. The need for continual improvement is what keeps nishikigoi hobby strong until today. Those who can only afford a standard quality 15 years ago can easily get a higher quality quality nowadays for the same price.

    Like all hobbies, whether its from stamp collecting to car collecting, you can enter at your comfort level. Some want to grow in the hobby and increase their spending or seriousness and some are just contended based on their comfort zone. In koi keeping raising gosanke to 70cm nowadays is no challenge, the challenge is growing them to 85cm still with high quality skin and good body conformation and being able to keep their quality for at least another 3 years or more.

    Techniques of koi keeping varies as well from one koi keeper to another. There is no right or wrong as long as one achieves his goal.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-14 08:29:47 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    If we only decide to work in harmony with Mother Nature.......instead of doing battle with her, then draining and cleaning our pond should not be on a daily basis....... Hehehe.....

    Define what is High quality gosnake......


  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Nishikigoi is the continual invention and intervention of man and not by mother nature. If mother nature would dictate the beauty of koi now would return in a short time to the ugly basic carp. Concrete ponds nor mudponds are neither mother nature but man made. Selective breeding, force culling, hi quality feeds, all are not what mother nature is about. So I suggest we leave mother nature out of the nishikigoi hobby. Often times, I see post of garden pond keepers and how they marvel how they have "copied" mother nature with lots of bog plant filter, no filtration, rocks on the bottom of the liner pond, etc. After a year or two, they encounter lots of problems and wonder why "mother nature" has failed them.

    I do not understand why you need a definition of high quality nishikigoi from me. I have already told you it will be based on the combination of skin, potential, size, conformation, and pattern which is the only one that is subjective. From what I have learned so far, the more high quality you see in actual the more discriminating will be of your perception with regards to your definition of quality. Whether that discriminating taste translate to your spending limit will depend on oneself.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-14 08:58:01 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Ok. We shall leave Mother Nature aside. Hehe.....

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Bro HDCu

    Ok. We shall leave Mother Nature aside. Hehe.....

    Cheers</blockquote>
    I don't think we can leave Mother Nature aside if we want to understand how to have a good recirculating system for our koi.

    In a natural river system, new water comes in and debris exits the mouth of the river 24/7.

    One should not need to stress over the cleaning process or on how to improve the system once it's built. There are some simple principles that will make the koi-keeping hobby enjoyable.

    a) Koi likes good 'new' water.
    b) Koi does not like any changes. As little time without the pump on, or changes in water quality, or too much 'new' water.

    1)Remove debris as frequently as possible with as little water loss, use, and time required.
    There are expensive high-tech versions from rotary drums filter (RDF), to belts, sieves, to simple ones like DIY boxes with mats. They all follow the SAME concept of removing the debris as soon as one can with minimal effort and water loss.
    http://anoxicfiltrationsystem.blogspot.sg/2013/06/pre-filters-and-pros-and-cons-about-them.html?q=mechanical

    2)Keep bio-filtration media as clean as possible. Once the media is clogged, the bio-filtration capability drops. As such, one needs to be absolutely sure almost no dirt passes through the mechanical filtration onto the bio-media, for e.g. after a 40micron RDF, or is able to see and clean the bio-media with pond water, quickly and efficiently.
    http://anoxicfiltrationsystem.blogspot.sg/2013/08/once-microporous-structure-is-gone-from.html?q=pollution+concentration
    http://anoxicfiltrationsystem.blogspot.sg/2014/02/part-2-thermodynamics-substances-bead.html?q=thermodynamics

    All good filters will adhere to the above 2 principles. The difference is in how it's done and how efficient it's.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2014-07-15 03:09:05 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro TomyC

    so.....are you planning for anoxic filtration system in your next koi pond?

    Can you tell us the advantages and disadvantages?

    Do you see.........from the links you have provided where do the uncertainties lie?

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Good evening Bro TomyC

    so.....are you planning for anoxic filtration system in your next koi pond?

    Can you tell us the advantages and disadvantages?

    Do you see.........from the links you have provided where do the uncertainties lie?

    Cheers</blockquote>
    I posted the link not to promote Anoxic filtration, but to share the scientific explanations behind filtration. The person behind Anoxic Filtration has a PhD, and has been openly and freely sharing the advantages of Anoxic Filtration and koi keeping in general. You can find info like salting, or redox on the blog.

    An anoxic filtration will need adequate space like a conventional up-down flow filtration. It also requires good mechanical filtration to reduce debris entering the anoxic filter. It also takes effort to gather the materials needed to make.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good Afternoon Bro TomyC

    Thank you for sharing with us on the Anoxic filtration system........ I have a good read.

    As you have pointed it out....It is a wonderful system but there are limitations and constraints associated with it. I personally think designing for the right amount of O2 present within the media is the most challenging aspect of it.

    I personally think it is not the type of biological filtration system that we should be concerned with.... it is the pre-filtration methodology that we are going to employ to handle the waste generated within the system that is more important......... especially when we are constructing our pond in a confine space.

    Over the weekend.....my chiller stop suddenly and the water flow/level indicator light came on..... Banana..... I suspect the paddle switch "kaput". Yesterday I have it replaced and the chiller run again..... :)

    I took the opportunity to open up the reservoir tank to inspect the condition of the cooling coils inside it..... Good news..... they are very the clean and no build up at all. I would like to share a pic I took......

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16111/Chiller-cooling-coil.jpg

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Good Afternoon Bro TomyC

    Thank you for sharing with us on the Anoxic filtration system........ I have a good read.

    As you have pointed it out....It is a wonderful system but there are limitations and constraints associated with it. I personally think designing for the right amount of O2 present within the media is the most challenging aspect of it.

    I personally think it is not the type of biological filtration system that we should be concerned with.... it is the pre-filtration methodology that we are going to employ to handle the waste generated within the system that is more important......... especially when we are constructing our pond in a confine space.

    </blockquote>

    Anoxic filtration doesn't require additional O2 in the bio-filtration. O2 levels before and after Anoxic filtrations are reported to be the same.

    I agree that having the right pre-filtration (mechanical filtration) is highly important. However, so is having the right biological filtration, or at least the understanding of its workings.

    Below is a link to a simple DIY pre-filtration that doesn't take much space at all:
    http://anoxicfiltrationsystem.blogspot.sg/2013/08/an-effective-homemade-pre-filter-thats.html
    Post edited by TomyC at 2014-07-22 04:08:10 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    How on earth are we going to make sure....in an anoxic situation, there is oxygen present but it is at a very low level. The science we can talk until the cows come home.... hehehe.... but the engineering aspect..... I am not too sure.

    O2 levels between 0.5 mg/L and 2 mg/L wor.... This is the key factor that will influence a situation where anoxic filtration can occur.

    On the link you provided.... that type of catch basin is good for goldfish pond lah..... no way it can handles koi shits, leaves and when the koi are jumbo in size...... It will be a challenge to get the chambers drawdown right for that type of basin elements in it.... even though we can enlarge it proportionally to the volume of pond water return.



  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Bro TomyC

    How on earth are we going to make sure....in an anoxic situation, there is oxygen present but it is at a very low level. The science we can talk until the cows come home.... hehehe.... but the engineering aspect..... I am not too sure.

    O2 levels between 0.5 mg/L and 2 mg/L wor.... This is the key factor that will influence a situation where anoxic filtration can occur.

    On the link you provided.... that type of catch basin is good for goldfish pond lah..... no way it can handles koi shits, leaves and when the koi are jumbo in size...... It will be a challenge to get the chambers drawdown right for that type of basin elements in it.... even though we can enlarge it proportionally to the volume of pond water return.
    </blockquote>
    Anoxic Filtration has been around for about 20 years. There's low level of oxygen in the core of the biocenosis basket. You can download the Anoxic Filtration ebook to find out more. https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/anoxic-filtration-system/id604698627?mt=11

    I think the pre-filter can handle koi-crap. It just has to be cleaned regularly depending on the bio-load, feed rate, pollutants etc. And like you said, it can be adjusted to the size accordingly.

    I agree with the practice of cleaning the pre-filter regularly with minimal water loss and changes to the pond water condition. To do so, the pre-filter has to be able to be cleaned easily, simply, and quickly.

    Bro Harryyew, you have shared multiple times about the many months you don't clean the pre-filter. Like boiling a frog gradually in water, when do you decide it's time to wash the filter? Why not 1 month later or earlier? Why not, 12 months?
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Updated Drawings

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16114/Pond%20Layout%202014%2007%2023.jpg


    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16115/Pond Chamber 2014 07 23.jpeg
    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-23 09:45:30 am
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good Morning Bro TomyC

    20 years is still at its infant stage of development lah. The engineering aspect to promote anoxic filtration is not as simple as you have read. I cannot download the link you provided as it is not available in Malaysia store. I believe you have read the book……. So please tell me….. how the promoter size the number of biocenosis baskets, its depth of placement and ensuring the O2 level within these biocenosis baskets have an O2 level between 0.5ppm to 2ppm? Is it going to be a try and error method of design?


    IMHO….. no way that pre-filter depicted can handle the koi shits (assuming there are 9 kois in a 12 tons pond and at a feed rate of 200g/day) if it is not cleaned on a daily basis. The screen size chosen in the pre-filter is small lah…. It will clog up in no time with leaves and algae. If one is to maintain the water mechanic (i.e. Continuity of flow) he/she will need to have multiple of it in order to work. Imagine you have to clean these multiple pre-filters on a daily basis. It just take the enjoyment of keeping koi….. you will be enslaved to the pond bro!!! I know, I know…. Some will argue that it is a small sacrifice to keep healthy koi…..hehehe…… To me this is just a justification and illusion to satisfy own error made in the initial outlay of the filtration system. 10 out of 10 ponds….. I noticed the pre-filtration chamber is designed inadequately to handle the loads.

    Hehehe….Sorry if I have given you an impression that I don’t clean my filtration system. I do clean my filtration system but just not at the rate many of you have promoted. In the beginning it was approximately every 3 months…. Then my own observations direct me for bi-yearly event. So far it is ok, the koi are healthy and lively. Their growth rates are super good…..

    Later this year…. I am going to modify my pre-filtration chamber to allow me to turn it into a yearly cleaning event. If I have the know-how like now when I started this hobby….. I would have designed for it to be on a yearly basis…… I too have learned from my own mistakes especially with the pre-filtration design needs.
    Post edited by harryyew at 2014-07-23 10:07:09 am
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Bro harryyew,

    Thanks for the links to Neli's pond. I spent many nights trying to understand what the both of you were discussing. Unfortunately, the technicalities were a little beyond me. :/

    With regards to splitting the filter chambers into 2 parallel system, the contractor is not so keen to do so. Not sure why, but did not push too hard when I last spoke to him.
    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-23 06:32:51 pm
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Pepper,

    Good Day. It is strange that the pond builder is not keen to splitting into 2. I would surmise that making it deep and narrow will make accessibility harder to maintain perhaps. But then if the.biomats are made big and deep, try to imagine how heavy it is to pull it up. The weight of biomats become much heavier when soaked for a long time. And dont forget how heavy brushes are to pull up if its 5 feet long and connected in a series. I have been there before and so have a lot of hobbyist I know who complain about this. There is also the issue of an unbalance bottom drain flow in a setup with 4 bottom drain to one filter settlement chamber. In most likely you will get more flow (e.g. 70% in the BD nearest to the settlement area while the fartest will just get for example 5% flow rendering the other BD useless). If you make it two separate system whereby two Bottom drains go thru instead to a separate system at least the inequality in flow rate between the two bottom drain pipe will be not so great. Remember a bottom drain that has a weak flow will mean less waste is captured to the filter. Your water return will not help push the waste farthest toward the most efficient bottom drain. Remember also you do not have the best shape for a koi pond as well.

    Another issue is if it one whole filter it means you have no running filter whenever you clean any part of it. With two separate filters, you can run one while you clean the other with the water still being processed in the other filter.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-23 12:26:18 pm
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I find it interesting that you find 100% of mechanical filtration made in koi ponds inadequate to the load of waste that is captured. I suppose you are refering to all seives, brushes, long throw settlements, vortex and drum filters as inadequate as well. But on the other hand you praise your highly regarded settlement settling tubes or better yet commercial waste water settling tubes that allow pond keeper to "just enjoy" the koi and forget about the waste that will get trap and get collected for at least a year without causing any worries or potential problems in the future. Seems to me, your opinion needs some further convincing especially among long time successful koi keepers who are "enslaved to our koi."

    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-23 01:48:20 pm
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Good Morning Bro TomyC

    20 years is still at its infant stage of development lah. The engineering aspect to promote anoxic filtration is not as simple as you have read. I cannot download the link you provided as it is not available in Malaysia store. I believe you have read the book……. So please tell me….. how the promoter size the number of biocenosis baskets, its depth of placement and ensuring the O2 level within these biocenosis baskets have an O2 level between 0.5ppm to 2ppm? Is it going to be a try and error method of design?</blockquote>

    The condensed version of the theories can be found here:
    http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/anoxic_filtration_part_1.html

    The beauty of a biocenosis basket is that it can be any shape, and size bigger than about "30 cm x 30 cm x 20 cm".

    The inside zone is where it's 'anoxic'. http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/anoxic_filtration_part_2.html
    http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/assets/images/autogen/a_Biocenosis_basket_zones06.gif

    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Good Morning Bro TomyC

    Later this year…. I am going to modify my pre-filtration chamber to allow me to turn it into a yearly cleaning event. If I have the know-how like now when I started this hobby….. I would have designed for it to be on a yearly basis…… I too have learned from my own mistakes especially with the pre-filtration design needs.
    </blockquote>
    There are self-cleaning methods that can prolong the so called 'cleaning event'. DIY timed airlifts to clean the settlement chamber is one way. It's understandable why cleaning the filter has become an event to you, such that you have to schedule proper time and a day for it. Also to ensure it isn't raining when you are organising the event.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good Afternoon bro pepper

    Please be patient with me......I will comment later on the updated design for your further consideration.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good Evening Bro HDCu and Bro TomyC

    hehehe......I am referring to those ponds that I have visited lah.....

    My pre-filter is not perfected...... I am hoping someone can...... from our many discussions. Again mine is not the best....

    Engineering is not an exact science, it is all common sense.....

    You guys have given me the impression that your current ponds design does not have an upper and lower bounds parameters to observe and comply..... hehehe...


    My key point is that..... if our design system can respond to the demands or loads.... we should enjoy it. We should not exhibit OCD...... hehehe...
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Good Evening Bro HDCu and Bro TomyC

    hehehe......I am referring to those ponds that I have visited lah.....

    My pre-filter is not perfected...... I am hoping someone can...... from our many discussions. Again mine is not the best....

    Engineering is not an exact science, it is all common sense.....

    You guys have given me the impression that your current ponds design does not have an upper and lower bounds parameters to observe and comply..... hehehe...


    My key point is that..... if our design system can respond to the demands or loads.... we should enjoy it. We should not exhibit OCD...... hehehe... </blockquote>
    Why wash one's face everyday when it can be washed every week or month.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper


    A well design primary clarifier is expected to remove 90 to 95% of settleable solids, 40% to 60% of the total suspended solids, and 25 to 35% of biological oxygen demand (BOD).

    In Waste Treatment Plant designs.... generally..... we used a surface-loading rate in the range of 1m3/m2/hr to 2m3/m2/hr depending on the waste they are designing for. Practical range is around 1.5m3 to 1.7m3/m2/hr.

    I estimate based on the proposed pump you are employing..... it is possible for you to have a pond volume turnover every hour.

    Now.... your 1st chamber size is 1.2m x 1.0m = 1.2 m2, which gives Surface overflow rate (i.e. SOR) of 18m3/hr/1.2m2 ===> 15 m3/m2/hr if you have allowed for a direct up flow with bristle brushes. So.... day one..... you will have to live with the shits being carry forward to the subsequent chambers.

    If you are ok.... with the more frequent cleaning required to the subsequent chambers.... then the size provided should be ok.

  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    hehehehe...... specious reasoning!!! hehehehe....

  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Well.... one case study involving an extreme scenario of daily cleaning is not really science, it is anecdotal. hehehe....
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper

    On the bottom drain at the 3 o'clock position.... why not just direct route it like the red arrow shown below?


    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16116/Pond Layout 2014 07 23 (R1).jpg


    The shorter the pipe route the better, less head loss and cleaning easier. Are you proposing to cast the pipe within the concrete slab thickness?
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Your contractor calculated the drawdowns among the chambers are wrong.

    You have allowed for 150mm opening at the bottom between chambers. I recommend for your consideration to allow for 200mm height instead to lower down the flow velocity. Your flow velocity will be laminar. You don't want fines to be carried forward by a strong current.

    I don't understand why the bottom drains in the chambers are all positioned to a particular corner? Is your contractor proposing to slope the floor bed to there obliquely in plane?

    I also cannot understand the advantages of having that narrow 200mm wide chamber?

    Oyster shells and/or coral place in all chambers? My recommendation is placed it at a chamber before the pump chamber. How to size the quantity of oyster shells and/or coral appropriately..... I don't know..... May be other bros/sis in this forum can advise....
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper

    I noticed that your contractor is running the pond water return pipe embedded in the wall and going up and down along the route of return to the proposed discharge depth..... That is not good engineering as we are introducing more head loss in the water return line. It is just a waste of your supply energy....

    For a 3pH 1.5kW Tsurumi pump..... It's outlet size is 80mm. Your drawing shown the pipe size as 50mm diameter. Is your contractor proposing to provide a reducer and a Tee and branch it out into two separate routes for your multiple return supplies?
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Good Morning Bro harryyew,

    Yes I understand your points about easier maintenance for the 2 parallel filter system. Will try to ask him again.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16117/Tsurumi Specs.jpg


    As usual you are right Bro harryyew.
    Will have to talk to him about the pump & pipe diameters.

    Question:
    If I have 2 parallel filter systems
    - do I still run one 1.5kW pump for each system or do I run a 0.75kW pump now?
    - should I still run 2 pumps for each system, ie 4 pumps in total, or 2 will suffice?

    Thanks

  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Bro harryyew,

    Bottom Drains

    I think that the Main contractor is going to use an excavator to dig the trenches. Asking him to dig another trench 1.3 m deep and to back fill it will probably incur more cost on my side. Not sure if a RC slab will be needed as well.

    So to answer your question about running the BD along the big red arrow - I think cannot. I will have to live with at least 1 angled turn.

    Filter Chambers

    1. Filter media composition and distribution - I believe I can convince the Pond builder to change.

    2. Increasing the lower opening from 150 to 200mm should not be a problem.
    Question
    - do I lower the depth of the chamber by 50mm to achieve this or
    - do I shorten the upper wall by 50mm?

    3. 200mm last chamber
    - I will ask what's the rationale for having that.
    - Personally, I prefer it in the 1st chamber like the one you drew as I think that will help settle the waste at the bottom better. Is this the case?

    Thanks

  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good morning Bro pepper

    Having a parallel biological filtration system is very ideal as you will have a GOOD contingency plan in place for the many possible risks that can be associated with the pond functions. This parallel biological filtration system need not be run parallel to each other. It should be arranged at a different strategic location so that you can reduce head loss via the piping network. If parallel system... you don't need 3 chambers to house your biological media. Two more than enough and you can have an even bigger 1st chamber. Please revisit my earlier cross sectional sketch highlighting a small small pre filter chamber to promote a downward flow and settling of the waste to the 1st chamber. It will also facilitate your cleaning process later.


    The configuration of the biological filtration system need not be arrange to run logitudinal wise as you can have it arranged in a square configuration. If you have it configured squarely...... it can a timber decking place for you to use. Don't worry.... for a proper design biological filtration system.... it is practically odourless at the surface.

    Personally, I think the 3pH 1.5kW pump is overkill and your contractor is designing it like a swimming pool water return. hehehe..... I have estimated for you the electricity charges you will be committing in my previous post. It would be wonderful if we can reduce it and your system will not be compromised even though I am sure that cost is well within your affordability.

    I am also of the view that you have over provided the total number of hydro venturi air jets. Do you have a specific model in mine. I am asking for this info is because, this type of venturi air jets required a min specific driving head to make it operational and it can be noisy if you did not design it right. Obviously, there will be a significant amount of head loss associated with it. The good news is that the pond will have plenty of O2 level in it. From my educated guess... two numbers is more than enough to saturate the O2 level in the pond.

    So.... the rest of your water return can be just a simple return at different depth and it will be able to introduce plenty of current in the column of water.

    I notice you have not plan for air supply for your biological filtration system. Have your contractor proposed any specific air supply model for your consideration?

    For planning and final design purposes until the head losses can be ascertained with a higher degree level of confidence, I think you can consider for a pair of 50PU2.75S in conjunction with 40PU2.25S to be run alternately every 12 hours. I planned mine for every 6 hours changed over. These are single phase pumps. You don't need a electrical phase monitoring relay to monitor for phase reverse supply but you need to balance the electrical loads in your electrical distribution supply. I am sure.... a competent electrician will be able to balance it out for you.

    Now.....coming back to the bottom drain with unequal lengths return to the 1st chamber....... the difference in lengths is not big.... so the difference in the flow velocity in each of the pipes are small and we can ignore it. Your 1st chamber will be acting like a balancing tank and will balance the different drawdowns. The key point in this hydraulic design is that you want to have a laminar flow (i.e not a turbulent flow) within the filtration system to allow the fines to settle to the bottom of the chambers and the fines are not been carried forward to the subsequent chambers unnecessary.

    Cheers

  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper

    saw your post after my post....

    Quote
    I think that the Main contractor is going to use an excavator to dig the trenches. Asking him to dig another trench 1.3 m deep and to back fill it will probably incur more cost on my side. Not sure if a RC slab will be needed as well.

    Ans.
    hehehe.....You don't want that 90 degree. To me that is a small extra over to excavate and it can be done in less than 1/2hr. In Singapore.... it is the law that for an excavate depth beyond 1.2m it needs to be shored. If he is not shoring the trenches than.... he will be excavating for an open cut to commence his construction. Ok. Even your contractor want to charge.... it is only $300 the most.

    Quote
    2. Increasing the lower opening from 150 to 200mm should not be a problem.
    Question
    - do I lower the depth of the chamber by 50mm to achieve this or
    - do I shorten the upper wall by 50mm?

    Ans
    Either way is fine.
    With 200mm opening and with a water discharge of 183/hr..... I estimated your flow velocity is around 25mm/sec. Practical good velocity to have.



    Quote
    3. 200mm last chamber
    - I will ask what's the rationale for having that.
    - Personally, I prefer it in the 1st chamber like the one you drew as I think that will help settle the waste at the bottom better. Is this the case?

    Ans
    Yes. You are right there.

    Remember.... Try avoiding having to cast your pipe length in the slab.

    Cheers
    Post edited by harryyew at 2014-07-24 12:33:40 pm
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Bro harryyew,

    My Pond contractor is originally a Pool contractor that has branched out into building ponds as well. We've negotiated a fixed price to do the Pond as I am on a budget. So far, he has been very accommodating and nice about the changes without increasing my price.
    Eg
    - increasing the Pond Lamps from 3W to 6W
    - additional skimmer with external pump (in exchange for removing the water feature)
    - larger chambers = more filter media, longer piping
    - adding swivel Jacuzzi jets outlets for the Hydro Venturi Air Jets - I think below is what he is providing.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16118/Jacuzzi Jet.jpg

    So I am trying to be as reasonable Home Owner as possible.
    - Cutting the current system into 2 down the middle - conceptually, seems easier for me to sell the idea and easier for him to accept
    - making 2 systems at 2 different locations - not only will he complain, I think my Architect and Main contractor are going to jump up and down as well
    - making the current system into 2 square systems - I think will also face resistance from the Pond and Main contractor.

    Pump

    "consider for a pair of 50PU2.75S in conjunction with 40PU2.25S to be run alternately every 12 hours"

    Are you saying that
    - one pair of 0.25 kW pumps to run 1 side and one pair of 0.75 kW pumps to run the other side?
    or
    - or one 0.25 kW + 0.75 kW to run 1 side and similar set up on the other side?

    Thanks


    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-24 02:08:00 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper

    I see.... hehehe....
    Having another filtration system on top of an existing provisional system to me is an enhancement and there is definitely additional cost. If you are going to have two filtration system..... then the bio media chambers no need to be that big to house the filtration media.

    There are many ways of having a fair contract managed on a lump basis. All other things you have mentioned save for the extra filtration system, the contractor has more beneficial return. That is ok. He is happy and you are happy...... that is the outcome we should target towards.

    I don't understand the provision of "additional skimmer with external pump"..... may I ask what is that for?

    hmmm.... this "swivel Jacuzzi jets outlets for the Hydro Venturi Air Jets"..... look good.... you are attempting to create a whirlpool system effect but do you know the pressure water head required to drive it? I think you have provided too many of it and the koi may find it no joy to be under those effect...... Is that knob provide to control the amount of air being drawn from surface to?

    May I ask..... in your chosen team....who is originally responsible to come up with a design "Fit For All Its intended Purposes"?

    On the pumps thing.... it all depends on the estimated head loss in the system wide piping network you are going to experience, pressure head required to drive those swivel Jacuzzi jets outlets for the Hydro Venturi Air Jets and of course the number of of filtration system.

    Assuming the hydraulic head losses are accounted for and the pressure head sufficient to drive those jets.... one pair of 0.25 kW pumps to run for those shorter route outlets without the jets (I think 0.25kw will not be able to drive those jets) and one pair of 0.75 kW pumps to run the other side to drive the jets. System wide network can be coordinated.

    Among the 3 pumps now available for your consideration, they all have different available pressure heads for a given discharge volume which you can read off from the chart. Singapore electricity supply run on 50Hz. You need to be extra caution in selecting the pumps as your current system under consideration required higher pressure heads availability to make it works.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Alternatively.... if you finally going for one pump chamber scenario.... then have all the four pumps house within it. Just enlarge the pump chamber slightly bigger to accommodate a person if the pumps union joint is not within hand reach.

    I would recommend for a 6 hours change over instead of a 12 hours change over.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Btw.... having a squarely configured chambers will entails less concrete and formwork required for a given footprint..... Just in case you need this for your discussion purpose.

    If your contractor can... have the partition precast to a thickness of 50mm thick and slot in to partition. You gain tremedous additional volume of filtration.

    Currently the 3 chambers you have provided can accommodate more than 14 pieces of Jmat. You may want to revisit this.
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Thanks Bro harryyew.

    Can I ask again why the returning pipes should not cast within the RC base slab?

    I spoke to the architect and he thinks in the slab is better because there will be less chance of movement.


    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16120/Pond BD below RC Slab.jpg

    Thanks
    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-24 04:49:55 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper

    A concrete pond is designed as a water retaining structure. The following are the reasons:

    1) The reinforcement used are small in diameter and much more closely spaced. It is difficult to accommodate the diameter of the pipe within the concrete slab thickness unless you are proposing to go for thicker than 150mm. Concrete cannot take tension and you need reinforcement to take care of the tension forces. Now...in order for the tension forces to develop proper you need to have adequate concrete cover to allow the bonding stress to develop. There are a bunch of other reasons on the structural behaviour of a reinforced concrete. I will skip the rest so that I would not confuse you.

    2) With the many big diameter PVC pipes embedded in the slab, it makes the installation of reinforcement difficult and during reinforcement installation the pipe position and its plumb especially at the mouth of the inlet and outlet cannot achieve a good level plane.

    3) If the PVC pipes have been pre-laid with a layer of lean concrete (anyway you need this 50mm thick lean concrete as a working platform) to to hold it in position... you can fixed it to the true position and plumb its mouth with a good level in plane. You don't want to have a slanting standpipe later.

    You make sure the contractor knows how to plumb the ingress and egress of the bottom pipes.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Once the pipes are all held in position with the lean concrete.... no way the workers can displace it during reinforcement installation or during concreting unless it has been intentional.

  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    I have registered as a user to view to the links you have provided.....

    However, not successful. The message board said I have to wait for the admin to activate the account......Then the next message said.... Please contact one of the board admin for assistance....Is the Link site active and safe or not? So leicheir one....

    Can you please copy and paste the pictures or diagrams.... I think the admin there is on holiday... Hehehe.....

  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6289713/pond/P1000225.JPG
    dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6289713/pond/P1000389.JPG
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    Thank you for the pics.

    No. Not like that..... That way is a different type of construction methodology. Not economical IMO for our intended purposes.

    Let me try to describe (as I cannot find my pics) to illustrate....

    We will slightly over excavated to the concrete base level we want by approx 50mm further and we will then trim the earth to profile and compact the earth. We can now mark on the earth....the position where we want our bottom pipe ingress & egress and how to route it. Hand trimmed the earth further down with a "changkol' for a 50mm trench of the changol width for where the pipe will be laid. The level no need to be perfected. This extra 50mm depth is just to house and embed the pipe proper without the remaining general area to be screed to a thickness of 100mm.

    Position the pipe ingress and egress and then just used a site mix (1:2:4) cement sand aggregate concrete ( if quantity is small) or order premix concrete (Grade 15) for larger quantity and screed to the proposed concrete base soffit level. Concrete will take approx 2 hr to set... So you will have plenty of time to recheck the ingress and egress level to be true and in plane.

    Leave it overnight.... And then tomorrow.... You will have a solid working platform to start erecting your external wall formwork and then install the reinforcement without the need to worry about the pipe been displaced. Only need to ensure the workers don't damage the pipe ingress and egress.

    If it rain also no problem... Your working platform is clean and solid until you complete your construction.

    Can understand?

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    However, if the earth moves, the pipes with the concrete will move?
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    How on earth can the earth move? Hehehe....
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Bro TomyC

    How on earth can the earth move? Hehehe....</blockquote>

    Why are there cracks in some walls?
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good morning Bro TomyC

    Depending on the nature and character of the cracks on the wall...... But generally cracks in a water retaining structure arises due to inadequate or wrongly sizing of reinforcement and it was not design to observe and comply with BS8007.

    Pond structures are usually design as non suspended structure.

    When you try to relate earth movement as settlement..... You are indirectly saying there is a lack of compaction after the excavation to the base causing initial settlement. Technically, the excavate overburden load/pressure of the earth is higher than the overburden load of the water so settlement due to weight of the pond is unlikely.

    So..... You see...... It is advisable to get an Engineer to assist in the design and a competent contractor that knows how to employ good engineering practices during construction. Getting the Architect to provide landscape architectural is a bonus but not a necessity. Do you know why? Hehehe......

    You got pics to illustrate the type of cracks you are referring to?


    Cheers
  • pepperpepper April 2015
    Posts: 53
    Hi

    So it's been almost a year of planning and the construction work of the pond is finally about to begin...

    Will try to do a pictorial update on the progress of the building of my pond. Hopefully it will give other newbies an idea of what happens. I know I was completely lost when I started. Am still clueless about what's going to happen next.

    14 Apr 2015
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17346/Pond_2015_04_14_01.jpg

    15 Apr 2015
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17347/Pond_2015_04_15_01.jpg

    18 Apr 2015
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17348/Pond_2015_04_18_01.jpg

    20 Apr 2015
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17349/Pond_2015_04_20_01.jpg

    22 Apr 2015
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17350/Pond_2015_04_22_01.jpg

    25 Apr 2015
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17351/Pond_2015_04_25_01.jpg
  • pepperpepper April 2015
    Posts: 53
    29 Apr 2015

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17360/Pond_2015_04_29_01.jpg

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17361/Pond_2015_04_29_02.jpg

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