Judging of Kois
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Is judging of kois subjective? Personally, I believe so. Some prefer body conformation over the other qualities. Some prefer the skin texture, skin quality & color, and pattern etc. Most would agree on shine. A skinny but unique koi could win over what would be a seemingly better looking koi. And after all have been said and done, no one can be sure of whether their kois would win, and personally, I think this is a good thing that no one can be very sure that their kois would take top prizes. So there is an element of subjectivity, preference, luck and so on............ IMHO, this is the fun part of the Koi keeping hobby...........
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  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Shukri been very free nowadays creating many posts of interest. But this particularly interests me. Let me share my few cents, but just MHO.

    I think koi shows are generally divided into ZNA and Shinkokai and judging criteria is quite different. ZNA are hobbyist judges and generally look for the perfect koi. Small flaws that may be easily overlooked in Shinkokai are not so tolerable in ZNA.

    Also I think judging criteria is becoming more vague these days with different generations looking for different qualities. In this area ZNA becomes more unpredicitable because the judges come from different countries and background. Shinkokai judging you can almost guess which will take prizes by virtue of overall quality.

    So to be successful at both shows, I think we might be best off with different set of entries. Unless you have a terribly good fish that cannot be denied wins.
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Well said James......... =D> =D> =D> (Y)
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  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Interesting observation James. So by that virtue, can Shinkokai judging potentially be deemed as a guideline to the overall future potential of the koi for further development since the judges more or less judge their kois daily based on this?
    Post edited by nivek at 2014-05-19 01:50:42 pm
  • KChongKChong May 2014
    Posts: 348
    Totally agree with James.. (Y)
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Kevin, this depends on size too. If a showa wins at 25bu, we cannot really expect a huge future for it generally. Because good showas rarely finish that young and at that size. But again we are talking general rule of thumb.
  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Yes definitely. It would be good if our hobbyist can use that as a guideline to nurture their kois further for development (especially 2-4 year old kois). One thing that would be good to see is if we can have the judges provide feedback on areas of improvement needed for the kois. Brief feedback will do, not for every koi but most definitely for the 1st placings maybe?
    Post edited by nivek at 2014-05-19 02:12:56 pm
  • pandaipandai May 2014
    Posts: 1,083
    I also want to share my few cents of newbie's opinion.

    I had the opportunity of attending a ZNA judging seminar during the last AJKS in Tokyo. The participants of the seminar were all presented with 5 showas to judge based on ZNA's judging criteria i.e. body (40%), skin quality (30%), pattern (20%) and potential (10%) - if I remember correctly. As it turns out, rather expectedly; from the 60+ number of participants and 5 certified local judges not everyone voted the top showa as the their top koi. There were quite a spread of rank between the 5 kois. There were even participants who voted quite the opposite to the average.

    So the point to learn here I supposed is that, although the judging criteria has a methodical approach, there is still a fair amount of "subjectivity" involved in arriving to the final result. At the end of the day, the rule of majority still plays a role, hence I guess why we need a decision of multiple judges in order to determine major winners. I guess that's the fairest way of doing it too anyway.

    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    (Y) (Y) (Y)
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  • junhan0912junhan0912 May 2014
    Posts: 50
    ^:)^ ^:)^
  • ikankoikauikankoikau May 2014
    Posts: 1,053
    Just my 2c.

    Judging base on 40/30/20/10% or 50/30/10/10 will be quite a standard marking. From this, we should be able to understand better when sending any particular koi for show. For a small size koi around 30bu, body will not make much of a different between one koi to another. That is why skin quality and pattern will play an important part. For bigger kois around 50Bu, body conformation will be getting obvious. You need to have reasonable body and good skin quality. Finished koi will have better advantage.

    At 70Bu an above, body will have to play important part as the judges can appreciate good body easily. With body and skin quality alone, it can win over average body with good pattern any time. Base on this, hobbyist should be able to pick better potential koi for a show.

    Between ZNA and Shinkokai, breeders will certainly have different opinion compare to ZNA judges. They are mostly breeders so "potential" bias will always be in their mind. While ZNA will be looking mostly at the best koi on that day. I over head the judges saying this a couple of times during the judging process. Overall, by having different judges from different countries, it will be fair.

  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    (Y) (Y) (Y)
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  • brianlawbrianlaw May 2014
    Posts: 107
    Bro pandai soon can be certified as a Judge! Hahahahahaha...
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Agree with you fully Brian.........
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  • HWONGHWONG May 2014
    Posts: 286
    Capt,
    you are spot on. Just like breeders, hobbyists do not keep all varieties hence like breeder judges, will know and appreciate the finer points of his area of specialty.

    Zna Malaysia recognises these limitations and that's the reason for inviting judges outside of Asia to include South Africa , Australia who are well acquainted with non gosanke varieties. Because of an importation ban, a big % of Australian hobbyist breed their own kois.
  • idrisidris May 2014
    Posts: 1,182
    it depends on the judge preference also sometime. although there is a guideline 40% body and the rest split sometime they wont follow.. i have witness myself on a smaller category where two kois were judge..clearly one of the kois pattern, quality is much much more superior than the others. just because the body is a bit smaller, the bigger koi win although color n pattern not so good...so someone told me 1 word- luck.....

    but this is good thing to learn...like james said to cater both shows probably u need to have 2 set of entries for shinkokai n zna...there are two ways actually where i see.

    1. Select your koi to be send based on judging criteria specifically for shinkokai n zna..if the koi nearly not meet zna preference..just dont send...if not meet shinkokai preference...dont send..send what potentially can win for the specific show.

    2. have the extremely good kois which nobody can deny just like james quoted...hahaha..

    anyway this is just my opinion...anybody can agree or disagree because if you look back at the fact, everything are subjective...
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    But a koi that is dialed in i.e. with good body conformation, good skin texture & color with sharp kiwa and Sashi, and the pattern is pleasing to the eyes and shines............. will no doubt win in both of the Shows................ :-D :)
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-05-21 01:36:41 pm
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    And that kind of koi will not be as affordable... Unless you can do magic in your pond....
  • idrisidris May 2014
    Posts: 1,182
    Totally agree...sometime at show if u hav bag koi also when placing it on the ground beside other competitor also will effect the result..I learn thos from one of my sifu..its a lesson learned...
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    :-)) :-)) :-)) That was no sifu. That was BS and TC.
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    What is BS and TC??? :-"
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    BS = Bang Shukri, TC = Terus Cucuk >:-)
  • idrisidris May 2014
    Posts: 1,182
    hahaha...james...hahahahah
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Bukan BS - Best Second, TC - Takde Can :-)) :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    BS - Bukan Shukri, TC - Terus Caci >:-)
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    :-)) :-)) :-D 8-)
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.

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