Strange behaviour after anti-biotic jab
  • RickyFRickyF May 2011
    Posts: 4
    Hello all,

    I just want to share my experience as a rather new koi hobbyist (2+ years) in trying to cure my ulcerated kois. Over last Sunday, I have injected 3 of my kois which have contracted ulcers. The condition of 1 of the kois is bad as I can see the flesh and I start the procedure with it as it is the smallest fish. I almost killed it and pobably myself as I did not put enough transmore anaesthetic as it was the first fish which I was treating. I do not know how much to put as it is trial and error. As I was injecting it and the needle piercing the skin in the area near the fin and belly where the muscle is, the fish sprang up and resulted the needle going in deep. The fish was bleeding profusely and blood everywhere :-S I scratch myself too, not sure from the needle and I hope not as it is antibiotic for fish. Anyway, I have lived to tell the tale. I quickly injected the antibiotic again and put fish back in quarantine tank (QT). Coagulated chunk of blood came out from gill and it is still bleeding. I quickly add generous amount salt and that seem to stop the bleeding. It recovers from the anaesthetic and swam normally. Then I proceed same procedure to second and third fish which are much bigger with success. I then added some yellow powder into the QT. After awhile, I saw the mid-size fish behaving strangely as it was swimming near the water surface and the body was tilting a bit. The fish finally committed suicide by jumping out of the QT yesterday when I was not at home. My family members told me that the fish was knocking itself a few times on the wall of the QT. When it was found, it was almost liveless but can't save it. I am not sure what cause the strange behaviour but lesson learned - I should cover the QT with a net. Last but not least, RIP my dear koi as you have suffered much.
  • ShukriShukri May 2011
    Posts: 4,881
    After reading your post, my only comment to you is that you are very brave indeed.
    A few questions that I need to ask:

    1) Where did you learn how to inject your koi? What technique did you use? IM or IP or IV?
    2) What antibiotics did you use? What are the dosages? An what needle size did you use?
    3) Did you apply any topical application to the wound?
    4) Apparently you did not knock out the infected koi before administering the jabs......

    When your fishes have wounds and ulcers, it is better to use Blagdon/Interpet Ulcers medication to be put in the quarantine tank.........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • AnuarAnuar May 2011
    Posts: 688
    Hi Bro,

    Try checking the water parameter of your qt. Some brothers here opined that sometimes it is best to leave the sick kois, especially after antibiotic treatment at the main pond especially if we are not confident with the water quality of the qt. This is subject to debate.

    In my case, I have lost a few in my qt, including some of my prized collection, and suspected that they may have died due to water quality rather than their sickness, particularly ph. I am now trying to cycle the qt to bring to maturity with a couple of kois, but with weekly dosage of vivakoi (a bit expensive to use for main pond), and close monitoring of the ph level. It has been 3 weeks and things are looking good.

    Just in case I need to qt one day.
  • RickyFRickyF May 2011
    Posts: 4
    Sifu Anuar and Shukri,

    Thank you for your advices and comments. I find this forum very useful as we learn from each other. Not only I am brave, I am also mad and crazy as my wife told me :)

    Obviously I am not a pro but I am willing to take the risks as I got nothing to loose. Fishes have the ulcers for 2-3 months at least. I have tried SI and salt treatment in main pond but no success. I isolate them in QT with same treatments with no success as well. The condition of the smaller and skinny fish is pretty bad as the ulcer size is bigger than 50 sen coin and I can see the flesh. I either let it die of the disease or use it as a "guinea pig" for my medicine degree in fishes. Ka! Ka! Ka!

    Bro Shukri,

    My answers as below :

    1) Where did you learn how to inject your koi? What technique did you use? IM or IP or IV? I did not learn from anyone or see any video clip about it. Just trial and error. I have used the smallest syringe which looks like it is meant for insulin injection by diabetics.
    2) What antibiotics did you use? What are the dosages? An what needle size did you use? I can't remember the name but it is in small glass where I have to break the tip. For my 50cm+ koi, I have used about 28cc. For the smaller (about 30cm) and skinny koi, I have used about 23cc. Measurement in the syringe is in cc.
    3) Did you apply any topical application to the wound? Yes, I did with iodine paste after the injections. Iodine paste is available in market under the name of Betadine. I have read from this forum that it is not available. They have it in liquid and paste forms. I got mine in Watson. Paste is more expensive.
    4) Apparently you did not knock out the infected koi before administering the jabs......
    No, I obviously did not knock out the koi completely. Lesson learned here. I was careful with the anaesthetic dosage as I'm afraid the fish may not wake up again.

    Guess what, I can see a little improvement as I can see a white thin layer of what looks like skin growing on the flesh. If god willing, I think the 2 surviving fishes will recover in another 2 weeks. I should keep changing the water every 2 days with S1 (yellow powder expensive leh) and generous amount of salt as I don't want the wound to be infected again from bacteria in the dirty water. Trust me, with no feeding, the water can turn bad in 2 days and it stinks as well.

    Hope to give you the good news in 2 weeks time.
  • ShukriShukri May 2011
    Posts: 4,881
    From the description, it is highly likely that the antibiotics is Romikacin. 1 cc is equivalent to 1ml, so you actually injected 2.8 and 2.3 cc respectively. It cannot be 28 and 23 cc. Normal Romikacin vial contains 2ml.

    And I assumed that you did an Intra Muscular (IM) Injection.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • farikfarik May 2011
    Posts: 317
    Yeah, it should be 2.8cc, i think you used the 1/2cc syringe for diabetics.the markings at the syringe is to measure the units of insulin in iu(dosage for insulin). you should try ip(intra peritoneal) or at the pectoral muscles area would be the easiest.I started jabbing at these sites with no accidents.You can try to change the syringe size to 3ml-5ml so that you don't need to reload if you are jabbing big fishes.Last resort is these jabs....when too often times it happenes that means you need to look at your water rather than jabbing coz after awhile the fishes can develop resistance to the antibiotics used.
    Another thing i noticed and practiced is normally i jab and put the fellow back into the main pond as i believe unless you have a very good qt tank (means all the parameters are good) size of the qt also matters as the strees in the qt plays and important role in the healing process.although my qt tank is 5ftX3ft is still quite stressful for a 60cm koi so it would slow down healing and also sometimes you lose a koi when it jumps out.....arrrgh...those were the not so nice days....
  • RickyFRickyF May 2011
    Posts: 4
    Bor Shukri and Farik,

    You guys are really pro with all the medication names etc. Got a lot to learn from you guys. The 2 kois are making good recovery progress. The skin is getting thicker by the days.

    Bro Shukri,

    Where can i buy Blagdon/Interpet Ulcers medication ?

    I suspect my kois are prone to ulcers recently because I have not changed the corals in the filter for more than 1 year. I was told that corals are not good as it can cause skin problem to the kois and it will affect the colour as well. Ceramic bio rings are better. Can you guys debate on it ie. corals vs ceramic bio rings for growing bacterias? Can I mix corals with ceramic bio rings ?

    On a separate matter, I have discovered a couple of my kois with edge of gill flaps protruding outward? Is it due to oxygen deficiency as I am not using any oxygen/air pump because I don't have many fishes ? The fishes are not struggling to breathe as I see it.

    Thank you.
  • farikfarik May 2011
    Posts: 317
    Bro Ricky,
    Glad to hear the kois are recovering, the blagdon/Interpet ulcer meds you can get at atari,certain big aquarium shops but make sure when you use the interper ulcer med the % of salt is zero or your kois will go back to japan....because blagdon contains formalin that interacts with salt.
    Bro, coral after time will start to break up and will be a heaven for bad bacteria that will constitute to your kois having ulcers.corals also is harder to clean unless you get big ones the size of our fists.Cleaning and maintaining it will be more and issue if you compare to bio rings.On the surface area issue i'm not sure ...as both will create the surface for growing bacteria.
    Gill flaps can be due to oxygen supply and in a different thread was related to the quality of water as well.Do you have any plants in the pond?? You might want to increase the areation in the pond as well (waterfall,air pump,oxydator,oxygen concentrator).How do you define struggling to breathe??all of them just relaxing at the bottom of the pond....or grouping together at the waterfall if you have one.
  • ChicoChico May 2011
    Posts: 65
    Bro farik,
    If kois grouping at the waterfall most of the time, may I know what does it indicates ?
  • farikfarik May 2011
    Posts: 317
    Normally if they group at the waterfall that means the other spots in the pond has low oxygen concentration that is why they are at the waterfall to enjoy the oxygen so you might want to add an air pump to increase the the turbulence and increase the oxygen at other dead spots in the pond.
    Post edited by farik at 2011-05-19 02:18:09 am
  • ChicoChico May 2011
    Posts: 65
    Bor farik,
    Thank you. Think it is time to add an air pump in my pond.
  • StevieStevie May 2011
    Posts: 323
    Air pump is not a long term solution. Grouping at the waterfall indicates overall bad water quality that the fish need high concentration of air/oxygen to combat bad environment as waterfall water is fresher. But again, having airpump is better.
  • StevieStevie May 2011
    Posts: 323
    Still, it depends why this is happening. They could be afraid and frighten and try hiding under waterfall.
  • pslongpslong May 2011
    Posts: 288
    Ricky

    Hows your kois doing? Whats the schedule this weekend?

    Sean
  • PH8PH8 May 2011
    Posts: 683
    Bro Farik, sometimes my koi like to play at the waterfall too. But I don't think it is because of the oxygen level. I've actually measured before, the TDO level at the bottom of the waterfall and at the opposite end of the pond are identical, at saturation point. I suspect they play there because of the higher turbulence level, since my air tubes are located directly below the waterfall. They like to swim against the turbulence, though not all day long. Even humans like to play under waterfalls! :-D

    In ponds where oxygen levels are not very high or water mixing is not so even, then yes, oxygen could be a reason for koi to be near the waterfall.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-05-20 08:14:14 pm
  • farikfarik May 2011
    Posts: 317
    Bro paul,
    Yeah , agreed...turbulence .. i had to learn the hard way... when first start up....had a small pond....no proper water flow... was told by my contractor all the wrong ideas....end up had to knock and rebuild a proper pond that was before found forums,sifus,sharing of ideas..... even now also my doitsu karashi likes to play at the waterfall at the same time munching against the wall for algae....she's non stop eating...maybe that's why she's always there due to the food availability.
  • RickyFRickyF May 2011
    Posts: 4
    Hi Sean,

    I guess you found me. My name cannot be more obvious. I'm off to the Koi Show at Matrade over the weekend. I'll call you.

    Bro Farik,

    I guess I have to throw away the corals and buy the ceramic bio rings which is more expensive but I will save a lot time as fish will not get sick with ulcers. Hell a lot of work to cure them. I almost gave up and release the sick fishes into recreation ponds.

    I got no plant in my pond. The kois are swimming steadily and breathing rate seems normal and they are not going to the water surface trying to grasp for air. Time to buy an air pump. I heard brand like Sonic is cheaper than Hi-blo.
  • farikfarik May 2011
    Posts: 317
    Yeah, sonic is cheaper, does the job just as well.....you have to look into the power as well 65l/min,80l/min or othr models according to your depth and length of the pond.hi blow expensive...maybe more durable I'm not sure as using other brands...maybe other bros can chip in who are using hi blow.
  • ShukriShukri May 2011
    Posts: 4,881
    Suffering from prolong exposure to Nitrite can also cause the gillflaps to curl outwards........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • pslongpslong May 2011
    Posts: 288
    Ricky, Hows your koi?

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