japan breeding seasons are around march till august
jumbo tosai are kois that kept at concrete pond with heater and fed during winter season in japan so they grow more than the rest.
usually they are the good quality from the batch/spawn and when at spring (march till june) the lower quality jumbo tosai are sold as tateshita, while some of the best are kept as tategoi tosai and to mud pond
at early winter (sept - nov) those already become nisai and harvested from mudpond, they are sold as nisai, while the best are tategoi nisai and kept another year to sansai

usually tosai gosanke have good "rather small" proportional fin and tail and in young tosai both of them are more transparant (you should compare to same bloodline in its age)

you just put trust on those breeders...thats why big name like sakai, momotaro and dainichi sold fish much more expensive

dont know about others but here in indonesia, tosai can grow to 55-60cm for gosanke and 60-65cm for kawari :D
CMIIW

han

Would be also good to include fast growth rate and the effect on lifespan into the discussion.

Oops double post.

Hi bro han, Thanks for your feedback.
You pointed out one thing thats very critical....'just put trust on those breeders'.

My highlight here is do we just trust the words of the breeders and our local distributors.
They show us a batch of fish that they term them as jumbo tosais, but how are we to be sure and what to look out for that we are not getting a smaller nisai that is of the end of the previous year?

Example is if I buy a Tosai from my local distributor today of which the size is 45cm, and he told me it's a jumbo tosai and it's from June 2013 batch which falls nicely to what your breeding month of Mar till Aug window. How can I tell he's telling the truth or that he himself is not 'conned' by the Japanese breeder as well, that this fish could be well be from Sep-Oct 2012 and that it may be well be just a small size nisai instead?

What to observe to tell? Some hobbyists told me by grabbing the body of the fish if it feels hard and sturdy at both top and botom, it's tosai. If it feels soft at the bottom, it's already a nisai. Others like what you said, the pectorals should look more transparent.

hi bro nivek
there are consequences for unnatural growth (jumbos)...most of it's are the same like us human :P
for koi : bent body (when some of bone cant grow as fast as flesh), dis colouration or stretch scales, stroke or heart attack maybe :-D

i my self finding it very hard to keep tosais and larger koi (nisai or older) in same pond
tosai koi are fast eater, while larger koi eat slowly
so when you give more food to make sufficient to larger koi it will be to much for tosai koi...so they will overgrown and thats not what i want :(
but if i give enough food just for tosai the larger koi will get slim (i never like slim large koi)
do any sifus here have ways for this problem? please share it here

anyway this are 3 tosai that i got at des-feb, 2 of them only cost me less than S$130 :D

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/sakai17cm_zps39aa87d7.jpg
sakai kohaku 17cm got it at end of december 13 (birth date aug 2013)
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/hiutsuri16cmsakazume_zps44ee2b8b.jpg
hi utsuri ginrin sakasume 16cm got it at end of december 13 (dont have certificate)
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/duotosai1_zps2a625715.jpg
a week later in my pond :)
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/ochibatani21cm_zpsc0aade98.jpg
taniguchi ochiba 21cm got it at early feb 14 (forgot to see birth date on certificate)

this are video and picture that taken at 22 march (so almost 3 months period)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yJVlnROcbvo

size around 39-40cm
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/sakai_zpsbc330834.png
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NvQXVWCvGdE

size around 36-37cm
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/hiutsuri_zpsf0740323.jpg

haven't got pic of the ochiba too soon to see the difference, will update later
jumbo tosai with low cost :)

han

Very nice growth bro Han. I too believe the breeders stagger their fry releases - low grade (17-20cm), medium grade (35-50cm) jumbo tosais and high grade (nisai). The difference between 20cm to 50cm is only a couple of months so it makes sense in terms of economic gains to grow them to jumbos.

@bro kekwa
because u mention earlier price range around S$1k to S$3k so i believe the JT came with certificate of breeder and also with date of birth and parents name(oyagoi) of the JT,
that are prices for very good quality top breeder JT (sakai, momo, or dainichi), but even i've never heard tateshita JT for S$3k, i believe this is the price for show tosai or tategoi tosai (one that suppose to be go in nisai mud pond) that being sold because of good relation between dealer and breeder or maybe auction price.
one more thing u could ask the local dealer when the JT arrive from japan, if it came at december or january, i think the koi is not tosai anymore.
the only breeder from northern japan (niigata) that i know can produce 45cm JT only dainichi farm
mean while in southern japan (hiroshima, kyushu) have more short winter time so koi from this area usually bigger. (sakai, momotaro, taniguchi, ogata and omosako)

more about tosai, you might need trained eyes and lots of experience in first hand before you can judge if it was tosai or nisai, i think not many person have this ability

look for skin lustre...usually tosai have rather soft skin, and most of small size nisai looks rather dull, cant really explain it by words but if you keep
at some early age even the shiroji (white part) of the skin still pinkish (look at pic of my kohakus above), you wont get this at old fish

@bro nivek
tosai era now has so many differences, koi fans always expect more and more bigger size even at tosai age, now you can see more of 50cm tosai (high grade not medium :D)

in japan koi farm there are 3 common grade that are sold to overseas that i know
samban ochi (low grade)
tateshita (medium to medium high) sometimes breeder don't have enough space in their mud pond, so they were the best batch of tosai that sold last tateshita
tategoi (high)
the grading is not only by size but quality overall and future expectations, there are some of tategoi tosai that i know sized only 25-35cm :P

the fastest growth period that i experienced in tosai usually in size 15 to 50cm its down hill after, while the most growth i ever encounter was 10 cm/month
so for now i think there is no chance to grow tosai 20cm to 50cm in couple of months (dunno if 5 or 10 years from now) :)
but i agree for most breeders keeping to JT is for strategic economical gains :)

thanks bro han for enlightening.....find 50cm tosai is not so difficult in jimbaran farm..... i ever post in this forum as well for (close to 50) tosai kohaku...bred by jimbaran. link http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/809/sharing-my-jumbo-tosai-kohaku/#Item_16

well its really difficult to differentiate tosai and nisai.....few points already noted by bro han (pinkish shiroji, clear fin....). i will also look at the eye...must be not bulging eyes, beni also i prefer so so and not too sharp...but all and all, trust to the distributor or breeder is the key.

Hi Bros, Thanks for your contribution and feedback.
I will try to post a picture of this fish I'm talking about and hope you guys can give more comments :)

Bros,

Quote " How can I tell he's telling the truth or that he himself is not 'conned' by the Japanese breeder as well, "

I think we can trust the Japanese breeders , it is the local distributors that you should be careful with. Again if you have dealt with the local dist long enough , you would know.

ts

Bros,

Jumbo tosai does not mean the koi will grow jumbo, it depends on the gene and kept environment. During breeding , some babies will grow bigger than others , these are " natural jumbos" , with better chances to grow big. And if these are good quality, will most likely be kept to grow on nisai , and not sold as tosai. Most jumbos tosai we see are "raised jumbo" , they are luckier to be kept and grown over winter. If the jumbo gene is not present , they and most will , grow to same size as their less lucky bros and sisters later at nisai / sansai stage.

So having know this , personally if i would be paying the same for a choice of jumbo tosai or nisai , i would get a nisai.

ts

<blockquote rel="lauts">Bros,

Jumbo tosai does not mean the koi will grow jumbo, it depends on the gene and kept environment. During breeding , some babies will grow bigger than others , these are " natural jumbos" , with better chances to grow big. And if these are good quality, will most likely be kept to grow on nisai , and not sold as tosai. Most jumbos tosai we see are "raised jumbo" , they are luckier to be kept and grown over winter. If the jumbo gene is not present , they and most will , grow to same size as their less lucky bros and sisters later at nisai / sansai stage.

So having know this , personally if i would be paying the same for a choice of jumbo tosai or nisai , i would get a nisai.

ts</blockquote>

Thanks bro ts for your inputs.
I am very glad you made this statement that jumbo tosai does not meant the koi will become a jumbo koi.
This is because this person told me that if I got a jumbo tosai at say 40+cm, this means this koi grows 4cm almost every month to reach this size. She should be deemed as a real potential jumbo fish! Since she has such potential, in her 2nd year, she should grow at an average between 2.5-3cm per month, and in her 3rd year 1.5cm per month. This means she should reach at least 90cm by Yonsai :-))

Logical , more likely for a karashi or chagoi , non gosanke. Seldom if any see it locally with a gosanke. I have a karashi growing like that , now Yonsai abt 87+cm from tosai.

It is good to have patience to grow kois .

ts

@bro kekwa
i've got 16months of benigoi (sakai, dynamite spawn) size about 70cm at dec 2012...now after 14 months later it only grow 8cm :)
koi growth are not like that generally, i think :-D

Exactly. Bcos this person does not believe the sakai sanke I got is a jumbo tosai at 44cm (spawn May 2013 as per cert) and insisted is a tail end undergrowth nisai.
Hence he used the analogy that I described above and told me that if mine is really jumbo tosai, it should grow in that manner.

Interesting read guys.......
I until today, I am trying to grasp what a Jumbo Tosai is? Definitely not Jumbo growth potential. From what I gather, Jumbo Tosais are those that are significantly bigger than their peers. How this come about? This can be a lengthy discussion, but nevertheless, we can discuss this later.

So, can we actually tell whether a Tosai is in fact a Jumbo Tosai versus those not allowed to grow to Nisai size!!! Well, I believe even the experts find difficulties to initially differentiate......

So how to ensure that we are not conned! I believe we have to deal with professional dealers/middle man/breeders.........

Have I been conned before??? Sure! A few times........ but I get smarter each time.......

Nowadays, I am very safe.......... why??? Because I trust my dealer! He treasures the friendship more than selling kois.......

Hope what I have shared helps you KEKWA.....

Welcome back to forum abang shukri....we are missing ur comment.....already too long inactive :-)

TQ Bro Ming.......... :-D

TQ Bro Shukri for your insights. You are very right. Most of us hobbyists have got conned before in on way or another. But we should learn as we progress.
Lets see how my fish turns out to be. If she doesn't grow, I will never step into that dealer's farm again... :p

Bro Kekwa....if your fish is a controlled growth Nisai...it will achieve superb growth rate in your pond....

I've kept such nisai before, bought at 30cm. (bought in Jan) but she was able to reach 60 within the 1yr in my pond, and subsequently 70cm in the next year. Maybe it is an exceptional case.

In fact, I believed many of the fresh imports 30-40 cm koi avail in Dec/Jan were such nisai, and they have been performing well in growth rate for many hobbyist.

However, if dealer import the tosai at 15-20cm in Oct, they will reach 30-40 in our water by Dec/Jan.

Have you heard before on dealers pack their farm koi in the morning, send to a chill warehouse, and bring in as fresh import in the night? :P

Wow bro pb, your last statement indeed open me to the ugly side. But to be realistic, dealers n farms want to convert their fishes to $$$$. Some will do it the right way, while some may not

haha...end of day....

I buy fish based on what I like...
use eye to choose fish...not ears.

forget about the name, forget about the cert.
have faith and trust in your dealer(s)... :-D

they make their money...we enjoy our hobby....
the rest of stuff, just ignore it!
;-) :)

At the end of the day............ all of us will grow up. The more we learn, the more we know, and the more we know, kind of hard for people to trick us.......

From this hobby that I've learned, the more we know, the less we buy...but less doesn't mean we can save some money :p

Less we buy in quantity, but monetory wise, more and more expensive koi :-)) :-))

Ya ka Kolamp and BT? :-D
Surely not far from the truth........ :-))

If we ask ourselves...assuming price is exactly same and koi quality is 99% same, which one are u choosing? Jumbo tosai or tosai? I believe for every created market there will be targeted segment. Question is who is the targeted segment and why they willing to buy for such a different size in very young age? Koi may reach 5 years or more with proper caring and between 1-5 year is really a long journey. Why do we want to pay more? If u ask me, wit my very limited knowledge and experience i will select bigger one, with hope she can grew faster. But when it priced at >50% higher than ordinary tosai, i will go to tosai and let time decide its future growth...

@bro grinkz
maybe if it is cost 50% more i'll go with JT (almost the same quality)...we get better chance at appetite for food and less chance to get male koi (at 30cm ++ size it is easier to look for fish sex)
just my 2 cents

IMHO, I don't care they are jumbo tosai or tosai. I just look for best strong body within the group and interesting skin/pattern. Sooner or later they would grow big. :-))
Jumbo tosai doesn't mean become jumbo immediately, it will take time to groom them.

My jumbo tosai Showa 35 cm after two years 55-60 cm, my tosai karashi of 20 cm after 15 months 65 cm ++, still worry on Jumbo tosai bro?? :-))

i will take ur opinion as my brainwash bro TK.....really not worthed to pay very high for just what so called as JT

TK and Bro Ming,
I use to go for Jumbo Tosais, but nowadays I am relax a bit...... Am still eyeing for the good body even at Tosais, but these days I look at the over all quality too. These days, I will go for Nisais rather than Tosais.......... save money in the long run........

Look who is talking right!!! :-D

But of course growing from Tosais are a lot of fun........

I also agree with Sifu Bros that a trusted dealer, who knows his koi, counts most.

In my 1st hobby year, I used to buy quite a lot of gosanke "jumbo tosai", but after 2+ yrs the biggest koi (sanke) was around 61cm. On hindsight, I should have guessed from the pricing as well.

I almost give up on my 3-ton pond, until a dealer asked about my situation and showed me 2 sanke from an overcrowded pond. I was very hesitant when he told me they were male, nisai (18 months) and measured only 30cm... but the dealer said no harm trying.

www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/15510/20110625_30-32cm.jpg

Try I did and after 3 yrs, the bottom-most sanke is now 75cm in my pond :)
It's not jumbo by any means, but it's a good feeling to grow out the fish and hopefully more years to come.

bro wklim..inspiring story......3ton can grow 75cm...superb keeping must be! do u have recent pict of the sanke?

note: kohaku on top is stunning piece also.

Thanks a lot, Bro grinkz01 :)

Sorry I did not take any photos when measuring last week, but will share the next time around (prob during pond servicing). However, I have an old video of this sanke back in Nov 2012, measuring 67cm:



I wished I knew exactly what I did right/wrong in the keeping... I just made sure to flush the filter weekly and feed quality pallets. I think the remaining 90% is with the fish :)

Bro, the "kohaku" is actually a male sanke ;) Also in my pond, but not growing at fast as the above piece.

There you go.......... who says tha male cant bulk up and grow big....... :-D

Bros, just to share and hope I can come back to update this thread with personal experience...

I visited my dealer today and we spoke about this jumbo tosai topic. He then showed me 2 tosai (30cm & 33cm, unknown gender), which he thinks has good chance of growing >70cm with quality:

www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/15526/IMG_30196.jpg

www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/15527/IMG_30343.jpg

I couldn't resist and bagged the smaller kuchibeni for my OVERCROWDED pond banghead

It cost me more than 2 Ikarashi kohaku tosai I got recently... the trust with my dealer is again put to the test...

<blockquote rel="Bthineshkumar"> My jumbo tosai Showa 35 cm after two years 55-60 cm, my tosai karashi of 20 cm after 15 months 65 cm ++, still worry on Jumbo tosai bro?? :-))</blockquote>

Bro, we are discussing on gosanke here.
Chagoi and karashi grow jumbo no surprise lah

sharing growth of JT
matsue kohaku female
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv198/Saung_Koi/IMG_1824-27cmcopy.jpg
at 27cm
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/48cm_zps2df03f88.jpg
at 48cm
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/kohakumatsue_zpsadf6ec2c.jpg
at 52cm
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/IMG-20130503-01124_zps2e776a9a.jpg
at 58cm
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/1mat63cm_zps9172255e.jpg
at 63cm
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/Mobile%20Uploads/km1_zps34644164.jpg
at 67cm

she is around 70cm now at her sansai age...will update photo later

han

<blockquote rel="Kekwa"><blockquote rel="Bthineshkumar"> My jumbo tosai Showa 35 cm after two years 55-60 cm, my tosai karashi of 20 cm after 15 months 65 cm ++, still worry on Jumbo tosai bro?? :-))</blockquote>

Bro, we are discussing on gosanke here.
Chagoi and karashi grow jumbo no surprise lah</blockquote>

Even Gosanke, my Showa tosai of 20 cm become 60cm ++ for Nisai wo :-)) :-))

Very good TK.........

<blockquote rel="Bthineshkumar"><blockquote rel="Kekwa"><blockquote rel="Bthineshkumar"> My jumbo tosai Showa 35 cm after two years 55-60 cm, my tosai karashi of 20 cm after 15 months 65 cm ++, still worry on Jumbo tosai bro?? :-))</blockquote>

Bro, we are discussing on gosanke here.
Chagoi and karashi grow jumbo no surprise lah</blockquote>

Even Gosanke, my Showa tosai of 20 cm become 60cm ++ for Nisai wo :-)) :-)) </blockquote>

nice bro...
how about 60cm gosanke tosai? :-D

Thanks Sifu Shukri, it's a good jumbo potential. Only problem, beni strecth even if i control feeding and feed color food. So for now going slow for this lady.

Bro Frost, tosai 60cm??? Well my pocket not that deep for that wo. I might as well enjoy it in photos :-))

@bro kumar
cant get that size from japan farm bro...if it is good quality surely they kept for tategoi or future oyagoi my pockets are not that deep also hahaha

i my self never grow tosai that big before the biggest tosai i ever grown is about 55cm so far...but now i got kohaku (17cm at december) that might be have potential to grow to that size (hopefully :P)
now it has size around 41cm at 8 months (birth date on certificate august 13)
can it still have good skin and overall quality if growing that fast?
before i am targeting 55cm at end of tosai year, but 60cm? challenge accepted! :D :D :D

will update later bro!
han

TK,
Well in life, the faster growers have stretch mark laaaa....... cant be helped!!! :-D

:-)) :-)) Agree

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/kohaku1_zpse3676340.jpg
update on kohaku tosai ^_^ 40.5cm
this kohaku get 2nd prize at 40bu last month at koi show in indonesia...not bad i think since i heard that the 1st prize was bought at 300.000Yen

Bro frostbitez,
Nice looking Kohaku there....... nice 3 steps with Maruten. Love the Shiroji. The Kohaku is still young, I like the kata area.....will eventually develop a hump there which will be nice....

Please give an update from time to time..........

Bro frostbitez, really nice Kohaku (Y)

Nice Hi and sharp Kiwa as well. But this khk may remain short and stout.
So 2nd prize bought at how much xxxxxxyen? :-D

Kekwa,
Any reasons in your opinion that you have observed that this koi should be short and stout? Please share..........

Bro frosbotez,

Congrats on your win.

Bro shukri,

I feel also that the maruten kohaku may look short for the reason that its nose is too short, with a massive upperbody and a shorter body frame. However, I have seen Dainichi kohaku that were more girthy and breeder still confident that koi can reach jumbo given the right environment.

I still believe though in a small to medium size pond 15 to 40tons, it will be easier to raise jumbo with a bloodline that grows long first then add girth at a later stage. In very large pond where koi gets to exercise more a girthy koi can grow faster and better chance to reach jumbo without problems.

Bro Shukri,

Just based on first impression when I looked at the broad girth of this tosai and at the angle the picture was taken. If have opportunity to see the real fish, my opinion may be different.
Nonetheless a stunning looking khk jumbo tosai. Should win more prizes in her days to come. Is it from momotaro?

This is my Sakai sanke that made me to start this thread.
Many still think she is a nisai and that I've been taken for a ride. Whatever it is, I've gotten over it and just continue to keep her and see how she develops from here :)
www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/15650/IMG_3706.png

Kekwa,
Your Momotaro piece is looking nice.........

<blockquote rel="Shukri">Kekwa,
Your Momotaro piece is looking nice.........</blockquote>

Bro, from Sakai lah....

<blockquote rel="Shukri">Bro frostbitez,
Nice looking Kohaku there....... nice 3 steps with Maruten. Love the Shiroji. The Kohaku is still young, I like the kata area.....will eventually develop a hump there which will be nice....

Please give an update from time to time..........</blockquote>

thx bro...will update later just right at the end of tosai year

<blockquote rel="nivek">Bro frostbitez, really nice Kohaku (Y)</blockquote>

thx bro

<blockquote rel="Kekwa">Nice Hi and sharp Kiwa as well. But this khk may remain short and stout.
So 2nd prize bought at how much xxxxxxyen? :-D </blockquote>

imho
this kohaku 2nd step sashi is lil bit anoying actually
and if i may know, why is the kohaku may remain short and stout?
this photo taken at 8 months age (april)...bought it at 4 month (december) 17cm at 25000 yen aproximately
already post in front of this thread...will update the other 2 tosai later

<blockquote rel="Kekwa">This is my Sakai sanke that made me to start this thread.
Many still think she is a nisai and that I've been taken for a ride. Whatever it is, I've gotten over it and just continue to keep her and see how she develops from here :)
www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/15650/IMG_3706.png</blockquote>

good sanke bro
but the bone at shoulder is lack of girth, will grow long but don't hope to get bulky build
cmiiw

Oops sorry there Bro Kekwa.......

I dont get the fascination with girthy koi at a young age and then size possibly stalls in length instead of koi that grow faster in length first then possibly not girth? To make a koi girth once its metabolism slows down is easier compared to make a koi with slow metabolism grow.

Many hobbyist here like matsunosuke sankes as compared to Malaysia, singapore, etc.

That's the beauty of this hobby............different hobbyists prefer different things. That's how the world evolve. If everyone likes a Toyota, then the other brands will vanish with time.

Not everyone likes big kois above 80cm......... Eventhough I like Jumbos, so far I do not have any swimming in my pond.......

I do not believe there is a big percentage of hobbyist who do not like jumbo. The fact that farms that are consistently able to produce high quality jumbo koi attest to this observation. However if there is a choice of choosing a poor quality jumbo vs a high quality smaller koi, then the smaller higher quality koi wins.

The key IMO in aiming for high quality jumbo gosanke koi without breaking the bank is to forget about koi show and even go with unpopular pattern as long as the signs of jumbohood and high quality longer lasting skin is there.

Very true, but there are a few that are not fond of Jumbos........... and for certain that I belong to the group that are obssess with big large bodies..... :-D

Growing Jumbos are not a problem to some hobbyists here in Malaysia........but a koi over 80cm has aluded me so far.......... Hope one day I will be there........

<blockquote rel="Shukri">That's the beauty of this hobby............different hobbyists prefer different things. That's how the world evolve. If everyone likes a Toyota, then the other brands will vanish with time.

Not everyone likes big kois above 80cm......... Eventhough I like Jumbos, so far I do not have any swimming in my pond.......</blockquote>

i agree with you with this one bro shukri
people do prefer different things
anyway i hope you dont see strech mark at my kohaku for growing 24cm @4 months :)

<blockquote rel="HDCu">I dont get the fascination with girthy koi at a young age and then size possibly stalls in length instead of koi that grow faster in length first then possibly not girth? To make a koi girth once its metabolism slows down is easier compared to make a koi with slow metabolism grow.

Many hobbyist here like matsunosuke sankes as compared to Malaysia, singapore, etc. </blockquote>

imho
there was time that i believe that also...until i prove it is not true :)
koi also can grow length fast with bulky posture even since small size...its all just in genes and keeping style
i've had 2 of them just like that both are not expensive koi but both grow nicely with girth along the process
will post here if you guys dont mind...
And i've seen a group tosai sakai that priced more than 250,000 yen...none of them are sleek, they all have girth with serious hump/ bone at shoulder area, yeah they tend to be seen as short bodied, but that just because the girth proportion are different
yeah some dealer might say the sleek and long bodied fish that they sold are better but the breeder price told us the opposite :)

anyway this is the 1st price winner that they said was bought @300.000Y tosai

http://koishow.koi-s.org/images/koireduce/KFS-2014-4-25-Imperial-5-MRT-01.jpg

not so sleek also :)

cheers
han

Actually 300k yen tosai range can be the following from the breeder based on what I have been offered:
1. Simple non appealing pattern with good skin with long body and long big head and thick ozutzu
2. Award winning pattern like above with good skin which is koi show potential already

Question: why are both priced the same? Why is the award winning tosai with great pattern not kept by breeder for another year to be sold for at least 600k? Why is some simple pattern tosai being sold by the breeder/dealer for same price as well?

Would love to hear the answers from Bro HDCu...........

300k yen tosai is considered very high quality koi with most famous breeders in Japan and can even be put in the mudpond already to be raised as nisai however these prices are not yet the top ten ranked tosai yet.

Now if the breeder thinks a koi has good skin, good girthy body and great pattern and a female enough for it to win easily in a koi show in smaller size then 300k is justifiable.

If the breeder thinks a female tosai has good skin, good body conformation for its size based on his knowledge on his bloodline, with great potential to ba a big beautiful koi in the future even if it does not win a koi show then he will price it 300k as well.

If we are talking about what would have a chance to win in a koi show then the first one has higher chance.
If we are talking about whats the bigger chance one ends up with a high quality jumbo in the future then the latter is more appropriate choice.

If you want both jumbo and big chance to win as GC then prepare to spend more.

<blockquote rel="HDCu">
Actually 300k yen tosai range can be the following from the breeder based on what I have been offered:
1. Simple non appealing pattern with good skin with long body and long big head and thick ozutzu
2. Award winning pattern like above with good skin which is koi show potential already

Question: why are both priced the same? Why is the award winning tosai with great pattern not kept by breeder for another year to be sold for at least 600k? Why is some simple pattern tosai being sold by the breeder/dealer for same price as well?



</blockquote>

Hi guys
actually 300k Y for a taniguchi farm tosai considered as a tategoi bro, sorry forgot to mention that it was from taniguchi (2nd tier breeder) so it will be more expensive if it was from sakai, dainichi or momotaro
if you guys cant get good prospect jumbo tosai fish with award winning patern @300k, i think you guys seriously need to find a better pricing dealer.

this is my most expensive buy so far for koi, small sakai sanke nisai (48cm @dec 12) bought less than @125k Y already with dealers fee :)
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/sankesakai.jpg
@48cm
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/sankesakai2_zpsd1b77fe3.jpg
@56cm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nGORPgIitc
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/1_zps6e615fc4.jpg
@65 or 67cm forgot

this is last pic and video of her taken at last january she was sized around 68cm at her sansai age
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/12_zps1a3ace45.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG3H2fTalGg

dont know if it was right but lot of friend told me to getting this sanke to contest (after having minor surgery at tail area)...they said she has a show potential
but i'am not the one who liked getting my fish to contest/show...always feel sorry for koi that has to go to koi show :)
actually the kohaku are my first koi that i took to koi show...it was a keeping contest among my koikichi friends here that are judged by few of japanese breeder at last koi show, so while that fish is already there why not? :)

about tail tube...just one in many other factor for having jumbo koi
chagoi with small tail tube bought at ake nisai @november 2013 61cm (born around febuary 2012 local breed)
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/chagoi61cm_zps78c174ad.jpg
1 months later in my pond
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/chagoi1_zps928c19dc.jpg

early march at her early sansai year 70cm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSwinA0deL0
still small tube right?..growth are okay i think

anyway...i dont see any problem from growing both of our kohaku to jumbo size
(if it was female of course...still dont know sex of my kohaku)
maybe my eyes missed it...
care to give explanation for us what makes both of our kohaku cant grow jumbo?
because actually i've heard from the previous owner of that kohaku; paul of koibito japan over dinner last week...that he said he bought that kohaku not only for its contest material but also its growth potential :)

cheers
han

Nice Sanke Han......... (Y) Hope the already nice Sumi to be lacquer Black.......
For a minute there, I thought this is a Doitsu Sanke......... I cant really see the scales.
A truly remarkable Sanke.............

With regards to Bro @Kekwa original question, just to share a photo of my 3 koi fries at 1 month old, all of which were born on the same day from the same parents. As you can see the size difference is really significant even at this early age.

koianswers.com/discussion/download/15654/koi fries.jpg

<blockquote rel="nivek">With regards to Bro @Kekwa original question, just to share a photo of my 3 koi fries at 1 month old, all of which were born on the same day from the same parents. As you can see the size difference is really significant even at this early age.

koianswers.com/discussion/download/15654/koi fries.jpg</blockquote>

hi bro nivek
yeah actually there will be a canibalism among them if the size has significant difference so you dont see the smaller ones.
:)

<blockquote rel="Shukri">Nice Sanke Han......... (Y) Hope the already nice Sumi to be lacquer Black.......
For a minute there, I thought this is a Doitsu Sanke......... I cant really see the scales.
A truly remarkable Sanke.............</blockquote>

thx bro Shukri

just yesterday sold all my bigger fish (more than 60cm) for renovation purpose
and my benigoi surprise me...she is 80cm while still in sansai age :)
this is my first 80cm koi @my 15T pond (include filtration) she was kept more than a year in my pond
also proving to 1 of my senior it was wrong that you cant grow 80cm fish in small pond :D
anyway too bad i dont have pic of her in measure tank when she was taken out from pond...but she cant have a straight posture in her 80cm box so i'm guessing shes already 80cm

this is her last video (showa was 60cm, kohaku around 70cm maybe)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6nhgdBDNGA


cheers
han

(Y) (Y) (Y)

hi guys
yesterday i'm starting to renovating my pond so while moving out the fishes i took some pics of my 2 tosai
this are development of this tosais

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/ochibatani21cm_zpsc0aade98.jpg
21cm @early feb
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/hh_zps4c365a05.jpg
40-41cm @may

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/hiutsuri16cmsakazume_zps44ee2b8b.jpg
16cm @end dec
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/1finalss_zpse1bf1916.jpg
43cm @may

growth are not special but now they are count as jumbo tosai with very cheap price :-D
han

Wow bro han, your grooming skills solid!
Love your ginrin hi utsuri growth... (Y)

=P~ =D>

Not bad Bro Han.......

Hi Bros,

It's been 1 year and I have latest updates to share on my own kohaku tosai grow-out :)

A bit of history first... back in Apr'14, four kohaku tosai (8 - 10 months old) went into my pond when they were around 30cm - 32cm. Three of the bigger ones were from a well-known breeder and supposedly jumbo tosai batch. The dealer then recommended a fourth tosai from another pond by his regular breeder. It was the smallest at 30cm and also has pale yellow beni, but I liked the kucibeni pattern and overall package.

I couldn't believe when I was quoted the kuchibeni's price, which was as much as all the other three "jumbo tosai" in total... my dealer just said he's not sure yet how the jumbo tosai batch will develop, so he's already discounting on them! banghead

Side-by-side pic of the kuchibeni tosai (30cm) and one of the bigger "jumbo tosai" (32cm) below:

www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17515/1.jpg

At 12 months old, you can see the jumbo tosai is still slightly ahead in growth. Just scroll to video mid-point, when both surface to feed:






Then, something magical happened in the next 12 months :) At 24 months old, the biggest jumbo tosai is now 58cm, but the kuchibeni had grown to 70cm! I just bowled them yesterday and was really surprised at the actual size. Here's the "after" side-by-side pic:

www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17514/2.jpg




It's probably not clear from the picture/video, but other than size, the difference in skin quality is also visibily obvious now. They were grown from around the same size/age, fed the same food and subjected to the same environment.

For me, this is one of the most personal and enjoyable lesson I had in my years of keeping koi... genetics alone make a BIG difference! A trusted and knowledgeable dealer also helps if you are serious about your koi :D

Happy koi keeping!

Very good and surprising outcome bro (Y)

Thanks a lot, Bro Borman :)
Yes, it was a really exceptional koi which surprised everyone.

I hope Bros will enjoy this solo video as much as I did:

Bro WKLim,

Well done keeping them from 30 to 70cm in 2 yrs ? ( from April 2014 or was it 2013?)
Very nice body and hump on the kuchibeni. Still a long way to go so don't give up on the other 3" jumbo" tosai :-)) more surprises to come ? Are they from Hoshikin ? male/female ?

ts

Thank you, Bro TS! The kuchibeni was from 2013 breeding season, but I only got her from my dealer in Apr'14 @ 30cm.

Yup, no intention to give up the other 3 kohaku (all females) from Igarashi. They are now 55cm - 58cm and still in good shape with nice red beni contrasting against good white ;) I'm keen to observe the development over the years.

wow... thats a surprise man. I think a good dealer really is important

Yes bro, I think it helps greatly to have the right dealer/breeder support, while learning a great deal from them and senior hobbyists.

Bros, just to share another new accquisition on this thread for future update and learning:

www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17517/35cm.jpg

This sanke tosai (ake nisai?) is from 2014 breeding season and currently 35cm. I had been eyeing it since arrival last Dec, but my dealer didn't want to release at that time. It took some "arm twisting" for me to finally secure it last weekend ;)

There's some question mark around the secondary hi on the second step, but I think it's worth the risk considering the overall quality looks good to me... I was told it was never fed colour food as well.



Let's see again in a few months time! :)

Great sharing bro wklim.
So the kuchibeni is from another farm?

bro wklim,

i have issues with the sanke , which farm ? . 2 things
a) The 2nd step - sashi and kiwa both seems to have secondary hi . More to come or will it consolidate.
b) The head looks short due to short distance between eyes and mouth.
c) Body at shoulder and tail ozutsu looks weak , unlikely to grow big.

Hope i am wrong , pls keep us updated. In your hands may grow like the kohaku (Y)
and we all learn something.

ts

Thanks a lot, Bro Kekwa! :) The kuchibeni is from Murakami koi farm and supposedly from Benkei (36th All Japan GC) lineage.

The story is that Murakami bought Benkei as a small nisai from Sakai FF, then sold her to a famous JP hobbyist and groomed her till crowned GC @ 91cm. Benkei then became a parent koi for Murakami. How do I know? My dealer was apparently invovled, having drove Benkei for 16 hours between the farm and show grounds!

Hi Bro TS,

I appreciate your honest thoughts :) This sanke tosai is also from Murakami koi farm.

Believe it or not, these same thoughts crossed my mind earlier when seeing the fish for the first time. But my thoughts shifted upon seeing that it has one of the most promising shape and pattern, compared to other siblings in the batch. No denying that I also place certain trust in my dealer's recommendation.

I hope you are wrong too :D but I really doubt we will see another exceptional example (the kuchibeni really slipped the net.. luckily into my pond!). Frankly, I think it's anybody's guess how the fish itself will develop over time. I will be well pleased if it can show improvement all round and any surprises will be a bonus.

I look forward to more sharing and learning on this example! :)

Bro wklim,

Now the secret is out , why you wanted the sanke. Looks like i will be wrong on the sanke. So now for you to make it good :-D . We seldom see murakami kois here in Msia i think but the story is fascinating , thanks for sharing .

ts

Bro TS, the sanke far from guarantee leh, but yes I'm up for the challenge! No pressure :D

I think Murakami kois are quite interesting in their development and hopefully bros in MY can see more of them. For learning, I for one will be just as interested to see more examples of koi development here. The more the better! :)

Bumped for discussion and updates :-D