Sinking diseases
  • weihanweihan August 2013
    Posts: 318
    Hi all, according to my knowledge, sinking disease is caused by internal bacterial infection, but how do we prevent this to happens? Currently I have 2 more fish which sink and never eat, and before sinking, they actually have gulping problem...Below is a pic of my early sansai Torazo Sanke, 70CM, died this morning after i PP bomb my pond after filter cleaning... Pls share all your experiences for learning proposes, thanks!!

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13813/IMG_3602-Optimized.jpg
  • smokersmoker August 2013
    Posts: 715
    My condolences Bro Weihan, that's a beautiful sanke :-(

    Around more than one year ago, my karashi have similar gulping problem for quite some time and then start to stay at the bottom of the pond.
    After learn and read alot including this forum about gulping and sinking, i started to quarantine and fast the karashi and treated with heater, blagdon anti ulcer for probably 6-8 rounds, pp in between. Total around 2 months.

    Fortunately, she recovered, and behaves normally ever since till date. Just share my experience and wait for sifus to chip in, I'm no expert in treatment.
  • weihanweihan August 2013
    Posts: 318
    Hi Bro Smoker, thanks for your reply... This is one of my favorite Sanke with decent growth... To be able to continue for 6-8 round is not an easy stuff, especially when i do not have a proper quarantine premise for big fish, ammonia level is also a concern... I'll certainly give it a try, thanks for the info...
  • grinkz01grinkz01 August 2013
    Posts: 530
    hi bro weihan...my condolences....i had similar loss. my 75cm kohaku.....my favorite also sinking and doesnt response to any food.
    i did salt + some antibiotic + aeration.....but it didnt help. he'd passaway.
  • weihanweihan August 2013
    Posts: 318
    Thanks bro grinkz01, yes i did salt and aeration also dont help... but my cases is 3 sinking fishes among 40, trying to find out why this happens and ways to prevent this from happening....
  • weihanweihan August 2013
    Posts: 318
    These photo while she at Tosai stage..

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13814/IMG_3618-Optimized.jpgwww.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13815/IMG_3620-Optimized.jpgwww.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13815/IMG_3620-Optimized.jpgwww.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13814/IMG_3618-Optimized.jpg
  • gerrygerry August 2013
    Posts: 777
    Wow... nice fish bro weihan... So sorry for your loss ... :-( Hope your other kois recover...
  • weihanweihan August 2013
    Posts: 318
    Thanks Sis Gerry... Beautiful koi tend to go first....
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar August 2013
    Posts: 1,763
    Sorry for the loss bro :-(
  • KekwaKekwa August 2013
    Posts: 261
    Oh dear....didn't know this is called sinking disease.
    Currently I have a Isa showa that is behaving just like that. Was still feeding well on floating pellets up till last weekend.
  • mangkellmangkell August 2013
    Posts: 1,221
    <blockquote rel="smoker">My condolences Bro Weihan, that's a beautiful sanke :-(

    Around more than one year ago, my karashi have similar gulping problem for quite some time and then start to stay at the bottom of the pond.
    After learn and read alot including this forum about gulping and sinking, i started to quarantine and fast the karashi and treated with heater, blagdon anti ulcer for probably 6-8 rounds, pp in between. Total around 2 months.

    Fortunately, she recovered, and behaves normally ever since till date. Just share my experience and wait for sifus to chip in, I'm no expert in treatment.
    </blockquote>

    Sorry for the loss Bro @Weihan & Bro @Grinkz01,

    Agree with Bro @Smoker that a long term ISOLATION is one of the effective way to combat a Sinking Desease....Parking Problem...or Bottomers...

    When the food smeels is not good enough to attract them....it's time to isolate them...

    Agree 1 to 2 months is the required time frame...

    Get the biggest QT tank possible...2.5m portable canvas tank sample...

    I've treated 4 of my parking problem so far.... Only 3 success with 1 failure.

    Isolate means same water from filter, no food or hand feed very minimal.

    QT with medication & Isolation must prolong for some 6 weeks...

    Good luck... (Y)
    Mickeyko Ducati-Kujamon Chagreemon Brabus#Sexy-Robust
  • kolampkolamp August 2013
    Posts: 222
    Sorry for the loss weihan. It was nice sanke indeed
  • lautslauts August 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Weihan,

    Sorry to hear your loss, you did well raising it. Firstly sinking is NOT a disease but a symptom of something. Just like headache symptom, could be cause by simple migrane to meningitis. It is the cause that we are concerned abt. There are many causes of sinking such as pH drop, fasting, digesting feed, too rapid salinith increase etc. All these can be easily remedied. While sinking caused by damaged air sacs , internal kidney damage , egg impaction etc will be more serious and difficult. So there is no one std cure but dependent on the causes. If you suspect that your sinking is infection , you could try Blagdon AntiUlcer. I have also notice that sinking is also behaviourial as kois are social by nature. They will also copy the behaviour of others , just like handfeeding.
    So you need to do some observation, trial and error to determine the cause of your kois sinking symptom.

    ts
  • HDCuHDCu August 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Weihan,

    sorry for your loss.

    Maybe this will help address future problems:
    1. Are you keeping too many kois in your pond?
    2. Are you feeding too much? Do you practice regular fasting especially for older mature kois?
    3. Is your filter maintenance and filter size enough for the number of feed and kois your are keeping?
    4. Are you doing enough water changes to dilute the DOC and other toxins that accumulate in your pond?
    5. Would you consider a probiotic supplement?
  • weihanweihan August 2013
    Posts: 318
    Thanks Bro TK and Bro Kolamp....

    Bro Kekwa, do quarantine your fish and treat her ASAP to prevent this from happening....

    Thanks Bro Mangkell, I have order 3 bottles of Kenkona, would wanna treat my whole pond in case there is bad bacterial before i quarantine specific fish...

  • weihanweihan August 2013
    Posts: 318
    Bro @lauts , I have PP bomp my pond, is it sufficient to prevent this from happening if the main reason is caused by infection? another of my showa is also sinking as well, but i believe it is due to damaged of air sac as she have difficult to swim up for food...

    I notice most of the sinking kois actually gulp before they sink, do this behaviour scope down to whats the cause? when they gulp it seem like there is something biting them, but dimilin are unable to cure it....
  • weihanweihan August 2013
    Posts: 318
    Bro @HDCu ,
    1. Yes im keeping quite a number of kois in the pond, but ammonia and NO2 reading are all low at minimal level
    2. maybe im feeding too much, hardly fast them
    3. filter are being flush everyday, support with bead filter that flush every alternative day
    4. daily water topup minimal at 10% to keep NO3 down
    5. probiotic supplement?

    Thanks for the chip in....
  • HDCuHDCu August 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Weihan,

    I will try to answer the issues point per point.

    1. The idea of stocking levels is not just about what we can measure such as ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. There was a study made with regards to the effects of kois in overcrowded conditions. In summary the study indicated that fish kept in overcrowded conditions suffer impaired immune systems as a result of biochemical agents released into the water by the other fish living in the pond.

    This may be natures way of reducing a large population to more acceptable levels. The studies suggest that fish can release immune suppressing pheromones (hormones) in overcrowded conditions. This make the other fish in the system less able to fight disease.

    Although you have a 45 ton pond, you have as you say 40 kois of different sizes and I assume of different sex. I have 11 kois in a 20 ton setup and I feel it looks overcrowded already. Eventually I would like to just have eight kois.

    2. In our quest to grow our kois, we tend to overfeed. Big kois cannot be compared to small kois that can be fed multiple times at higher percentage of koi food as compared to its weight. Big kois that are fed too much will have a shortened life span. The problem is that many hobbyist keep different size of koi which have different feeding needs. Breeders usually recommend to keep same size kois as much as possible in a pond to be able to control feeding requirements. Believe it or not regular fasting of once a week will be more healthy for your kois. Meanwhile with bigger kois you need to reduce feeding intake once in a while for the koi to reabsorb the accumulated fats and eggs. I fast all my large kois for a total of 21 days each year. Do not concern yourself that the large koi will miss its growing period. That is nonsense. Breeder feed so little when they bring in their nisai to their holding ponds and these nisai still catch up in growth when they are grown in hobbyist ponds.

    3. Have you opened up your bead filter lately to check if some detrius have been left over inside the bead filter? Do not rely only on seeing clear water after flushing the valve.

    4. Can I know what is your present tds level? pond and source water tds?

    5. internal bacterial infection can be fatal to most kois. Lacto bacillus laced in food helps maintain enough good bacteria in the gut to keep bad bacteria from harming the internal organs of a koi.

    Growing kois in our tropical weather is not the challenge. The challenge is how to improve the quality as the koi grows, how to maintain this quality long enough and how to keep the koi alive to enjoy them.

  • lautslauts August 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Weihan,

    PP if used correctly will be useful to avoid infection. Question is what PP dosage is correct , idea is to keep the original pink purple for at least 5 hrs. Anything less will not be effective , so leave it for those with ORP meters and sifus. " Gulp before they sink" and something biting them ?
    Consider treating those that display these symptoms with Blagdon Antiulcer in QT only , NOT whole pond treatment. Give those others in pond not affected good water. Consider what bro HDCu mentioned , i do fasting once a week and on certain time of year. It is good for them.

    ts
  • weihanweihan August 2013
    Posts: 318
    Hi bro @HDCu, thanks for your long explanation,

    1. Im trying hard to cull some of the koi and aim to keep only 30 kois

    2. thanks for your advise, i will cut down the feeding frequency to a maximum of 3 times a day....

    3. i always do open up the bead filter and stir the bead inside before i flush, i found this more effective...

    4. I do not know the TDS level of both pond and water source..

    5. Do adding enzyme on food before feeding effective? however, this causes the water to turn cloudy after each feeding, i will try to wait till they dry up before i feed next time..

    thanks for all the info...
  • weihanweihan August 2013
    Posts: 318
    Hi Bro @lauts, thanks for all the info,

    Do kenkona do the trick if im unable to get Blagdon Antiulcer??
    I will start fast my koi once a week from now on...

    Thanks

  • lautslauts August 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Weihan,

    I have not tried kenkona . When you fast your kois you will notice some will be more lethargic than others and some will also sink at bottom esp the biggers ones . They are just resting and conserving resources. They will dash about when disturbed on hope of getting some feed, so do not be alarmed.

    ts
  • weihanweihan August 2013
    Posts: 318
    Yes Bro @lauts, I know the differences, and sinking I mean doenst came out for food and stays down there for weeks, thanks for the clarification :)
  • mangkellmangkell August 2013
    Posts: 1,221
    <blockquote rel="weihan">Hi Bro @lauts, thanks for all the info,

    Do kenkona do the trick if im unable to get Blagdon Antiulcer??
    I will start fast my koi once a week from now on...

    Thanks

    </blockquote>

    For skin ulcer...Yes... worked for me...after 3 rounds though...(Y)
    Mickeyko Ducati-Kujamon Chagreemon Brabus#Sexy-Robust
  • mangkellmangkell August 2013
    Posts: 1,221
    <blockquote rel="weihan">Hi bro @HDCu, thanks for your long explanation,


    2. thanks for your advise, i will cut down the feeding frequency to a maximum of 3 times a day....


    thanks for all the info...</blockquote>

    Better reduce the volume per feed Bro Weihan...

    Not the frequency...4 times is ok... mine is 4 to 5...

    Some do 6 to 8 times daily...

    From 100g per feed can reduce to 50g for example...

    Cheers... :-D
    Mickeyko Ducati-Kujamon Chagreemon Brabus#Sexy-Robust
    Post edited by mangkell at 2013-08-29 04:54:19 pm
  • weihanweihan August 2013
    Posts: 318
    Hi bro @mangkell, thanks for the add in...


    BTW, i have heard some of the hobbyist said that high amount of protein food may cause this to happens to our koi, is this true?
  • HDCuHDCu August 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Br Weihan,

    Very high protein food is ok for tosais and in moderation is ok for older kois. But do remember that because not all food are created equal. It also depends on your objective, if your objective is to show all your kois in a koi show then higher protein food is the way to go. Do remeber that higher protein food will polute your water faster as such your filter should be able to handle this. Also note that many show kois have shortened lifespan. I do not believe though that higher protein food will result in faster growth in length.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-08-31 08:04:34 am
  • weihanweihan September 2013
    Posts: 318
    Hi bro, thanks for your advise...
  • ghyeapghyeap September 2013
    Posts: 8
    Sinking disease are cause by anaerobic bacterial attack to the fish internal organ starting in the guts and intestine region during the early stage. It cause much pain thus causing the fish to remain as still as possible. At this stage the fish will feed very little and gradually stop feeding.

    For further advice please email me at ghyeap2u@gmail,com
  • KChongKChong September 2013
    Posts: 348
    Hi Bro Weihan,

    First of all, sorry for your loss.

    The is an article in Koi Digest by Mark Garner which mentioned that one of the possibility of sinking disease is due to pond more than 1.5M depth and I kind off agree with his opinion since my pond is more than 1.5M depth and also had lost some kois due to this sinking symptom with no obvious disease infection.

    Having said that, bacteria infection couple with the depth which is >1.5m will definitely increase the risk of having sinking symptom in koi.
  • lautslauts September 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Yeap ,

    Possible to share your advise ?

    Thank you in advance .
    ts
  • ghyeapghyeap September 2013
    Posts: 8
    Bro Lauts,

    Please email me for detail advice because it will be improper for me to suggest a certain product by mentioning it's brand name in this forum.

    "I can assure every koi lovers here that sinking symptom are not related to the depth of pond".
  • weihanweihan September 2013
    Posts: 318
    Thanks bro ghyeap and KChong for your comment..

    Bro ghyeap, do have check your inbox thanks..
  • lautslauts October 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Guys ,

    Sharing what was informed by ghyeap , he would not want to name the product. But explanation below.

    ts

    " When fishes are attacked by bacteria they will become very stress and release a lot of slimy mucus (which are mainly protein) via the mouth and gills. This protein will act as feed to bacteria and mostly stick on wounded area.

    Anaerobic bacteria will strive in the internal organ of fishes and attack the guts and intestine, causing much pain. With this painful discomfort the fish would prefer staying motionless at the pond bottom.

    To have healthy fishes, the pond must be free of pathogenic i.e. bad bacteria. Chemical treatment cannot eliminate all bacteria strain because some will hide in area where chemical can't reach and will mutate into stronger strain each time you increase the dosage or potency of the chemical used.

    The best way is by using probiotics i.e. good bacteria to attack and eliminate bad bacteria at the earliest stage possible before they have a chance to mutate to stronger strain. Probiotics will penetrate into any area where bad bacteria is and eliminate it totally.

    This probiotics, will be of help to solve this problem and is available at Yamakoshi Mura, Atari, Hua May and most aquarium shops.

    Our products are 100% probiotics and is the cheapest in the market but had the most bacterial strains (22 in total) including "Saccharomyces boulardii" which is the strongest strain in the world, for internal ulcer treatment. Our R & D department conduct constant research on the latest mutated bacteria strain and regularly upgrade our products.

    With proper application, our product can very effectively solve problems like: stabilizes pH, eliminating algae, ammonia-nitrite-nitrate, protein, skin ulcer, internal ulcer and all pathogenic bacteria like Salmonella, E. Coli, Aeromonas andVibrio.

  • kolampkolamp October 2013
    Posts: 222
    Sounds like those bacteria tablets bought during yama cup last time...forgot the name pulak :O

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