Pond Layout
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Ok you are correct that a sheet of japanese mat has a specific area of 22 square meters. That still leaves me a lot of surface area considering I have 80 liters of glass sintered media.

    Kindly provide us the scientific study link of the smart alec where you got the idea of the surface area and the amount of ammonia and nitrite, a 4 x 8 feet mat would handle. I would present this to my dealer who has even insisted that I have too much mats installed based on his experience in helping hobbyist build ponds. His partner beleive it or not does not even have a single mat but just multiple vortexes that he flush religiously on a weekly basis in his personal pond for more than 15 years! He has grown jumbos without problem in his old pond.

    My Japanese matts have stayed green and not brown. Are you saying that there are no nitrifying bacteria colony living in the matts? What about the real ERIC filters all over the world operating with " spot clean white ERIC mats), are they not processing nitrification? If not, how are they accomplishing this?Just by a measly 3 percent water change a day or even less?


    Now having enough SSA that can house bacteria is not enough. One has to consider how many molecules of water gets to touch the SSA where bacteria colonies are living. Nitrifying bacteria are very very efficient in processing ammonia and nitrite. Nitrifying bacteria have long generation times due to the low energy yield from their oxidation reactions. Since little energy is produced from these reactions they have evolved to become extremely efficient at converting ammonia and nitrite. Scientific studies have shown that Nitrosomonas bacterium are so efficient that a single cell can convert ammonia at a rate that would require up to one million heterotrophs to accomplish. Also once a nitrifying bacteria has attach to the filter media, it cannot be easily be remove by just heavy aeration and flushing (we see this in mature filters in bead filters and fluidized bead systems.)

    We often hear about the term "blocked filter". Water will always find the easiest route. If a filter like for example fine sand gets blocked, minimal water will then flow through and water will just find the next faster route. Nitrifying bacteria needs lots of oxygen to survive. If a filter media gets block like a buildup of Sludge or thick brown fines, the nitrifying bacteria dies because of the lack of oxygen brought about from the flow of water. Pressurized sand filters are so effective in capturing waste that it gets more easy for it to get blocked if not enough backwashing is performed. I have mentioned in my earlier post why I need a filter cloth in the trickle showers. I need it not that it can capture small waste that may pass thru like what a sand filter with bigger sands do but also it also helps protect the useful life and efficiency of my glass sintered media. Instead of just months before it needs cleaning, it can now be used for years without maintenance.

    Have you seen a bakki shower in action and how it can generate foam? Compare apples to apples and not to oranges. How can you compare a pond with a bigger surface area for example with just a few aerators in diffusers that form big bubbles with a different filter setup ( much less aeration) with multiple surface skimmers with mine and conclude I might have higher DOCs or have excess ammonia in my pond that cannot be process? I compare mine with setups similar and IMO I generate much less foam. Foams also has to be differentiated not only in size but also in color. Is it white, yellow, green or brown.

    What about the foam that get suck in the skimmer? Well some of it may mix with the water while some will stay in the filter chamber where it gets flushed out. In your setup how do you measure your DOC? If you off your UV and let in more sunlight, would you experience an algae bloom?

    ERIC mats are made from plastic material as also fiberglass, How can it disintegrate and become sand which has a different composition. Guess again.

    In essense, I believe an hour turnover is sufficient. I had this debate with my dealer long time ago. Here is my explanation, I look at a pond setup as just a giant aquarium. In an aquarium, you have a much faster turnover because the number of inhabitants in the relation to the body of water is higher, it is still cheap to run it, and most important you get a much clearer aquarium. In a koi pond, as you increase the turnover rate it you would need more or bigger pumps to achieve it and thereby more costly as such dealers would recommend the minimum turnover ratio to " grow the koi". Dealers cannot scare new comers in this hobby and present him that he needs to overdo his ponds with more pumps that would eat more electricity.

    On the other hand, I am not a new comer in this hobby. I believe in the principle, to achieve more one has to do better. I considered a higher turnover for the following reason.
    1. faster mechanical filter action. Pond will stay clear faster. Assuming I overfeed or overstock, at least the waste or will be suck faster by half time. Less time the waste settle in the pond, less chance it disintigrates and becomes harder for the filter to process.
    2. faster turnover means more movement in water in the form of either more shower rurbulence, more midway return, more current for the kois to exercise.
    3. double pump allows some flexibility. In the event One pump goes down, I still have a one hour turnover. In the event of a very long brownout in an overstock pond with fish that has just been fed, a faster turnover to process the accumulated waste and chemicals would be better.
    4. Bakki showers are more effective with more turnover.
    5. Faster turnover within a heavily aerated filter will produces a higher DO within the pond.

    Cheers.

    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-24 06:11:34 pm
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Harry,

    Quote:
    I believe the biological filtration is never matured as any brown slimy deposits (these are colonies of beneficial bacteria) that accumulate in it are power washed away......

    Are you saying that this brown thing is beneficial?

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13202/Chamber.jpg

    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-24 08:14:30 pm
    Attachments
    Chamber.jpg 166K
  • frostbitezfrostbitez June 2013
    Posts: 109
    good evening bro Harry
    I live in Jakarta
    My small pond(13m3 pond+4m3 filter) is located outdoor with high shading structure (+-7,5m from pond surface) that give sun from 7 to 11am direct to pond
    turn over is around 18m3 (using 2 tsurumi 40pu 2.15)

    without bakki pond temp around 29-31c (dawn and afternoon)
    with bakki from 28-29c, not much but still counts right :), lately i tried adding a spraybar which i learnt from this forum (thx guys) the temp can go as low to 26,5-27,5c
    right now still trying to make a small cooling tower but only manage get 25,9c (dawn)
    i did notice gaining higher saturated oxygen due lower temp
    getting 7,8ppm from do meter reading (before around 7,1ppm)

    thx, han

    Post edited by frostbitez at 2013-06-24 08:48:19 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro lauts

    TQ for the warm welcome. Miss you lah....

    The numbering used here mirrored the numbering you used....

    (a) Ya loh..... that is what I understand..... A lot of water is required for ammonia excretion. Fish is aminothelic organism and therefore excrete directly into the water to maintain chemical homeostasis. All this ammonia come from the the protein inputs and practically very little or near zero from the feces of the fish as they are mainly fibers. Ok.... partial digestion do happen and therefore one will argue the undigested part will eventually turns to ammonia by the composers.

    (b) Manke Sanke said about how little ammonia is added from koi waste breaking down just wondered is we are simply over thinking the issue....

    (c) Ok. Noted. May I know.. beside nitrite..... why hobbyist salt their pond? Does it provides some medicine value when the fish is sick?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening bro HDCu

    Quote
    I have 80 liters of glass sintered media.

    Comment
    The sintered glass products will plug up eventually and therefore must be periodically replaced. Due to its porous nature... it will encourages the colonisation of both aerobic and some anaerobic bacteria.So.... the anaerobic bacteria will not go to the main pond? In your case... you have this magic polyester fine fabric to prevent clogging.... unless you have a very good pre filter system it will clog.

    May I know its filtration performance ability w.r.t total ammonia?

    Quote
    I would present this to my dealer who has even insisted that I have too much mats installed based on his experience in helping hobbyist build ponds.

    Comment
    So....may I know how your dealer size up for you?

    Quote
    My Japanese matts have stayed green and not brown. Are you saying that there are no nitrifying bacteria colony living in the matts?

    Comment
    Not mature yet and still at its infant stage.

    Quote
    What about the real ERIC filters all over the world operating with " spot clean white ERIC mats), are they not processing nitrification? If not, how are they accomplishing this?Just by a measly 3 percent water change a day or even less?

    Comment
    Not that white if you care to revisit the video I have uploaded with the man himself there explaining how his system can confuse the water. I think it will not be appropriate for me to say that his system will not have nitrification bro..... His system use a flowrate five times slower than yours. How are you going to explain what is his rationale for that recommendation? Yours is nearly every 30 mins bro...

    Quote
    Also once a nitrifying bacteria has attach to the filter media, it cannot be easily be remove by just heavy aeration and flushing (we see this in mature filters in bead filters and fluidized bead systems.)

    Comment
    This will certainly be true of very newly established filters, this is certainly not true of established filter bio-films.

    May I know is your understanding a bio-film a continuous monolayer surface deposit of bacteria that consist of both colonising and free swimming plank-tonic bacteria?

    Quote
    We often hear about the term "blocked filter"

    Comment
    Mine is not blocked. Is yours? No right. We are not talking about block in total here bro...... We are talking about the strong turbulence with those solids present will have an abrasion effect on the bio-film. You see..... sands also present (he needs to study it....meaning he has no cue about it)..... the sand or solids that is present there is like shot blasting the bio-film..... thus always white like you have described. I question whether that has intact a detrimental effect on establishing a MATURE bio-film to be form in the mats.

    Bio-flim is similar to like the plaque that is build up of calcified deposit on the enamel of our teeth. hehehe.....It was discovered that plaque is in fact a semi-aquatic bio-film with a living structure encased in a semi solid matrix with surface bacteria multiplying and adding to the mass but with sub-surface bacteria contributing to the ecosystem and adding inner strength.

    Quote
    Have you seen a bakki shower in action and how it can generate foam?

    Comment
    My koi dealer premises have multiple of it....... no foams bro.

    Quote
    ........conclude I might have higher DOCs or have excess ammonia in my pond that cannot be process

    Comment
    It is not a hypothesis bro.... it is a fact. You have plenty of inorganic activated granular carbon in your pond. Do you know that this inorganic carbon can be converted to organic in nature by certain bacteria. When you have high organic carbon in your water.... what will happen? 1st Nitrification rates will go down the hill. 2nd you will upset the carbon cycle. 3rd the Clavin cycle also affected.

    I have not heard of a pond where the total ammonia reading is zero. The koi continuously excrete ammonia throughout the day. It depends on the sensitivity of the testing method you have employed.

    Quote
    I compare mine with setups similar and IMO I generate much less foam. Foams also has to be differentiated not only in size but also in color. Is it white, yellow, green or brown

    Comment
    huh? so complicated one ar? You are trying to tell me the different colours represent different grade of problems? Please share with me.

    Mine.... no foam....in the main pond and/or in the chambers. So I am puzzle actually. Your system suppose to be the next generation of filtration system when it was 1st put up for deliberation. I am interested to know why it has turned otherwise.

    In your investigations..... what cause the foam then?

    Quote
    If you off your UV and let in more sunlight, would you experience an algae bloom?

    Comment
    I have off it for a few days before but no bloom. May be the short period it was off is non conclusive. However.... I think it is unlikely as I have established an ecosystem whereby the nitrate and phosphate will be taken by the plants which is flourishing green green and healthy.

    Quote
    ERIC mats are made from plastic material as also fiberglass, How can it disintegrate and become sand which has a different composition. Guess again.

    Comment
    From the cement sand mortar remain that was not cleaned up previous inside the BD loh....

    So has PW found out yet? Why is he taking so long to investigate?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good morning bro TomyC

    No.... those are gunk. hehehe.....
    Those oyster shells you placed in your last chamber before the pump?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good morning Bro frostbites

    Thank you for your feedback.

    Do you by any change measures the RH values when you are taking those readings? Or alternatively what is the RH value typically like in Jakarta at dawn and in the afternoon.

    Another thing.... did you restructure you air and water pumps before this?

    Interesting readings and I would like to study a bit more.

    Cheers
  • frostbitezfrostbitez June 2013
    Posts: 109
    morning bro harry

    currently i'm not in jakarta, will update on humidity value when i get back
    i often doing "stuff" to my pond :D
    but i remember add another hiblow and diy venturi and making my pond looks like jakuzzi tub :-))

    c
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Morning Bro Harry,



    Quote

    The sintered glass products will plug up eventually and therefore must be periodically replaced. Due to its porous nature... it will encourages the colonisation of both aerobic and some anaerobic bacteria.So.... the anaerobic bacteria will not go to the main pond? In your case... you have this magic polyester fine fabric to prevent clogging.... unless you have a very good pre filter system it will clog.

    May I know its filtration performance ability w.r.t total ammonia?

    Comment:

    Of course it will even momotaros Bacteria House media gets block but it takes years if there is Sufficient prefilter. In the event it gets block( cannot absorb water anymore) it can still be reuse by dipping it in strong muriatic acid.

    Siporax unlike BHM is shaped like small rings. Aerobic bacteria will grow on the surface while anaerobic will populate the insides. I suppose 20 to 30 percent of its given surface area can support aerobic while 70 to 80 percent is reserved for anaerobic. Since a liter has 220square meter of surface area, it probably has a minimum of 40 square meters of surface area per liter for nitryifying bacteria to grow on. Anaerobic bacteria colony encouraged to populate inside are nitrate eating bacteria and would not populate in an aerated environment like the outside of the glass sintered. If lots of detrius blocks the porous structure of medium, anaerobic nitrate eating bacteria would be deprived of their energy source to survive. If the detrius decompose inside the media there will be rotten egg smell which is not good.

    Unlike mats though they have no mechanical filtration ability.

    Quote
    So....may I know how your dealer size up for you?

    Comment:
    My dealer has recommended just five mats would be sufficient and to save on money just add when necessary.
    Btw, have you found the link of the "smart alec" who studies how much surface surface area for nitrifying bacteria to live on needed to remove the amount of ammonia released by kois? I think we are eager to see how the study was performed and conclusion was achieved.

    Quote
    Not mature yet and still at its infant stage.

    Comment:
    If thats the case, I am ecstatic that my filtration still have more to give out to take care of bigger fish. So how long do you surmise a Japanese mat filter will mature?

    I think very simple. In every pond, there will be different stains of bacteria. Each does it jobs whether it may good or bad. The true nitrifying bacteria cannot demineralized the waste nor can it remove nitrates. It does play the most important role in keeping ammonia and nitrite levels very safe for the inhabitants. If a system keeps having blimps of ammonia spike or high nitrite, this means one may have i sufficient filtration or enough nitrifying bacteria to handle the number of kois or the amount of feed.

    On the other hand, despite my daily flush, I do not experience any ammonia or nitrite spike at all. Even if I dont clean the filter for a week( I have tested this several times, TDS however will very slowly creep up) there is still no ammonia spike. I will of course always have very safe levels of ammonia present in my pond as there will always be kois whether I feed them or not.

    Demineralizing bacterias on the other hand have separate functions. Many make the wrong assumption that a green pond is wrong and crystal clear equates to the best healthy environment. It not too uncommon you hear some hobbyist saying, " I dont clean my filter regular but look at
    how clear it is and how hungry my fish are. " Once I clean my filter, I have algae problems again and some of my kois get sick!" Conclusion: Clean less often. They do not understand that it could have been possible that their system has turned anoxic where heterotropic bacteria ( good and bad but with much more in numbers) have now dominated his filtration. If you can keep only the good heterotropic bacteria then lucky for you but what happens if the bad bacteria dominates and gets release into the pond?

    Quote:
    Not that white if you care to revisit the video I have uploaded with the man himself there explaining how his system can confuse the water. I think it will not be appropriate for me to say that his system will not have nitrification bro..... His system use a flowrate five times slower than yours. How are you going to explain what is his rationale for that recommendation? Yours is nearly every 30 mins bro...

    Comment:
    His rational is simple. His boxes hold less water and much less space than mine does that to increase the flowrate would decrease also the retention time and not allow sufficient reduction of pressure inside the boxes thereby preventive effective settlement of waste. His boxes are rated at just five minutes retention time so is mine. I have two separate systems. Each one can only do an hour turnover. My pump is rated only double the capacity to what he recommends to his largest box. But Each of my filter system is twice as long and a little less than thrice the volume of his biggest box, the E4 too.
    My settlement part is three times bigger than the ERICs settlement part(which I find it too small). . I still have space to add three more mats sheets, or 100 liters of kaldness in each module If I want to but as of the moment find it already sufficient. Because of the long "river" I also have double the aeration.

    In other words, I did not copy his design, I modified it but still employed the same principles.

    Quote:
    This will certainly be true of very newly established filters, this is certainly not true of established filter bio-films.

    May I know is your understanding a bio-film a continuous monolayer surface deposit of bacteria that consist of both colonising and free swimming plank-tonic bacteria?

    Comment:
    same comment as above.

    I think very simple...


    Quote:
    Mine is not blocked. Is yours? No right. We are not talking about block in total here bro...... We are talking about the strong turbulence with those solids present will have an abrasion effect on the bio-film. You see..... sands also present (he needs to study it....meaning he has no cue about it)..... the sand or solids that is present there is like shot blasting the bio-film..... thus always white like you have described. I question whether that has intact a detrimental effect on establishing a MATURE bio-film to be form in the mats.

    Bio-flim is similar to like the plaque that is build up of calcified deposit on the enamel of our teeth. hehehe.....It was discovered that plaque is in fact a semi-aquatic bio-film with a living structure encased in a semi solid matrix with surface bacteria multiplying and adding to the mass but with sub-surface bacteria contributing to the ecosystem and adding inner strength.

    comment:
    again same answer starting with I think very simple...

    Quote:
    It is not a hypothesis bro.... it is a fact. You have plenty of inorganic activated granular carbon in your pond. Do you know that this inorganic carbon can be converted to organic in nature by certain bacteria. When you have high organic carbon in your water.... what will happen? 1st Nitrification rates will go down the hill. 2nd you will upset the carbon cycle. 3rd the Clavin cycle also affected.

    I have not heard of a pond where the total ammonia reading is zero. The koi continuously excrete ammonia throughout the day. It depends on the sensitivity of the testing method you have employed

    Comment:
    I never admitted having absolutely zero ammonia, only safe levels. The DIY test kit that one buy in any PET or specialized koi shop while it may not be accurate to give the exact reading, it is still a very good indication and guide for the hobbyist. Ph and temperature also play a role of course in the toxicity of ammonia levels.

    I have removed activated carbon before and see no difference in ammonia and nitrite readings. I only keep activated carbon since I found out my neighbor regularly sprays insecticides and if possible remove hormones and phermones.


    Quote:
    huh? so complicated one ar? You are trying to tell me the different colours represent different grade of problems? Please share with me.

    Mine.... no foam....in the main pond and/or in the chambers. So I am puzzle actually. Your system suppose to be the next generation of filtration system when it was 1st put up for deliberation. I am interested to know why it has turned otherwise.

    In your investigations..... what cause the foam then?

    Comment:

    In any pond where there are inhabitants and food thrown in, there will be some DOC. No foaming does not mean no DOC. I never said I do not have DOC, I said I have excessive amounts of aeration in my system and a surface skimmer that I activate only for a few hours a day.
    I suppose your dealer employs surface skimmers? Kindly tell him to off it for a complete day so you can observe the of degree of accumulated foam that will float on the surface. Then take take a scoop of water containing the foam and put it in a glass of water. Observe what is the color. Is the color still the same as the color of his pond or is it more yellowish or brownish or greenish?

    Quote:
    I have off it for a few days before but no bloom. May be the short period it was off is non conclusive. However.... I think it is unlikely as I have established an ecosystem whereby the nitrate and phosphate will be taken by the plants which is flourishing green green and healthy.

    Comment:
    So what is your current present nitrate and phosphate and TDS readings of pond water and incoming source? You have a veggie filtration in place? Kindly do share?


    Quote:
    From the cement sand mortar remain that was not cleaned up previous inside the BD loh....

    So has PW found out yet? Why is he taking so long to investigate?

    Comment:
    He has some theories. You can read about it in Them there Koyas.

    Cheers
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-25 03:40:50 pm
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Hi Harry,

    Quote
    ERIC mats are made from plastic material as also fiberglass, How can it disintegrate and become sand which has a different composition. Guess again.

    The sand in the boxes has been verified as being calcium carbonate. No one has been able to tell how's that formed, so if you can shed some light, that's most helpful.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-25 11:33:21 am
  • lautslauts June 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Harry,

    (a) "All this ammonia come from the the protein inputs and practically very little or near zero from the feces of the fish as they are mainly fibers"
    - Even with zero input, fasting 4 days , you will still find more than 1ppm ammonia .
    So no feeding to avoid ammonia spike is not true.

    (c) Ok. Noted. May I know.. beside nitrite..... why hobbyist salt their pond? Does it provides some medicine value when the fish is sick?
    - I think salt is overused by hobbyist now. Not everything ailment befalling our kois requires salt. Salt will cause more problem as it is a stressor. So it is a matter of a lesser evil. Just like use of antibiotics in human, don't take it unless really necessary. Many common WRONG reasons to use salt:

    1) Adding new kois so add salt to prevent disease. - Salt does NOT kill any parasites unless at above 0.6% for only some parasites. It does kill some bacteria including the good ones but we are not sure in our pond. Most parasites already immune to salt since our bros in Japan have overused it.

    2) Reduce stress - Need to know what causes the stress we perceive in our kois. It could be low o2 due to hotter temp. Adding salt will make it worse.

    Only correct reason for me :
    a) Avoid nitrite poisoning.
    b) Kois with bacterial issues like ulcers and open wound. To reduce osmotic pressure thus lesser stress on koi to maintain osmoregulation. Salt works with antiulcer , antibacterias just ensure lots of O2.

    ts




  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good Afternoon Bro frostbilez, Bro HDCu, Bro TommyC and Bro lauts

    To bro frostbilez

    Ok.

    To Bro HDCu

    We are like floating in the endless river flow....... hehehe..... we are not on the same page of the discussion and at time we appear to be recirculating our assertion and opinion without acknowledging the system does show signs of inefficiency.

    Please allow me to recap the matter in discussions:

    We agreed the nitrogen present in the water come from excrement containing organic matter. These organic compounds are oxidised which among other compounds result in ammonium (NH4+) as a product.

    We then go on to discuss the nitrification taking step in the shower trays filter, ammonium in the water is further transformed into nitrite (NO2-) and then further into nitrate (NO3-) by the abundance of nitrifying bacteria there. We assume you have established the bio-film in the shower trays. Ok. then there are basically two main types of bacteria there...aerobic and anaerobic. Proportion of the bacteria community is also estimated. This shower thing with its media is supposed to do degassing and provide re-aeration back into the main pond.

    Now if denitrification step does occur successfully, nitrate is transformed to nitrogen gas (N2) by the denitrifying bacteria present. N2 is release to the air.....water is purified from N2.

    However...... it is obvious there is an abundance of nitrate and phosphate present in the water body to cause the algae bloom in the pond and has caused some nuisance with the daily cleaning of the brushes. Can we simply conclude that the shower thing is not degassing at all?

    We then proceed further with the discussion that carbon is required and is used to obtain energy and to build up the bacteria cells. We all know (or appear to know that) bacteria use the O2 in nitrite and nitrate to break down the carbon source. If there are plenty of free O2 present in the water, it will be used 1st, before denitrification starts. To obtain a maximum denitrification it is therefore important that there is not too much O2 present in the water, since this will be used to oxidised carbon source.

    This part I think we have not reached the same understanding. Can I conclude like this?

    If more O2 is present.....one needs more carbon. In a recirculating system containing body of water containing nitrate and using shower system to degas one needs to deplete the O2 for nitrate to breakdown the organic matter in the water......thus allowing nitrate to be transformed into N2 gas. Somewhere in the exchange of notes..... I have a feeling that the facultative bacteria was implied to be present to assume the role of denitrification as they have the ability to change their metabolism from using O2 as a final electron acceptor to use nitrate instead.

    I then question...... if there are insufficient organic matter and ammonium in the water body.....then what will happen? This part of the discussion was shy away and the nitrification, denitrification and foaming all coming in. hehehe.....

    We then discussed on the waste as a very toxic substance.... like if it is not removed immediately all things will turn bad like there is no tomorrow..... This part still remain open ended.

    The discussions then when on to concentrate on the Erik system vs the traditional system.
    I raised the contentions that they Erik system is hopeless on the following grounds:

    1) It takes up to much of the daily time
    2) it is an enslavement system
    3) It is aesthetically not pleasing
    4) It biological system methodology of treatment is questionable
    5) Noise issue to address and a bunch of unsightly piping networks in full display and compete with the koi pond & its inhabitants.
    6) It is destructive and barbaric to destroy the bio-film and/or will cause the bio-film to take a long long time to mature
    7) I shall now add this one... it generates hard water and will it affects the skin quality of the koi.

    hehehe......

    then..... "to each his own" come into the equation...... There is nothing wrong with this IHMO.

    Every system will work if it is designed and constructed properly. If there are limitations and constraints to part of the design...... this is where we will set a set of rules so that the usage will conform to the design parameters. Indirectly I am pointing out the system is not flexible and forgiving.....

    We then further discussed slightly more tiny into the bio-film thing...... I presented that detachment of bio-film can be and will probably caused by the hydraulic erosion, degradation of starved out bacteria, super saturation and gas bubble formation. Hydraulic erosion that acts continuously on the surface of the bio-film and leads to a steady detachment on the outer side of the bio-film. Degradation of starved out bacteria in the inner layer of the bio-film may have actually weakening the adhesion to the carrier element. These are facts and well documented in the waste treatment study.

    We then proceed to correlate the Erik system and/or its hybrid that it will cause an alarming foaming after 9 months in operation...... The question I have raised is "is foam collecting on the surface of my pond normal?" To me it is not normal and thus it is not efficient as claim.....

    To me... it is ridiculous of you having certain knowledge of ponding to design and allow your pond for this kind of foam to collect. I am not sure whether you have used certain medications or pond additives, particularly those containing Vitamin complexes (water conditioners) to cause the water to foam, detracting from the spectacle of a calmed pond.

    I am also of the opinion that it is common for water to foam as a result of excessive algae growth. Even if this is controlled by a UV, the proliferation of single celled algae can cause water to foam through the organic compounds that are abundantly released into the water.

    Fishless cycle.... you may have added some chemicals unknowingly that has disturbed the equilibrium of the different cycles of activities in the water bodies....

    There is little doubt thAT These bubbles are formed through the stabilising properties of complex dissolved compounds. These largely organic compounds, build up in the water over time to levels which encourage stable bubbles to form.

    Dissolved organic compounds build up through the metabolism of koi and other aquatic organisms, depositing the products of digestion into solution. Protein levels within the water can also increase rapidly through the inappropriate use of higher protein diets, which can leach other soluble compounds into the water, leading to the formation of a foam.

    Such organic compounds are not broken down by the bacteria that work on ammonia, nitrites and nitrates but by a host of heterotrophic bacteria go to work on this diverse range of pollutants. These bacteria are oxygen consumers and are often unable to completely breakdown these organic compounds. In extreme cases, these can lead to the discolouration of the pond water. Your video give me the impression you may be heading toward that direction.....

    The simple act of diluting pond water with purer, less organic-laden tapwater should reduce the formation of bubbles...... but in your case it appears to resist such attempt.

    Bearing in mind that the most likely route through which organic compounds enter the water is through food, it may be prudent to try different diets to find one that will reduce the tendency for your pond to foam. Excessively high protein levels, or diets that leach significantly quicker than other diets will also lead to the annoyance of bubbles. As these can fuel the bloom of algal growth, such measures will also reduce the occurrence of excessive algal growth and their secretion of proteins into the water.

    In addition to the preventative measures above, quite an extreme measure of controlling the formation of foam is the installation of a surface skimmer. Borrowed from the swimming pool industry, surface skimmers are used as a means of taking water from the surface straight to the filter. Consequently, although these are effective, they are only practicable with a wet/submerged filter installation, and only recycle the protein for it to reappear and cause a foam again.

    Protein skimmers. If bubbles want to form, then why not encourage them to do so under controlled conditions in a pond protein skimmer? Borrowed from marine fishkeeping, several pond models are available, and through the vigorous aeration or water movement encourage the formation of a protein-rich foam which is collected and then removed from the pond water. This innovation for ponds is probably the most intriguing and reliable method of reliably keeping foam to a minimum.

    I am sure in your heart and mind.....you know the foam is generally an indicator of excess proteins and fats in the water. it's not uncommon in new ponds at all, but do take care to watch your feed rate as excess food is the most common source of these proteins and fats.
    This has in many ways point me to conclude your biological treatment system is still at its infant stage and/or the endless river flow concept is really a hopeless......


    It is an interesting discussion...... like you say.... to each his own...... I shall respect your design and usage as well. hehehe......


    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    1st it was sand.
    Ok.... is it....Calcium carbonate or calcite? Two thing come to my mind loh.... if this is the case.

    Can provide me with the link where they are discussing this issue?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Bro lauts

    Ya lor.... what you are saying is also what I understand lor.

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,

    Nice Summation indeed!

    Here's mine.( I feel like we are both lawyers in a courtroom viewed by invisible viewers. Hehe)

    It amuse me that my detailed explanation in this forum seem to still irritate you and feel that my koi keeping skills is still lacking since my filtration system and my method of maintaining it is flawed in your point of view.

    Koi Keeping skills form part of this hobby. It not only involves building a pond, a filtration system, but also maintaining it. It involves water management, feed management and unknown to some the management of bacteria( the good and the bad alike). It involves also choosing the right koi, ability to grow it to the best of its potential given the limitation each hobbyist is presented whether it be real estate space, cost associated in the upkeep or all other reasons.

    There's a saying that goes, "No ponds are the same and no two hobbyist mindset are the same as well." I have seen kois reared in different systems and designs but I have the greatest respect not because one has the more expensive or high tech or largest filtration system but on the koikeeper with the greatest passion in this hobby. The love of this hobby is the reason why we share our beliefs , opinions and most importantly experiences whether it be correct or flawed so that others especially the newcomers may enjoy also the hobby like we have.. I have not seen your kois nor your pond in person as we countries apart but sharing lengthy discussion with you several times gives me the impression of your passion and love in this hobby as well.

    In my opinion, I have grown and showed healthy show kois and will continue to do so using my present system. It may not be perfect. It may not be the usual norm. It may not even appeal or if I might add irritate a few. But at the end of the day, if it gives me satisfaction( despite what others feel is an enslavement) it doesnt really matter whatever anyone would say. I presented my views, beliefs, opinion, and experiences lengthily without any intention to promote ERIC. I do not know Mr. Waddington. I do not promote Bakki. I do not know Mr. Maeda either. I do not have any intention to change the mindset of others nor put down other filtration systems nor brag that I have the superior one. I only wanted to clear up questions that had been posed and if my answers are not satisfactory to others then its up to others to make up their own mind.

    I very much like your story on how the dealer visited your premises for an hour and became impress. As a hobbyist to hear a compliment is a testament to the passion and koi keeping skill you have. Like you and others who have been in this hobby I do also have my share of compliments from dealers, others fellow hobbyist and judges of my koi keeping skills. To discuss my own story would entail another page of discussion that I am not willing to drag this thread further. I might do things differently in this hobby but at the end of the day, me and my koi hobbyist friends (called the KOIBOIS) in this hobby give the mutual respect that We deserve because we are KOI HOBBYIST with the passion to SHARE.

    Thank you.

    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-25 05:53:25 pm
  • frostbitezfrostbitez June 2013
    Posts: 109
    learning alot here :D
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro & Sis

    To Bro TomyC

    This is not my works...... these explain the "sand" they are talking about.....

    I just extract the gist out of it from the Scientific Research Journal of Biomaterials and Nanobiotechnology, 2012, 3, 413-420 413 10.4236/jbnb.2012.34041 Published Online October 2012 (http://www.SciRP.org/journal/jbnb)

    Calcium carbonate (CaCO3) occurs in the three polymorphs calcite, aragonite and vaterite.

    It is the presence of living micro-algae influencing on the precipitation of calcium carbonate crystals. Due to photosynthesis, the pH in the algae-containing organic media increased and CaCO3 crystals are precipitated.

    Living freshwater microalgae can also induce the formation of CaCO3 when they live in a suitable environment containing saturated amounts of Ca2+.

    As the algae accumulate, a “micro-environment” around the clusters is formed, where the CaCO3 is precipitated. Aragonite is precipitated in the algae-containing media with high amount of Zn whereas in the corresponding inorganic solution mainly calcite is found.

    As references precipitates from the same solutions but without algae were investigated.

    They could show that the presence of living microalgae has a great influence on the precipitation of calcium carbonate crystals. In algae-containing media without or with a low zinc amount always calcite and aragonite are formed. In organic media without zinc always calcite and aragonite are formed.

    In the corresponding medium with zinc pure aragonite crystals were built. In contrast, in the inorganic, algae-free solutions without zinc, pure calcite is precipitated. Both inorganic solutions with zinc show major calcite precipitation and weak aragonite precipitation. Thus the algae cells advance significantly the formation of aragonite, which is enhanced by the presence of zinc cations in the media.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    To Bro HDcu

    Thank you for your remarks.

    Each times I debated with you..... you stimulated me to explore and in the process I have learnt something new too......

    Yes... we have many discussions before this and I have not shown you my koi. Well....this time round..... I would like to share with you.... and also bro and sis here my current collection that I have.....

    These pics were taken end of last year from the pond.

    pic 1
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13211/936566_10200629921567050_1787432886_n.jpg

    pic 2
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13212/Koi2.jpg

    pic 3
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13213/393170_10200688217384409_734104144_n.jpg

    pic 4
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13214/601831_10200641865585643_15178225_n.jpg

    pic 5
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13215/945716_10200710407739154_1293415050_n.jpg

    pic 6
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13216/525262_10200630828909733_1929176072_n.jpg

    pic 7
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13217/229786_10200688225184604_426096126_n.jpg

    pic 8
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13218/295493_10200676935062358_550640487_n.jpg

    Cheers
  • frostbitezfrostbitez June 2013
    Posts: 109
    nice water bro harry :)
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar June 2013
    Posts: 1,763
    =D> Excellent water quality man
  • gerrygerry June 2013
    Posts: 777
    Bro @harryyew, your kindai showa (pics 6 and 8) soooooo cute la.... geram oh!! :X

    BTW, I am one of the silent readers in this thread... very informative... hehehehe
  • grinkz01grinkz01 June 2013
    Posts: 530
    that's actually what i expect..too see the practice aft3r all given theory.....in the end of the day koi hobby is about self satisfaction regardless what system they used....see the koi grow from nothing to something is the ultimate goal....beyond the sky there is another sky...nothing is perfect as our brain/knowledge is always limited though it may improve over the time & experience we had.

    ur kohaku is nice bro harry.....high hump there yet red color also good and shine.
  • grinkz01grinkz01 June 2013
    Posts: 530
    dopost
    Post edited by grinkz01 at 2013-06-26 10:12:06 pm
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,

    Thank you for sharing your nice collection.

    Btw, whats your opinion of growing jumbo kois in small ponds?
  • frostbitezfrostbitez June 2013
    Posts: 109
    dunno but u guys
    but in my small pond growing tosai from 10cm to 55cm is easy, but after it hit 60-63cm they like stop growing :(
    is anyone here have tricks or ways to grow jumbo in small pond? plz share

    han
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    10% water change daily. Over capable filter. Sinking food 3% weight spread over 8-14 periods a day. Strong current.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-27 01:57:47 am
  • lautslauts June 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    bro Harry,

    Showing off your kois and photography skills as well (Y) They look like some oil painting esp the 7 and 8, very sui (Y)
    Very nice showas and kohaku esp pict5 and 7 .

    ts
  • frostbitezfrostbitez June 2013
    Posts: 109
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2013-06-27 05:42:13 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good morning Bro and Sis

    Thank you all for the feedback. hehehe......

    Cheers
  • andysiaandysia July 2013
    Posts: 56
    Pic 5 looks like 2 kois performing "synchronized swimming" ... =D>

    Great kois you have, bro!

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