Pond Layout
  • chuppymarleychuppymarley June 2013
    Posts: 8
    Hi all,
    Newbie from Sarawak here. Had visited this forum frequently, and learn a lots from sifu2 here, great Koi knowledge and learning resources.
    Going to construct my new pond soon, foresee newbie like me likely to make a mistake when build my very 1st pond, and don't want to be regret later, here I would like to attach my propose pond layout and hope sifu2 here can give me some of your valuable advice on this.
    Plan to use one Tsurumi 40PU2.15S, is it enough for proper turnover?
    And shall i need under water jet return?
    Thanks in advance.

    Best regards,
    Kiong
  • ray2kray2k June 2013
    Posts: 96
    1. Your dry chamber may be a little cramped for the number of pipes you have.

    2. If possible, make the BD pipes bigger. Say 6 inch. If not, it's ok.
  • chuppymarleychuppymarley June 2013
    Posts: 8
    Hi sifu ray2k,
    Morning.
    Noted. Will take ur words and adjust the dry chamber to 3.5 X 1 feet. Will consider to increase BD to 6 inch too.
    Need advice on the surface skimmer piping size, is it ok to go with 2 inch pipe?
    Thanks.
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar June 2013
    Posts: 1,763
    Welcome to the forum bro.

    Some newbie suggestion
    Based on your drawing, ur pond should b 10 ton capacity. What's the pump capacity (ton/hour)?
    The bottom drain and skimmer is too far away from filter chamber which is not advisable. Try to have both near to the wall of chamber 1&2. U can have return on opposite site of filter (the current BD and skimmer location). Try to have straight flow, and no dead spot . :)
  • weihanweihan June 2013
    Posts: 318
    Good suggestion Bro TK ;-)
  • chuppymarleychuppymarley June 2013
    Posts: 8
    Thanks bro Bthineshkumar for your suggestion.
    Will relocated the BD and skimmer near to chamber 1 and 2.
    The pump I plan to use tsurumi 40pu2.15s which is 190 litre per min. With new bd and skimmer layout, the return will be at opposite end of pond, means total distance from return chamber to bakki will be approximately 19 feet. Does this pump sufficient to perform the proper turnover by consider the efficiency loss? Do I need the bigger pump?

    Regards,
    Kiong
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar June 2013
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro Kiong,
    Not enough bro. For small pond, its suggested to have 2x turnover per hour. You can have this pump for direct return to pond with underwater return. Another separate pump feed to bakki and gravity feed to pond top return.
  • chuppymarleychuppymarley June 2013
    Posts: 8
    Hi sifus,
    Noted. Will add in another pump as per advise.
    Anyway, what is the ideal height for underwater return outlet and ideal outlet piping size? Any precaution points that I need to consider?
    Sorry if I'm asking too much.. :)
  • mangkellmangkell June 2013
    Posts: 1,221
    <blockquote rel="ray2k">1. Your dry chamber may be a little cramped for the number of pipes you have.

    2. If possible, make the BD pipes bigger. Say 6 inch. If not, it's ok.</blockquote>

    For a 10MT of water, with a 20MT/hour total pump, one BD with 4" is enough. The water level different between pond & 1st SC is 1inches only.

    Making 2nos 4" BD will make a slower flows inside BD & build up sediment over time...

    6" BD for 50MT/hour total pump up...

    Simple water return above water level with pipe facing down same size as yr pump outlet is good for a long pond like a river.

    Tq ;-)
    Mickeyko Ducati-Kujamon Chagreemon Brabus#Sexy-Robust
  • ray2kray2k June 2013
    Posts: 96
    I like big pipes for bottom drains for two reasons:
    Less chance for clogging in the long run and
    it is easier to clear blockages.

    For piping, the simplest most direct route is best.

    One more tip. When talking to the contractor, consider how deep you want the water, not how deep you want the pond.

    I made the mistake with my old pond to say 3ft deep pond and the contractor built that. But the actual water depth was only about 2.5 feet. What I wanted was water depth of 3ft.

    So, decide the water depth and then design and build the pond to achieve that.
  • JamesJames June 2013
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Raymond, u din meet me as pond contractor la... :-)) :-)) Sure no such problem.. 8-)
  • ray2kray2k June 2013
    Posts: 96
    Bro James, As a pond contractor you are fine.

    But I worry about the kind of fish you recommend me to put in the pond.

    My wallet sure go missing for a few years and I'll be eating ping pong biscuits to pay for the fish! :-)) :-))
  • chuppymarleychuppymarley June 2013
    Posts: 8
    Thanks so much to the valuable input from sifu sifu here.
    My luck to post here before proceed to pond construction, if no sure will regret as end up with improper pond design.. :)
    Bro TK, u have a very nice pond (Y) (Y)
    Bro Raymond, agreed with u that it is too easy for our wallet to go missing as the poison keep increasing.. :-? B4 tis I thing the fgt is good enough, but after a while I want sumthing bigger & better so wanna to build proper concrete pond for keep more kois, as it is juz too hard for me to ignore the beauty of koi when saw them swim freely in a big pond.. @-)
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good afternoon Bro Chuppymarley

    My estimate of your current pond volume turnover is around every 1.5hr after deducting all the estimated head losses. Your pump return flowrate will be around 80liter/min. Whether this is acceptable....it all depends on how many koi you intent to keep and the size you wish they will growth to.

    Your filtration detention time is around 40min from my calculation. IMO this is not an ideal detention time. A time of around 10 to 15min I think is reasonably good to have.

    May I know why you incorporate the bakki thing in your conventional system?

    Cheers


  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    On the bottom drain arrangement, I recommend it to be equal space along the centre line on longer side of your pond measurement. It self cleans the bottom bed ngam.

    Skimmer pipe I would recommend you to have 2 nos of the chosen size but beside your intake chambers.

    The brushes you are planing are hopeless and is considered a primitive method. It won't work. It is an illusion only. Plan your settling chamber and the brushes chamber as one unit with proper settling properties in it. So that you no need to cuci the pond frequently.


  • ray2kray2k June 2013
    Posts: 96
    <blockquote rel="chuppymarley">
    B4 tis I thing the fgt is good enough, but after a while I want sumthing bigger & better so wanna to build proper concrete pond for keep more kois, as it is juz too hard for me to ignore the beauty of koi when saw them swim freely in a big pond.. @-) </blockquote>

    So you think this tiny 10t pond is enough? ;-)

    If you can, go for the biggest baddest pond you can afford. Build under the house if necessary or buy the house next door. I wish I could find my long lost wallet. :-))
  • chuppymarleychuppymarley June 2013
    Posts: 8
    Hi Harry,
    Thanks for the pro advice.
    As per your suggection, I had revised and attached the layout here.
    Combined 2 mechanical chamber into one, relocated the bottom drain and skimmer next to filter chamber, and the above water return at the other end of pond.
    About the filtration retention time I really have no idea on this. If I double up the pump capacity is it ok?
    Can sifu advise how to design a proper setting chamber? [-O< .. it is too complicated for noob like me..
    As for bakki thing actually I had read a lot benefit bout it fron KA here, and biological filter will never be too much for our system and at the same time can enrich the DO and bring down water temp..correct me if I'm wrong.

    Bro Raymond, 10t consider a bonzai pond if compare to sifu2 here. Juz afraid if I make it bigger I will end up even not afford to buy myself a ping ping biscuits.. #-O

    Regards,
    Kiong
  • chuppymarleychuppymarley June 2013
    Posts: 8
    Sorry, forgot the attachment..
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Make sure your bottom drain can allow leaves to go through.
    Make sure you clean the mechanical and settling chamber everyday.
    For that one-directional flow to work, you will need STRONG pump returns pointing down wards in the water at an angle.
    For the skimmer to work, you need enough power in the working pumps, or have separate pumps hooked up to the skimmers.

    I don't know why you want J-mats plus Bakki shower. Choose one. They are suppose to do the same thing. Showers need to be located at a cool location to work well. Else you are just adding heat to the pond. Required flow rate could be different as well.

    Clean the bio chambers every week. Meaning the bottom of the chamber needs to be sparkling clean.

    For the brush chamber to work well, it needs to be tethered in a box, so all water has to flow through the brushes.

    For a pond filtration to work well, you must consider the maintenance requirements as well. Make sure you understand how it works, and can spend the time, and money (water) cleaning it.

    Have a look at HDCU's pond: http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/1534/hdcu-new-pond-build/p1
    Also the ERIC filtration: http://www.ericpondfilters.com
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-11 06:32:39 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro chuppymarley

    Sorry bro… bad written descriptions from my end. The BD pipes not suppose to arrange as per your new attachment.Why only one nos 4" BD pipe? Two 6" BD pipe better.

    1st…. IMHO, I don’t think for your current pond length and width you can succeed to mimic the river flow condition. It defies the law of hydraulic. Not forgetting the current pump capacity you have considered. From your baki trays back to the pond you basically is gravity feeding it back…..meaning not much head to push the water column.

    On the settling & mechanical chamber, I personally think it is a good size but you need to design so that the particles will settle as much as possible within your given constraints so that no need to cuci every week or so. I can post some diagrams for your consideration but please tell me how you attached the jpg file to the thread. I forgot how to do it already.

    In your 1st post in this thread, you asked about water jet return. I personally think this is a very good consideration. You should plan for multiple returns. Good exercise for the koi.

    On the bakki thing…. Ask yourself this question. If the Jmats design is adequate and ngam already what will the bakki thing going to treat? If nothing what will happen to it? Hehehe……

    To plan for two units of pumps, is also a very good consideration. Plan them on the opposite routes and stagger the pipe entries strategically. In simple term if 2 units, then turnover is 0.75hr and detention time half. Cantik bro.

    cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Don't laugh..... hehehe.... learning new software.

    A proposal for your consideration:

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13117/koi pond 1.jpg

    Tube settlers

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13118/1.jpg

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13119/2.jpg

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13120/3.jpg

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13121/4.jpg

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13122/5.jpg

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13123/6.jpg

  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    actual pics of the tube settlers chamber.....

    pic1, the Jmat place directly above the tube settlers.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13124/IMG_0562.JPG.jpg

    pic 2, Jmat inspection,

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13125/IMG_0566.JPG.jpg

    pic 3, a top view of how the tube settlers will look like from the top.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13126/IMG_0567.JPG.jpg

    To construct the tube settlers, I use 50mm diameter pvc pipe, thinest class you can get. I glue them together in row for ease of handling and inclined at 60 degree.

    Diagram below

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13127/Tube Settlers.JPG.jpg

    I will skip the math behind the design....

    Hope this is of help to you.

    Cheers


  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    The tube settlers will be a pain to clean.
  • mangkellmangkell June 2013
    Posts: 1,221
    Bro @harryyew,

    Nice diagram... What software are U using? :/
    Mickeyko Ducati-Kujamon Chagreemon Brabus#Sexy-Robust
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good morning Bro TomyC

    For my mechanical chamber I have 16 rows. I cleaned my tube settlers by removing them out row by row and hose them down and the whole chamber about 3 to 4 months once. However, I have an automatic flushing system that flushes the chamber base dirt on a daily basis for 20 sec. It will takes me around 2 hrs if I have to remove it all out and reinsert it back. sometimes I just use my pond vacuum to clean it without removing and it takes around an hour. They are very effective in settling fines for small footprint primarily chamber.

    Then.... the rest of the bio chambers only need to clean once every 6 months on a stagger basis. Cleaning the Jmat will take half a day. Considering the frequency of cleaning required, I am quite happy.

    To Bro mangkel

    hehehe.... the 1st one I pakai autodesk sketchbook pro drawing on a wacom itunos board. Just open up and try. Tak tahu pakai. learning and play with it. Hopefully I will progress in 3 months times and the line don't look like ular. hahahaha....

    The 2nd set, I use google sketch up to draw. (This sketch up can be download and try, easy to use.

    The last diagram, I pakai autocad.

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Re: harryyew.

    WOW. You commit a lot of time to keep your pond clean, though it's often not clean.
    What do you think of the ERIC system that requires about 5mins cleaning every couple of days, and takes up a much smaller physical footprint?

  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good Evening Bro TomyC

    hehehe......

    May I know how long and the frequency you take to clean your system?

    hmm... the Eric system. Are you using it?

    The embedded video you have attached to depict its performance is not a good representation of its performance lah. The video was taken only 10 days after the filter system had been installed. Somemore....what the video is trying to impress is only he have to take 3mins to pull and insert the small standpipe. 10 days and it needs to be cleaned. If we add the time he has to uncover and and recover the plank or concrete or plastic covers my guesstimate it will easily take 30mins. Mine was only cleaned when it was 3 months old from the date it was put into operation and that is for the 1st chamber. The biological chambers were 6 months later. At its infant stage there is really nothing to clean.

    To me....To determine whether the mechanical chamber performance is good or not is when you have jumbo kois in it and feeding kau kau and you are able to stick to the original maintenance schedule.

    My views on the Eric system has been discussed in one of HDCu's thread when he put up for discussion in this forum. I am not sure whether HDCu is still active in the forum......his feedback will be valuable to provide us with an indication of the endless river concept performance especially after his system has been put to test for say 6 to 8 months. he is fond of feeding kau kay. Let's hope he can participate in the discussion too.

    BTW may i know your view on this Eric system that promotes the endless river concept?

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    No, I'm not using it, though I'm seriously considering it.

    The assumption about the cover/plank is wrong. There's a lid that can be removed. It takes as long as you take to remove a cap from your head.

    ERIC makes sense to me. You see the whole filtration system, and you can easily keep it clean with very little water loss.

    HDCU's system is designed with similar philosophy of regular maintenance. That's almost everyday. Especially since he feeds KAU.
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi TomyC and harryyew,

    Its now been at least nine months since my improvised eric system with bakki had been running. based on my experience, there are advantages and disadvantages with my system:

    In terms of cleaning, I do have both modules flush out everyday. Flushing takes just less than three minutes. It will remove seventy five percent of waste but just thirty percent of algae trapped in brush. If I want to thoroughly clean the brushes( small algae likes to stick there), I would need to powerspray it for an additional five to seven more minutes. The Japanese matts are left for two weeks before i raise them up and power spray the little dirt that gets trap in the bottom . All the matts have remained like new and not brown. This will take me around ten to fiifteen minutes to clean each module.

    I have used both updown and eric system and for me the eric system is a much faster maturing filter and seem to be able to take in more waste thrown at it given the smaller space it uses.
    Presently, I have 14 kois with average size from 55 to 70 cm in this 20 ton pond. I only change the amount of water base on tds reading which is presently at 82 to 85( incoming city water is 70). I estimate i change thru continuous drip around just 1.5tons of water a day. Water had been vert clear since day 1.

    i do have changed strategy and am now feeding more quality food( 450grams) of Fd feeds instead of more quantity. I found out that less but better quality is superior and more cost effective that more but poorer quality feeds.

    I have to mention that my bakki uses also 80 liters of glass sintered media(siporax) as such it does also help in maintaining the lower tds reading.
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="HDCu">

    If I want to thoroughly clean the brushes( small algae likes to stick there), I would need to powerspray it for an additional five to seven more minutes. The Japanese matts are left for two weeks before i raise them up and power spray the little dirt that gets trap in the bottom . All the matts have remained like new and not brown. This will take me around ten to fiifteen minutes to clean each module.
    </blockquote>
    You don't exactly have an ERIC system that allows water to optimally flush out of the bio and mechanical sections, thus will require extra cleaning of these two areas. The 90 degree bends reduce the water pressure of the flush I think.

    You do have tethered brush boxes, and horizontal flow, which are optimal ways to filter.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-13 11:03:47 am
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good afternoon Bro HDCu

    Thank you for the feedback.
    Not bad.... 10 to 15 mins cleaning per module.
    So....if I remember correctly on your filtration modules, you have 16 modules. so roughly it will take 160mins to clean on a biweekly basis.

    So finally did you introduced the bonsai plants? hehehe.....

    May I know your overall average growth rate per koi over the this period?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro TomyC

    May i know what is your plan pond volume you are going to built, number of kois and average size per koi you intent to introduce into your new pond and how many modules of this Erick system you will connect it up?

    Are you planning to lay it out similar to the video you have share with us? I mean the filtration side with just the long plastic cover.

    I am curious..... do you really believe that using that ERIC system.... on a daily 3 mins pull and push back will suffice to get it clean in your filtration system?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro harryyew,
    Bro TomyC,

    You are correct that my modified eric system is not exactly the same as the original but the principle of horizontal flow with heavy aeration and flushing out botg mechanucal and bio at same time is the same. I dont think the bend lessen the flush. Its just that i dont flush the whole water but just half thereby lesser pressure. If i flush the whole it will be four tons a day. Also in the mewer improved newer Eric, the mats are elevated by a few millimeter to let the settlement at the bottom to flush faster. I will adapt this next also.

    When i say module i meant one set which includes one pump, 12 brushes and five sets of japanese mats arranged vertically with 10mm spacers. I only have two modules and each modules that needs total cleaning would take me a minute open all the cover, a minute to flush all the water, five minute to clean the brushes, 5 minutes to remove the mats, five minutes to jet spray the chambers and around seven to ten minutes to put back everything.

    Growth rate i believe is good enough for me and comparable to other hobbyists wid much bigger ponds. I have several nisais now at 62 to size 65 cm from jumbo tosai size of 35 to 40cm.

    Yes i have placed three bonsai to complement the pond. I am at present testing a new climate control system to cool the water faster without the chiller.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-13 11:10:28 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Like that mean 20 mins per module. So for 2 modules it took you approximately 40 mins on a bi-weekly basis.

    In a year you will spend approximately 682 hours cleaning your system....Correct?

    Assuming the Eric system is only 5 mins daily for the box brushes, the biological filters side appear to be included..... therefore in a year one will only spend 30 hours. That is only 5% of your time. Any comment on this?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    In your new setup.... may I know what are yours current readings for:

    1) Free Ammonia
    2) Free Nitrites
    3) Nitrates
    4) Phosphorous
    5) water temperature

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Sorry Bro.... forget to include:

    6) Conductivity = In Sp Conductance reading

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro harryyew,

    There is no doubt that my system still takes a few hours in total a year but I believe there is no perfect system. My system still needs some manpower, (maidpowier actuallt most of the time). For For a smaller allowable space with cheaper energy in consideration, Eric system would be best imho. Vortex would need bigger spaces while i dont believe in be ad filters setups as these take months to mature and impossible to totally clean inside without opening it. Conventional updown filters has their own disadvantages based on my experience.

    Honestly, i dont check much the water parameters much except the tds. Last time i checked ammonia, nitrite almost nil, nitrate around 10 to 15. I dont check phosphate. Temp reading now is at 27.2c. From nov to feb, temp was 24 to 25. ph around 7.2-7.4. For some reason which i dont understand yet , i have the lowest tds reading among hobbyist here. Many are unable to keep it below 110 tds.
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="harryyew">Good evening Bro TomyC

    May i know what is your plan pond volume you are going to built, number of kois and average size per koi you intent to introduce into your new pond and how many modules of this Erick system you will connect it up?

    Are you planning to lay it out similar to the video you have share with us? I mean the filtration side with just the long plastic cover.

    I am curious..... do you really believe that using that ERIC system.... on a daily 3 mins pull and push back will suffice to get it clean in your filtration system?

    Cheers</blockquote>

    You can read some users' comments on the ERIC cleaning here: http://www.themtherekoyas.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3065

    If the user is not happy with some of the dirt left behind, then a spray hose quickly is all that's needed. The beauty is that the box is small, so there are only so little you need to clean.

    Also, there's minimal water loss each flush, so the fishes hardly notice the difference. Whereby in old-school concrete pond filtration, there's so much water loss, and wasted water to clean them down. You stress the fishes with the time the filter is off, plus the large water changes.

    HDCU's system incorporates a lot of the good concepts to fit his pond use.

    For an ERIC system, it goes with a 1 bottom drain, to 1 filter, to 1 pump philosophy. So the number of ERIC boxes depends on your number of drains, and the pond volume as well.
    http://www.ericpondfilters.com
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro HDCu

    Thanks for the feedback.

    The lower TDS you are having is due to your frequent water change regime and the bigger quantity of bio filters you are having. My TDS value is low too with my present cleaning schedule.

    If there is an opportunity, please take reading for Nitrate, Phosphorous and conductivity In Sp Conductance reading. I am not sure you can do a redox reading before and after each clean. I like to study your system performance.

    May I know eventually how many air pumps and capacity you employed?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro TomyC

    I have read the links you have provided.

    Let's us assume you are planning for a 20 ton pond. Therefore you will employ 2 units of Eric Four system. From the reads I would say it will take approximately 10 mins each (assuming you will hose it down as well and will not rely on the in rush water flush to be able to clean to expectation). I personally think this scenario is real in our tropical climate unless otherwise you are in the same region as the manufacturer. So everyday.... you will spend approximately 20 mins.

    Now for 365 days............ you will spend 122 hours.

    each Eric Four system will throw 0.5m3 of water on a daily basis. Therefore in a year you throw 364m3.

    My system which has not yet being commercialise but maybe will in the near future required the following cleaning:

    Every 3 months clean one time mechanical chamber for 2 hours that included opening 6 pieces of planks. So a year will spend 4x2= 8 hours.

    The little pieces of Jmat I place over the tube settlers..... say I clean once a month and it take me 15mins each time. That would work out to a total of extra 2 hours a year.

    Biological filtration = 2 chambers, 6 months once. So total time equal 4 times. Say I need exercise I throw in 2 extra time making it to 6 times and each time I spend 2 hours. That calculate to 6x2=12hours.

    Total times spend= 12 + 8 + 2 = 22 hours. hehehe....

    If you are relying on the video on how it is covered. Take a closer look. The underground chamber has a timber walling around the top of the brickwork. Do you think the timber waling is there to give aesthetic value? Unlikely right? So some timber planks cover or the like must be the provision. If we take that into consideration.... we might just end up worst than HDCu time spent.

    Now if we continue to support that the units no need to be covered and safety is not a concern at all as a blind will only fall into the pit in the dark. Fine.

    What about when the unit are cover with the big plastic cover and you have guests invited to your house. Tell me seriously..... do you think the 2 units look like coffins in your garden or not?

    Now... it still make sense to you? hehehe......

    Cheers

  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    I believe the cleaner you keep the filter without killing the good bacteria, the better.
    It's also easier to spend short amounts of time frequently, than to devote long hours periodically.
    It's also better to have a regular change of water over time through a trickle. Better growth, cleaner water.

    I believe the underground chamber you are referring to was a result of a previous filter installation, and was utilised so the owner could use the water to irrigate his garden. If the ERIC is above ground, it could be piped directly to drain. If it's higher than drain level, then a flushing chamber/sump is required.

    Aesthetically, it could be beautified or hidden.
    This is an installation in Penang: http://www.ericpondfilters.com/2011-koi-pond-from-start-to-finish/

    There are loads of information on the website.

    It makes sense to me to flush the toilet after every use.
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro harryyew,

    Personally, I dont really believe in ORP or taking redox nor the need to get phospate readings. My nitrates are just around 15ppm. Mudponds in Japan does not have high orp readings and there are no breeders that would recommend the use of ozonators. Most breeders dont even measure parameters in their holding ponds but instead they just flush all their chambers everyday and replace with new water. Although, I do suspect my redox is higher than average because of the amount of air pumped into the pond (100Lpm + 60Lpm+ 60Lpm using japanese air hose) and into filter( four units of 60lpm airpumps using also japanese air hose). The high aeration along with bakki contribute in separating the DOC in the filter which are then flush out everyday.

    Eric concept is based on the belief of "you need to flush the whole toilet (both mechanical and bio) principle for hygeinic purposes". Rotary drum concept takes the toilet principle on flushing(mechanical only) more times per day.

    If you say you are just cleaning in far longer intervals(just every three months),you are applying the concept of "longer settlement of waste in the mechanical chamber". This concept before uses very long settlement , some with multiple brushes to collect lots of waste to prevent waste from entering the bio chamber thereby preserving the "pristine condition of the mats". Cleaning the mechanical chamber of this type took a long time and thus most hobbyist preferered cleaning only occassionally, some by months. I know of a serious hobbyist who has a 200ton pond with just around thirty high grade expensive kois that employ such filter concept. In his very clear pond, all his kois get very big and massive fast, cleans the mechanical only and the biomats rarely and just change around 4 percent of water a month. The problem is that his kois gets to be treated for all sorts of problem most of the time ranging from parking, swimbladder, bacterial infection, etc. This despite all the water parameter readings are constantly very good. He will be renovating his pond by reducing it to 100 tons, changing the long settlement mechanical filter to multiple vortexes that can be flush everday with more water changes.

    I am not particular familiar with your tube pvc tube settlement chamber but I think it is particularly very good in settling waste before it goes thru the bio chamber. I am though familiar with the use of static kaldness or bioballs in the mechanical which also serve a very good way to trap and settle the waste before it enters the biochamber. My problem here is that the longer you keep the waste in the mechanical stage, the more risk you take. For one, more waste accumulated would mean more bacteria(both good and bad) that can multiple as bacteria feeds on more waste trapped. More bacteria means more acids are formed thereby the risk of ph crash is greater especially if you use already soft water or if there is a heavy downpour of acid rain. You can employ baking soda or clay if necessary but then again you change the PH sometimes dramatically which can stress some kois. You can employ lots of oyster shell as well to prevent a ph crash. In my setup, there is no need to do all this as the constant water trickle and constant flush to remove most waste in both mechanical and bio checks the population growth of bacteria ensuring constant Ph rain or shine.

    Another scenario is that not as not all ponds are created equally, there can be other things like dead frogs or toads, bird poo, fallen leaves or released fish eggs, etc. can get trapped in the mechanical stage. All these can increase the bioload of the filter. I cannot imagine a dead decomposing frog or koi eggs trapped in the mechanical stage of the filter decomposing for weeks without knowing it yet. To me, everyday inspection of both the mechanical and biological filter gives me the best peace of mind in ensuring the health and wellness of my pet kois. If that entails more total manhours spent and more water change needed, then that's the sacrifice I have to do in this hobby.




    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-15 10:04:35 am
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good Evening Bro TomyC

    Quote
    I believe the cleaner you keep the filter without killing the good bacteria, the better.

    Comment
    hehe..... I am not against cleaning the filter.....but everyday throw away 0.5 water with good bateria lah. Not logic lah. This is a waste. he is throwing 2m3 of water a day bro. Are you a malaysian or singaporean, may i know?

    Quote
    It's also easier to spend short amounts of time frequently, than to devote long hours periodically.

    Comment
    Subjective point of view. It is the total time spend that is relevant. Take your car for eg. You change your engine oil at schedule interval or daily? If you take into account the preparation and the daily routine and the time spent.... one is basically enslave to the filter already. What happen when there are urgent matter and/or outstations visit or oversea holiday. Maid also take along. If one day don't clean, I think it will choke up the brush chamber. How? hehehe.....

    Quote
    It's also better to have a regular change of water over time through a trickle. Better growth, cleaner water.

    Comment
    Dilution!!! Depending on how much is being trickle loh it may and may not necessary be better. Am I right the purpose is to dilute the ambient pollutant in the water? It is a waste IMO but it does give us an illusion that fresh water has been replenished on a daily basis.

    Quote
    I believe the underground chamber you are referring to was a result of a previous filter installation, and was utilised so the owner could use the water to irrigate his garden. If the ERIC is above ground, it could be piped directly to drain. If it's higher than drain level, then a flushing chamber/sump is required.

    Comment
    If you look at the Penang setup..... it is the same bro. If it is above ground it will have more head loss and its efficacy will be compromise as per specification and the outlook of the filters will be like the pic in penang when it is deliver and place at grade. It looks horrible and not auspicious lah. Some more dark black colour...... Susah to telan.

    Thanks for sharing the Penang setup. I have a good look at it. I would comments the following:

    1) The 4 units take up too much space and it is lay exposed. Now the pics confirm when it is covered up, it does look like a coffin. bad feng shui lay.

    2) Look at the amount of air pumps required for that miserable small box. It is introducing unnecessary head into the system. The Air pumps IMO have no aesthetic value at all. Rest assure it will create more ambient noise. It is liken to a factory.

    3) Now...when these 4 units are running...... bro...... the noise generated from the pumps will be worst than in a factory environment. Not sure... maybe the waterfall sound also has been significantly diluted.

    4) Don't take a cursory look at the filtration area. I see it is unsightly with so many pipework and look like a make shift temporary quarantine area. Lucky the owner did some nice stoneworks to his pond area else I don't know what to say.

    5) The water condition also don't impressive.

    6) The system has a slow turnover rate, something like 2.5hr. It will not be suitable for higher fish load bro. The ambient pollutants in the pond will affect the fishes health lah. May be he will advise owner to introduce either small koi of small quantity or 1 jumbo koi for every 2m3 of pond volume to make sure the ambient pollutants will not be a contributing factor to the health of the fish.

    7) The pond and its inhabitants area need to be beautified...... I will agree...... but to spend money to beautify the filtration already just to shield the filtration I think it is rather silly.

    8) I must say the name chosen very the nice. Endless river flow...... But bro..... how come the pond he don't advise the owner to do an endless river flow too? is it not contradictory what has been promoted?

    9) This type of system only suitable for those people got four seasons lah whereby after approximately 9 months they need to transport their koi to indoor and the unit can fit indoor.

    10) Spare part replacement also problem. Touch little bit also need to import and wait.... else need to have spare. Let see whether his tank can withstand UV light or not and our weather condition.

    BTW, do you know the Penang owner?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening bro HDCu

    Thanks again for the feedback. Appreciated.

    We are all manipulating and conditioning the water quality. We believe our proposal under consideration will generate the ideal conditions to meet our very original objectives to have a healthy koi with all the attributes to go with it.

    I ask for those readings..... purely is to review if with your current method it will generate to what type of equivalent water condition best match to the natural condition.

    bro....Mudponds has high TDS right? But you are monitoring and controlling your TDS like there is no tomorrow. You must have your set of reasons. I personally don't think that is rubbish and in fact IMO there is relevance to the koi keeping. We have discussed this before in your previous thread. Since now you have it running for 9 months, it will be good we have some data to check what we have claimed earlier has an ounce of truth in it.

    Every time I cleaned and take redox reading.... I will find the redoc value drop. Not small drop but big drop.

    Bro.... Eric system is no rocket science. It is not something new. It is presented to be a new concept because it has been market that way lah and it basically challenge the original preconception of filtration. There is nothing to be endless for a short basin. It turns laminar flow to turbulent flow so that particulates will not adhere to the mat (which is harder to clean than the blue mat if left unattended) and when the particulates collide with each other it will form a bigger mass and will settle to the bottom. Just like the tube settler concept.

    When I started with my pond, i did not paid much attention to the koi shit and upon realising its characteristics... I know I will be be enslaved to the pond and come up with the idea of introducing the tube settler to best for my given chamber size against the plate settler. The aim is to achieve 90 to 95% of settleable solids, 40 to 60% of the total suspended solids, and 25 to 35% of biological oxygen demand (BOD). I given another opportunity i will built another type of settling chamber.

    When the koi are 50cm... I have nothing to clean. Now my kois are sansai jumbo (male) and super jumbo size (female) and I can see my original design consideration is approaching the design parameters. I don't feed aggressive. Two meals only. Recently my koi dealer pay me a visit and were surprise with the body conformation and growth I have achieved. He looks at it in disbelieve for such a small pond and my cleaning regime that I practice I can achieve this type of result. Touch wood for 1.5 years I have no problem with the koi health except there is one that according to my koi dealer has eggs. He said that koi is a future koi. To me... the same lah.....a koi. He offers to mobilise his big tank or to transport the koi to his place to settle the eggs for me FOC some more. So.... he is not doing it for commercial reason. I am not sure whether it is a must or the koi might run into risk of bending her tail or something else. Your view please.

    How on earth frogs and bird shit can get inside the chambers. It is cover right? Mine don't even have mosquitoes. hehehe..... really brother not pulling your legs.

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Mudponds in Niigata have very low tds and very soft water. This has been proven many times by Mike Snaden in various readings he performed and by our dealer.

    You are correct though that the ERIC system is not new but the concept has been applied and tested before in massive waste water biological plants that employ horizontal flow in riverlike setting, massive aerations are added to promote nitrosomas and nitrobacter to remove ammonia and nitrites and improve the BOD and separate the DOC and then passed to a nonaerated river section where nitrates in the water are removed by nitrate eating bacteria which are seeded in that area.

    Believe it or not, there are some ponds that are designed near a big garden where frogs and birds and leaves will sometimes drop by the pond. I dont have that problem but I have seen a few dead lizards and cockroaches and lots of small snails in my filter once in a while and once a bunch of koi eggs trapped in the brushes. My filter cover has gaps by design to outgas carbon dioxide release by bacteria and to not increase the temperature inside the filter chamber.

    With regards to eggs, I believe for the koi to continually grow the eggs needs to be released or absorbed by the koi itself through proper fasting. I practice fasting for a month, every January, to reduce the eggs of the kois and slim most of the kois.

    Feeding for me is something im still trying to understand. I do believe in FCR (food conversion ratio) or FCE(food conversion efficiency). FCR or FCE is the measure of an animal's efficiency in converting feed mass into increased body mass. Factors that affect FCR are the type or quality of feeds, water temperature, the use of some good bacteria that helps digestion, water quality, genetics and bloodline. There is a diminishing return or lowering of FCR as you increase the quantity of your feed as per my observation.

    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-16 01:10:02 am
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    re: Harry

    You have incredibly valuable knowledge and passion in this hobby. I wish I have the technical expertise and experience you have to calculate the many variables involved in pond building and koi keeping.

    Just to correct a few misconception regarding the ERIC.
    Even if there's no daily dump, the brushes will still allow water through, so the filter won't be choked.

    Endless river flow is what the ERIC is trying to achieve. Dirty water exits, new water replenishes, every single second. That's the concept.

    The ERIC was conceptualised because Peter Waddington was puzzled as to why Koi in Japan didn't have the '3 downers', but keepers that have ponds more than 3 years old sometimes do. So it was found that Japan koi dealers' indoor ponds are cleaned most of the year. So the ERIC is trying to introduce a similar concept for koi keepers. Whereby the filtration is kept as clean as possible most of the time. http://koikichi.com/the-three-big-downers/
    So based on your system, and occasional maintenance if you can keep your fishes healthy for another 3 years, it would certainly prove that you have a good filtration system. Of course, one must be willing to put in the hard work to clean systems like yours when the time comes.

    The air pumps are to disrupt the water flow, so that the mats maximise its use, and also to provide aeration for the good bacteria and the fishes.

    It seems you are bothered greatly by the aesthetics. I believe your filtration is underground? The ERIC can be underground too. What colour would you recommend for the box?

    The clearing of visible pollutants are dependent on the BD design, placement, flow, and the skimmers. If these are done well, pollutants are taken care of. Biowise, the ERIC is highly efficient for its volume.

    The beauty of the ERIC is that the supplied parts would last a lifetime. It's just custom E-Mats (denser J-mats), and brushes.

    The horizontal flow concept is indeed not new. It was introduced more than a decade ago in concrete form.


    I'm interested to see actual pics of your settler system and cleaning of it. Please share when you can.

    With your dedication and intellect, if you spend some time understand how the ERIC work, I'm sure you can incorporate some concepts and practices into your filtration design to improve it.
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro HDCu and TomyC

    To Bro HDCu

    You sure those eggs you found at the brushes areas are not frogs eggs ar. Hahaha…. Smelly or not 1st.

    Bro….nitrifying bacteria must use inorganic salts as an energy source and generally cannot utilize organic materials. They oxidize ammonia and nitrites for their energy needs and fix inorganic carbon dioxide (CO2) to fulfill their carbon requirements. If you release all your CO2 just like that via the strategic gaps provision…… the nitrifying bacterial energy production is put to waste lah (So the theory of Calvin cycle is rubbish… hehehe) and are you telling me that you preserve their energy production for growth and reproduction mainly? Now….. if that is true then your lot of nitrifying bacteria will have very high reproductive rate……

    Are you using this technique to out numbers the heterotrophic bacteria?

    Ok… bro… the koi growth very the good. I am not aware of the fasting method but was informed that I need to place her in a tank with fresh water or get the males to chase until she releases it naturally. No experience in this, will the koi get injured in this type of situation? Please share your thought with me.


    To Bro TomyC

    TQ for having high regard for me.

    Quote:
    Even if there's no daily dump, the brushes will still allow water through, so the filter won't be choked.

    Comment:
    If you examine the designed brushes box he has made. Did you notice there are two round holes provided at the top of the box. Tell me…. What are those holes for? To release trapped air bubbles or in case choke for overflow?

    The brushes are staggered tight packed. 90% to 95% solid separation is possible. That come with an expense of reducing the flowrate bro …… and the 2.5hr turnover proposal slowly come into the pic. Hehehe…. Total suspend solids will still pass thru easily and reintroduced back to the pond easily 80%.

    You will recall…. He likes to stress that for his system to work as per his design… one must follow his rules strictly. In other words not flexible and forgiving!!!

    Quote
    Endless river flow is what the ERIC is trying to achieve. Dirty water exits, new water replenishes, every single second. That's the concept.

    Comment:
    Personally I think he came up with the theme of endless river by chance…. When he repacked his higher density mats and realizes the water flow is affected significantly and there is a need for the longkang to be introduced in between the mats and the gaps does look like a river if you are viewing along the gaps provided. Hehehe…. While he is at the river think….. he knows and I knows…. In an open channel there are water tracking and he rides on it to support further the wonder he has conceptualized. If you count the number of longkang he has introduced into the system his column of water track more than those module we have created by introducing holes ( Holes that have been calculated to maintain continuity of flow when the mat are occupied by slime matrix.

    We all know…. Generally nitrobacteraceae cannot form spores and they have complex cell wall that is surrounded by slime matrix and are non motile and must colonize a surface and their secreted sticky slime matrix are used to attach themselves to the mats.

    0.5m3 of pond water dump away on a daily basis for a 10m3 pond volume. That is 10% water change on a daily basis. I question whether that is good for water stability. So…. Everyday also need to throw in sodium bisulfate, or sodium metabisulfite and these chemical when introduce on a daily basis has its drawbacks and must be manage too. Ok… Like me….in my present system that have both granular activated carbon and UV light not much problem. So… what I want to say is… in the beginning it was simple but when endless river is promoted it makes the system more complex.

    This is what I have learned over the years….. When there are advantages, there must also have its disadvantages. But if we know how to make the disadvantages into advantages then we can make a lot of money.

    In there is a cause, there must be an effect.

    Quote:
    The ERIC was conceptualised because Peter Waddington was puzzled as to why Koi in Japan didn't have the '3 downers'…………

    Comment:
    Just a hypothesis only and to scare the hell out of everybody who is going to buy and own those rare Go-Snake. There is not a shred of evidence to support it. He just relies on what someone claims. I have a set of hypothesis too on the immunology of koi but that will be a separate subject to discuss.

    Those frightening names given to it are also Japanese names. They origin from there!!! Hehehe… That mean they wake up the virus. If they have been so diligent with their cleaning routine and How are they going to explain KHV?

    Back then in 1995…. He said “ In ponds where filtration units do not allow a build-up of mechanical debris, I have never see “Hikui” appear. It is always in ponds which have little or no means of removing debris from under the filter media trays efficiently and regularly that problems with “Hikui” are experienced.”

    Read his statement critically and you see that he is talking about the extreme case and on probability. In addition….. from “regularly is satisfactory”…. he turns it to daily now. That is a quantum leap in discovery!!!! Did he warranty that using his rules and filtration system will guarantee that this “Hikui” will not happen?


    Quote:
    It seems you are bothered greatly by the aesthetics. I believe your filtration is underground? The ERIC can be underground too. What colour would you recommend for the box?

    The clearing of visible pollutants are dependent on the BD design, placement, flow, and the skimmers. If these are done well, pollutants are taken care of. Biowise, the ERIC is highly efficient for its volume.

    Comment:
    Yes loh…. The aesthetic is important. Yes my filtration is underground. The Eric system can be underground too but, it will not be economical and there will be a lot of modification required but if there is a maintenance service required, one will go banana. Black is a no no especially with that size and shape. I think if it is light grey in colour it will give an impression more like a water tank.

    When I refer to the pollutants in the main pond, I am concern with the ambient ammonia, nitrite and the total suspended solids that have pass thru the brushes and flow along the river back to the main pong.

    Let say… we feed a total of 300 grams of food daily to the kois in a 10m3 pond. Morning once and evening once. 4% of this food will be output as ammonia. That works out to 12 grams of ammonia.

    Let us assume the koi releases this ammonia linearly and equally over a 24 hours period. So…. Every hour there will be 0.5mg/l or 0.5ppm. The turnover is 2.5 hours for 10m3 of pond volume. His filtration detention time is only 3 mins. Very the good and fast. In a single pass everything settle. Don’t be happy. Hehehe…

    So in an hour, he can process 0.2 ppm. 0.3ppm is still in the pond and the koi need to be subjected and tolerate this rubbish of 0.3 ppm ammonia. Let say, we accept the ammonia acceptance level to be 0.1ppm on a temporary basis. So for the next 1.5 hours the koi is in danger. At the end of the 1st hour, there is another 0.5 ppm introduces and now the ambient ammonia will be 0.8ppm to be treated. So the water go into the filtration cycle and 0.32 ppm will be treated for the next hour and now the ambient ammonia in the pond is 0.48 ppm…. And the math keep adding up.

    We all know there will be ammonia spikes and koi will not all shit or expel ammonia uniformly and equally at the define interval. You see the problem or not? Hehehe…..

    Quote:
    I'm interested to see actual pics of your settler system and cleaning of it. Please share when you can.

    Comment:
    Sure. I am going to experiment on a new modification soon on its effectiveness that will allow me to wash the 1st chamber clean in less than 15 mins without the need to take out the 16 rows of tube settlers. If that is successful I will share with all brothers and sisters here.


    The moment you get into this Eric system, you will need the maintenance parts from him bro…. Part like Standpipe as his made has a rubber built in it, screw-on upvc airbar, pump and his fancy brass flap valves and his brushes box. Which can wear and tear during daily handling.

    Cheers

  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    re: Harry

    I'll try to reply as much as I can as I don't have as much technical knowledge as you.

    The 2 round holes are for users to insert the fingers in to pull out the box.

    The 2.5 turnover, and slow flow rate is so that suspended solids don't flow into the pond. If it goes through the brushes, it might still get stuck on the mats. These can then be removed the next flush

    It isn't 10% water change a day, though some hobbyist think that's a good volume to change daily. The biggest ERIC holds 500 litres, and depending on depth, can filter about 17500-48,000L. On the smallest volume, that's less than 3% daily. http://www.ericpondfilters.com/the-eric-range/eric-four/

    Water is only needed to be replenished via a trickle. As the chlorine is quickly diluted, and it's such a small change, no anti-chlorine is required regularly.

    The whole point of the ERIC is to stress that a good regular maintenance of a pond is highly important. Doesn't mean daily is a key. The key is to keep unwanted pathogens and dirt removed from the pond as often as possible. Doesn't matter what filtration system one has.

    The bio filtration side of the ERIC is the least worry. New ponds with ERIC hardly suffers from NPS. Ammonia goes to 0 in a few days, and keepers can keep feeding the fishes with no worries. Many evidence as such. Highly efficient bio in another words. No need for salt.
    http://koikichi.com/the-myth-thats-widely-known-as-nps/

    Brass valve only required if air pump is below water level. Brushes last a lifetime. Pumps you can use your own. Other stuff are quite cheap, and seem durable.

    --
    Another I like about the ERIC is the minimal water changes required to CLEAN the whole system. Fishes get stress with large water changes. More anti-chlorine etc needed following large water changes as well.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-17 11:08:09 am
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Nitrification via aeration optimizes the growth of nitrosomonas and nitrobacter bacterias and stagnates the population growth of harmful bacteria. Heavy aeration also separates the DOC from the water. Nitrosomas and nitrobacter can survive and grow from very soft very low mineral water to hard water but optimally multiply faster depending on the bacteria on certain temperature and with enough carbonate content(ph around 7.2 to 7.6). As these bacteria eats up ammonia and nitrites to form nitrates, the by-product is carbon dioxide. Heavy aeration and the introduction of some oxygen from the air creates air displacement in the water thereby helping push out some carbon dioxide before it reacts with water to form carbonic acid with slowly lowers the PH in the water. You can do a science experiment where you inject water with lots of Co2 and then recheck the Ph of the water to see the PH go lower. Then inject the water with pure oxygen and test immediately and you will notice the PH increase. As I am injecting 240liters per minute of air into a 1.5m x 3m x .65m area filter area, a sealed filter cover will not do and is not practical as such I have intentionally placed finger holes on my filter cover.

    My filters while might look tightly pack as gaps are just 10mm, in reality the space is more than a six inch transfer tube or sereral 4 inch transfer tubes in conventional up down filters and therefore drawdown is much less. To compute the gaps in each of my filter mat sets ( 10 mm x 650mm x 10gaps = 65,000 square mm or 100.8 square inch. A six inch transfer pipe only has an area of 28.743 square inch. Because of the the bigger area, the water pressure travelling thru the gaps is not that strong thereby creates more contact time per area of the mats and allowing settling of waste. In transfer pipes the incoming pressure is higher thereby there will be tracking of water where more water will come into contact to where there is stronger pressure. This creates an uneven distribution and inefficient use of the bio matts and thereby requiring more contact time to produce the same results. ERIC system recommends a minimum of four minutes contact time in the filter. Bakki showers with the correct media has a deceptive contact time. If you use just bioballs or just kaldness then the contact time is so fast in the bakki that there is just not enough time for the bacteria. If you use porous and absorbent inert material, some of the water penetrates the media and the water is slowly displaced out but not after bacteria inside the media treats the water.I have noticed this when I had updown filtration and now with ERIC like system with bakki.

    My system uses a turnover of just thirty minutes with a five minutes retention time in the submerged filter and then afterwards travel to the three tier shower fikter packed with glass sintered media that has been designed to not block easily and allow some degassing. The reason why I chose thirty minutes instead of one or two hours is because in our tropical atmosphere and temperature, I need to maintain higher oxygen levels to improve the feed conversion ratio of the fish for them to easily grow and bulk up. Faster turnover also means a faster mechanical action whereby even after heavy feeding, the water stays clean immediately. With regards to ammonia buildup, I dont think this affected much as long as there are no waste buildup at the bottom of the pond. The walls of an well aerated matured pond are packed with good nitrifying bacteria that allows the liitle ammonia the koi secretes to be removed. You can test this by not feeding your kois for three straight days and then shutting down the filter pump but allowing aeration in the pond to continue for three hours. Then test the ammonia level in the pond to see if there was a build up. Why not feeding for three days? Because the condition is that no waste should build up at the bottom of the pond that would unnecessarily increase the bioload. Remember in ERIC setups, its not just about only the filter, its the totality of the setup. Proper use of bottom drain. Heavy Aeration. One bottom drain to one pump to one filter concept. Horizonal flow of water with disruption of water molecules per filter row to displace the water. Regular small drain of the mechanical and biological. and constant trickle of incoming water.
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    With regards to spawning, in Japan a big female is introduced with smaller male ( to reduce risk of injury to the female)in a small spawning pond where water can be suddenly drop to induce spawning. Some breeders practice natural spawning but many to reduce risk to the female oyagoi and improve the percentage of successful spawn( so that the eggs dont get eaten) would place the oyagois in the spawning pond but as soon as its time( i dont know how they know), they will sedate the oyagois and "push" out carefully the eggs and sperms of which they mix to fertilized.

    In some cases, there are accidental spawning in mudponds where a few big male are unintentional left along several females. After a season, the breeder would notice many small kois swimming, some females got roughed up with bruises or removed scales while some females got stressed out that they were not able to grow enough during the mudpond season.

    In any case, whether you choose to leave it in your pond or have the eggs remove by the dealer, there are still risk involved especially that you mentioned your pond contains jumbo male. A sudden temperature shift in water may all it takes to induce spawning, causing your male koi to keep on bumping your female koi with lots of eggs at night. In the meantime, egg bound females also have a higher risk as well if eggs are not released or reabsorb. Everybody like female kois becuase the rewards are higher but growing females are much harder and riskier.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-17 02:09:44 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good afternoon Bro HDCu and TomyC

    To Bro HDCu
    I will reply you later when I have properly digested what you have feedback.

    To Bro TomyC

    hehehe....... sorry for the math. Please allow me to comments.....

    Quote:
    The 2.5 turnover, and slow flow rate is so that suspended solids don't flow into the pond. If it goes through the brushes, it might still get stuck on the mats. These can then be removed the next flush.

    Comment:
    The suspended solids in the water column cannot be filtered of my the brushes. They are super fines bro. With 2.5 turnover.....the detention time in the filtration chamber is 7.5mins..... no way bro. It goes back into the pond for sure and will mix with the pond existing suspended solids to become bigger and heavy mass and settle down to the bottom of the pond. having said this..... to give a fair comment...... the dense mats will reduce some of this fines. My educated guess is around 20% only.

    So.... in reality the pond water will not be gin clear!!!

    Quote:
    It isn't 10% water change a day, though some hobbyist think that's a good volume to change daily. The biggest ERIC holds 500 litres, and depending on depth, can filter about 17500-48,000L. On the smallest volume, that's less than 3% daily.

    Comment:
    Yes.... it is not 10%. I have made an error in my computation. 0.5m3/10m3 x 100% = 5%. That is quite big a change too you know.
    I also don't know who is the smartalex invented this NPS thing. It is obvious if you coat the pond and the tank to seal the concrete and the cement sand plastering, you will not have NPS. His tank is most probably polyethylene material built... so his claim of not introducing NPS is valid IMO.

    Quote
    Water is only needed to be replenished via a trickle. As the chlorine is quickly diluted, and it's such a small change, no anti-chlorine is required regularly.

    Comment
    At 5% water change, NTS. The problem with chlorine is that it is a known toxin and the implications of drinking this toxin over the long-term (i.e. your lifetime) is highly uncertain.Many believe that Disinfection By-Products (DBP's) are the single greatest threat in our water supplies, risking both human health and our aquatic environments. So they then combine Chlorine with Ammonia when treating water supplies which creates Chloramine.Chloramine, whilst less toxic than chlorine is a very stable substance and therefore provides long term disinfection properties whereas chlorine is quickly dispersed. Chloramine is more difficult to remove from your water supplies than chlorine and is still very damaging to aquatic life. Our city water chorine content fluctuate and is quite high.
    At low levels, chlorine and chloramine will stress your koi, burn fins and gill tissues and strip mucus. They will also cause irreparable internal organ damage.

    Safe levels of chlorine and chlorine derivatives in water for fish life are less than 0.10mg/litre according to the EA in the UK.

    That is why there is a clear message in UK that one should stop drinking water and drink more beer. How true it is I don't know...... hehehe....

    Quote:
    The whole point of the ERIC is to stress that a good regular maintenance of a pond is highly important. Doesn't mean daily is a key. The key is to keep unwanted pathogens and dirt removed from the pond as often as possible. Doesn't matter what filtration system one has.

    Comment:
    His key point is DAILY now!!! No more REGULAR stuff in the equation.

    Here is link to a video I chance upon with Sir PW himself there explaining all the fluid mechanics like he has made a new discovery..


    Look at the bio part especially how dirty it can be and all the tracking tell tales signs there as well.... Look at the dirts that are stuck there with all the religious cleaning thing. Do you know how on earth those active immature form of insects come from?

    The best part is how he tries to explain to everyone how the block of water move like a plug flow over that miserable short length with the generous air bubbles in the way . It is like there are no boundaries conditions to start with in fluid mechanics to define how a plug flow will be and the law of gravitation pull does not apply here on earth!!!. It is as though the mats and the air bubbles in the basin will not provide resistance to the flow and each section of the water column flowing along his magical constructed basin and mats will travel in equal potential and kinetic energy along the route and suddenly will cyclone into the black holes and a riverline like condition has been created!!! Unbelievable....

    The truth is that, it does not matter lah how the flow will be like....as long as there is water flowing over the mat and the detention time is adequate, the bacteria will do the work well. It is the total surface area of the mats provided that is important for the bacteria colonised the surface.

    Each time you flush.... you need to off the pump else you will damage the pump. This is another point you need to be aware. I wonder why the owner would have a desire to wash the mats if all he has promoted is no need to do. It is obvious the owner cannot tahan looking at the shits there!!!

    Quote
    No need to salt

    Comment
    huh!!! Traditional filtration system need to be salted?

    Quote
    Brass valve only required if air pump is below water level.

    Comment
    The spring loaded non return brass valve is installed in line with the water pump. Look at his filtration setup again. For air pump no need to have the spring loaded non return valve. I don't think the air pump has that type of air pressure to load open it. The valve is there because it has something to do with a possibility of water flowing backward when the pump is having problem.

    Quote
    Another I like about the ERIC is the minimal water changes required to CLEAN the whole system. Fishes get stress with large water changes.

    Comment
    hehehe..... 5% small change everyday? Wah!!! you have buy into his marketing and promotional materials..... Despite the aesthetic look that will be disturbing to look at, the noises it will generate, the octopus pipework setup and the problematic ambient ammonia present....he has diluted and manage to turn it to his advantages. He has succeeded!!! He is a good sale man too.

    How bro?.....

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Salt: Some people do advise salting the pond to combat NPS. Please elaborate more on your coating comment. What about fibreglassed ponds?

    Brass valve: For installation of air pumps below water level so water doesn't go in when air pump is off.

    Pump off: You always off your pump before your flush your filters... Of course you can have one with a flap valve that auto-off when there's no water.

    Chlorine: If you pour a 200ml glass of tap water into your 20,000L pond, will your fish die? How about 1L? However, you can pour 500ml of tap water into a 500ml bowl of goldfish, and the fish might die.

    Video: The user had only flushed the filter once the year before. About 4:30 onwards. Those are small ERIC units anyway, which is why they are short. It's following 1 drain to 1 filter to 1 pump concept, which is why there's a few units.

    Noise: Aeration is important, and it's not only on the ERIC. Good ponds will seek to saturate oxygen. Again, the ERIC filter can be underground.

    Flushed water change %: It depends on the pond volume, and the box used. 3%-5% is the LARGEST it can be. Generally, it will be lesser. 3% daily is better than 20% once a week. If you are after growth, you need regular water changes, and a trickle. This is an acknowledged fact.

    Pipework: You don't have to wash the interior of the pipes. You reduce volume of the filter, so that you use less water to clean it and and flush it.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-17 04:34:51 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    hehehe..... ok we are going to the tiny science again.

    Quote
    Heavy aeration also separates the DOC from the water.

    Comment:
    How?

    Quote
    As these bacteria eats up ammonia and nitrites to form nitrates, the by-product is carbon dioxide.

    Comment
    Nitrification (aerobic process);
    NH4+ + 1.5 O2 => NO2- + H+ + H2O (by Nitrosomonas bacteria)

    NO2- + 0.5 O2 => NO3- (by Nitrobacter bacteria)

    Total equation: NH4+ + 2 O2 => NO3- + H+ + H2O

    Where is the by product carbon produce in the process?

    Quote
    As I am injecting 240liters per minute of air into a 1.5m x 3m x .65m area filter area, a sealed filter cover will not do and is not practical as such I have intentionally placed finger holes on my filter cover.

    Comment
    Bro..... wah!!! 240 litres of air per min into your water...... You impress upon me...your dissolve oxygen will not reach the saturation point? Bro... do the math and you will realise you are wasting good air and your pond temperature will rise like a volcano. hehehe....

    Quote
    My filters while might look tightly pack as gaps are just 10mm, in reality the space is more than a six inch transfer tube or sereral 4 inch transfer tubes in conventional up down filters and therefore drawdown is much less.

    Comment
    Yours is like open channel flow. No longer can be considered a close boundary conditions flow.

    Quote
    Because of the the bigger area, the water pressure travelling thru the gaps is not that strong thereby creates more contact time per area of the mats and allowing settling of waste.

    Comment
    So your designed filtration detention time is 5 mins. How you have came to the conclusion that 5 mins is adequate and that 5 mins will be more than enough to settle all the suspended solids in your bio chamber?

    Quote
    ERIC system recommends a minimum of four minutes contact time in the filter.

    Comment
    Sure or not. I thought his system is 3 mins only for the Eric four. It is interesting he spends so much time impressing the whole world with his pull and push standpipe and he has not taken the trouble to show that in a single pass of his filtration system of 3 mins or 4 mins detention time all the ammonia and nitrite will be converted to zero!!! Do you know why?

    Quote
    Bakki showers with the correct media has a deceptive contact time.........

    Comment
    Bro.... I am confuse.... Are you trying to tell me, your current river like open channel flow biological filter cannot convert in a single pass and that you need this bakki thing to polish it up?

    tell us..... if there is nothing for the bacteria in the bakki to eat..... what will happen?

    Quote
    With regards to ammonia buildup, I dont think this affected much as long as there are no waste buildup at the bottom of the pond.

    Comment
    What is your acceptable free ammonia NH3-H for your fishes? Suddenly it is as thought this invisible free ammonia thing is no longer important. Bro.... try to reduce your turnover and let ambient free ammonia be around 0.1ppm for a month and then report how your fish condition will be.

    Quote
    The walls of an well aerated matured pond are packed with good nitrifying bacteria that allows the liitle ammonia the koi secretes to be removed.

    Comment
    If this is true.. then you have over provided your whole filtration system bro!!!

    Quote
    Remember in ERIC setups, its not just about only the filter, its the totality of the setup.

    Comment
    precisely the point I am addressing. I question to system as a whole is of any better than the traditional proven method!!! I see no where it has proven anything except that it encourage you to daily pull and push the standpipe and give you the illusion everything bad has been wash away. That all.

    Quote
    One bottom drain to one pump to one filter concept.

    Comment
    You are reading into it with water submerging your rational thinking. He needs to have this statement incepted into everybody who uses his system because that is the size limitation of this coffin bro.

    Read again. Take Eric four as an example. Max flow allowable is 10m3/hr. recommended is 4m3/hr. If the concept of endless river flow is correct..... why cannot have it constructed longer? hehehe....

    Quote
    Horizonal flow of water with disruption of water molecules per filter row to displace the water.

    Comment
    ......he said to confuse the water. Your comment.

    Quote
    ....constant trickle of incoming water.

    Comment
    He did not recommend this. Do you know why it seems everybody using his system somehow by some magical spell will provide this feature into it?

    Quote
    In any case, whether you choose to leave it in your pond or have the eggs remove by the dealer, there are still risk involved especially that you mentioned your pond contains jumbo male. A sudden temperature shift in water may all it takes to induce spawning, causing your male koi to keep on bumping your female koi with lots of eggs at night.

    Comment
    Ok. Thanks for the valuable feedback. Now I banana already. I need to address this on a more serious note already.

    Cheers

  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Re: Harry

    quote: Comment
    Bro..... wah!!! 240 litres of air per min into your water...... You impress upon me...your dissolve oxygen will not reach the saturation point? Bro... do the math and you will realise you are wasting good air and your pond temperature will rise like a volcano. hehehe....

    Sorry Harry, can you kindly show us how to do the maths for the air pump requirements for a pond?
    Taking into account:
    water volume, depth, bio load, decomposition, algae, temperature, sunlight, koi sizes, various koi activities, supplementary aeration from waterfall and DOC?

    Also, as long as the air pump draws air from a cooling area, water temp won't increase? HD's pond hardly goes above 27deg.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-17 06:09:31 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    hehehe...... if only the koi can speak to us in our spoken language then all these problems will be solved.

    Quote:
    Please elaborate more on your coating comment. What about fibreglassed ponds?

    Comment
    Fiberglass-reinforced resin application is considered as being the Rolls Royce of lining a pond. They need to be done by a specialist. I applied Fosroc Nitocote EP405, a solvent free epoxy resin coating to the whole of my internal surfaces of the main pond and filtration chambers. Don't need special skills..... just general workers will do. Slimes or sludges will not adhere to it at all. So far so good.

    Quote
    Brass valve: For installation of air pumps below water level so water doesn't go in when air pump is off.

    Comment
    Bro... the air pump will not be able to push open the spring loaded valve and still have adequate pressure to drive air along the air pipeline. It will induces too much back pressure to the air pump and will prematurely damage it or shorten it life. If air pump is installed below the water line, an up stand U piping above the water line resolve the risk adequately. It is also advisable to install an air pressure release valve to ensure appropriate pressure is in check.

    I am actually referring to the brass spring loaded non return valve the system come with in your earlier link to his pumping system. He will not install it there for no reason.

    Quote
    Pump off: You always off your pump before your flush your filters... Of course you can have one with a flap valve that auto-off when there's no water.

    Comment
    Mine no need to off. Can continuously run while I cuci cuci until I am satisfy. Not pulling your legs.

    Quote
    Chlorine: If you pour a 200ml glass of tap water into your 20,000L pond, will your fish die? How about 1L? However, you can pour 500ml of tap water into a 500ml bowl of goldfish, and the fish might die.

    Comment
    0.5m3 of water change and let say the city incoming water chlorine read 5ppm. Let say the pond volume is 10m3. This mean the chlorine concentration in the pond after make up will be 0.25ppm or mg/l. Fish mati bro...... Of course not immediately but less than a week guarantee bye bye.

    Quote
    Video:.......

    Comment
    Video attached is to give you the reality of the unit in operation and the candid of feedback from the users. Pay attention to what he has to say critically and ask yourself why he has explained that way.

    Quote
    Noise: Aeration is important, and it's not only on the ERIC. Good ponds will seek to saturate oxygen. Again, the ERIC filter can be underground.

    Comment
    Agreed. But no need so many air pumps to reach O2 saturation point for any given temperature.

    The best it can only be in a PIT.

    Quote
    Flushed water change %: It depends on the pond volume, and the box used. 3%-5% is the LARGEST it can be. Generally, it will be lesser. 3% daily is better than 20% once a week. If you are after growth, you need regular water changes, and a trickle. This is an acknowledged fact.

    Comment
    Points noted and agreed.

    Quote
    Pipework: You don't have to wash the interior of the pipes. You reduce volume of the filter, so that you use less water to clean it and and flush it.

    Comment
    Not the washing part. The aesthetic part I am pointing out. It looks unsightly and disorganise. The more it is exposed, the more risk it will have.

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Re: Harry

    ---
    Comment
    0.5m3 of water change and let say the city incoming water chlorine read 5ppm. Let say the pond volume is 10m3. This mean the chlorine concentration in the pond after make up will be 0.25ppm or mg/l. Fish mati bro...... Of course not immediately but less than a week guarantee bye bye.
    ----
    Exactly my point... Your example is a 50% change!! My calculation isn't good. You can calculate what a 3% daily change of a 20,000L pond does at the end of a week.

    ----
    Comment
    Not the washing part. The aesthetic part I am pointing out. It looks unsightly and disorganise. The more it is exposed, the more risk it will have.
    ----
    Well, I'm saying the washing part. The easier to clean, the better. There are nicely designed and built up-down flow systems with nice sloping drains that help with that, but it will generally need some water to clean.

    What stuff is exposed, and what risk?

    ---
    Comment
    Agreed. But no need so many air pumps to reach O2 saturation point for any given temperature.
    ----
    How many is enough?


    ---
    Comment on pump
    Mine no need to off. Can continuously run while I cuci cuci until I am satisfy. Not pulling your legs.
    ---
    Then your pump is either in your pond, or you have not emptied the chamber the pump is situated in for cleaning. Or you are using pond water to keep feeding the pump. Or it's an external pump that is continuously looping. Do share on your ingenuity.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-17 07:49:17 pm
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Dont loose too much sleep with regards to the kois with eggs. Hehe. Im sure most of us hobbyist will encounter this problem( unless one only like male kois) one day and need to adress it one way or the other. Some just let it be. Some try to release the eggs by themselves. Some fast the kois until the eggs are reabsorbs into the body( I dont know how this technically works)

    With regards to constant trickle, he did recommend this in his articles and if you would like to ask him what would be better he would recommend it as well. Although this is not a requirement which will make his filter setup less effective. I have been doing constant trickle even before my present setup because it is easier. Even during flushing, constant trickle is continued. Even when there it is raining heavily, I still do constant trickle to balance the acid rain with incoming tap water with minerals. Only when i clean and replace the incoming tap filter( 10 micron filter and activated carbon cartridge to remove any chlorine) do I stop the constant trickle. In fact, after flushing of one filter set while the other filter activates, the kois dont even notice any changes and would still eat afterwards.

    Btw, my system is setup for automatic off and on of the water and air pumps. Once I drain the filter bay and it reaches a certain point, the external pump automatically shuts down, once water reenters the filter thru the BD and reaches a certain point the external pump activates and the air pump activates. My multiple airpumps does not heat up the water as all are aircooled with small fan. I am aware of oxygen saturation but the multiple airpumps with several airhose placed in the filter are design also to disrupt the water, increase the BOD, "cleans the mats, and acts somewhat as a foam fractionator. Large numbers of small bubbles present an enormous air/water interface for hydrophobic organic molecules and amphipathic organic molecules to collect on the bubble surface (the air/water interface). Water movement hastens diffusion of organic molecules, which effectively brings more organic molecules to the air/water interface and lets the organic molecules accumulate on the surface of the air bubbles. After heavy feeding, I would notice more foams floating on top of the filter. These are then easily flushed away the next day. This is what I mean by reducing the dissolved organic compound.

    I have to clarify that I did not say free ammonia is not important in slower turnover but the fact is there are ponds that have setup with a turnover of more than an hour and if you take their parameter reading it would also register very good water parameters. Water clarity however may not be as good though compared to a one with a much faster mechanical stage turnover.

    The one bottom drain to one pump to one filter setup makes a lot of sense even if you dont employ an ERIC. I have seen filter systems where there are multiple bottom drains in a big pond going to one settlement and pumped by just one big pump. What happens is that the pipe situated nearer or have shorter distance would suck in more water while the bottom drain far away will collect just minimal water and some organic waste will just collect in the pipes instead of being pushed towards the settlement chamber.

    The daily pull and flush of the filter is just akin to flushing a toilet. Remove the majority of the organic waste before it decomposes and makes the water condition deteriorate and before any bacteria in the waste multiply. You can do a simple experiment, collect around 50 grams of solid fish waste and put it in a glass of water marked A. Do the same and mark it B. On the glass marked B filter out the solid waste immediately using a very fine filter cloth.. On the glass marked A dont do anything but allow the waste to just settle. After one week, check the bacterial composition and water parameters(ph, ammonia, nitrites) of both water.

    The concept of using vortex and rotary drum filter is the same. Vortex require lots of space. RDF are expensive and as it have more parts it still requires maintenance. I do not question the traditional up down filter system as long as you maintain it regularly. I do have reservation allowing waste to accumulate for months in a long settlement chamber and not changing enough fresh water.

    Why did I need to put a bakki shower after the submerged filter system? I akin this to buying a sports car and then adding more horsepower by adding nitro, changing chips, etc. hehe. Seriously, the bakki serves four purpose.
    1. To cool the water.
    2. To capture very fine particulates( i placed a very fine polyester filter on on the first layer to protect the glass sintered media from getting dirty. The glass sintered media has very small holes inside where there is low oxygen that house billions of nitrate eating bactera but its weakness is that its surface should not be allowed to get blocked or else heterotrophic bacteria will form.
    3. To remove nitrates and degass the nitrogen by products that have been formed from the ModIfied ERIC
    4. To add more aeration.



    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-17 08:03:10 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro HDCu and Bro TomyC

    To Bro TomyC

    Ok. did not notice you have post to ask me a question. Let me try to answer.....

    Quote
    can you kindly show us how to do the maths for the air pump requirements for a pond?
    Taking into account:
    water volume, depth, bio load, decomposition, algae, temperature, sunlight, koi sizes, various koi activities, supplementary aeration from waterfall and DOC?

    This is how I sized my pumps:

    Total Air required = Air for Fish +Air for Ammonia nitrification + Air for Dissolve Oxygen level.

    At 25 degree C water the saturation value of dissolve oxygen is estimated to be around 8mg/l at 500m above sea level. My YSI Professional Plus(Pro Plus) instrument has also confirm this reading. A fish of 1kg will consume about 900mg of O2 per hour. ( conservatives values, koi paragliding in the pond or chasing each others...plenty of activities.)

    1) Calculate Air required for koi

    Planned for 9 koi @ 7kg/koi
    Oxygen intake rate is around 900mg/koi/hr
    Therefore oxygen required = 9koi x 7 x 900mg/koi/hr = 0.0567kg/hr = 1.36 kgO2/day

    2) CalculateAir for Ammonia nitrification
    Planned Food feed rate = 300grams/day
    Food intake convert to ammonia @ 4%
    Ammonia level expected is 4% x 300grams/day= 12grams/day = 0.012 kg/day

    Nitrification (aerobic process);
    NH4+ + 1.5 O2 => NO2- + H+ + H2O (by Nitrosomonas bacteria)

    NO2- + 0.5 O2 => NO3- (by Nitrobacter bacteria)

    Total equation: NH4+ + 2 O2 => NO3- + H+ + H2O

    Every 1 mol NH4+ required 2 mol O2
    1 mol NH4 = 18 g (molecural weight, 14+ 1 x 4)
    1 mol O2 = 32 g (molecural weight, 16x 2)
    This molecular weight can be obtained from http://www.webqc.org/mmcalc.php for those who want to know.

    Thus Every 18g of NH4 required 2 x 32g of oxygen

    Oxygen required = (32x2)/18x 0.012 kg/day = 0.043 kgO2/day

    3) Calculate Air for dissolve oxygen (DO)
    Consulted a waste water engineer, he informed Malaysia surface water oxygen level is typically measured at 2-4mg/l. I think koi will start to show sign of going to mati at 4mg/l of O2. hehehe

    My current pump circulation flow is designed for 12m3/hr. To maintain this O2 level, oxygen required = 4mg/l x 12m3/hr x1000/1000000 = 0.048kgO2/hr = 1.152 kgO2/day

    Now Total oxygen required = 1.36 + 0.043 + 1.152 = 2.56 kg/O2/day

    4) Air Requirement Calculation

    Density of Air, P = 1.2kg/m3
    Air O2 Content, Co = 21%
    Air Transfer Effcient, Csw = 8% (This is the value waste water engineer gave to me based on his test)

    Therefore Air Required = O2 load/(PxCSWxCo) = 2.56/(1.2x0.08x0.21)= 127m3/day= 5.3m3/hr

    Min Air required = 5.3m3/hr = 0.088 m3/min = 88 liters/min
    Air pump specification delivered = 2 x 85 liters/min at 2.4 psi ( i.e. airflow capacity at 1.65m head of water), That is 170 liters/min at a water depth of 1.8m deep. If air diffusers is position at the bottom of the perimeter pond and is 6ft deep...that is at 1.83m.

    We all study the gas equation PV=nRT in school. Remember?....so the nRT part is a constant.
    So.....We have P1 x V1 = P2 x V2

    Therefore....Actual airflow supply at 6ft depth will be 1.8/1.83 x 170 litters/min = 167 litters/min

    Factor of safety allow = 167/88 = 1.9. Too good. If one air pump kaput still ok. Min risk. Technically speaking.... oversupply!!! hahaha...

    waterfall and bakki things contribute little to gas exchanging between different medium. No need to calculate. they are illusion and make the math look complicated. hehehe... If they exist...just consider they do help but not included the design consideration.

    Ok. I know Bro HDCu will not be happy...... so I must say the truth. If this features are there.... Re-aeration will occur. Re-aeration is basically the process of oxygen exchange between the atmosphere and a water body in contact with the atmosphere. There will be a net transfer of O2 from the atmosphere and into the water if the pond water is below saturation. If pond water already reach saturation..... any more you dump in is a waste!!!. However, when there is photosynthesis produces....it will create supersaturated dissolved O2 levels.... meaning there will be a net transfer back into the atmosphere. Research is still ongoing and the science here is not exact and various models are used to explain the readings obtained. Since we are concern with our pond.... we skip this part as it is complicated.

    Now..... What happen if both the air pumps kaput...while I am outstation or on holiday? I have a contingency plan. I install an industrial venturi ejector that is rated to be able to introduce at 33 liters/min @ 2 bars. 1 bar is around 10m. So you see..... I use venturi ejector to supply 360 litters/min of air via my pumping return and there is no heat introduce into the water. You should install one at least..... they produced super fine air bubbles, give drama and for the koi to frolic around there. Any sign of eminent danger my koi will rush there. If you eventually decided to have it incorporated in your pond.... I will get the model no for you.

    Quote
    Also, as long as the air pump draws air from a cooling area, water temp won't increase? HD's pond hardly goes above 27deg.

    Comment
    Unless you are not living in the equator area...... otherwise ...... it defies the law of thermodynamics. I have explained and provide the calculation to estimate the increase in temperature. According to his feedback, my estimate temperature rise is close to his observation readings taken.

    HD's is not staying near the equator. Why not we ask him in this discussion..... his explanation of why his new system setup water temperature is higher than his previous setup? hehehe....... It cannot be just because of endless river flow concept he has introduced, right?


    Quote
    Exactly my point... Your example is a 50% change!! My calculation isn't good. You can calculate what a 3% daily change of a 20,000L pond does at the end of a week.

    Comment
    Not 50% lah. When we say there are 5ppm or 5 mg/liter of Chlorine in the water. This translate to 5mg of chlorine will be present. 0.5m3 = 500 litters. so there is 500liters x 5mg = 2500mg of chlorine in that 0.5m3 of water.

    when it replenish into the 10m3 pond or 10,000 litters. The concentration is diluted to 2500mg/10,000 = 0.25mg/l or 0.25 ppm. Fish will die at as low as 0.1 ppm.

    Now if it isr a 20 ton pond water. It will work out like this. PW will recommend for at least 3 of Eric 4 system. You will then be replenishing 1.5m3 of water every morning.

    Let say the chlorine is at 5ppm.
    So..... 1500L x 5 = 7,500 mg of chlorine. 7500mg/20,000 = 0.375 ppm. Fish mati.

    Ok....you call up the municipal council and complain kau kau.....they reduce to 3ppm. You will still get 0.225ppm chlorine and the fish mati again. hehehe.....

    So.... an effective method will be to install an activated carbon filter of a size that can handle the incoming chlorine load. Problem managed. In line UV stabilise also can kau tim the chlorine.

    Quote
    Well, I'm saying the washing part. The easier to clean, the better. There are nicely designed and built up-down flow systems with nice sloping drains that help with that, but it will generally need some water to clean.

    Comment
    Ok.... it is the pump part...... because of the setup of the unit above the water line, the pumping line need a non return valve in case the pump fail and all the water rush back to the pond, all the good nitrifying bacteria in the mat will mati given long enough. For short period the bacteria is still viable but not non-culturable already.

    Quote
    What stuff is exposed, and what risk?

    Comment
    The pipeworks and the rest of it. See the penang setup you have link for me to read.

    Cheers

  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    hahaha..... you ar.... haha. Ok I will try to get some sleep over the eggs.

    Quote
    Even when there it is raining heavily, I still do constant trickle to balance the acid rain with incoming tap water with minerals. Only when i clean and replace the incoming tap filter( 10 micron filter and activated carbon cartridge to remove any chlorine) do I stop the constant trickle.

    Comment
    Your environment so acidic one ar? You roof over your pond or bare exposed? How do you know your activated carbon cartridge is no longer effective?

    Quote
    my system is setup for automatic off and on of the water and air pumps. Once I drain the filter bay and it reaches a certain point, the external pump automatically shuts down, once water reenters the filter thru the BD and reaches a certain point the external pump activates and the air pump activates.

    Comment
    Mine is when water level fall below the design level it shut down but mine air pumps will continue to supply air to the main pump. hehehe.... Why are you not doing this way?

    Quote
    My multiple airpumps does not heat up the water as all are aircooled with small fan.

    Comment
    You can place your hand at the bottom plate of the air pump for as long as you want?

    Quote
    I am aware of oxygen saturation but the multiple airpumps with several airhose placed in the filter are design also to disrupt the water, increase the BOD, "cleans the mats, and acts somewhat as a foam fractionator.

    Comment
    Like PW trying to explain to the koi keepers.... TO CONFUSE THE WATER? Bro.... what happen to your proposed sieving method that we have deliberated before?

    Your pond has a lot of foam generated?

    Quote
    Water movement hastens diffusion of organic molecules, which effectively brings more organic molecules to the air/water interface and lets the organic molecules accumulate on the surface of the air bubbles. After heavy feeding, I would notice more foams floating on top of the filter. These are then easily flushed away the next day. This is what I mean by reducing the dissolved organic compound.

    Comment
    Your concrete pond sealed or not? May i know, how long you took to construct your pond? How long have you allow your cement sand plastered surface to cure before you introduce water into it?

    tell me your pond water has a soapy feel or not?

    Quote
    The one bottom drain to one pump to one filter setup makes a lot of sense even if you dont employ an ERIC.

    Comment
    Cannot agree on this. Tell me your maid has a dedicated toilet and bathroom all to herself or not?

    Quote
    I have seen filter systems where there are multiple bottom drains in a big pond going to one settlement and pumped by just one big pump. What happens is that the pipe situated nearer or have shorter distance would suck in more water while the bottom drain far away will collect just minimal water and some organic waste will just collect in the pipes instead of being pushed towards the settlement chamber.

    Comment
    Unless that pond is so big and the pipe length are substantial varied in the order of 2..... The discharge difference will not be even noticeable. If I design, sure all will be equal.... just need to do a bit more math. I am not familiar with your part of the world and culture, mine side here.... many think they are the architect and engineer and they can do all these professional works..... and in the end when think don't work to expectation.... they blame on the contractor for doing a shoddy work.

    Quote
    The daily pull and flush of the filter is just akin to flushing a toilet. Remove the majority of the organic waste before it decomposes and makes the water condition deteriorate and before any bacteria in the waste multiply.

    Comment
    Aidoi bro.... a small miserable 0.3 tp 0.5m3 compare to a volume of 10m3 of shits present in the water column and you believe that shit are clean. Look at the video I have linked in the post.

    Tell me... why is their a need to explain to those people..... if it makes sense. Reading in between the lines..... that lot of people is not buying and convince to his claim but they have been polite only.

    Quote
    You can do a simple experiment, collect around 50 grams of solid fish waste and put it in a glass of water marked A. Do the same and mark it B. On the glass marked B filter out the solid waste immediately using a very fine filter cloth.. On the glass marked A dont do anything but allow the waste to just settle. After one week, check the bacterial composition and water parameters(ph, ammonia, nitrites) of both water.

    Comment
    Ok... I will do the experiment if you are brave enough to drink the filter one. hehehe.... deal?
    You see the point?

    Quote
    The concept of using vortex and rotary drum filter is the same. Vortex require lots of space. RDF are expensive and as it have more parts it still requires maintenance.

    Comment
    bro.... Go and measure your filtration footprint and tell me what is the ratio of your pond footprint compare with your filtration footprint. i will excuse the bakki because that is a special feature.

    Quote
    Why did I need to put a bakki shower after the submerged filter system? I akin this to buying a sports car and then adding more horsepower by adding nitro, changing chips, etc. hehe. Seriously, the bakki serves four purpose.
    1. To cool the water.
    2. To capture very fine particulates( i placed a very fine polyester filter on on the first layer to protect the glass sintered media from getting dirty. The glass sintered media has very small holes inside where there is low oxygen that house billions of nitrate eating bactera but its weakness is that its surface should not be allowed to get blocked or else heterotrophic bacteria will form.
    3. To remove nitrates and degass the nitrogen by products that have been formed from the ModIfied ERIC
    4. To add more aeration.

    Comment
    hahaha..... tapik you lah.

    Are you sure it is not you thought you have brought a sport car of your dream and realise it is behaving like a scooter and you need to add wings to it in order to fly? hehehe...

    Next.... the numbering used here mirrored the numbering you used.

    1) If your pond temperature is cool already around the ambient temperature of your environment. How on earth you manage to make it cooler when the laws of thermodynamic said otherwise?

    2) This mean the river lines thing and the brushes all are hopeless against the suspended solids that are on your multiple raceway!!!

    3) hmmm.... denitrifying bacteria also coming in to your pond system. Denitrification can only be performed under anaerobic conditions. Your have found a method on how to make your bakki areas to have stagnant water? What happen to your rich oxygenated water in your return? How on earth you manage to find the 10 negatively charged electron and 12 molecules of positively charged hydrogen to carry out the denitrification? I want to know.

    4) Bro... with so many fine air bubbles you are supplying until foam also present here and there already and your water already reach saturation point.... how will your bakki add more aeration? Your bakki thing can do photosynthesis to create supersaturate water? hehehe....

    You are pulling my legs. No way.

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Hi Harry,

    If chlorine via trickle is an issue, many koi would go kaput already.
    20ton pond won't need 3 ERIC 4s. If 2 drains, 2 ERIC 1s will do. Each holds only 100L.
    You can do the maths if you like to.

    What I'm saying is there's little concern for water coming in through a small trickle. Of course a chlorine filter can be fitted if the hobbyist wants to.

    --
    Yep, please share on the venturi ejector. Seems interesting. If I understand correct, it provides good water currents via just air? My only concern: Does it protrude into the pond?
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    First of all I would like to apologize to everyone for hijacking the thread with very long post. But I hope we get excuse as the discussion is an interesting one with differing views on koi keeping skills( maybe advance to some newbie though).

    Bro Harryyew,

    1. I am able to make it a little bit cooler because I am presently manipulating and taking advantage of the surrounding temperature. From November to February our night temperature here can drop to 23C but averages around 25. I presently employ a modified bakki which I called FATS( Fan activated trickle shower) Basically it is derived from forced air cooling using water resistant radiator fans. Using this method I have been able to get consistent 25C reading during the cooler months. It does not matter even if there is a little buildup of temperature from the massive aeration in filters( btw, with the pump being aircooled I can handle easily the bottom of the airpumps). The problem is when after february to End of May, night temperature averaged 27 to 28 with morning temperature reaching 33 to 35. This brought up the pond temp to as high as 28 C. Howevever, in comparison to other hobbyist, this was still two to three degrees lower. I thought about it for a long time and was contemplating shading further my pond but I wanted sunlight at least four hours morning sun to provide the necessary factor to improve the beni of the kois as such I scrapped this idea. I am now trying to manipulate the surrounding air temperature around the pond using a fine mist system. So far I have been able to lower now the temperature below 27 and somewhat block the intense sunlight in the morning. Fine misting system though has its drawbacks. It needs 200 wats of power , a little noisy and needs around 30 liters an hour of water and will not work much when there is very high humidity already like during a rainfall or just after one. However,it does provide cooler incoming air into the house( pond is located directly outside the house). Eventually I might consider using a chiller but this will need more energy requirement to the one I am presently experimenting.

    2. In the system, Brushes will act to capture the bigger waste. The mats will act to capture and bring down the finer waste that pass through the brushes. The very fine waste will be captured by the very cheap fine polyester filter placed on top of the bakki. All the brushes and matts are flushed everyday for just five minutes each module). The filter polyester is just replaced after two weeks of use.

    3.You are correct that nitrates are reduced under anaerobic conditions. This is why I use the expensive glass sintered media. This media contains oxygen poor porous chamber that promote the growth of nitrate eating bacteria while its surface promote an oxygen rich environment for nitrososomas and nitrobacter to live on. The weakness of this media is that it should be NOT be allowed to get blocked or else heterotropic bacteria will colonize the inside of the media. The remaining minute ammonia and nitrites and smaller fines that may still pass thru the submerged filter will be captured as well in the shower filter. Meanwhile the nitrates formed in the heavily aerated submerged filter will be treated by the filter media in the bakki setup. This gives me added insurance and allowance to exploit feeding heavily on certains days or when the maid forget to flush the accumulated waste in the brush chamber.

    4. My present setup allows me to bypass entirely the bakki and choose to return the submerged aerated water directly at midway creating more verical movement. I have tested different setups and have now adjusted to a 75- 25ratio ( 75 percent goes to bakki first while 25 percent creates some circular movement in the water. I have chosen this setup after observing that his provided a more balance water quality, some movement of water for some exercise and rest, while pushing most waste immediately towards the bottom drain. I cannot answer scientifically whether the saturation point is already reach so why need to go to bakki. i do know that as the water passes through the bakki from the submerged filter, cooler air is forced to the showers which results in cooler water coming out of the bakki. And as you know, colder water improved the oxygen retention capability of the water. So assuming I already reached saturation at 28 C( possible increase of one degree from the numerous airpumps i installed) and then the water is split and into trickles which are aircooled resulting in cooler water going back to the pond from the bakki at 26C. Doesnt the 26C hold more oxygen entering the pond than the 28C water temperature entering the pond? Did I in effect add more oxygen in the water or did not?

    I cannot answer some of your comments as some are illogical. Why do I need to drink the science experiment? Its just a laboratory test I am asking and not a "i dare you" thing. What does my maid toilet and bathroom( yes she has her own) have to do with kois or the concept of understanding the settlement filter as the toilet bowl?

    I have not gotten to the seiving project simply because I believe this will block easily. I have gone to a maximum of five days without flushing and the filter never got blocked. I know a hobbyist here who used a cetus seive and eventually he got disgusted and changed to brushes and now is more contented.

    My pond took two months to finish. Digging thru bedrock took the longest time. After cementing, pond with waterproof additive, it was allowed to cure for three weeks. Two component epoxy primer ( designed for pond) was applied two coats with drying interval. After pond was was shinny and slippery, epoxy black paint( recommended by manufacturer for ponds) was painted over the primer. After cure, whole paint job was washed with soap, water was filled up for a week and then dumped. There is no chipping of paint so far and no increase in PH whatsoever. I performed A fishless cycle for 21 days until the water matured and afterwards placed all the kois and started normal feeding.

    My water does not have any soapy feel nor any smell to it. Some little oil will settle on the surface whenever I throwin food but this disappear within minutes.

    With regards to the carbon filter, I regenerate it by placing it in the microwave every month to boil out the trapped chlorine. I change the activated carbon cartridge every four months. Aside from this I have around 20 kilos of activated carbon submerged in the filter to capture any chlorine that may be released into the pond. This are also regenerated every three months.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-18 03:20:24 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro TomyC and Bro HDCu

    hehehe......

    To Bro TomyC

    Before you start to trickle trickle the tap water....... Please allow me to share this with you.

    Chlorine and chloramines are two entirely different substances. While one can be eliminated easily (chlorine) the other has to be neutralized (chloramines). Our city water pakai chloramine as an alternative to chlorine.

    If the city water is treated with Chlorine....one need not have to remove it like there is no tomorrow, because it breaks up rapidly on its own..... water containing chlorine sit for a few days it will disappear. Chloramines is different and don't break up like chlorine does. It usually takes weeks to disappear. They are harmful to fish and must be removed from water because the fish will take chloramines directly from the water into their bloodstream......

    The question we now appear to be deliberating is whether small amount of water is added to a pond to make up for evaporation or to create a river stream water condition.... do chloramines really affect the koi in small quantity.....

    How much one trickle trickle I don't know..... but....what I know is that the total chloramines residue should be kept below 0.1ppm.

    Someone was relating to me..... people trickle trickle water into their pond will eventually find their fishes not healthy. I cannot answer as I have not verified it myself as to whether their incoming source was treated or raw.

    Now....granular activated carbon filter appear to be a good solution. I use it too in my incoming feed. However, it is not so simple as to use a granular activated carbon canister and it will neutralise the chloramines effectively..... there is a minimum contact time between the water and filter to ensure its full effectiveness.

    If the pond is 20 ton of water and using 2 Eric 1s (I revisited his website and his materials point to.... will need more than 2 units Eric 1s... but that will be separately discussed) then everyday we dump 0.2m3 of water. Assuming the total chloramines is 5ppm at the incoming feed. therefore everyday the concentration introduce will be at 0.05ppm into the pond. If let say chloramines takes 2 weeks to disappear.... by 14 days the concentration is at 14 x 0.05 = 0.7ppm. I think the fish sure die.

    When we use Eric system, we are not talking anymore about trickle trickle water leh....We are talking about everyday fix amount of water quantity will need to make up for the discharge carried out at the cleaning process. As long as your incoming water is treated to accommodate the new system process..... it will works.

    here is a link to the pdf file of the fluid ejector you can select to me your needs.
    http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair%20Water%20Treatment/Literature/540%20Fluid%20Ejectors%20Brochure%203026818.pdf

    Yes..... it provides good water currents by return water drawing air with it. I attached it at mid pond depth. You can attach a hose to an above grade tank and have other fluid to be ejected if you want. You need to have a strong pump. It is a small little gadget and no sharp edges but relatively expensive for a piece of plastic.

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Re: Harry

    Venturi Ejector:
    How strong a pump?
    Assuming I want it to replace a Hiblow 80lpm, 71w. http://www.kockneykoi.co.uk/products/pumps-and-prefilters/hiblow-air-pumps.php

    It will need an air outlet somewhere?
    I assume it can't be used with an existing pond return?

    Can you detail clearly how these are connected? Don't understand the fluid ejection part.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-18 10:38:18 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    To Bro HDCu

    So from November to February..... what is your day temperature and RH value?

    Answering your paragraph 1

    Bro.... you need to understand more about adiabatic change if you want to take the evaporation cooling system to works. Go and download the psychrometric chart as some smartalex has it graphically represented.

    What i see.... is that you are carrying out try and error method to find your solution. The best currently what you are doing is what I named as Thermal comfort only to you but not to your fish!!! It will waste your time and effort as your current thoughts and directions heading for will not get your far!!! It will mist you up for sure.

    If you want shading and want plenty of light...... install Low E-glass for your roofing. I have mine done that way..... it makes hell lot of different.....less heat all day light. It also provides a modern outlook to your pond too!!!.

    Answering your paragraph 2

    I got an impression you are repeating what you are doing with your old system but this time round you added a few more elements to go with it. So you agree the brushes are primitive and not effective? A settling chamber..... must be such that it is design so that to remove 90 to 95% of settleable solids, 40 to 60% of the total suspended solids, and 25 to 35% of biological oxygen demand (BOD).

    Now... if you can think of a way to increase the effective settling area whether using brushes or other medias and reduce your surface overflow rate then you will be able to remove the suspended solids significantly and you might not need to clean your bio chamber biweekly and all those polyester filter.

    Answering paragraph 3

    .....in order for denitrifying process to happen.....Heterotropic and autotrophic bateria must be present right?

    I have a hypothesis...... That those ponds that employed BS design in which they have not got the right the amount of media and the correct flow will have more incidents of diseases.

    How do you proposed to minimize these bad bateria entering into your new pond and populate there too when your feed rate are high high? Hehehe.....

    Answering paragraph 4

    Give me your location altitude and your ambient temperature.

    Cooler water will not provide longer retention but increase the saturation point. May be you mean it will have more reserve of O2?

    Assuming your reading of 28 to 26 is the value taken correctly.... after all the efforts and trouble you did.... you manage to increase around 0.25mg/l of O2. So what does this tell us?

    .... sorry... for putting the way about the experiment to you. I am trying to impress upon you both the liquids are still shit water full of bacteria irrespective whether there are food or not for them to convert and reproduce. Are you trying to tell me the bottle with shit will have less bacteria or otherwise?

    One pipe to one pump to one filter to me is not a necessity and is a waste if we are looking at it as a collecting system for treatment. Your maid thing confirms..... it is your culture and generosity of providing luxury and privacy to each individual irrespective of their status. In this case.... I have to accept it is all the time in your beliefs that this is the most logical and appropriate approach to provide.

    Your concrete pond is still hydrating exponentially. Your curing time is inadequate.

    You coat your filtration internal area too?

    Cheers


  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Hi Harry.

    Your J-Mat under your tube settler chamber seems to confirm the up-flow limitation:
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13125/IMG_0566.JPG.jpg

    If I understand your pictures correctly, water basically tracks one sided towards the inlet of the other chamber.

    You can confirm that by checking inside your tube settlers. The side furthest away from your inlet/outlet should be the cleanest.

    If you could incorporate your ingenious designs while understand these waterflow, I'm sure your pond will be better.

    Waste water management do use horizontal flow designs.

    Some info:
    http://koikichi.com/water-flow-patterns/

    ---
    "Your concrete pond is still hydrating exponentially. Your curing time is inadequate. "
    If a concrete pond is to be fibreglassed, how would you arrange curing?
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-18 11:53:20 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    Actually I wanted to show you some pics of it.... but cannot find. It might be in my other computer. I will try to look for it.... else I either take a pic again or I will draw the sketch to you.

    Anyway...please allow me to try to provide a description on how to install it.

    (a) 1 st determine your water return outlet pipe discharging directly from the wall of the pond. What size.

    (b) Let say you have a 1" outlet at somewhere 600mm from the top surface of your pond. Then... you will select the 542 model. Bigger pipe outlet then select the corresponding model to match it from page 2.

    (c) when you go to the 2nd page, you will find there are red, white and blue. I choose the blue as it give the most nozzle flow rate at a given inlet pressure. So it is 542-3

    (d) on that table (page 2) you read the 1st row and at the 1st col, you will see the figs 20 (1.37). That is inlet pressure at 20 psi or at 1.37 bars you will be able to provide nozzle flow rate of 8.20 gals/min or 31.7 L/min

    (e) I get the NPT type no protrusion type, the pic on 1st page at 5 o'clock.

    (f) The ejector is a T-tee with 3 sided all come with female thread ready to screw up. The T-tee portion shown pointing downward will be actually pointing directly toward the sky. All the 3 holes come with a female thread. So you connect the fitting into it with the size either with a reducer to change to a 1/2 pipe for air intake from the atmosphere via a PVC pipe socket end with a male thread socket and screw on it until it hand snug tight. Make sure the pvc pipe protrude above the water line. You then install a ball valve there above the water line... to regulate how much air you want to drawdown.

    (g) at your return pipe outlet in the pond from the wall you need to install a socket that have a male thread to receive the ejector.

    (h) that all, the remaining opening end no need to install anything since we just want direct air discharging out thru it.....

    Specific gravity of air very light and the have an example on how much drawrate you can expect for a given inlet pressure (mean return pressure at the pong pvc outlet) Use that chart provided to get your approximate efficiency %.

    I don't know what how you route your piping and the pump and so cannot estimate the back pressure you may have. For the inlet pressure (which for us mean the water return pressure at the outlet can be estimated or you can place a pressure gauge to read the value.

    To simplify if got 1 bars outlet can draw air already as air SG is very light. Liquid then only use the table. On a Tsurumi pump 40PU2.1S about (0.2hp) already can get air out but not as good as when I connect it to the 50PUW2.75S which is a 1hp pump.


    Quote:
    It will need an air outlet somewhere?

    Comment
    From the Tee of the perpendicular part. Drawing air in as the water pushes thru the opening.
    It is the same as a venturi pipe discharge but this are precision ejector only that can also draw other fluid.

    Quote
    I assume it can't be used with an existing pond return?

    Comment:
    Can. Not as convenient as I can when my pond is dry install.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    Having a settling chamber is to remove the solids and as much suspended solids(these are the super fine which our naked eyes can hardly detect) so that it will not carried over to the 2nd and 3rd chambers like no body business. The cleaning of the 2nd and 3rd chamber is the challenging part.

    That pic last time I took is to depict that there not much dirt or fine accumulate there after a month or something like that. But then my fishes are around 50cm + size. Now fishes all big big and If after 3 months.... underneath the mat, can see everywhere where collecting the fines. Very frightening if let HDCu see. hehehe..... he will rub me. hehehe....

    I have a new modification in mind which I believe will be more effective but yet to be verified. My aim is to have less fines collected here so that I can drag it to a longer interval to clean it.

    wait... I read the link you provided and feedback my view if any.

    Thanks for the link and the suggestions too.

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Oh wow..thanks for the detailed explanation on the ejector.

    So yours is a closed loop installation with no filter? Huge power consumption though...400W on the 50PUW2.75!

    So technically, the fluid ejector can also be installed 'in-wall', so it is flush to the wall, as long as the perpendicular pipe can continue to draw air at a certain area? Bends should be fine?

    I'm interested in this purely for the current. Though I'm balancing economy of it vs regular pond returns. Maybe you can be kind to explain why this is better way for currents and aeration than a regular pond return plus air pumps.

    Does your koi like swimming against this current? I would love to see a video of it.

    ----
    Quote:
    Specific gravity of air very light and the have an example on how much drawrate you can expect for a given inlet pressure (mean return pressure at the pong pvc outlet) Use that chart provided to get your approximate efficiency %.

    I don't know what how you route your piping and the pump and so cannot estimate the back pressure you may have. For the inlet pressure (which for us mean the water return pressure at the outlet can be estimated or you can place a pressure gauge to read the value.
    -----

    It's too complex for me. Can you use yours as an example, and how it influenced your pump choice?



    In what situation would you draw fluid instead?

    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-19 01:23:23 am
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I will admit that what I have done in all those years in this hobby is by trial and error, based on research, and based on actual experience. The Mist system is not new, its being used in cooling chicken or pig pens during hot dry environmnet. There is a graph that provides how thousands of very fine water get evaporated in the air reducing the ambient temperature up to 25Degrees farenheit depending on the temperature and humidity. I have only used it for less than a month and not consistent because it has been raining already a lot lately. However, during times when it was hot during the day and night and I activated the mist system along with my FATS. There was an actual registered drop in water pond. Taking the temperature of the forced air from the fans registered a cooler air being forced to cool the trickle water as compared to when the mist is not activated. Whether this is more efficient in terms of energy consumption of lets say using a chiller in an outdoor setting is something I am still studying. i have also considered a low E glass roof but after studying the long term maintenance of it( cleaning) and how it will block the air coming into the house, I decided to scrap the idea.

    As you know there are two school of thought with regards to how much aeration is too much and how long should waste in the filter be kept before it needs to be removed. Before when I was starting in this hobby, I didnt think aeration is important. Big bubbles to me looked more efficient than very small bubbles. There was no need to aerate the filter. However, after changing my thinking, I am more happy. When Toshi Sakai who has been in the koi business for more then thirty years producing lots of grandchampion in Japan and other countries visited hobbyist ponds here, he always would recommend the need for more aeration in hobbyist ponds. I doubt he would know the computation you provided here with the help of an engineer. if you ask him why, he would just say it it would be better for the kois. If you ask him how many, he would just reply, " more, the better". Ask him how he thinks filter should be setup, he would just say use lots of japanese mats and aerate them and just do maintenance and flush and change water. Best water temperature for koi would be at 24 C. Crude and simple. Same also with Futoshi Mano.

    The nice thing about this hobby is that there are many ways of koi keeping. I guess the biggest difference between us is that for you it is Ok to just collect the waste in a very efficient settlement chamber and clean it not so often to save on water and total time spent in a year cleaning the filters. On the other hand, I practice frequent clean up of all trapped waste, regular water change to dilute whatever the filter cannot remove. My dilema in settling koi waste for longer period than necessary is for one it increases the bioload( more waste collected is like adding more kois) and two is that bad bacteria is easier to multiply than good bacteria. Why is it that when a fish gets sick, dealers would recommend cleaning the filter and treating the pond with medicine. How come Ph crash happens more often in systems that are rarely cleaned? Assuming your fish get sick and it is still not yet your scheduled flush of your settlement chamber, are you in agreement that you would still not clean your settlement chamber? To say that your fish has not gotten sick yet does not guarantee it wont get sick. How about you convince the other serious hobbyist with US$3600 tosai tategois and even more expensive bigger kois that they should stop changing water too much , stop flushing their mechanical settlement(vortex, brushes, cyclone, rdf, etc.) and instead JUST build a very efficient settlement device that will collect all the waste for months leaving the bio chamber in " pristine condition" to save on time, effort and water but just feed minimally twice or once a day to prevent too much buildup of waste too soon.


    I do not know where you get the impression that I am guilty of overfeeding. 400 grams per day of 36 percent protein (FD) for 10 big hi quality kois is not exactly overfeeding. That is all it takes for now to grow my kois for competition while maintaing a TDS of 80 - 85 with a 69 - 72 tds incoming water source in a 20 ton pond setup. I never worry about heavy rain as my Ph has always remained constant at 7.2- 7.4. As an added protection to prevent bad bacteria from multiplying aside from employing massive aeration to promote growth of good and retard growth of bad bacteria, I regularly use lactic acid bacteria mixed with the koi food. This helps in the FCR and retards the growth of bad bacteria in the koi waste.





  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    <blockquote rel="HDCu">
    I do not know where you get the impression that I am guilty of overfeeding. 400 grams per day of 36 percent protein (FD) for 10 big hi quality kois is not exactly overfeeding.
    </blockquote>
    Yep, better spread over a number of feeding periods.

    Anyway, this video part 2 of 3, sums of few practices both HD and I mentioned earlier that are important for koi growth:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wJeJQ1a-PU

    Harry, you got one part really right: strong current.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-19 09:49:38 am
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro HDCu and Bro TomyC

    To Bro HDCu

    The mist system is marketed for thermal comfort and not an effective cooling system for the pond.

    If you like, you provide me with the basic data I have requested.... I will proof to you it is hopeless for the current objective you are considering.

    Bro... aeration is a must and best to have it to saturation point. My system O2 is saturated kau kau at all depth but not more to waste. Filter mats sizing also provided kau kau as I have allow my feed rate to 1kg per day. No problem in a single pas to reach the water quality parameters.

    Dealer may be never take care of the cleaning at all but when thing fall a part, He do a spring clean. hehehe

    Bro... don' frighten me.....about the Ph crash. I have ordered the Hach P33 to monitor my pH and temperature will be delivered to me soon. So far don't have pH crash rain or shine. Touch wood.

    Clean I clean my filtration system. It is we have different method and frequency in the cleaning.

    No need to convince the serious hobbyist with US$3600 tosai tategois and even more expensive bigger koi. My koi dealer visited me recently, he was impressed and was looking at the fish for more than an hour. He said.....with the way i can get all these kois to this standard, sizes and your water gin clear all the time..... he is prepared to sell to me his best grade koi at a much much lower prize. What does it mean?


    hehehe....

    Cheers




  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Bro Tomy

    I will reply all the matter you have raised tomorrow.

    HM calling me to assist her with something.

    Cheers

  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good Afternoon Bro HDCu and Bro TomyC

    To Bro TomyC

    Quote
    So yours is a closed loop installation with no filter? Huge power consumption though...400W on the 50PUW2.75!

    Comment
    No, I have 2 sets of pumps to serve two routes of the return flow. In each set, one will be on duty while the other will be on standby. Change over with each set is set for every 6 hours.

    Quote
    So technically, the fluid ejector can also be installed 'in-wall', so it is flush to the wall, as long as the perpendicular pipe can continue to draw air at a certain area? Bends should be fine?

    Comment
    Yes. But why would you want it to flush with the surface of the wall?

    Quote
    I'm interested in this purely for the current. Though I'm balancing economy of it vs regular pond returns. Maybe you can be kind to explain why this is better way for currents and aeration than a regular pond return plus air pumps.

    Comment
    If purely for current I don't think you need the ejector but it does provides a stronger jet due to it reduce nozzle size.. You can plan for the return piping outlet to be place at strategic location at varying depth to create currents in the pond.

    I did not really plan or do the math for this part. Just use my educated guess how the fluid mechanic will most probably behave... be based on the given water boundary conditions of the pond in relation to the BD outlet.

    Quote
    Does your koi like swimming against this current?

    Comment
    They swim everywhere and like to do paragliding in oblige circles. My pond is not designed for much horizontal direction swim thus forcing them to behave like that. hehehe... They like to rest again the flow of the current at varying depth. Does your koi sleep by aligning themselves in the north south direction?

    Quote
    Can you use yours as an example, and how it influenced your pump choice?

    Comment
    My pump choice is decided based on many other factors. Factors such as the multiple return outlets via different routes, pressure sufficient to drive the water through the sand filtration to polish the water and to the chiller. The Venturi ejector is plan to add drama and a contingency plan.

    Quote
    In what situation would you draw fluid instead?

    Comment
    For koi pond..... none.

    Cheers


  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Harry,

    Please upload pictures of your venturi setup!
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    To Bro HDCu

    Quote
    The Mist system is not new, its being used in cooling chicken or pig pens during hot dry environmnet.

    Comment
    True..... the best this system provides is thermal comfort. Ok. I get you now... you are saying that you can use the mist system to cause your atmosphere to be become locally saturated.... then the temperature will fall. Right?

    Now....you look at the graph you are holding ( I believe you are referring to the psychosomatic chart). Let us assume you have an RH of 60% and the ambient temperature is 28 deg C.

    So when you start your mist system..... you by some method using some magical forces be able to create a locally saturate atmosphere. An adiabatic condition was created whereby the change of water to vapour is possible.... thus the temperature fall. You read the temperature and it reads 22 deg c as it reaches the wet bulb temperature. the graph is correct.... you exclaimed. Happy like me..... you go and make your cup of coffee and smiling as you stir. You walk back to the misting system and you can feed the thermal comfort. Smiling and happy..... you sat down at your coffee table area and relax.

    When you finish your cup of coffee.... you realised it is no longer that cool already and you begin to feel humid. You look at the graph again and is puzzled..... what has happened. hehehe.... You take the temperature and it read 28 deg C. Banana.... why like that one.. Do you know why and are you experiencing such scenario?

    Quote
    Best water temperature for koi would be at 24 C.

    Comment
    Really ar? Mine is at 25 deg C. May I know your view on what is the best temperature for the nitrifying bacteria?

    Quote
    The nice thing about this hobby is that there are many ways of koi keeping.

    Comment
    Agreed.

    Quote
    My dilema in settling koi waste for longer period than necessary is for one it increases the bioload( more waste collected is like adding more kois) and two is that bad bacteria is easier to multiply than good bacteria.

    Comment
    Your system cannot achieved the filtration process in one pass? My system has a small contingency plan to control the bacteria population as a whole. Basically the bacteria are basically maintain in the filtration area. Do you believe in competitive survival?

    Quote
    Why is it that when a fish gets sick, dealers would recommend cleaning the filter and treating the pond with medicine.

    Comment
    ... may be he is suggesting for the sake of suggesting and then sell those medication..... to impress the end user?

    Quote
    Assuming your fish get sick and it is still not yet your scheduled flush of your settlement chamber, are you in agreement that you would still not clean your settlement chamber?

    Comment
    Technically speaking... yes. But I would quickly consult experience koi keepers what are the likely cause of the matter based on the symptoms I have observed.

    The method I have employed is put into practice for more than 1.5 years coming soon to 2 in fact. So there must be something else that cause it.....

    Quote
    How about you convince the other serious hobbyist with US$3600 tosai tategois and even more expensive bigger kois that they should stop changing water too much , stop flushing their mechanical settlement(vortex, brushes, cyclone, rdf, etc.) and instead JUST build a very efficient settlement device that will collect all the waste for months leaving the bio chamber in " pristine condition" to save on time, effort and water but just feed minimally twice or once a day to prevent too much buildup of waste too soon.

    Comment
    I see why you find my system unbelievable..... If you recall..... I cleaned my settling chamber on an automated system daily. The manner that it is cleaned is different only.

    I suspect i must have cleaned too much as my koi does not seem to be super hungry after the clean.

    I practice feed as much as they can eat..... hehehe..... super good growth so far. Even my koi dealer also ask what foods I feed.

    Quote
    I do not know where you get the impression that I am guilty of overfeeding. 400 grams per day.......

    Comment
    hehehe..... so our previous discussions has revolutionised you feeding regime?

    Bro.... you don't think your method of cleaning and massive water change to maintain TDS is against water stability ar?

    Cheers

  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi Bro Harryyew,

    Our previous discussion has nothing to do with the amount of feed I give to my kois at the moment. The amount and type is based on my personal objective, temperature, and of course cost. As of the moment I am using FD higrowth, FD gain and FD color for my all my gosanke and one shiro. Proportion and type would depend on what I want to achieve. Also what's the point of feeding more when enough growth and quality is being achieved already .right ?(from 35-40cm Jumbo gosanke tosais to 65-68cm in less than a year.)

    My frequency and method of cleaning and constant trickle of fresh water and use of massive aeration is to maintain my objective of a just a 10 to 15ppm TDS differential from fresh incoming water and to maintain water stability. PH is always stable rain or shine. Clarity even without Turning on the Uv or without using a sand filter is very good. Thin dark green wall algae populate the wall of the pond. My koi dont even notice theres a water change and will continue to feed. I know of other koi hobbyists who do regular flushing of settlement chamber with their updown filtration and regular water change(even more than I do) in a much lower stocking density and they are only able to get at close a 60 tds differential.

    24 C is 75F. 25 C is 77F. Really? How about lets just agree from 24C to 25C. The one degree cooler would provide a better quality skin and shine and still very good growth already while the 25C might give a slightly better growth. I rather go for the 24C all year if possible but 25C is quite good as well. Nitrifying bacteria optimal growth rate is from 25c to 30C. 90 percent growth rate at 24C is not bad at all as well.

    I dont understand what is hard to understand about the mist system. The spray nozzle fogs the area thereby cooling the surrounding air. The fans suck in the cooler higher humidty air and cools the trickle showers better. On hot dry days, the fans would suck in hot air instead.

    Are you saying in your system ALL the bacterias( good and bad) will just stays in the filter and will never ever pass into the pond? I am familiar with competitive survival of bacteria. Nitrifying bacteria reproduce only by binary division. Under optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas and nitrobacter only double in numbers while bad bacteria can easily outnumber the good bacteria if certain conditions exist. Too much bacterial growth good or bad will lower the Ph. Too low Ph and the good bacteria starts dying because they cannot reproduce. PH crash happens.

    If you say you clean your settlement chamber DAILY instead of building up the waste for months then we are on the same page after all.

    CHEERS!




    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-21 03:28:13 am
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    A major objection to the use of settling basins is that they require a large floor area, and square footage of floor area can be expensive. If this is a problem, the "footprint" of the settling basin can be decreased by adding obstructions inside of the settling basin to increase rates of settling. Tube settlers, also known as "settling decks", can be used to do this. The basic function of the settling deck (tube settlers) is shown above where the incoming flow is brought into the settling basin under the settling deck and forced to upflow to exit the chamber. In the process, solids settle within the tubes.
    Separation distance between the inclined surfaces is typically 5 cm (2 inches) with a total inclined length of 0.9 to 1.8 m (3 to 6 ft). Tube or plate plastic media are usually manufactured in structured bundles of tubes or stacks of parallel plates in a variety of opening shapes (square, rectangular, tubes, hexagonal, chevron). In operation, influent water flows into a tube or plate settler and then upward through the inclined tubes or plates as solids settle on the plastic surfaces. Generally the inclination of the tubes or plates is between 45°–60° above horizontal. This angle provides for the greatest degree of gravity self-cleaning of settled solids out of the media and into the basin bottom. A fairly broad range of hydraulic loading rates have been suggested in the literature, e.g., 1.5 m3/m2 per hr, 7.4 m3/m2 per hr, and 67 m3/m2 per hr. The disadvantage to the use of tube settlers is that tube or plate settlers do not adequately self-clean, so they must be periodically cleaned by other means to prevent biofouling.
    Once the tubes begin to fill with fine solids settling out of the water flow, the water velocity rates through the tubes will increase due to reduced tube cross sectional area. As this happens and resistance to flow increases, water begins to seek a least resistance approach and will eventually simply bypass the tubes, thereby eliminating any solids capture at all. Therefore, periodic cleaning is necessary, but cleaning the settling deck is a dirty, nasty job that nobody likes to do and as a result is often neglected. In turn, neglect leads to poor performance of the settling device and subsequent deterioration in water quality. For this reason, we do not recommend tube settlers for use in highly loaded systems.

    source:

    http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ista/ISTA7/RecircWorkshop/Workshop%20PP%20%20&%20Misc%20Papers%20Adobe%202006/5%20Solids%20Capture/Solids%20Control.pdf
  • d88koid88koi June 2013
    Posts: 13
    Bro HDCu and Bro Harryyew
    Thank you both for sharing your highly technical knowledge on filter system and water management, I really learned a lot from your frank info from this thread.
    It;s a dream for me to have a 20 ton pond ,and still dreaming ,when i can buy Rm 3600.00
    jumbo tosai and grow them with expensive FD food ,and attaining 60+ within a year.
    I ,perhaps n a few more newbabies will be "dying" to see some photos of your koi, tosai to nisai and Please enlighten us on how you select these kois that both of you are making "future" jumbos out of them.
    Thank you very much
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good Evening Bro TomyC, Bro HDCu and Bro d88koi

    To Bro TomyC

    Quote
    Please upload pictures of your venturi setup!

    Comment
    Took this this evening.....Pic as attached.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/13178/Venturi Ejector.jpg

    To Bro d88koi

    Glad that you find our discussions interesting.

    I believe one day you will eventually own a 20 ton pond. My not 20 ton pond.... half only. hehehe..... To buy the RM3600 is not the main challenge. The challenge is.... can one triple its price as the koi take its shape and growth it to its full potential. Anything beyond that is a bonus.

    In the beginning.... I also think the FD food will do miracle...... but later I find other reputable brands can also provide the koi with the development value. What andrewkoi said in the video above correlate well with my observations so far.

    hehehe.... according to my dealer...... mine is just sansai.

    On the selection of the koi..... I hopeless one..... I just make an educated guess and gut feeling and select. One thing for sure.... don't go to the fish shop and buy the RM15/koi and hope it will be a good bloodline. IMO....Identifying a friendly and helpful dealer is important.

    To Bro HDCu

    Quote
    As of the moment I am using FD higrowth, FD gain and FD color for my all my gosanke and one shiro. Proportion and type would depend on what I want to achieve. Also what's the point of feeding more when enough growth and quality is being achieved already .right ?(from 35-40cm Jumbo gosanke tosais to 65-68cm in less than a year.)

    Comment
    We reserve the food part in our future discussions.

    Quote
    My frequency and method of cleaning and constant trickle of fresh water and use of massive aeration is to maintain my objective of a just a 10 to 15ppm TDS differential from fresh incoming water and to maintain water stability.

    Comment
    Ok. Understood. ...... But what about the total suspended solids? May I know why is this not in your equation? Do you agreed they are different things? Tell me honestly did Erik system .....endless river flow resolve this part? hehehe....

    Quote
    Clarity even without Turning on the Uv or without using a sand filter is very good.

    Comment
    hmmm.... you can see the bottom of your pond clearly? Now if you don't mind.... place an underwater lighting in the pond at night and do you see float fine particulates? Mine clear clear.

    To achieve an NTU of 10, one need to have a deep sand filtration. Now if you read the whole article you have attached, you will realise that the small fines below 100 micron can only be effectively removed with such aid for example. Ok... you may said people defined clarity in a very different manner and sort of subjective too....... Your view?

    Quote
    I know of other koi hobbyists who do regular flushing of settlement chamber with their updown filtration and regular water change(even more than I do) in a much lower stocking density and they are only able to get at close a 60 tds differential.

    Comment
    So.... your technique can go below 60 TDS? Please share with us how you manage to control your cations and anions in the water?

    What I am puzzle is that.... you measure your TDS like there is no tomorrow and on the other hand when I asked you for specific conductance..... you shy away. Do you know that a TDS meter is based on conductivity and yet TDS and conductivity are not the same thing.

    Can you tell me what TDS meter brand you are using? The reason I am asking this is that TDS is calculated by converting the conductivity by a factor. Different brand use a different factor.

    Do you agree a TDS value of 500ppm is save for human consumption?

    The 60 tds differential (assuming they are nearby you and their source of water is the same as yours) are most likely due to their "pandai- pandai" of adding miracle water from the shop.... Sodium and chlorides are the main culprits of higher reading.No?

    You really believe your current mimic or hybrid Erick system has revolutionised your water purifications? Based on your reported TDS readings of less than 150ppm... it means your water is actually carbon filtration or mountain springs or aquifers derived?

    To me...The only explanation why you are reading low TDS value is mainly due to the lump of granular activated carbon you have been dumping into one of your chamber. Your friends did not. Do you know as to whether is there any harmful side effect if the continuous immersion of it will have on the health?

    Quote
    I dont understand what is hard to understand about the mist system. The spray nozzle fogs the area thereby cooling the surrounding air. The fans suck in the cooler higher humidty air and cools the trickle showers better. On hot dry days, the fans would suck in hot air instead.

    Comment
    You are employing "direct evaporating system" concept to lower the atmosphere temperature. This system is considered if the atmosphere RH is usually very low. like RH15 to say maybe RH30. As I understand from your earlier notes.... your area usually will have an average RH of around 60 or 70.

    Secondary.... when you pond area there has indeed reached locally saturated condition.... condensation will happen and I don't see you complaining about condensation damaging your fibre floor board. So... It is unlikely you have reach there. However, I did not asked. Can you tell us..... did you experience condensation?

    Now.... Initially when you start up the system....you will experience some thermal comfort as it basically saturate the atmosphere by increasing the RH and naturally the atmospheric temperature will drop towards the wet bulb temperature. It will reach there for a transient but .... as you continue to drive the misting and fog up the area..... technically your mix volume ration will rise. We don't measure this Mix volume ratio in practice....but you can read on the graph you are holding.... as it increases as more misting spray syiok syiok... it increases your RH and your wet bulb temperature has to rise along the curve line of the RH you are at to match the sensible temperature. Unless you have devices some sort of device with some sort of miracle forces that can draw this misted atmosphere away quickly to lower the RH back and allow the process to repeat......it is not an efficient way of cooling pond water.

    By the time you realised it..... you have discovered how air conditioning system work in its most simplify form. If you don't believe me... you can asked a HVAC engineer.

    Quote
    Are you saying in your system ALL the bacterias( good and bad) will just stays in the filter and will never ever pass into the pond?

    Comment
    Yes, technically every 6 hours, the whole pond volume is cleaned off but not the filtration chambers.

    It takes approximately a day for nitrifying bacteria to reproduce to double and only takes 30 mins for anerobic type to reprove. E-coli by then will be in the trillion. Interesting it is. So the technique is how to make sure the nitrifying bacteria dominate the whole filtration system right? hehehe.... like you said "condition" is the key word. How to make sure they don't die loh is the next key word we need to search, right? hehehe....

    Quote
    f you say you clean your settlement chamber DAILY instead of building up the waste for months then we are on the same page after all.

    Comment
    We are still not on the same page exactly...... you cleaned off the solids but not the suspended solids and reintroduced it into the pond and allow it to re-suspend and form a bigger mass and hope the brushes will catch it this time around. I cleaned off part of the solids (not completely) but I removed nearly 90% of the suspended solids at its water return point into the pond.

    Mine system addresses the total nitrate and total phosphorous but I am not sure about yours on the phosphorous. Please share how you are controlling the phosphorous from building up?


    From the article you have shared with us.....Now you can see the settling chamber is such an important aspect of the recirculation water system as a primary clarifier. Must get this right! You can see now that the tube settlers is a good consideration instead of pure settling basin. The brushes is not in the equation fit for mentioned in the study. Again they are too primitive and not efficient. I see many hobbyist ponds lack this good settling facility leading them having to be enslaved to the pond chores on a daily or biweekly basis to maintain an acceptable water purification for their inhabitants....... hehehe....

    I am working on an experiment and see whether this new proposed modification I have given more consideration will be able to achieve an even longer maintenance schedule. Will feedback accordingly.

    To me.... if someone has to clean his pond on a regularly basis.....It is a hobby. If someone start cleaning everything like the endless river flow thing on a DAILY basis and every little dirts or spot seen by examining it so critically as unclean...... I think they basically have "Obsession Compulsive Disorder" lah..... hehehe.....

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Harry,

    ERIC can be automated using electronic valves. Or for your case, if you want minimal maintenance, you can consider having a drum filter in your system. RDF's screen can filter <40microns.

    Venturi:
    Wow, I like the super fine air bubbles it's producing.
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    hahaha.....wah!!! you really like the Erik system. Yes... I believe so it can be incorporated but you would required 2 valves for each unit. Based on its discharge outlet position (facing downward right)..... one cannot have a simple contingency plan to be incorporated in case the valve failed in the future.

    Yes... true on the RDF..... but this type of filtration is noisy, high maintenance on its components, expensive and not aesthetic pleasing to look at leh....

    My current water management system will allow me to filter up to 20 microns without much mechanical parts involved.

    Cheers
  • grinkz01grinkz01 June 2013
    Posts: 530
    wow...very long discussion with many math....

    bro harry, how does tube settler works? is it because of pipe position degrees (60°) or else?
    i thought (before) splitting 1 big flow (from bd suction) into multiple rows of pipe will increase turbulence and speed inside pipes. if it is how debris can settled?

    ur settlement concept is very interesting to me. would liketo learn but pls no complex math...:-)
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I fail to see how flushing the whole chamber in an ERIC system in a daily basis is considered OCD. I do not inspect every bit of dirt that could have been left behind and worry something will happen to my koi. I have no need to check my PH, my ammonia levels, nitrite, nitrate as I am confident it stays the same nor do I worry about PH crash. I do not concern myself with trying to achieve GIN CLEAR water as it does not mean anything to the growth and quality and health of kois? I assure you that most major winners in kois shows in Japan are not even raised in super GIN CLEAR water.

    Does any suspended solids return to the pond coming from the filter?Probably maybe less than five percent since I dont care to polish my water using a high energy consumption pump to pass thru a sand filter. Does it bother me? Not at all. Does it bother the kois if I dont provide them with polished water? In fact, I even would like a month or two of green water to give to my kois.

    What about all those "crazy OCD" other hobbyist who employ multiple vortexes and multiple bead filters that gets flushed also on the daily basis to remove all the mechanical waste collected . Oh what about those who employ the rotary drum filters? I suppose in your point of view they are already have an extreme OCD problem already. Really?

    i agree that brushes maybe primitive( designed for koi ponds) but does it make it obsolete and really ineffective. Brushes employed correctly hardly gets blocked and to me very easy to clean by both flush and a little pressure wash.

    if I dont measure phosphorous readings unlike you do, its because I dont see the need to do so. Kindly tell me how many breeders ever measure phosphorous reading? How many koi hobbyist in world even consider measuring phosphorous readings?

    I do measure TDS( using Hanna Combo PH, TDS & EC model HI98129 with calibration certificate(paid separately) as my guide. I suppose if phosphorous is ever increasing wouldn't TDS also increase over time?

    Going back to the mist system, in summer when rains are scarce, my humidity reading reaches only 40 RH and night temperature only reaches 29C. This is period when my FATS does not work to my expectation as the surrounding air pushed by the fan is hot even at night.
    The mist principle works on the science that tiny water droplets (fog) quickly absorb the energy (heat) present in the environment and evaporate, becoming water vapor (gas). The energy (heat) used to change the water to a gas is eliminated from the environment, hence the air is cooled.  The fact on the matter 1 Gallon of water has the potential cooling of 8000 BTUs / hr.  I know its not perfect as there can be condensation( not really a problem on my part) but employing airconditioning outdoor is not an option. Chiller may probably lower the water temperature faster and lower but the trade off is higher energy cost.

    The cost of electricity here is quite prohibitive( we have the second most expensive electricity rates in Asia ). Running a chiller on a smaller pond maybe affordable but on a bigger setup the running cost is quite expensive already. Same goes with using higher energy water pumps 24 hours a day to power bead and sand filters. Water on the other hand is still relatively cheap at around US$0.35 a cubic or ton. ( although now cost are slowly creeping up.) Household help is still easy to get and the labor cost is still reasonable( all serious hobbyist here have household help that helps out in the maintainance of their ponds). There are very few bead filter or nexus users here as dealers themselves dont like using it and do not recommend. Sand filters? I dont know anyone here who does use it for their koi pond. Chillers are quite a new thing here but those with chiller setup have smaller ponds. Most still employ updown concrete chamber filter with brushes or multiple vortex to their 30 to 200 ton ponds. Bakki setups have recently sprung up with many serious koi hobbyist to take advantage of better aeration , better water quality and cooler water especially during cooler months of the year.

    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-22 11:55:59 am
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Harry, how do you chill your pond? Judging by your algae growth, it seems to be pretty low temp, <26degC.
    Or it could be simply because there's so much nitrate in your pond, the algae loves it so much.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-22 01:29:38 am
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good Bro grinkz01, Bro HDcu and Bro TomyC


    To Bro grinkz01

    Ok. Page 8 of this thread.... Bro HDCu has extracted a portion out of an article where they are comparing various type of settling methods that fish farming are using.

    Quote
    i thought (before) splitting 1 big flow (from bd suction) into multiple rows of pipe will increase turbulence and speed inside pipes.

    Comment
    It will slow down the velocity of flow.... for a given incoming volume of water it will share through out the pipes. The flowrate is not changed as the continuity of flow rate (discharge) must be maintained in simple term. This can only happen if the flow is in a laminar condition as the flow is considered flowing in a steady state condition.

    It basically is taking advantage of the available vertical space to increase the surface area to promote settling.

    To Bro TomyC

    Quote

    Harry, how do you chill your pond? Judging by your algae growth, it seems to be pretty low temp, <26degC.......Or it could be simply because there's so much nitrate in your pond, the algae loves it so much.

    Comment
    I used a chiller to cool the water.

    You are referring to the green stuffs you are seeing at the top of the pic...right? Well.... that green smudge of green you are seeing are just refection of the potted plant green leaves. Carpet of algae does grow on the wall and floor and they are carpet like. It has been like that after 3 months after I start up the pond.


    To Bro HDCu

    Quote
    I have no need to check my PH, my ammonia levels, nitrite, nitrate......

    Comment
    So your claims become unverified lah....

    Quote
    I do not concern myself with trying to achieve GIN CLEAR water as it does not mean anything to the growth and quality and health of kois?

    Comment
    ok... subjective matter. But would you agree that having a gin clear water does enhance the visual experience one can experience when viewing his/her koi especially at night with underwater lighting?

    Quote
    Does it bother me?

    Comment
    The fact remains you are overly concern with the organic matters and the pH crash thing and the daily cleaning you are executing to control those undesirable elements from building up. You will recall you even pressure hose off the algae as it stuck to the bushes. You introduce the polyester filter cloth to trap those invisible fines that you believe are suspended in the water and etc......

    Quote
    What about all those "crazy OCD" other hobbyist who employ multiple vortexes and multiple bead filters that gets flushed also on the daily basis to remove all the mechanical waste collected . Oh what about those who employ the rotary drum filters? I suppose in your point of view they are already have an extreme OCD problem already. Really?

    Comment
    hehe...... No these people are not having OCD as they have accepted the limitation of each system they are using. They have actually chosen a system in their belief that is befitting for a known inflow effluents. They don't start cleaning their other components of their filtration system DAILY. They live with regular maintenance schedule. Again not on a daily basis. Once the system are running they don't go and physically inspect and clean like those users using the Erik or its modification thereof.

    Quote
    Brushes employed correctly hardly gets blocked and to me very easy to clean by both flush and a little pressure wash.

    Comment
    Does yours get blocked on a daily basis? Everything are easy to clean as long as there is a will to clean. I question the necessity for a good filtration system to warrant a daily cleaning.

    Quote
    Kindly tell me how many breeders ever measure phosphorous reading? How many koi hobbyist in world even consider measuring phosphorous readings?

    Comment
    This one I don't know and I also don't know whether they have the equipment to measure it. But but..... according to the article you have linked..... it is an important element in solid waste management to treat. So.... is selective treatment a better treatment after all......

    Quote
    I do measure TDS( using Hanna Combo PH, TDS & EC model HI98129....

    Comment
    Thanks for sharing with us. So you set the TDS conversion factor to....? Do you think the TDS reading can be affected with varying depth of the pond? Do you calibrate it on a monthly basis with the solution they sell separately?

    In my opinion you dont want a meter that requires NO calibration, how would you ever know if it was off?

    Quote
    I suppose if phosphorous is ever increasing wouldn't TDS also increase over time?

    Comment
    hehehe...... this TDS tester appears to a universal equipment that can correlate with all sort of other measurements.....

    When there are too much of phosphorus in the water.... it just speed up eutrophication. The water properties will then experience a reduction of DO in water bodies... usually caused by an increase of mineral and organic nutrients. A sign of this is when excess algae (I repeat excess algae) in the pond. I recall you are experiencing algae got stuck to your brushes wherein you need to pressure hose it off. Mine... no algae lah on the settling chamber. Don't know..... I would conclude it is likely in a matter of time soon for you to experience a mild eutrophication if continue unchecked.....

    Quote
    Going back to the mist system, in summer when rains are scarce, my humidity reading reaches only 40 RH and night temperature only reaches 29C. This is period when my FATS does not work to my expectation as the surrounding air pushed by the fan is hot even at night.

    Comment
    Bro.... it should be the other way round lah.... you need to have low low RH in order for direct evaporation system to work efficiently. Desert areas sell like hot cakes bro.... This FATS thing has confused you IMO. Please revisit our earlier notes discussed.... you will find the answer why it is not working to your expectation.....

    Quote
    The fact on the matter 1 Gallon of water has the potential cooling of 8000 BTUs / hr.

    Comment
    So.... in your system...... where is your energy obtained or derived from to cause a change in state to happen to utilise this 800BTUs/hr? Are you experimenting with some sort of cooling tower design concept as in FATS system?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi Bro Harry,

    I do have TDS regent of which I use on a monthly basis to test its accuracy. I do also have another one (different model) at work which is used in laboratory to counter check which I sometimes borrow to compare. I do not have doubt to the accuracy of my TDS readings.

    The reason why I employ FATS is draw in atmospheric air to cool water in the trickle. The position of my house and my pond and the height of my shower does not allow much air to cool the trickle shower optimally. The use of fans to force air like in cooling tower design is something I experimented last year and gathered enough data to convince me that the benefits outweights the disadvatages as far as I am concerned. The mist system is a different setup but related somewhat to the FATS with the final objective of lowering to a certain degree(one degree if possible) the pond water especially during hot dry summer season. Unfortunately, the unit came in delayed and rainy season has set in, my water temperature has gone down. Testing the efficiency of a mist system in rainy season is for now a hit and miss and gathering data is rather inconsistent. No point putting it on when its always raining as data would be skewed. Like I said, its in early stage and I would not want others copying it either. If it fails to my expectation in the next summer, I dont loose much sleep because It does cool the air going into the house anyway.

    Phosphorous level is a dissolve mineral so I suppose the higher the phosphorous, the higher the TDS would be. Am I right? If I am controlling my TDS thru my filtration system, maintenace of the system and consistent daily water change, how is phosporous level going to keep on increasing that would lower the DO capability of my water that is heavily aerated. Since you do not have the opportunity for now to ask reputable Japanese breeders about whats their phosporous readings in their mudpond or indoor growing or holding ponds, I will ask them in your behalf. And if they answer in the negative, I will tell them their ignorance makes them ignorant in the koi hobby. Seriously? Like me, they are not even concern with having gin clear water so that you can use an underwater lighting and see the koi floats in " air". I dont even like using underwater lights or side glass in my pond or future future pond build and would not recommend the installation of these in a koi pond to anyone.

    Regular maintenance of all filtration system is the key to koi keeping and maintaning a healthy water. There are hobbyist who flush their bead filter twice a day. There are Hobbyist who set up their RDF to automatically clean the screens every thirty minutes. There are hobbyist who flush their settlement chambers or vortexes daily. And there hobbyist who ask their househelp to clean the brushes and dump the water in the chamber for ten minutes a day. Tell me how they are doing regular maintenance but just not on a daily basis as compared to me.

    As I told you before I do not have concerns with PH crash or do not have the need to employ oysters or sodium bicarbonate or any minerals for that matter because I follow my maintenance schedule and constant trickle of water rain or shine. I introduced the filter cloth on top of the first layer of the trickle as the media that I am using would perform more efficiently for a much longer time. I have said it before the media performs very well but has limitations and these limitation has to be address according to the manufacturer.

    With regards to testing ammonia, nitrite, And nitrate, I used to test weekly when I started the new pond and to gather data with my experiment on a fishless cycle. And you are right that I should test it again. And so I did. And results are still boringly the same unfortunately.

    I leave you and others who have been silently following this thread with the Quotes from the article I have provided with regards to the concept of solid waste management in a recirculating aquaculture system."

    "Suspended solids adversely impact all aspects of a recirculating aquaculture system (RAS), so the first objective of any recirculating treatment scheme is the removal of solid wastes. Suspended solids are the result of feces, biofloc (dead and living bacteria), and uneaten food. These suspended particles will vary greatly in size from the cm size to the micron (μm) size.
    It cannot be overemphasize the importance of rapid and complete solids removal from the culture vessel. All other unit processes will fail if this primary function is poorly performed."








    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-22 02:48:10 pm
  • TomyCTomyC June 2013
    Posts: 103
    Harry,

    Since you are so concerned about aesthetics, do you hide your chiller underground too? How do you do it? Is there sufficient ventilation?

    --
    Ozone:
    Good stuff in low quantity that is beneficial for pond.
    http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/fisheries/aquaculture/publications/water-quality-management/ozone-in-recirculating-aquaculture-systems

    http://www.n-ion.com/e/lenard-effect-01.html

    Which explains the benefits of having a waterfall, a shower of some sort, and I guess misting.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2013-06-22 05:38:02 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro HDCu and Bro TomyC

    hehehe.....ok. I got both of you stimulated......

    To Bro TomyC

    Quote
    Since you are so concerned about aesthetics, do you hide your chiller underground too? How do you do it? Is there sufficient ventilation?

    Comment
    hehehe....Unfortunately, I have not found a way yet. It is at grade and have it custom made to my specification and powder coated to a colour that blend well in my little garden. I used plants to screen it off nicely. My friends who visited me....did not even notice it. So I supposed I have succeeded to screen it.

    I was reading an article and it said.... koi ponds seen in Japanese gardens are not the same as ordinary backyard water features. They are carefully crafted works of art, and they present some special engineering challenges that aren't seen in most ordinary koi ponds.

    For one thing, aesthetics play an EXTREMELY large role, and the appearance of the pond itself is usually more important than the fish swimming in it. A pond's shape, position, edging materials, and construction techniques are all finely tuned to create the desired scenic effect and of course a sensory aesthetic that goes with it.

    Have you ever ponder what is a pond life.......My view is that it is the components of the koi pond, the plants and not the FISH. The fishes are just inhabitants. Many of us are actually building a fish display pond and a fish display pond equates to be like an indoor aquarium in reality. hehehe....

    We all like to appreciate the sensory, structural and scalar aesthetic of our koi......likewise I believe its environment must match it too and provide the best visual experience and setting for one enjoyment. If for show off only..... might as well built one just like the big tank in the koi dealer premises..... an imposing big tank with the koi in full display. hehehe.....

    To Bro HDCu

    Quote
    If it fails to my expectation in the next summer, I dont loose much sleep because It does cool the air going into the house anyway.

    Comment
    I started off just like you and then later I discovered the 3 laws of thermodynamic. I gave up after I understood the laws. Ok..... I know you like to trial and error..... a revolutionary thinker. Please keep us posted on the development.

    Quote
    Phosphorous level is a dissolve mineral so I suppose the higher the phosphorous, the higher the TDS would be. Am I right? Since you do not have the opportunity for now to ask reputable Japanese breeders about whats their phosporous readings in their mudpond or indoor growing or holding ponds, I will ask them in your behalf. And if they answer in the negative, I will tell them their ignorance makes them ignorant in the koi hobby. Seriously?

    Comment
    You will agree that phosphorous is an essential element and needed by all living things. Now..... when we loosely relate phosphorous to phosphates....we are actually saying phosphates...PO4..... . Phosphates are formed from phosphorous. Do not expect to find a high phosphate reading if algae is already blooming in your pond as the phosphates will be in the algae, not in the water. If your pond have no algae at all then there is no phosphate in your pond as algae cannot bloom just purely on nitrates present. Agreed or still disagreed?

    The question you should pose to the japanese koi breeders is whether do they check for organic phosphate concentration before discharging it into their water stream or to their endless river flow. If they said no.... ask them how on earth they managed to get away from their National and prefectural governments control water pollution regulations and in particular their very own Water Pollution Control Law enacted in 1971. Remember to mention my name..... hehehe.....

    Quote
    Regular maintenance of all filtration system is the key to koi keeping and maintaning a healthy water.

    Comment
    Agreed.

    Quote
    There are hobbyist who flush their bead filter twice a day. There are Hobbyist who set up their RDF to automatically clean the screens every thirty minutes. There are hobbyist who flush their settlement chambers or vortexes daily. And there hobbyist who ask their househelp to clean the brushes and dump the water in the chamber for ten minutes a day. Tell me how they are doing regular maintenance but just not on a daily basis as compared to me.

    Comment
    They do not believe in the following:
    1) there is a lot more manual works than mere design and technical calculations.
    2) An incomplete design which does not take other people viewpoint into consideration is not a recipe for trouble.
    3)A solution need not be close to optimum to start with, as retrospective fixes are wholly satisfactory and acceptable.

    Many pond-keepers have actually become a permanent enslaved filter keeper….hehehe….

    In the heart and soul of koi keeping... I believe we need to have a good appreciation to the nitrogen cycle, water stability and the ways we can employed to achieve the first two.

    In any body of water containing koi, plant life or any sort of organic materials...... the biological process cleans the water of toxins produced directly or indirectly by the fish and/or plants themselves, or by the decomposition of any organic materials.

    In reality we cannot change and ignore that koi are actually living in the own toilets and the Nitrogen cycle is the cleaning service supplied by Mother Nature to eliminate these wastes.

    The discussions have impressed upon me as thought this mother nature thing we are referring to cannot do the works effectively and required daily human interference to help the cleaning process. That is only required if the components of the pond have not been designed and constructed properly lah. We size our filter based on the 4% ammonia load generated from the feed load and that is a conservative value IMO. Of course.... if one start to overfeed beyond the filtration design capacity can handle.... surely need the daily cleaning loh.

    Put it another way.... if we are so efficient and "Sing Kah Ling Gum" to clean off all those waste..... How the bacteria are going to find their foods?

    If the settling chamber can remove the solid waste and the suspended solids well..... the biological filter parts will not choke up overnight and affect the flow. It is only when the 1st defence is weak..... we start to go "kelam kaput" and start cleaning the filter mats as well on a daily basis. If we start to wash the filter materials on a daily basis..... are we not washing the good bacteria that have adhere well to it? You must also understand that these bacteria take a period of weeks to colonize to the point where they are eating all the Ammonia produced. Without plants....Many people do water change simply to bring in fresh water and dilute the Nitrate concentration.


    There is saying.....

    The more you shake a tree, the more leaves it will falls.
    The more you shake your legs the more money you have will go away.


    Cheers

  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Good morning Bro Harry,

    "The question you should pose to the japanese koi breeders is whether do they check for organic phosphate concentration before discharging it into their water stream or to their endless river flow. If they said no.... ask them how on earth they managed to get away from their National and prefectural governments control water pollution regulations and in particular their very own Water Pollution Control Law enacted in 1971. Remember to mention my name..... hehehe..... "

    In Nigaata and certain parts of Hiroshima, you will find loads of "rejected kois, And lots of Magois swimming/released accidentally or intentionally in the riverbanks. A lot of these perish because of the harsh winter but a lot do still survive. I would not be surprise if there are enterprising Japanese who are harvesting these and making money. Interestingly a lot of smaller farms indiscriminately dump their water( daily in most cases as water is free) without having the need for the waste water( including those laced with organophosphate) to be treated. The bigger farms who gets more targetted by agencies employ " buy all your neighbors property so nobody complains" method. The fact of the matter is that the koi industry in Japan is a multibillion dollar industry. However a lot of japanese koi farms are just mom and pop operations for generations.

    "Many pond-keepers have actually become a permanent enslaved filter keeper….hehehe…. "

    Kois are pets. Any pet owner has responsibility. The degree of responsibility is different depending on one person looks at it. Example If you are a serious dog show enthusiast, you are going to spend more time, effort and money not only in acquiring quality dogs but in maintenance as well. Some look at it as being enslaved to their dog, on the other hand they do not. Likewise, you may be spending more money on electricity for your kois since you employ chillers, higher wattage pumps, underwater lights, UVs, etc. I maybe spending more on feed bills and labor cost. To those who are not in this hobby or those who are not really into serious koi collecting, we would be considered both ridiculous. I guess what im trying to impress is that in this hobby it is to each his own because every koi hobbyist has their reasons.

    "In the heart and soul of koi keeping... I believe we need to have a good appreciation to the nitrogen cycle, water stability and the ways we can employed to achieve the first two. "

    I agree definitely. And I hope we are able to impart this to newcomers in this hobby although our methods in accomplishing it may be different.

    "In any body of water containing koi, plant life or any sort of organic materials...... the biological process cleans the water of toxins produced directly or indirectly by the fish and/or plants themselves, or by the decomposition of any organic materials. "

    I agree. But in a recirculating water system where stocking levels and feed rates are in relation to the body of water and most especially in ornamental kois where not only growth rates but skin quality is necessary, the introduction of fresh water has always been advocated simply because not all toxins, phermones or hormones can be removed by any system as of yet. Meanwhile in Japanese mudponds, there is no filtration but the stocking levels are of ridiculously low numbers while the water is dumped after the harvest and growing season is done. The fact of the matter is that Nishikigois cannot survive in mother nature( leave it in great lakes and the quality and genetics will die in a few years).


    "The discussions have impressed upon me as thought this mother nature thing we are referring to cannot do the works effectively and required daily human interference to help the cleaning process. That is only required if the components of the pond have not been designed and constructed properly lah. We size our filter based on the 4% ammonia load generated from the feed load and that is a conservative value IMO. Of course.... if one start to overfeed beyond the filtration design capacity can handle.... surely need the daily cleaning loh. "

    Same answer as above. But I would like to add that even without daily cleaning my filter system is still adequate. 4 percent of the feed load only? What about the collected koi feces? are they not considered bioload as well? Doesnt more feces release more ammonia? If I base solely on the surface area of my mats for just 4 percent ammonia load of the feed and plus the ammonia release by the kois that continue to grow in size while collecting more and more feces in the efficient settlement chamber, is that enough?

    "Put it another way.... if we are so efficient and "Sing Kah Ling Gum" to clean off all those waste..... How the bacteria are going to find their foods? "

    One needs to understand the different types of bacteria first. Nitrifying bacteria live and die continously and multiply based on the amount of ammonia and nitrite in the pond. They cannot demineralize the waste as this can be accomplish by certain bacteria that I also employ everyday. Even if you remove all the solid waste, as long as you have kois, small snails, midget flies, fallen leaves, etc. there will be ammonia source and with ammonia, there will be nitrite and with nitrite there will be nitrates. I have proven this in the fishless cycle method where the source of "food" was only ammonia water to initiate the growth of nitrifying bacteria. . Flushing the mechanical waste daily does not wash or kill immediately the nitrifying bacteria as my media is not really made to dry out. Japanese matts are designed to absorb some water. I do not pressure wash my filter mats as there is no need to as the heavy aeartion and constant flush keeps it clean. In the bimonthly period that I raise the filter mats( this is IMHO considered the inherent weakness of the ERIC system, although in the new ERIC designs a small raised gap is now provided to flush away more efficiently the waste at the bottom without the need much to lift the mats. Inert "sand" is also produce at the bottom. The science and why it is being produce is being studied by P. waddington)), it is to wash away the bottom spot clean and remove the small snails that collects. There is no sticky foul smelling sludge as such pressure washing it is a breeze. I may have killed off some nitrifying bacteria on the surface walls but it does not really matter as the percentage of surface area I have cleaned off is too small to cause any significant bump in ammonia or nitrite levels. The biofilters are kept "brand new" always. As all mechanical waste including in the bio are flushed away anyways, the bioload is then limited to just the number of kois, a few hundred micro snails that like to take up residency in the filter chamber and a few midget flies. Heterotrophic bacteria population are checked as well. With less need for bacteria because of a lower bioload, bacteria blooms are prevented, Ph remains more stable. The buildup of nitrates are slower as well as there is less ammonia for the bacterias to convert. This is entirely different from method employed whereby waste are continously collected in settlement chambers, some very effective some not quite. In the settlement where there is inadequate collection, more small waste will settle in the filter matts and you will see brown staining. As more and more waste are collected in the filter mats other bacteria colonies begin to colonize it making the more efficient nitrifying bacteria work harder. It comes to a point that water parameters does not become that good anymore that the kois would tell already. In the meantime, as the bioload keeps on increasing so does the bacterial population and acid levels in the pond. Now the hobbyist puts on his cleaning hats and begins to wash his filter mats. As he wash away he removes more the little remaining nitrifying bacteria left. He puts back his filter mats after several hours of intense cleaning. He then resumes feeding. He then complains to the dealer asking why his kois are listless( due to sudden change in Ph, unintentional release of bad bacteria, chlorine problem because of sudden water change, and probably also the lack of good bacterai to remove enough ammonia and nitrites) He consults his dealer or friends who asks him questions, suggest some salting, to stop feeding and recommending bacteria starter as the good bacteria have all been killed. The hobbyist erroneously concludes then that its very dangerous to wash the filter. The cycle repeats itself after a few months. He could have broken the cycle by making sure like whst you are doing that mats stay clean longer and if possible always or he could have just religiously flush away the mechanical waste before it disintegrates and gets captured in the filter mats or better yet make multiple chamber of mats but just not clean every mats a the same time. The latter choice seemed becomes the most logical answer as all he knows is that cleaning all the mats kills off the good bacteria. He also become wise enough to feed his kois for the recommended five minute time period only and more than that would be considered overfeeding. He consigns to the notion that his kois are not really the fast growers and cannot grow bulky. Male kois are even worst. His admits his filter is just " too small" to cope up with heavy feeding or high stocking rates.

    "If the settling chamber can remove the solid waste and the suspended solids well..... the biological filter parts will not choke up overnight and affect the flow. It is only when the 1st defence is weak..... we start to go "kelam kaput" and start cleaning the filter mats as well on a daily basis. If we start to wash the filter materials on a daily basis..... are we not washing the good bacteria that have adhere well to it? You must also understand that these bacteria take a period of weeks to colonize to the point where they are eating all the Ammonia produced. Without plants....Many people do water change simply to bring in fresh water and dilute the Nitrate concentration. "

    same answer as above.

    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-23 09:15:41 am
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro d88koi,

    So sorry for the delay. Here is an example of a tosai picure of a Marudo Kohaku taken one year ago
    .
    <a href="http://s1070.photobucket.com/albums/u499/sacicu/?action=view¤t=1f58f9a644efd66655f19684949c18fd.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u499/sacicu/1f58f9a644efd66655f19684949c18fd.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

    Here is a recent video taken using an ipad. You can find her here. She has not finished yet and will not be ready for koi show for another year. I have sold off three kohakus lately with two of them major show winners. There are still two show kois left in the video though.
    If you would look at the video, you will see the black hose that connects the airhose diffuser at the bottom of the six feet pond to show you the degree of clarity. Its not "gin clear" but I am very satisfied with regards to the clarity. Also try to notice thats I have intentionally blocked the surface skimmer(in this case overnight) to purposely check the amount of foams( dissolved organic compounds) floating on the surface of the water. The video was taken without any aeration or shower filter shut off.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J36yRUTCork&feature=youtube_gdata_player
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-23 01:23:22 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good Evening Bro HDCu

    Quote
    Kois are pets.

    Comment
    hehehe,,,, May i ask.....do you name them?

    I think responsibility and enslave are totally different animals. In simple term.... one has control over while the other totally no control. Nevertheless... I like your comparison between one thing and another..... it is also like the endless river flow. hehehe.....

    Quote
    I agree. But in a recirculating water system where stocking levels and feed rates are in relation to the body of water and most especially in ornamental kois where not only growth rates but skin quality is necessary, the introduction of fresh water has always been advocated simply because not all toxins, phermones or hormones can be removed by any system as of yet.

    Comment
    Is there any evidence that the daily introduction of fresh water will enhanced the skin quality? What other toxins, phermones or hormones have you discovered? I would like to know.

    I think it should be like this..... Mother Nature provides us with a simple process that is effective and self explanatory and then came along man who think that he understands mother nature better and start manipulating it into bad.....after a few more trials... it turn worst.

    Quote
    The fact of the matter is that Nishikigois cannot survive in mother nature( leave it in great lakes and the quality and genetics will die in a few years.

    Comment
    I don't think it needs a few years bro..... it is a matter of days and may be in minutes especially if they are the rare after sought gosnake......hehehe..

    Quote
    But I would like to add that even without daily cleaning my filter system is still adequate. 4 percent of the feed load only? What about the collected koi feces? are they not considered bioload as well? Doesnt more feces release more ammonia? If I base solely on the surface area of my mats for just 4 percent ammonia load of the feed and plus the ammonia release by the kois that continue to grow in size while collecting more and more feces in the efficient settlement chamber, is that enough?

    Comment
    No.... I don't think so you have provided adequate. Why so many foams??? I try not to go into it.... but I know you will not be satisfied if we don't touch on the FCR thing. So...... please allow me to elaborate further.....

    You will agree our Koi make ammonia from the food they eat. We provide food to them because they need protein in their diet. Protein contains amino acids. Amino acids are compound based on ammonia and contain the atomic Nitrogen in it. When the koi digest the food and metabolised the protein... it is turns into nitrogenous excretion via respiration, urine, faeces and partially uneaten food remain.

    Warning: More Math coming..... hehehe....

    All food contain a certain amount of protein. The percentage can vary from brand to brand. let say..... you have now discovered FD brand containing 40% protein. The nitrogen content of protein in the koi food should be around 15% (variation from 13% to 20% possible). You can google for Kjeldahl Analytical method on how this nitrogen content is determined.

    let say.... you feed 800 grams FD food now.

    We can calculate the weight of atomic Nitrogen going into the water simply by multiplying 800 grams x 40% x 15% = 48 grams of N.

    Now...Nitrification (aerobic process);
    NH4+ + 1.5 O2 => NO2- + H+ + H2O (by Nitrosomonas bacteria)

    NO2- + 0.5 O2 => NO3- (by Nitrobacter bacteria)

    Total equation: NH4+ + 2 O2 => NO3- + H+ + H2O

    1 mol NH4 = 18g (molecular weight, 14+ 1 x 4)
    1 mol NO2 = 46g (molecular weight, 14 + 2 x 16)

    Therefore for every 48 grams of N, you will introduce 48g/14g x 18g =62 grams of ammonium ion.

    It will in turn generates 158 grams of nitrite.

    Now... for every m2 of Jmat.... it can colonise nitrifying bacteria to process 0.2 grams of total ammonia and 0.5 gram of nitrite. This mean you will required 310 m2 of Jmats.

    Do you have that amount of Jmats surface area provided? No.... right..... Is that one of the reason you begin to pull and push the standpipes on a daily basis?

    Now you must be wondering if what I have presented now make sense..... why did I used 4% (instead of 8% as it work out now) of ammonia load generated from the food load and then I "Sing Kah Ling Kum" put a factor of safety for 1.5 in the calculation.... hehehe...... Do you know why?

    Quote
    Even if you remove all the solid waste, as long as you have kois, small snails, midget flies, fallen leaves, etc. there will be ammonia source and with ammonia, there will be nitrite and with nitrite there will be nitrates. I have proven this in the fishless cycle method where the source of "food" was only ammonia water to initiate the growth of nitrifying bacteria. . Flushing the mechanical waste daily does not wash or kill immediately the nitrifying bacteria as my media is not really made to dry out. Japanese matts are designed to absorb some water. I do not pressure wash my filter mats as there is no need to as the heavy aeartion and constant flush keeps it clean.

    Comment
    It defies the mathematical expression of nitrification process bro..... How long it takes your to complete the nitrogen cycle. FYI.... I took 10 days with my new koi all in one go into the pond. No test fish required.

    So back to my question..... How the bacteria are going to find their foods? So go and google how freshwater aquatic live form do their business...... hehehe... It is not what you perceived.

    Quote
    Inert "sand" is also produce at the bottom. The science and why it is being produce is being studied by P. waddington

    Comment
    Has he found the answer to it by now?

    You can also tell him, I have discovered it already......it was after all the leftover from the wash down cement sand floor screeding that has accumulated in the BD drains that the contractor don't know how to remove it out because of his elevated ERIK tank. If you happen to know the owner of this phenomenon.... please check whether my assertion.... correct or not.

    Quote
    I may have killed off some nitrifying bacteria on the surface walls but it does not really matter as the percentage of surface area I have cleaned off is too small to cause any significant bump in ammonia or nitrite levels.

    Comment
    The fact remain it is a destructive and barbaric way of cleaning the good bacteria away loh....

    You test your ammonia using Nessler kit or Salicylate based test kit?

    Quote
    ...........a few hundred micro snails that like to take up residency in the filter chamber and a few midget flies. Heterotrophic bacteria population are checked as well.

    Comment
    Now.... I am confused. How the snails and midget flies can take residency when you cleaned it DAILY?

    Not too sure the heterotrophic bacteria will be checked as assume as they now have equal opportunity to populate........ they are no longer in competition.

    Quote
    small waste will settle in the filter matts and you will see brown staining.

    Comment
    hehehe..... you have ignored the video I have uploaded which show not only also got staining but got immature insect of some kind......

    Quote
    He consults his dealer or friends who asks him questions, suggest some salting, to stop feeding and recommending bacteria starter as the good bacteria have all been killed.

    Comment
    Talking about salting..... how do we determine the appropriate amount of salting?

    Quote
    The hobbyist erroneously concludes then that its very dangerous to wash the filter.The cycle repeats itself after a few months. He could have broken the cycle by making sure like whst you are doing that mats stay clean longer and if possible always or he could have just religiously flush away the mechanical waste before it disintegrates and gets captured in the filter mats or better yet make multiple chamber of mats but just not clean every mats a the same time.

    Comment
    Not necessary lah..... Bro.... you must understand the nitrogen cycle and also the carbon cycle leh. In layman term.... water stability.... don't over wash unnecessary..... just like your new coat you have it special tailor made with that fine fabric.... if your maid wash it daily......what will happen? Just like your new car just brought recently.... everyday sent to the carwash for snow wash..... what will happen to the paint work?


    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Good Evening Bro Harry,

    Believe it or not a lot of koi hobbyist do name their kois. I have given named a few myself( especially the show kois that have already won) Most grandchampions now have given names by their owners. Famous breeders give names to their oyagois. Responsibility vs enslave? Hmmm tough call. I hope our HM think doing household chores daily is a responsibility rather some kind of an enslavement or else we are both in BIG trouble. haha!

    Recirculating water system is Man made and never meant to copy mother nature. There is nothing in mother nature about concrete pond, use of bottom drain, chiller, sand filters, tube settlers, venturi, tube settlers, etc. Man made mudponds and Ponds and all kinds filtration, including nishikigois are all man made. I doubt you'll get a grandchampion that has been raised by mother nature.

    Is there evidence that skin quality is enhanced by water change? The topic of skin quality is a complex one as it involves a lot of factors such as genetics, temperature, stress, water quality, type of feed, degree of sunlight, etc. I have seen kois transfered from crystal clear ponds to green ponds and skin quality and shine greatly improved. I have seen some kois transfered from very soft water to sudden hard water and the skin quality deteriorated while other kois did not get affected. I have also seen skin quality of some but not all kois deteriorate in systems where there is very little water change. I do have notice in my years in the hobby some but not all kois beni become thinner with massive water change as compared to just continuous trickle of water. Whether this involves stress, sudden change in ORP, PH, minerals or others is something I hope an expert can give more insight.

    With regards to the micro snails, I really have no idea how it got into my filter. There was already small snails when I was doing a fishless cycle even without any waste. I suspect even before water was added, some micro snails took up residency inside the drainage pipes. The snails cannot be easily flushed by just backwash. They stick on the walls. Needs to power spray. I can kill all of them by applying medicine but their population does not really explode and besides in the event they fall inside the pond it a good protein source for the kois. The very few midge flies are not really a problem. In rainy season, there are no midge flies.

    Why so many foaming? All I see is just is a few bubbles considering the surface skimmer was shut down for 12 hours, I employ a 40,000 liter per hour trickle shower continuously, multiples of airhose in the pond and in the filter powered by several airpumps. If i throw in the floating koi food the small foam disappears. If I activate the surface skimmer, all these small foam disappear in seconds.

    Fishless cycle defies the mathematical expression of nitrification process bro? How so? Fishless cycle is not new. I have successfully applied it and I can apply it again. Is it the fastest method, maybe not but it still works to build up a enough nitrifying bacteria even without the presence of any kois. In my opinion if I would do it again, I would add sodium nitrite first then ammonia to do a reverse cycling that would even speed up more the nitrification process.

    How do we determine the appropriate amount of salting? Dealer would recommend from 1 kg upto 5kg per ton of water or use the appropriate salinity meter if one has to be more accurate.

    I dont understand how you still fail to get the concept that the ERIC system works. If I am killing all the bacteria in the filter and constantly stressing my kois everyday with this system with this constant flushing that seem to somehow irritate you , believe me I would not keep and grow my expensive show kois in this pond a minute! Trust me, it works for me and I am happy with the results like your system works for you and you are also happy with your results of which I deeply respect. Again, to each his own koi keeping skills.

    Btw, where did you get the idea that every one square meter of japanese mat can only process 0.2 of ammonia and 0.5 grams of nitrite. One 4x8 foot of the green Japanese mat has a surface area of 220 m2. I have ten mats in place for a total of 2200m2. One liter of Siporax has an effective surface area of 270m2. I have in place a total of 80 liter in my showers thereby I also have an additional 21,600m2. Assuming that nitrifying bacteria will not grow on the pond walls, pipes, filters walls which is impossible, I already have a total surface area of 23,800 m2. Double that since I have a turnover of two times an hour and I get like 47,600 m2 . Can you explain to me how this much surface area with a faster turnover is still lacking and therefore will result in continuous buildup of ammonia and nitrite thereby putting ten kois in a 22 ton setup fed with high quality feeds with lacto baccilus bacteria added in danger if no daily flushing was accomplished.

    Sand buildup from concrete? What about those with professional glass fiber installed but still generate the sand.?

    Cheers
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-24 01:53:21 pm
  • d88koid88koi June 2013
    Posts: 13
    Hi Bro HDCu
    Thanks for showing us a video of your koi, they are well fed and have good body .I have also noticed one showa with a little heavy bottom and as expected not all koi have the same hi
    intensity,some lighter and some more intense, probably due to age and variety,maybe bloodline,as I have notice from my own koi, is it the food ?, I dont have expensive koi
    and I only feed them cheaper jap brand , How many koi do you have and your pond size ?
    Cheers and have a good day
  • frostbitezfrostbitez June 2013
    Posts: 109
    funny debate here...just read few sections
    :-D

    @bro harry
    are bakkis really dont lower down temp? because mine(outdoor) sure do the job, tried it and prove it
    even just blowing fan to water surface does the work here...
  • HDCuHDCu June 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro d88koi,

    Thank you for your appreciation. Beni color differs from yellow orange to pink beni upto purplish red beni. I stay away from purplish red beni and I now prefer the soft orange elastic beni preferably the thicker the better. A koi would good beni quality is where beni would slowly build up after some time. It can be gradual or when the growth slows down. This depends on the bloodline and the water Ph. Softer water normally prolongs the finish of beni while harder water promotes faster finish. I am able to notice this since in our country where there are areas of soft and hard water. Temperature to a degree also plays a significant part of beni quality as well as "resting" the kois as compared to "pushing" growth. Food also can play a significant part. I have tried other color enhancer brands as compared to FD color and yellowing of shiroji is the problem. FD color does not IMO affect the qualitymof the shiroji. FD color however is slower acting but effective color enhancer.

    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-06-24 12:07:59 pm
  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good afternoon Bro HDCu

    Quote
    I hope our HM think doing household chores daily is a responsibility rather some kind of an enslavement or else we are both in BIG trouble. haha!

    Comment
    True true. hehehe.....

    Quote
    If I activate the surface skimmer, all these small foam disappear in seconds.

    Comment
    Visually Disappear from the main pond.....but suck into your 1st chamber? You don't think all these foaming is a tell tales sign that your biological filter is still at its infant stage, not mature and/or are provided inadequately due to your feed rates?

    Quote
    Fishless cycle defies the mathematical expression of nitrification process bro? How so? Fishless cycle is not new.

    Comment
    My comment has erred. There is nothing wrong by using the fish less cycle to cultivate the nitrifying bacteria.

    Quote
    Dealer would recommend from 1 kg upto 5kg per ton of water or use the appropriate salinity meter if one has to be more accurate.

    Comment
    The amount of salting depend on the amount of nitrite. You may want to inform the dealer.

    Quote
    I dont understand how you still fail to get the concept that the ERIC system works. If I am killing all the bacteria in the filter and constantly stressing my kois everyday with this system with this constant flushing that seem to somehow irritate you , believe me I would not keep and grow my expensive show kois in this pond a minute! Trust me, it works for me and I am happy with the results like your system works for you and you are also happy with your results of which I deeply respect. Again, to each his own koi keeping skills.

    Comment
    hehehe..... yes, true, it does irritate me..... because it has been presented in a comparison bias and not completely true in all respect. Put it this way..... the riverbed is a big surface area of biofilm in nature..... his wash wash away defies and is against this simple establish fact. Some more the tracking business over such a small confined space is irrelevant and does come into effect........Saint-Venant's Principle....

    Quote
    Btw, where did you get the idea that every one square meter of japanese mat can only process 0.2 of ammonia.......

    Comment
    You can google and there are a bunch of smart alex already established the fact. 0.2g is a conservative value. The value can range from 0.2g to 1g of ammonia per m2 depending on a lot of factors how the system is subjected to. In our discussion here.... I believe the biological filtration is never matured as any brown slimy deposits (these are colonies of beneficial bacteria) that accumulate in it are power washed away......

    Quote
    One 4x8 foot of the green Japanese mat has a surface area of 220 m2.

    Comment
    Nope. you don't have that..... Jmats has a specific, I repeat specific surface area of around 275m2/m3. One piece Jmat of 1m x 2m x 0.04m is about 0.08 m3 and that translate to a total surface area of 22m2 bro....

    If you were to redo your math again based on this properties..... what does it tells you about your current provision? hehehe.....

    Quote
    Double that since I have a turnover of two times an hour and I get like 47,600 m2

    Comment
    If you are thinking along this line..... it indirectly imply that your filtration capability cannot do it in 1 pass. Check you detention time.

    Before we go into the turnover and thing like that..... tell me what is your understanding and rational of having a higher turnover rate.....

    Quote
    Sand buildup from concrete? What about those with professional glass fiber installed but still generate the sand.?

    Comment
    remain...bro.... remain..... mean... cement sand mortar not taken out or did not cleaned it out properly from the bottom drain. If all the bottom drain properly cleaned and the pond surfaces all fibreglass..... then there remain one more explanation is that the higher density mats are disintegrating due to abrasion of the turbulence of the water body..... hehehe.... Cannot be be the tank surface material.... right?

    Cheers

  • harryyewharryyew June 2013
    Posts: 396
    Good afternoon Bro frostbitez

    1st may I ask....are you local local? May I know how many degree C you managed to lower. your turnover rate allow for and what is your setup like?

    I do made error from time to time.......

    Thanks

    Cheers
  • lautslauts June 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Welcome back bro Harry! Long and informative post as usual :) .

    Bro Harry, Bro HDCu , thank you for informative discusssion. Keep it going. i see it as discussion based on scientific facts and experience and observation. Some facts from what i read and observation.

    a) Ammonia is excreted mainly via the gills regardless of whether feeding takes place. Even with no feeding , fasting for 4 days ( my experience in QT with twice daily 50% water change) , you will find still ammonia excreted without any detritus present.

    b) The faster the elimination of waste from water column the better. This to prevent further bio fouling from layer upon layers of fish waste. Not possible to totally eliminate bad bacteria from water column. But we can tilt the balance for more good bacterias by eliminating/ reducing factors that promote bad bacterias.

    c) Salt level of 0.2% is sufficient to prevent nitrite poisoning regardless of nitrite level. Infact 0.1% ok according to Noga. Salt presence prevent nitrite from bonding with blood hemoglobin.

    ts

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