Red veins suddenly appeared in the shiroji of my kois
  • eugeneeugene May 2013
    Posts: 36
    Hi guys,

    A dealer visited my pond about a week ago and commented that my kois are abit "too skinny/small" since I told him I was feeding them Sakai Hi-Growth. So....for the past few days I've been increasing the amount of food to them. Last night there was some heavy rain (hasn't been raining for a while - acid rain?) and when i went to feed my kois this morning, lo and behold, all of them had these "fine red veins" on their shiroji. My question(s) are:

    1) Are the red veins caused by my overfeeding? But why only now?
    2) Did the rain cause the red veins?
    3) How do you guys prevent "red veins"? Is there a proactive way to "Red-vein" proof your pond? I'm thinking something on the lines of increasing filter media, coral or oysters etc.

    Look forward to your suggestions.

    Thanks All.

    Eugene
  • ShukriShukri May 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    Hi Eugene,
    How big is your pond and is your pond covered? Have you tested the pH after the rain fall? Need to know the water parameters. What you can do is to change 30 - 50% of the pond water (you can take advantage to clean your filter chambers in the proccess), and then add salt to increase salt to 0.3% in the water. Stop feeding for a day or two........ hope your situation improve...........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • MfwleeMfwlee May 2013
    Posts: 355
    Agree with Bro Shukri.
    If you have not accidentally imported an infection / infestation e.g recently added in new fish, then the red veins are usually a sign of stress - and often related to the condition of your water.
    I would immediately check the water parameters especially for Ammonia and Nitrite, and also the pH ( because of the acidic rain ). Do this before you change the water - it would be useful to find out what actually went wrong - and then change ( no point measurung after a large change, ya ? ) Shukris advice to also clean the filters and to mildly salt your pond are what I would do if I were you.
    My suspicion is that you accidentally over loaded your filters - have a good look at the cause and improve your filtration system if required. You don't want it to happen again ... and it looks like you also don't want skinny koi right ?
    :) :) :)
    Mike Lee
  • eugeneeugene May 2013
    Posts: 36
    A few things I forgot to add....

    I added two new kois but in the first few days, no red veins appeared on any of them.

    Also, just before i added my kois, my pond was cleaned but the contractor doing the cleaning used tap water to clean my Jap filter mats....I was like hmmmm (shouldn't he be using the pond water for that?). But anyways, with this in mind I added some refresh powder to kinda increase the alkalinity of the pond. What's my pond pH, I can't find my pH paper! :(

    What should I do now? Water change again? (But I did a big change when the pond was cleaned). Should I increase the salt level?

    Abang Shukri, yes my pond is covered with some sail cloth (UV Proof). My pond is around 25T. My filter system is a slightly larger than normal standard "up down" chambers with J-Mats and an almighty amount of coral.

    Thanks again bros for your advice.

    Eugene
  • MfwleeMfwlee May 2013
    Posts: 355
    Once you say that you have recently added in new fish, and especially if they have not been quarantined, - the whole ball game changes. In a worst case scenario, the 2 newbies could be carriers - hence, your current stocks could simply be reacting to some unwelcome visitors that they accidentally brought along.

    If this is the case, you would be looking at a large scale disinfecting course for the whole pond. In any case, get help quickly from somebody who can come over to have a look. It would help if you clarify where you live just in case there is somebody nearby. What about a Koi dealer ( I don't mean an aquarium shop ) near you ?

    Don't worry about having used tap water to clean your filter mats - they will normally be recolonized in a matter of days. I just flushed my vortex filters with tap water this morning - no feeding for 2 days, and then slowly resume feeding from the 3rd day.
    Mike Lee
  • ShukriShukri May 2013
    Posts: 4,881

    Oh OK! If added new kois without quarantining, then this is problem la......... The new additions have infected your inhabitant in the pond. Treatment should be in order.......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • eugeneeugene May 2013
    Posts: 36
    Hi Mike, Shukri

    The kois were quarantined in the dealer's pond for a week or so. When I bought them, I told him to "quarantine" them for me. I didn't quarantine on my side when I brought them home.

    Does that mean I would still need to quarantine them myself?

    But then wouldn't the red veins have showed up immediately if it was something from my new fish? It didn't and after only a few days of heavy feeding then this morning all of them had the red veins including the new fish too. I'm suspecting the overfeeding did it, in which case my filter hasn't got enough "buffer" eh?

    Eugene

  • MfwleeMfwlee May 2013
    Posts: 355
    Eugene - " quarantining " in a dealers pond can be dicey because of the amount of stocks that they normally carry. Some of them even have interconnected tanks ( via their sharing filters, water source, etc. ) ! Not so bad if he sets up a F/G tank solely to house your selection - but this kind of a friend is a rare breed.
    The period of quarantine of a week or so is definitely insufficient. On my part, I keep the fellas in a F/G tank, in my house, all on their own, for at least 4 weeks, with 8 weeks being even better. Conversely, the fish that have been housed in a dealers pond for a month does not necesarilly mean that they have been quarantined for one month. It only means that they have survived for one month, amongst a bunch of friends, and seem to look OK. when you started to net them.

    If they had introduced some nasties into your pond, the nasties will take a while to reproduce to sufficient numbers in order to bother the others. 2 - 4 days is normal. One tip that I have seen is to watch the behavior in the pond after you introduce any new fish. If your established residents appear like they are a going to climb out of the the other side of the pond to avoid them - then you know you have introduced a big problem.

    Yes, if it is a filter overload problem, then a lot more details will have to be looked at. Your stocking level, the size and design of your filter, the water turnaround rate, etc. etc. etc. Whether this is the case can be determined with a simple check of your water parameters. If you suddenly get ammonia and nitrite readings, then you know that your filter is falling behind. Stop feeding, change water, and get to the cause real quick because both will cause fatalities if allowed to continue.
    Mike Lee
  • AnuarAnuar May 2013
    Posts: 688
    Hi Bro,

    Happened to me twice this year. With limited knowledge, I salted the pond at 0.3 and poured S1 @ 1 liter per 2 tonne of water and everything was okay after about 5 days. There was no feeding during medication.

    Good luck.
  • flamestar1986flamestar1986 May 2013
    Posts: 52
    bro Mfwlee,

    Out of curiosity wht kind of filteration do u have set up for ur FGT quarantine
  • MfwleeMfwlee May 2013
    Posts: 355
    I actually use 4 F/G tanks.
    A 100+ gallon for dips /medication. This does not require a filter - only an air pump for aeration.
    A 300+ gallon for water changes - To always remove chlorine before use.

    Two 300 gallons for quarantine / growing on. These use the standard 4 chamber box type that fit over the top. Brushes / coarse sponge for the first chamber, and Japanese mat laying in parallel for the next 2, and oyster shells in the last where you have the return pipe. One air stone in the second chamber.
    No problems if I keep sensible stocking levels e.g. 4 tosai for about 6 months before they are either culled, or go into the pond.
    In an emergency ( like when there is a cheap sale at a dealer ), I increase the filteration with one of the big black box filters that you can buy at most shops. Just look for one where you can wash the mechanical part without disturbing the rest of the filter.
    Mike Lee
  • eugeneeugene May 2013
    Posts: 36
    Hi, thanks for all the suggestions. I was thinking of using "Kenkona Koi" - I think 1 L should do it for my pond size (25T). S1 would just be too much to put and the "radioactive green" color is scary!

    Has anyone use this for the red veins?

    Eugene
  • JamesJames May 2013
    Posts: 1,964
    Just salt pond and wait patiently.
  • eugeneeugene May 2013
    Posts: 36
    Hi James,

    Yeah I'm following what Shukri suggested by adding salt to 0.3%. I also added about 10L of S1 to the mix. Waiting waiting ....
  • JamesJames May 2013
    Posts: 1,964
    After adding S1 all red veins are gone immediately. Not because they are but because you cannot see in the green le.....
  • ray2kray2k May 2013
    Posts: 96
    I think combination of new fish and impaired filter is the cause. I would just salt. Follow Bro James suggestion if you need to mask the red veins.

    Been down this road before.
  • eugeneeugene May 2013
    Posts: 36
    Hi all,

    Sorry to drag this like a taiwanese soap opera. The red veins have dissipated quite significantly (some more than others). My salt level is currently at 0.29% and with 10L of S1. I'll be away for a week and so this is another opportunity to "fast/quarantine" them. Should I stay the course (i.e. don't do anything) and leave them as it is for the week or add more salt to make 0.5%? Top up with more S1?

    For those of you who had these red veins before....was the eventual cure 100% effective? I.e. shiroji back to original with not a hint/scar of the red veins?

    Thanks again for the helpful suggestions/hints.

    Eugene
  • ShukriShukri May 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    Eugene,
    What ever medication and procedure that you have adopted, you have to give it time for the medication to work. Please do not change the medication from one or another every one or two days.........medication takes time.........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • eugeneeugene June 2013
    Posts: 36
    Thanks bro Shukri for your suggestion on the salt 0.3% and S1. After about a week the red veins have disappeared! Question now is should I maintain this salt level or proceed to lower salt level to say 0.1%. I heard maintaining a high salt level isn't good in the long run!
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar June 2013
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro Eugene,
    Gud to hear the koi recovered.
    Yes, maintaining salt in long run not gud for koi. Slowly reduce salt level to '0' :)
  • MfwleeMfwlee June 2013
    Posts: 355
    Agreed, and the other reason is that you do not want the nasties in your pond to get used to the salt. This will make it difficult to bomb them the next time.

    Note that the salt does not evaporate or break down inside your pond, and gradual water changes over a few weeks will be required to bring the level down.
    Mike Lee
  • eugeneeugene June 2013
    Posts: 36
    Hi Thinesh, Mike,

    Thanks for your helpful suggestions.

    Thinesh - how did you get your Tancho shiroji so white? Wow...Mine's kinda yellowy.

    Eugene
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar June 2013
    Posts: 1,763
    Hi Bro, few things can be done:
    1) Stop feeding color
    2) Feed Hi-silk for one to two week
    3) Salting up to 0.5% for a week
    4) Refresh pond for a week (without feeding)
    5) Remedor for pond

    The results differs from one koi with another. I suggest you try one at a time. :)

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