Swelling eye after QT need help.
  • waikong2007waikong2007 December 2010
    Posts: 18
    Hi there, Bro,
    I've just got this koi back from the dealer 3weeks ago, nissai about 50cm and was in my qt with another similar koi and doing my normal quarantine procedure until last Saturday. It was in the last stage of my 5days anti-parasite treatment where I've added Masaki MP3 for 2days with a dosage of 60ml/ton of water with 0.05% salt for my QT and also changing 50% water everyday before I add in the dosage then I notice this bulging eye.
    Immediately, I stop the parasite treatment and change 50% water to dilute the treatment, then on Sunday after a bro kichi have visited my pond; I did another 50% water change and top up the salt level to 0.2% and also did a 20ml antibiotic injection and a further one yesterday and also one more today, with 50% water change and top up salt level to 0.3% everyday. By today the swelling has gone down about 50%.
    Should I need to continue with the Ciprobay 100 for another 2 days or should I stop? Should I need to continue with my last stage of anti-parasite treatment which I've not completed yet? Should I need to continue changing water at 50% or less and should I need to increase the salt level to 0.5%? The amonia level is high at 1.5-3.0ppm, that is why I'm doing 50% water change everyday. But this is stressing the koi. I'm quite confused what to do next, hope some bro can help me.
    Thank you
    Regards
    Chakhttp://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/880/top%20view%20eye.JPGhttp://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/881/swelling%20eye.JPGhttp://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/882/swelling%20eye1.JPGhttp://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/883/swelling%20eye%202.JPGhttp://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/884/normal%20eye.JPG
    Post edited by waikong2007 at 2010-12-14 02:28:51 am
  • PH8PH8 December 2010
    Posts: 683
    Hi Bro Chak, I'm curious why the ammonia level in your Qtank is so high? You haven't been feeding at all, right?

    I think you've been doing the right things (salting and giving Ciprobay injections), so be patient. From my own experience, pop eye is due to something wrong internally, possibly an internal bacterial infection of some sort which has affected the koi's ability to equalise osmotic pressures. Salting will help, because it reduces the osmotic pressure differential between the water and the koi's inner body. With this stress reduced, it gives the koi more energy to battle the bacterial infection (with the help of Ciprobay), and if all goes well, the koi will recover totally. Sometimes though, if the internal infection is too advanced, the pop eye will come back. This was what happened to my tancho.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2010-12-14 03:04:22 am
  • SengChoonSengChoon December 2010
    Posts: 443
    Bro,

    Bulging eyes during quarantine is normally an indication of internal bacteria infection. You should perform internal bacteria treatment before proceeding to complete your quarantine with the parasite treatment. (Normally, during quarantine I would do parasite treatment first before doing bacteria treatment.)

    I would recommend you start the internal bacteria treatment immediately. But since you have started injecting your fish, it would be best to complete the dosage as it does help in combating internal bacteria infections.

    Out of curiosity, how much are you giving per injection? 20ml as mentioned above is equiv to 20cc. This is rather high. Is your Ciprobay 50ml bottle (100mg ciproflaxcin) or 100ml (100mg ciprflaxcin) bottle? These have different strength, so you need to be careful. For a 50cm fish, you can either inject 2.5-3.0cc once a day for 3 or 5 days or for better speedier results, 1.5-2.0cc twice a day-12 hours apart for 3 or 5 days as well, using the 50ml (100mg) bottle.

    Another thing, you need to take care is to reduce the ammonia level in your QT. Firstly, stop feeding. Frequent water changes in your QT must have affected the good bacteria in your filter. That probably explains for the spike in ammonia levels as your good bacteria population would have been depleted by the frequent water changes. To address this, you need do one more water change (abt 50%) and then add some pond starter and bring salt to 0.3%. You need to monitor the ammonia levels in your QT daily or 12 hourly. If the ammonia spikes again, do a partial (30%) water change and top up the pond starter. Alternatively, you can use an Ammonia Remover if the ammonia levels are too high and water changes are getting to frequent ie every 12 hours. Otherwise,it should be ok.

    Once the ammonia is in check, you fish should recover faster.

    Hope this helps.


    Post edited by SengChoon at 2010-12-14 06:21:59 am
  • lautslauts December 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    Hi Waikong,

    I recently used Misaki first time and notice that it did specify that bulging eyes was one of the side effect of Misaki AP3. Also it is not recommended with salt ( or less than 0.1%) so 0.5% definately sounds too much to use together with Misaki AP3. Did you dose correct ? Anyhow Ciprobay injection sounds like solid advise.

    rgd
    ts
  • waikong2007waikong2007 December 2010
    Posts: 18
    Hi there bro,
    Thank you for the prompt reply, I really appreciate it. Just to clarified a few assumption and question. Firstly, I've not feed the fish at all, just a few pallet to test their stability in the QT during the odd days. Secondly, this is not bulging eye as we see it while using AP3, there is some reddish/pinkish fluid in the "eyesack"(i've the other picture that is showing bulging), the eye was swelling up like goldfish eye two days ago. Thirdly, while I'm doing AP3 treatment the salt level is only 0.05% and not 0.5%, the highest salt level in my QT is only 0.3% now. Fourthly, there is a mistake in my posting with regards to the among of Ciprobay 100 I'm injecting, it is indeed 2cc/ml on the syringe. And I'm using the 50ml bottle with 127.2mg of ciprofloxacin.
    Bro Paul,
    I'm also curious why my ammonia is so high(i did check my pond ammonia, and it show zero, so nothing wrong with the test kit). I'm also suspecting internal bacteria infection but on the contrary, I've just finished 5 days of Melafix dosage then 2 days without dosage but with 50% water change each day to dilute the QT of Melafix before I start administering AP3 on the third day. Just want to find out why my anti-bacteria QT fail me this time. Thank you very much for your advise.
    Bro Seng Choon,
    I think your advise on QT is good that we do anti-parasite first then follow by anti- bacteria coz in that case we will not wipe-out the good bacteria in the QT initially, like what I'm facing now. Which is without bacteria to breakdown ammonia that is why I needed advise on my next course of action. With my Ciprobay 100 injection now which is 2cc and 3 consecutive days, do you think it is enough or do you think that I need to continue for 5 days with my 2cc dosage? Please advise.
    Bro TS,
    I think my koi is not having bulging eye but swollen eye with fluid in the eyeball, so I'm suspecting internal bacteria infection.Thank you for your advise.

    Would it be advisable for me to us my pond water to top up the QT during water change to bring my ammonia level down coz my pond water already have the bacteria to breakdown the ammonia? Then once the eye swelling have fully recovered then I'll start my quarantine procedure again because my pond water will be full of bad bacteria also. Please advise.
    Thank you
    Regards
    Chak
  • farikfarik December 2010
    Posts: 317
    bro waikong,
    If you can get hold of Chloramphenicol injection use this to jab the fish as this is the specific antibiotic for bacterial eye infection.Ciprobay can work.... u should finish the course for 5 days.
  • waikong2007waikong2007 December 2010
    Posts: 18
    Hi there Bro Farik,
    Thanks alot for your recommendation, I'll have to finish the 5 days Ciprobay jap first. Looks like the koi is improving now. Do you think I need a prescription to obtain Chloramphenicol and what is the recommended dosage and dosage period for this anti-bio? I'll need to obtain some just in case.
    Thank you
    Regards
    Chak
  • farikfarik December 2010
    Posts: 317
    As chloramphenicol is an anti-biotic you would need a presciption.dosage is 50mg/kg/day bodyweight . you can jab best is twice a day but if troublesome once a day will do.there are a few preparations so that's why i give u the mg/kg so u can match it with the cc from the injection vial.If you have a dr. friend would come in handy.for chloramphenicol 3 days is sufficent.
  • HWONGHWONG December 2010
    Posts: 286
    Pls note that Andrew has informed that Misaki MP3 formulation has FORMALIN in it. Formalin and salt is a nono!

    Also, some kois do not take to high salt level even at 0.5%. You can observe this in koi show vats even when water is salted to 0.3%
    Post edited by HWONG at 2010-12-14 11:43:04 am
  • SengChoonSengChoon December 2010
    Posts: 443
    Bro Chak,

    Do continue with the 2cc jab till 5 days. Improvement should come gradually. If the condition worsen, do switch to 1.5cc twice a day for 3 days. You should see improvement rather fast then.

    If your pond water has gone thru filtration, I believe you can use it to top up your QT, but dont channel the water from QT back to the pond or its filter. It is merely to help kick start your filter. Even then, you still need to use the pond starter but at a lower dosage.

    In any case, do check the ammonia levels until you are sure your filter is back and working.


  • waikong2007waikong2007 December 2010
    Posts: 18
    Bro Farik,
    Thank you for the info. I've a Dr. friend so I'll have no problem getting the chloramphenicol. But when you said 50mg/kg/day, does this mean 5cc if the anti-boitic comes with 100mg/100ml bottle? Just want to clarified.

    Bro Hwong,
    I do realize that salt and formalin is a no no. But when you said that some kois don't adapt so well to 0.5% this is new to me, I'll have to be careful in future if I have to bring my salt level to 0.5%. Thanks for the advise.

    Bro Seng Choon,
    I'll continue with the 5 days course jab. I've change 30% water yesterday evening using my pond water and this morning the ammonia have drop down to between 1.5-1.0ppm, and the koi's eye infection is improving too this morning and also the koi is not so stress by the look of it. I'll do another water change with my pond water this evening again. Thanks

    Regards
    Chak
  • farikfarik December 2010
    Posts: 317
    Bro Chak,
    Firstly determine the weight of your fish, roughly how many kg, then using the weight of the fish let say 5kg, so for every 1 kg of fish you have to jab 50mg.so total that you have to jab is 250mg a day. then read your vial label and see what is the strength of the antibiotic that is supplied to you... let say it is 50mg per 1ml. so you have to jab 5ml per dose.

    Normally to estimate the weight of the fish using basin before and after on a weighing scale.that is put the basin with water on a weighing scale and get the weight and then put the fish in and get another weight then deduct the 2 readings and you will get the weight of the fish.normally precise dosages is used when we are handling potent antibiotic that can lead to organ damage kidney or liver damage.there are a few...like bactrim,tetracycline.
  • waikong2007waikong2007 December 2010
    Posts: 18
    Bro Farik,
    Very detail explanation there. I don't think we can go wrong even if this anti-bio is potent.
    Thank you
    Regards
    Chak
  • ikankoikauikankoikau December 2010
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro Chak & brudders,

    I wanted to comment on this thread but I hv forgotten. I think it is important for all of us to know and discuss on this issue.
    Why there is ammonia present when you did q a lot of water change?
    Why too much of water change is not recommended?

    What I know, when you change water, surely you will add anti chlorine. Regardless of which type, sodium thiosulfate(crystal) or API water conditioner(which I am using), the degraded of chlorine and chloramine will be free ammonia. Shocking but true, the more you change water, the more anti chlorine added, the more free ammonia will present. This will be significant if we add new water in the quarantine tank as the filter may not be that efficient to handle ammonia.

    In your case, the swelling eyes could be from ammonia present and/or side effect from Misaki. 50% water change everyday or too frequent like your case, IMHO may be a bit too much. Overdose anti chlorine will have no effect on ammonia but it might get rid of chloramine. Not sure wx sodium thiosulfate can clear chloramine but I am using API Water Conditioner for that purpose. So the solution, we need to add instant ammonia remover(zeolite for e.g) if we make significant water change in the QT. But one thing for sure, PH level plays an important part as well as free ammonia will be negligible if PH around 7 or less but increase as PH increases.

    Due to this, I hv changed my routine water change in my pond and QT. For more than 25% water change in the pond, I will add tap water before the Bio stage(1st or 2nd chamber for e.g) so that the filter will handle the ammonia. Unless the PH is well below 7.5. Since I am lazy to measure PH level, so I just play safe and top up water before the bio stage. Another option for QT, use pond water.

    I did noticed this before as the fishes were restless if I did a lot of water change(more than 20) even with gradual addition of anti chlorine when I top up in the pump chamber. It also could be due to changes of water parameter as well but the fishes were more relaxed when I topped up the water from my 1st or 2nd chamber. The way we add anti chlorine also important. When the instruction says, use 10ml of anti chlorine for 500lit ( for e.g), it meant that we add 10ml of anti chlorine into 500lit water not adding 10ml of anti chlorine with running water of 500 lit into 20000lit pond. How certain are we that the newly added water will have contact with the anti chlorine in 20 ton pond. For this, I will try to overdose to clear the chlorine and going for the chloramine. This is very safe and harmless to the fishes. But if you way overdosed it beyond clearing the chloramine, then there will be side effects.
  • waikong2007waikong2007 December 2010
    Posts: 18
    Hi there Bro IKK,
    Nice of you to chip-in so that we can learn from our experience. What you say is true, every time when we buy koi, we do know how good/bad is the water; the koi is coming from or whether how much the dealer is feeding them. What I can remember, there is an autofeeder by the pond, so the koi must be well fed when I got it, couple with my daily change of water and anti-chlorine result in wiping-out the bacteria and also the koi feces contribute to the ammonia spike. These condition stresses out the koi which is why the cause of internal bacteria infection.
    But since I've use my pond water to do the daily water change the past 4 days the ammonia level have drop to about 0.5-0.25ppm and also the above koi have stabilize and on the way to recovery. Even the bulging on the right eye have gone down also.
    I've learn alot from our Bro's contribution the last few days, hope others who follow this thread will learn too.
    Thank you
    Regards
    Chak

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