KOI MOUTH CANNOT CLOSE!
  • HWONGHWONG March 2013
    Posts: 286
    Just want to share this with you all.
    My 75 cm chagoi amongst others in the pond initially had fungus (white coat) infection. I treated with Methylene blue which has always worked after 2 or 3 doses. As she was also lying on the bottom, I sedated her with transmore (like tea tree oil) and treated her with 3 courses injections of ciprobay (broad spectrum antibiotic) 1st with 3cc, 2nd (to pectoral fin) & 3rd (to end of dorsal fin) with 2cc. She and my other kois continued to be listless.

    koianswers.com/discussion/download/12289/koi mouth1.jpg

    After a break of 3 days and a water change, I treated them with an off the shelf concoction (similar to interpet anti bacteria product) which has Malachite green and formalin, The next day, I noticed the mouth of the chagoi and a smaller showa were wide open and not closing. On the 3rd day , the showa recovered and mouth moving as normal but the Chagoi’s remains wide open.

    I was advised to check if the gills were infected with any flukes or maggots. I checked both kois but gills are healthy. I tried to close the mouth of the chagoi but it wont close even with firm pressure. There is no ulcer or objects stuck in the mouth. It was cruising around the pond, I assume this is to get oxygen into the gillls. She cudn’t eat and I was afraid she will watse away if condition persist.

    I posted this problem on Koi bito and you can read some answers on possible causes to the problem:

    #1
    “Check to see that both mouth hinges look the same from the outside. I did run across this also with koi and it would run around with it's mouth open and trying to eat not very effectively, it would be handled and mouth closed and jaw joint carefully compressed at that seemed to rite it . It did however go back again to open mouth so was thinking might have been some genetic weakness. It eventually healed and did alright.”


    #2
    “Morning, lock jaw in koi is unfortunately very common and most people miss it in smaller fish but its obvious when you are feeding a larger fish that its mouth is frozen open. And often the condition has been there all along but not noticed until the fish is larger. In your case, it could be that the fish had an ulcer in the mouth ( look for scar tissue) or has a broken bone ( the lip/mouth structure) that has not healed correctly due to the constant movement. I have seen this often before and sometimes it can be a toxic reaction to injections and compounds in the water. IF you can close the mouth and see that it is a mechanical problem as the close mouth is tilted or a bone protrudes you have your answer. IF you close it and it is normal in shape or IF you see adhesions ( scar tissue) in the floor of the mouth, it was an ulcer that did the damage. If it is due to drug over dose there is a slight chance it will correct itself ( nerve damage).
    Look to see if the can eat. And so realize that the opening and closing of the mouth as the gills operate is a very important function for getting gases into the bllod stream and toxins out so this is a greater health problem than just eating. JR”

    “also try and see if the fish 'twitches' when still or makes mad dashes when it moves across the surface. These are both signs of nerve damage from injections. Good Luck, JR”


    I suspected I may have been too aggressive with antibiotic dosage. I may have damage the nerves when injecting the pectoral muscles. She is now cruisng near the surface n this is not a good sign I suspect.

    I consulted with Dr Fuad of Universiti Pertanian. He adviced I increase water temp to help the nervous system. I transferred her to QT with 0.2% salt. Also add a dose of 3gm per ton OTC?

    PROGRESS

    After 1 week of OTC treatment with salt and warmer water to help the nervous system as suggested by Dr Fuad (Vet), she responded. Her mouth was moving slightly. Then I started to feed her a little on OTC powder coated pellets.

    On 2nd week, I stopped OTC but continued to maintain .02% salt. Her mouth was moving a bit more.

    Now she is much better. Although her mouth does not close entirely she is eating freely. I will keep her in the FT and hopefully we have full recovery.

    TQ Dr Fuad!

    So I hope this episode will give others who may have same problem in the future a protocol to follow.
  • mrkoimrkoi March 2013
    Posts: 496
    Bro Hwong,

    Tq for sharing. I hope she doing well and totally recover asap.
  • MfwleeMfwlee March 2013
    Posts: 355
    " ... most people miss it in smaller fish but its obvious when you are feeding a larger fish that its mouth is frozen open ... "
    I actually have a tosai that was not growing as fast as his peers - and upon closer observation - it looked like the mouth is not hinging properly. It does not happen all the time, but once in a while, the poor fella has trouble when he goes for a pellet, but has trouble getting it into his mouth because he can't close it. Taking advice, I now soak his pellets first - and he seems to be managing better.
    I am still wondering - will he ever get normal ?
    No, I have not done any treatment of any sorts, so the cause should be different. Here is to wishing that yours recovers as well. :)
    Mike Lee
  • AnuarAnuar March 2013
    Posts: 688
    Mr Wong,

    Thanks for sharing.

    In your posting, Dr Fuad mentioned that warmer water is better for koi's nervous system. Would you be able to elaborate what this means? The context of this is how do we then balance against claims that cooler (relative in our climate) water is better in other aspects.

    Regards.
  • HWONGHWONG March 2013
    Posts: 286
    Anuar,

    Dr Fuad did not specify to me water temp but just to raise the temp above pond water temp. So I sat my FT on bare floor and with sun shinning. The water temp rose but again I didn't have thermometer. This prescription was intentionally for treatment and not for normal husbandry.

    As for normal koi keeping, I have observed that 26 degrees is good.
  • niveknivek March 2013
    Posts: 1,251
    Thanks for sharing Wong (Y)
  • ta5851ta5851 March 2013
    Posts: 50
    I have one kohaku which cannot close the mouth after pond tratment with dimilin and pp due to koi flashing few weeks ago. after I catch the koi, can see few bruise and redness around the mouth. So I quarantine the koi with kenkona for 3 days. The koi recover on 2nd day. Another incident happened 1 years ago, where when I see one koi cannot close the mouth, I catch it and found out whole bottom part of mouth is rotted and missing. Only few cartilage left. after try few med, decide to send the fellow back to japan to rest....
  • megatronmegatron March 2013
    Posts: 832
    Thanks for sharing your experience bro HWONG. :)
    Don't ask me why!!!
  • lautslauts March 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Thank you sifu Hwong for sharing.
    Good to know you still keep contact with the good doctor. OTC is an antibiotic , did Dr Fuad mentioned how this could help nerve damage ? with warm water and salt.

    thanks sifu.

    ts



  • HWONGHWONG March 2013
    Posts: 286
    TS, more like lao fu zhi. The otc was just a preventive against possible infection not the cure for nervous system. D higher water temp is the prescription.
  • DRADRA March 2013
    Posts: 89
    Hi Hee Heng

    Glad your koi is recovering.
    Recommended dosage of Ciprobay for a 75cm koi is 2cc on Day 1 and Day 4 and either 2cc or less on Day 7. The reason for spreading it out over a week is to allow the koi to regain its strength between jabs.
    Please keep us updated on the koi.

    Regards
    Razif
  • nocturnalnocturnal March 2013
    Posts: 376
    Abang Wong & Dato' Razif :)

    happy to see u both posting again. hope to learn more from seasoned & accomplished hobbyist like the both of u :)

    wishing a speedy recovery for ur chagoi Abang Wong & thank u for sharing ur experience :)

    adik
  • DRADRA March 2013
    Posts: 89
    Hi Adik
    Hope alls well with you and your koi. The present crop of "newbies" are fast learners and quite accomplished.
    Regards
    Razif
  • HWONGHWONG March 2013
    Posts: 286
    <blockquote rel="DRA">Hi Hee Heng

    Recommended dosage of Ciprobay for a 75cm koi is 2cc on Day 1 and Day 4 and either 2cc or less on Day 7. The reason for spreading it out over a week is to allow the koi to regain its strength between jabs.
    </blockquote>

    Dato,
    TQ.

    Ciprobay or generics comes in 50mg, 100mg & 200mg. I usually use 100mg strength and inject alternate days. Don't know how true but It is said, that regime will kill all the bacteria without leaving survivors the chance to build resistance.

    I imagine the protocol you use has been effective without damaging the koi. How many mg is your ciprobay for those dosage you mentioned.

    Rgds
    HH
  • HWONGHWONG March 2013
    Posts: 286
    Adik,

    hee hee, when the buying stops, can only talk about health issues lor.. :-(

    I feel it is very good that we can share our mistakes and experiences so that others may benefit from it. When my koi's mouth developed the problem, I had called kakis but found no prescription. Finally I got hold of our good Dr Fuad. So now we have a treatment protocol that may help the koi. But I still do not know what actually cause it.

    Cheers
  • DRADRA March 2013
    Posts: 89
    Hi Hee Heng
    It's for 100.
    Regards
  • nocturnalnocturnal March 2013
    Posts: 376
    Salam Dato' :)

    i'm all well here in Kluang, still hoping for the 'elusive' jumbo swimming in my pond :-D

    Hi Abang Wong :)

    yup, what u shared is going to be valuable for those of us who will have the same problem in the future. if it's the same chagoi u entered in MKS 2010, she has a superb tail tube!

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