"how important is the birth certificate for you?"
  • grinkz01grinkz01 January 2013
    Posts: 530
    "how important is the birth certificate for you?"

    when i start this hobby 1 year ago my answer was "definitely yes very important" as i still dont know at all how to appreciate price vs quality/bloodline/breeder historical data, trustworthy dealer?, etc.....

    but now my answer will be "not so important" but would be a plus point if it come with certificate. my appreciation was based on its koi condition + some imagination how it would be + pocket for sure!

    just want to know others hobbyist...how important birth certificate affecting ur decision to buy a koi?
  • MfwleeMfwlee January 2013
    Posts: 355
    Was very much like you when I first started more than 12 years ago. My friends were only into Discus, Arowana and other general aquarium fish, very little information except for British Koi magazines, some Japanese mags that I could not read, etc - meaning that I was very much on my own.
    Things have changed a lot now - and learned advice from experienced koi keepers is more readily available, koi dealers are a lot more knowledgeable and responsible.

    Birth certificates ? - yes, definitely still helps, but often also a sure tell sign that the fish in question will not be cheap. Do they promise quality - probably so, but as for myself, and again very much like you - good to have, but not vital so long as good advice is available.
    Mike Lee
  • tomatomoontomatomoon January 2013
    Posts: 97
    For me, it just a piece of paper and it wont effect me to buy a new koi. As you said it will be a plus point if had it.
    Post edited by tomatomoon at 2013-01-02 10:08:32 am
  • niveknivek January 2013
    Posts: 1,251
    Here's my newbie experience :

    Less than 1st month into koi - didn't even know that kois had birth certs banghead
    1 - 2 months into koi - must have birth certs #:-s
    3-5 months into koi - no longer bothered with birth certs as long as kois are nice :-))
    Post edited by nivek at 2013-01-02 10:03:43 am
  • IzrulIzrul January 2013
    Posts: 715
    agree with bro kevin..its just a plus point or bonus..ive seen good quality and expensive koi without cert,and the other way around also..so its mean nothing..
    just easier to cull and sell as some people looks that piece of paper guarantees the quality
  • smokersmoker January 2013
    Posts: 715
    Bro Ming, personally, my decision to choose a koi will purely base on the koi's quality, and not the paper.

    However, farm, bloodline and age will play the part. That's when certi of origin is needed to know the farm, bloodline and age. Certi of origin is just the complement, as data for the keeping. Doesn't have correlation with choosing koi or koi quality, though i think most good quality ones comes with breeder's certi, especially for bigger farm.

    As i said, it's a complement, I never hesitate to choose a koi with no certi, or the certi is lost. There are some already, for example, my karashi ;-)
  • AnuarAnuar January 2013
    Posts: 688
    In my own view, the cert is important for indecisive hobbyist with limited pond space during the culling process - eventhough we will only get a tiny fraction of what we paid for. It helps in the selling process.

    And I dont think that all dealers know with 100% accuracy of even the breeder, especially if the kois have been with the dealer for quite sometimes.
  • cubercuber January 2013
    Posts: 96
    I think the only used of the certificate is to actually know the origin of the koi, for me as a newbie, I don't care about the bloodline actually, but when I see a nice good looking koi, I can't really say if it's local or not. The only indication for me is the certificate, unless if the certificates can also be forged, then I think I'll be in a big problem. I won't be able to differentiate between local and import.

    It does matter when it come to the price, if a good nice looking koi being priced as import but without certificate, I will be very concern, who knows you are actually buying local bred kois with the price of import?
  • JJ88JJ88 January 2013
    Posts: 53
    for me i agree tomatomoon say cert is a papers.

    SORRY TO SAY,why wit certificate koi sell expensive,no certificate sell cheap..
    why we pay money buy a papers??U can grantee got certificate koi pattern tak lari???i think no people can grantee.
    kadang~2 show fish pun xde certificate,hahahaha..
    Post edited by JJ88 at 2013-01-02 11:06:04 pm
  • grinkz01grinkz01 January 2013
    Posts: 530
    hmmm seems all shifus here doesnt really care about certificate..how about new entry hobbyst? how is a certificate affecting your decision or ur pocket?
  • kolampkolamp January 2013
    Posts: 222
    Bro Ming,
    as a newbie in this hobby I tend to find good looking kois without cert since its cheaper than the certified ones...during learning curve process, incidents & accidents are expected & it wont hurt my wallet so much when it happens hahahaa :-))
  • idrisidris January 2013
    Posts: 1,182
    Bro jj88 quote----SORRY TO SAY,why wit certificate koi sell expensive,no certificate sell cheap..
    why we pay money buy a papers??U can grantee got certificate koi pattern tak lari???i think no people can grantee.
    kadang~2 show fish pun xde certificate,hahahaha..

    Bro jj88..most of your statement is true..but this depends on hobbyist to choose....to highlight, certificate stated the koi from which farm, from which parent, date of birth...this is quite a useful information to see if let say u buying Nisai...from here you can see the koi development or growth until the date u purchase the koi....

    Why we paying more for the cert kois? Basically for the guaranteed of this information...of course cert can't guaranteed pattern or quality x lari..because this depends on your husbandry skills...but this is just my honest opinion... For me, If I'm buying an expensive koi, I would need the cert to convince me the koi come from reputable breeder and parent...because if not of the cert, what else can guarantee the origin?

    And bro cuber...most of the experience hobbyist can differentiate between local and Japan...especially gosanke...non gosanke I believe local quality could be near to those imported...like ogon or Chagoi...if not confident when shopping, bring a sifu to help u..this is one of good way..just my opinion...
    Post edited by idris at 2013-01-03 10:45:05 pm
  • ZackZack January 2013
    Posts: 232
    Bros, my questions can create an alarm but I just want to seek clarification in this forum on 'How genuine is the birth certificate?' Can it be produce by other than the breeder? Is there any organization or legal bodies that control the producing of the cert? This is because it went to my ears that 'Oh you want certificate? Yes we can do that. We just need to paste the koi picture on the readily sign cert & update the birth date. Is this true?

    My take is to look at the actual qualities of the koi of interest. Certificate is just a sweetener.
    My kois are my lover
  • grinkz01grinkz01 January 2013
    Posts: 530
    bro zack....part of ur saying was true. i have my own experience on that one. dealer imported hundreds of tosai from japan farm and the breeder give blank certificate so dealer can insert the pict later on.

    but what i observe at that time : dealer didnt manipulate the fish and birth month/year ---- at least from the koi i select and bought.

    but i also agree that there might be a dirty game as u described above.....customer will never know. So that is why my direction changed now...i dont want to get bothered by a certificate.
    Post edited by grinkz01 at 2013-01-04 01:03:47 am
  • niveknivek January 2013
    Posts: 1,251
    A foolproof system would be to have serialiazed certificate numbers, pics, embedded tag ID in the koi and whenever we key in any of these numbers into the Japanese koi farm database, all the corresponding information would show, including current owner's info :) Just my 2 kupang.
  • grinkz01grinkz01 January 2013
    Posts: 530
    bro nivek...like arowana trading system then....
  • niveknivek January 2013
    Posts: 1,251
    Bro grinkz01, yes and pedigree dogs have the same system as well.
  • ZackZack January 2013
    Posts: 232
    In my opinion, that kind of system will push the price high even for tosais as it involves setting up control system, man power to maintained it in each country, subjected to audit, legistation & so on. Though good to have but I strongly believed it is not necessary. I lay down my earlier questions to relate current situation but of course if you are buying very expensive piece, you definitely wants an assurance that the certificate is genuinely produce from the farm that the koi comes from, for it's bloodline (gene) & trade marks of the farm.
    Main issue here is dealer must & at no means do something that can ruin their integrity while buyer must built confidence & trust. If in doupt, ask around as words of mouth spread quickly & I believed dealer will not dare to do something stupid that can also ruin their earnings. Stick to the principles your goods, our money. Once bitten, twice shy!
    My kois are my lover
  • pandaipandai May 2014
    Posts: 1,083
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • ikankoikauikankoikau May 2014
    Posts: 1,053
    As for a newbie like me, it is good to have a birth cert as I am old and can't recall all the origin and parent of my 40 over "babies". It's a good reference on the growth rate and to see the potential of the the koi especially the one with underlying sumi which can come and go. Other than that, it's a good doc when you want to sell your koi especially to someone who are not close to you.

    Other than that, it's certainly does not guarantee the quality of the koi. But expensive Koi should have birth cert but certainly the birth cert shouldn't jack the price up further.
  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Only good for showing off to my friends and relatives when they come over during CNY :-)) and hear them go "wahlau fish also got cert..dun play play!". That's my current feeling after 1.5yrs in the hobby and still a noob.
    Post edited by nivek at 2014-05-25 09:44:11 pm
  • pandaipandai May 2014
    Posts: 1,083
    The only thing wrong with the two postings above is both sifus calling themselves newbie... [-X
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    I believe I have to chip in as well......... :-D
    To me it is for record purposes, as I cant really remember which koi is 5 years old, 6 or what ever age. After a while, I really cant keep track of which one is 10 years and which one is what ever age.......... When I am not sure, the Certificate surely comes in handy.

    Sifus disguise as newbies, is like a Lion trying to be like a cat........ [-X b-(
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-05-25 11:15:16 pm
  • YipmYipm May 2014
    Posts: 194
    Totally agree with sifu Capt' s comment and not newbie Capt. Measuring growth rate is key to me before i buy any fish otherwise i can't have jumbo in my pond.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau May 2014
    Posts: 1,053
    In this hobby, the more you know, the more you dont know. ;-)
  • brianlawbrianlaw May 2014
    Posts: 107
    Agreed with the comments by all the "sifus" and "pretend not to be sifus". For me, 2 most important things for getting a cert (i) bloodline/parent and (ii) measuring growth. You don't really need the cert if you can trust the breeder or dealer.
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    I m certainly newbie compared to the other newbies. But here is what I think anyways! Main purpose of the cert is to chart/predict the koi's future in relation to its lineage. We all have no use of the cert because we use it as a gesture of good judgement that the koi is worthy which shouldn't be the case. Most kois with cert are surely tategoi and to pay such an amount for these tategois, certs are given to guarantee their lineage. After it reaches your pond though, it is the other husbandry skills that will help the koi realise their potential.

    For example. We all know shinoda for it's hi utsuri? But what about it's hi utsuri makes a shinoda hi utsuri so precious? Well if u own one and seen how it grows then u will surely know why there is a difference. Just MHO.
  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    <blockquote rel="James">Most kois with cert are surely tategoi and to pay such an amount for these tategois, certs are given to guarantee their lineage.</blockquote>

    Sorry but have to disagree with the above statement. There are 3 types of certs that I have encountered so far : -

    1) Breeder cert to certify that the koi came from that particular koi farm. Only koi variety, date of birth and sex is shown. No parent/lineage info.

    2) Dealer cert. Similar to the above breeder cert and info provided.

    3) Breeder cert with lineage info.

    A koi with any one of the above certs in no way guarantees a tategoi else with the thousands of certs issued by breeders and dealers, we will have thousands of grand champions no? As someone mentioned previously, certs are issued as the market forces demands for it. Breeders even issue certs to tosais that are quite small, if they were deemed to have high tategoi value, the breeders would have kept those kois and sold them when they were older. Another point is what's the percentage of these cert kois that even make it into show quality kois given expert care in Japan mudponds?

    Why I would like to stress this point is that I have been there in my first year of koi keeping when initial thoughts were certs driving quality and would not like to have newcomers fall into the similar belief.
    Post edited by nivek at 2014-05-29 07:35:29 pm
  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects May 2014
    Posts: 134
    Bro nivek. 100 % with u. Like my old time koi friend said:" expensive koi with cert do not guarantee they will be good fish. Cheaper ones with no cert do not mean poor quality koi" I think he said it all.
    Post edited by urbaneffects at 2014-05-29 07:55:19 pm
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Kevin, you have to understand the purpose of certs before being a critique. You have described how certs are created and why they are created commercially today. What IMHO you have not understood is why and how these certs started, ie only Tategoi kois have certs. And I am merely saying if we understand and fall back to the roots of these certs, you will be guided more accurately.

    We clearly are not talking about dealer certs. And even with proper certs, it does not mean every koi will perform as well. But it is understanding of the oyagoi that will make certs meaningful. Look at Sakura siblings. They generally do not have strong sumi at tosai but will evidently develop. So when you look at a showa of this bloodline, you most certainly can be confident the sumi will develop and will be deep. Does this all equate to sumi guarantee? Of course not. It will also guide us to look for Sakura showas that have lesser sumi at tosai than one that has more to be a better selected koi.

    I think the question of whether certs guarantee good kois, answer is clearly NO. But with certs and knowledge of the lineage, we can choose better kois because we understand the nature of how the koi will develop. Truthfully, this is similar to understanding how an Isa Showa will develop in relation to a Dainichi Showa. We cannot assume a showa is a showa is a showa. Dainichis are relatively slow to show their full potential, whilst an Isa is engineered to show itself relatively early and will maintain throughout. Understanding the breeder is similar to understanding these certs.

    So to make it simple, here is an analogy. If you buy a car judging how it will perform through just looking at the appearance, you might be right you might be wrong, but it is not an educated guess. But if you had the fact sheet and you test drive the car, you will be able to make a better decision. Of course, for the fact sheet to make meaning, we must be able to understand the specs and their suggested benefits. But the basic things will remain, ie a BMW is performance driven. A Mercedes is more comfortable. This is what certs do for you. They tell you the general quality of the fish to expected.
    Post edited by James at 2014-05-30 01:43:57 am
  • HDCuHDCu May 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    These are the present observation I have picked up:
    1.Not all farms put what oyagoi they used in their breeders certificate. There are advantage and disadvantages of doing this for farms.
    2. A koi whether tosai, nisai or older whether it is just a male, just cost 10k yen or a koi going downhill can be issued by a certificate
    3 Some certificates have purposely blank information especially in sex. Some put "guaranteed female", "female as of moment", " gender unknown", "HQ female tategoi"
    4. There is such a thing as group shot certificate - many small tosai in one certificate
    5. If dealer with good relation with breeder can ask a willing breeder to provide "blank" breeder certificates - dealer will just take picture of breeder koi himself and laminate it himself.
    6. Knowing oyagoi in the certificate may help but also may confuse seasoned hobbyist as each koi can have different attribute and each pond and how one nurture the koi is also just as important
    7. Probably the best reason why certificate is release is marketing on the side of the breeder and because collectors for all varied reasons demand it now. For just a few hundred yen and a few minutes to do a certificate, this is not a problem with breeder.
  • brianlawbrianlaw May 2014
    Posts: 107
    I agree with James. I don't regard Dealer's cert as a valid cert. Some breeders may issue certs to comfirm the origin of the kois without stating the linage. In that case - I will ask about the parent koi. These info are useful especially you want to know if the tosai is capable of growing to a big koi (not neccesary Jumbo). Whatever it is - end of the day - is important to find a trusted dealer who is honest and tell you the nature of the koi - with or without certs.
    Post edited by brianlaw at 2014-05-30 09:58:04 am
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar May 2014
    Posts: 1,763
    <blockquote rel="nivek">Only good for showing off to my friends and relatives when they come over during CNY :-)) and hear them go "wahlau fish also got cert..dun play play!". That's my current feeling after 1.5yrs in the hobby and still a noob.</blockquote>

    :-)) :-)) Same here. Just to show off. Some kois from last year still had birth cert. After that I totally forgot about it. Never even bother to ask dealers about it :-D
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    As I have said before, just for record purposes for me........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.

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