Deadly pathogen in the environment
  • ShukriShukri November 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    First and foremost, let me start with a caveat here........as my main intension is to share and NOT to point fingers at anyone. That's what we do here, share the experience and concerns so that others can benefit from the situation and the heartache to only be experienced by us and not the others.

    I brought back my trophy Kujaku and have asked a friend to quarantine the Kujaku for me before I introduce the Kujaku into my main pond. The Kujaku was put into a concrete pond together with a few other fishes belonging to me and another friend. The water temperature is about 24 to 25 degrees. The low temperature is due to the water source, no usage of spray bar or a chiller.

    A week after the introduction of the Kujaku, we noticed that the fishes became listless (not moving much), all floating motionless more or less just underneath the water surface. One or two will be under the water inlet, as if trying to get that extra oxygen. Physically the fishes looked normal, no signs of redness or anything serious on the bodies. The fishes looked weak and lethargic, with no energy.......like starving from oxygen. The smaller fishes suffered the most. 2 fishes died on Monday, another two on Tuesday and one on Weds. All these are Tosais plus or minus 30cm. I did a lot of observations, thinking, asking others and research the web and read a few koi books. I was amazed to find out that many hobbyists have the same experience, and most have fatalities with one or two having serious fatalities.

    BTW, I am not a medical doctor nor that I am a vet.......I am just a hobbyist like you guys! Based on all these, I have concluded that the Primary infection was Viral (and I do not know what this is? just suspect it is viral). And if it is viral,
    the incubation period is about a week. And fair enough, the fatalities usually occurs within the first week. Their is no known medication for a viral infection. All infected fishes have to go through the one week period. I hugely suspect that this virus caused excessive mucous to be formed covering the gills filament. It is due to this that the infected fishes find difficulties to absorb the dissolved oxygen through the gills i.e. why the fishes are so weak with no energy. I believe this also explains why smaller fishes with smaller gills suffer a lot more as compared to the larger fishes with larger gills. The smaller fishes are being hit the worst.

    And I also hugely suspect that this virus is kind of dormant in waters 30 degrees and up, but become lively and create havoc at temperatures 24 to 26 degrees. I have also noticed thinning of the slime coating on the bodies.

    Also I have noticed the onset of secondary bacteria infections.........Aeromonas and Pseudomonas are very opportunisitic in nature. If the virus didn't kill the kois, being weak and all, these bacteria will.

    Cause of actions:
    1) Make sure that the water temperature is about 30 degrees.
    2) Plenty of aerations, to ensure that the gills are exposed to higher level of dissolved oxygen.
    3) Since the slime coat are compromised, salt have to be added.......0.6 to 0.7 %
    4) I use yellow powder
    5) I also use Oxytetracycline
    6) I jab the bigger kois with Ciprofloxacin (minimum 3 jabs........once per 24 hours)

    Conclusion,
    Indeed that the pathogen was brought into the concrete pond by my Kujaku. 5 fishes belonging to a friend have died. :-(
    His other 6 pieces are showing positive signs of recovery, and so is my 40 cm Shiro Utsuri. My 72cm Marudo Karashigoi, 56cm Dainichi Sakura Showa, the 61cm Kujaku, and the 55cm Seijuro Showa, have shown signs of recovery. Still bad but slowly recovering is my 55cm Hoshikin Kohaku.

    The positive side of all these, these surviving fishes will be more hardy and will be more immuned to diseases and associated sickness in the future.

    Have a nice day everyone........ :)
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • niveknivek November 2012
    Posts: 1,251
    Abang Shukri, was the pond water changed during the first week of introducing the Kujaku?
  • kolampkolamp November 2012
    Posts: 222
    Did you find out from where your kujaku get the viral infection?
  • ShukriShukri November 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Yup, there were a few water changes........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • kwchankwchan November 2012
    Posts: 131
    Bro Sukhri, how I wish you would have publish this article few days earlier. I just lost a new acquired sanke this morning after suffering the same symptoms few days ago :-(
  • pslongpslong November 2012
    Posts: 288
    Bro sorry to hear that, good luck and wish a fast recovery for the rest of the kois.

    Cheers
  • ShukriShukri November 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro pslong,
    Thanks for the encouraging words.........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • muzamirmuzamir November 2012
    Posts: 254
    Bro Shukri,

    Sorry to hear about this mishap. Hope the rest are recovering fast and doing fine. Take care bro!
  • niveknivek November 2012
    Posts: 1,251
    Ya man..wishing your kois speedy recovery.
  • NeliNeli November 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    Bro Shukri,
    sad to hear that. I had also problems with viral infections and parasites (all parasites U can think of!) it is unbelievable that the japanese breeders can not treat their Koi, before selling them!
    the biggest culprit was Hiroi...not only my fish but the two dealers who came with me experienced the same problems...
    the fish from Hiroi had sleeping sickness...with big difficulties i managed to sort it out...but lost most of my fish from Hiroi...
    thanks God I bought a whole box of tosai...so I have some goshiki left.
    What I want to ask is this:
    if U suspect it is a viral infection?:
    dont U think they can become immune but be able to infect other Koi at the same time?
    Did Your Kujaku suffer the same symptoms as the other fish? If it did, maybe it is not the culprit??? viruses have different incubation time! Some can be dormant for many years...just keep this in mind! they come reactivate after stress!
    do not add it directly to your pond when U decide to...put it in a QT and add some of your fish in the QT first...dont take chances! see how they will be first...and then decide!
  • HDCuHDCu November 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Shukri,

    So sorry for the loss and thanks for sharing

    Some questions:
    1. What was the quarantine procedure perform during the introduction of the kujako?
    2. How many days were the kois fasted after introduction of the kujaku?
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-11-02 04:19:03 pm
  • vivianvivian November 2012
    Posts: 37
    Sorry to hear. Hope situation will be fine soon. Just wanna share if useful for all.


    http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/koipond/viral_disorders.html
  • ShukriShukri November 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Hi Vivian,
    I have read this before also........the problems were not similar to any of these.......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • vivianvivian November 2012
    Posts: 37
    Hi uncle shukri,

    Oic. If not viral then what is it uncle? Or gill disease? Very care to know. banghead
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur November 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Shukri,

    Sorry for your loss. I had been dealing this long time ago, and in my experience most of the cause by stress. Fish in show or during shipment may experience high ammonia tthrough respirattion and urine. Fasting too long actually make fish stress. When fish got stress, it is very easy to get infected. Moving from one water to another water also stressing. Moving from higher pH to drasttic lower pH, from high temp to lower temp, also cause sttress. Many bacteria which stay dormant will attack aand infected the fish within few days. A coller water it will take a while week or so, because bacteria incubation period take longer time to hatch from cyst.

    My method is to sterilize QT water using ozone 1 day before shipment. And when fish arrive, i use water condition to eliminate ammonia in bag, and reoxygen. It is better when packing fish also add this and slime protection water condittioner. After 10-15minutes, take fish out to pond or tank.

    I had been dealing with more delicate fish, mostly wild caught from South American and African which shipment can take 48hours. And when you think Japanese packing is not good, you haven't meet the worst. I have been using the water conditioner for more than 20 years and recently introduce to Yamakoshi and maybe launch soon. This is very good for shipping and koi shows. Previously when sending fish to cust during high season and cargo offload, have tto take back and it is very troublesome. After i use it, just put in cargo warehouse and send the next day.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • vivianvivian November 2012
    Posts: 37
    Maybe u right bro harry. Thanks for explanation.
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar November 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Sifu Shukri,

    Sorry to hear about the mishap. Hope all the other fellows recover soon.

    Just want to share newbie experience:
    My two showa brought back from show by dealer and I collect from dealer after one week QT in their place.
    My QT preparation:
    Fast the entire pond for few days and use the water for QT. I use water conditioner, Kenkona, Vivakoi and 3 tier canister filter with matured bioring and bioball for the QT tub. Daily water change. QT my fish for one week and release to main pond. (Total of 3 weeks of not feeding including preparation for the show).

    Second day the 2 fish started to gulp and flash. I immediately change water and increase salinity to 0.5%. The flashing almost stopped. Then I thought, the fish was not fed and in QT for too long, so started light feeding (some sifu's might not agree). The fish stopped flashing and on feeding frenzy.

    Now after 2 weeks of feeding, these fish from the show is the leader pack. They even on hand feed. :-D

    What Bro Harry says might be true as well. Too long QT also can be stress to the koi.
  • niveknivek November 2012
    Posts: 1,251
    Here's my newbie method for new additions.

    If its a female - 10% water change within first 2 hours after addition into pond. Reason for the water change is there will be some sort of chemical secretion either by the new female addition or the current pond inhabitants. I can actually smell the water change within the first 2 hours. Subsequently change every 10% every 2 hours till total about 40% water changed in first day. 2nd day about 30% spread throughout the day and finally on 3rd day 20%. My pond is small so I can do this and chemical changes in my pond can quickly be detected. I do not add any salt or medication. However I fast my resident fish before and after addition but only 1 day before and 1 day after.

    If its a male fish - same as above but water changes is halved. Some how less chemical reaction if its a male fish.

    I don't know how to explain it but by observing and through smell, you will know if the water is going south. One more thing, I perform Reiki sending once fish is released into pond.
    Post edited by nivek at 2012-11-02 10:24:21 pm
  • smokersmoker November 2012
    Posts: 715
    Bro Shukri, so sorry for the lost of your friend. Appreciate and thanks alot for sharing this experience, that i may take note and anticipate the same mishap may happen in the future to me. Hope the rest will recover soon and safely.
  • nocturnalnocturnal November 2012
    Posts: 376
    sorry for ur lost Abang Shukri & hope the rest are recovering well
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur November 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Shukri,

    How big is QT pond and how many pcs you put there? All new fishes from he show?
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • gerrygerry November 2012
    Posts: 777
    Such an unfortunate event... :(

    Hope the rest recovers soon abang Shukri.. :)
  • ShukriShukri November 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Hi Gerry,
    You have been real quiet of late........so how are your kois? Check on them regularly as it rains daily.

    The fishs that survive are on the roads to recovery. 5 fishes have since died and belong to a koi kichi friend. Those are Show quality fishes........real sad though!

    Hope the rest will recover and back to health soon.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • gerrygerry November 2012
    Posts: 777
    Abang Shukri, most of the posts I read only... Don't comment much..

    Kois are fine... Just posted my not so new additions on my thread.. can go see. :)

    Good to hear ur fishes are recovering. ;)
  • ShukriShukri November 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    I have heard numerous issues and fatalities of newly acquired kois. Please be extra careful when quarantining new kois. Please do it with care.......

    I suspect new pathogen in the habitat........ Just be extra careful!
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.

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