Sick Kois in Quarantin
  • jtlee0611jtlee0611 October 2012
    Posts: 6
    Hi Koi Experts.
    Two weeks ago, I bought three 16" kois from a private koi hobbyist (Shusui, Ogon, Platinum). All of them looked perfect physical condition upon inspection a close range. I quarantined them as follows:

    1st Day:
    1.put three kois in 80 gallons Qtank made out of bathtub
    2.overhead filter/ airpump
    2.0.1% salt

    2nd Day:
    1.Methylene Blue

    3rd Day: I planned to put Dimilin but I was shocked to discover that all of them:
    1.remained motionless at bottom with clamped fins
    2.covered with white grain-like spots (not tiny white spots) like table rock salts (2-3mm) all over the body

    I quickly did the following:
    1. separate the three kois in 3 Qtanks (80gals/ 40gals/ 40gals)
    2. put Ocean Free (cure all for Arowana medication)

    4th Day:
    1. Platinum - died with both gill plate wide opened
    2. Shushui - 50% of white granules disappeared/ still remained at bottom but with opened fins
    3. Ogon - 50% of white granules disappeared/ very active and friendly and waiting to be fed

    5th - 6th Day:
    1. Made water changes and dose same amount of Ocean Free & Salt
    2. Koishops and friends warned me of overdosing and suggested that I do daily water changes instead of continued medication.
    3. I stop Ocean Free, do daily water changes and maintained o.1% salt

    One Week Later: TODAY (Oct 29, 2012)
    1. Shusui - White grain like spots totally gone/ small fin tip rot did not grow back/ Open fins/ Stay at bottom but occasionally swim around/ eats only when I am not around
    2. Ogon - 10% white granules remain/ very active/ great appetite and would feed from my hands (limit to 3pellets morning and 3 pellets afternoon).
    3. Continued daily 10% water changes and maintained 0.1% salt.

    QUESTIONS
    1. What are those White Granules. I know "white spots" are tiny even smaller than fine sugar, but these are much bigger like rock salt.
    2. What must I do for next 7 dyas?

    a. continue daily 10% water changes without medication?
    b. water changes and repeat does of Ocean Free(cure all) medicine, after all, it saved two of them?
    c. add Dimilin?
    d. set them free to main pond?

    Any advice from you will be greatly appreciated!

    joeylee
  • ShukriShukri October 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro, sounds like Argulus to me i.e. fish lice..........parasite.

    Put 2 grams of Dimilin per metric ton of water, let it soak for 5 days. Do not feed during the medication period. Then change water. After 3 to 5 days, I would recommend a second dosage so that the eggs which should hatch by now are being taken care off in the second dosage......

    Hope this helps......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-10-29 02:14:45 pm
  • HDCuHDCu October 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi Joey,

    First of all welcome to koianswers. You have communicated with me before thru email if you can still remember.

    Anyway, many different hobbyist have different ways on how to quarantine.
    Here is my technique.
    1. I ask the dealer to stop feeding at least three days before I collect fish. A fish that has been fasted have better immune system compared to a well fed one.
    2. Once I collect fish from dealer, I ask dealer to put a little elbagin( yellow powder)in the plastic to calm the fish during transport and to kill any bacteria in the water. A less stress fish produce much less ammonia.
    3. In the QT, there is always a test fish swimming. The Qt tank has very high oxygenation ( the higher the better) and preferably at least one ton size for the fish to move and to buffer nitrite spike. The test fish is not also fed three days before entry of new quarantine fish. Filter should be mature to handle any ammonia and should be cleaned before entry of new qt fish.
    4. Once new fish arrive, I have the plastic float for fifteen minutes to acclimate temperature.
    5. While waiting, I dump salt upto 0.3percent and then put 10grams of elbagin per ton of water.
    6. I release the new koi to the QT tank WITHOUT the water from the plastic.
    7. I wait and dont feed for a week and then observe.
    8. I do constant trickle to dilute the water of around 10 to 15 percent a day.
    9. After a week and if I did not observe any problems I will then put the new koi in the pond. If there is still flashing within the week, I will put seachem paraguard to make sure and delay for another week but feed lightly already.

    For your question, I would continue to do do 10 percent water change a day for another week, check your ammonia and nitrite, add to 0.3 percent salt( so that the koi develop a thick slime coat that will cause any small parasites to fall off while the higher salt would dehydrate most parasites.. I would put dimilin if you see it is really argulus.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-10-29 02:39:34 pm
  • ashfaqashfaq October 2012
    Posts: 799
    Brother is it possible to show the photo of the bacteria/something like rock salt which you are saying, atleast google picture will help us to understand what it is?
    Thanks,
    Ashfaq from India-Chennai
  • jtlee0611jtlee0611 October 2012
    Posts: 6
    Hi SHUKRI, HDCu and Ashfaq,

    Thank you so much for your prompt reply and very helpful advices.

    I forgot to mention one thing I made which I think all of you might agree it was a BIG BOOBOO for somebody who has been keeping kois for 9 years.

    BOOBOO: THIS I NEVER DID BEFORE:
    1. 2 days before the 3 new kois arrive, I just completed quarantine for another koi (without any disease or problem) and had put him into main pond.
    2. Instead of mixing pond 50% pond water and 50% tap water, I retained 50% "used" water from Q-tank and mixed it with 50% fresh water.
    3. I thought it would be safer this way because I thought:
    - the old water in Q-tank were already medicated
    - since the Koi that had completed quarantine did not show any sign of sickness, the water must be safe
    - it would be safer to mix old medicated water from Q-tank than to mix pond water because bacterias and parasites always exist in ponds

    Q. By doing so, the three new Kois must have been infected by the other koi that had just completed Quarantine 2 days ago?
    Q. If it is so, how come the koi that had been quarantined earlier did not show any sign of disease?

    Thank you again <:)(((<

    joey

    HDCu, are you Homer?
  • jtlee0611jtlee0611 October 2012
    Posts: 6
    Hi SHUKRI, HDCu, Ashfaq and koi experts,

    Attached is photo of the koi infected with White Granule.

    Photo #1 (digitally edited) is how the Koi look when cover with many white granule like rock salt
    Phot- #2 (actual photo) is how the Koi look today. About 50% of the white thing disappeared. On the remaining ones, the inner portion disappear leaving the outer portion. Hopefully, all will be gone soon.

    Q1: Should I retain him is Qtank or put him in main pond already
    Q2: If I retain him in Q-tank, should I put additional medicine or just simply do daily 10% water changes which I am doing now... with salt

    Thank you for your advices.
  • HDCuHDCu October 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi Jose,

    Yes its me Homer.
    the medicine is working fine. Do quarantine her more time until such time there is no more white spots. I dont think its parasites but bacteria and stressed immune system. Adding medicine will speed up the process but salt 0.3percent with lots of aeration and comstant water change is ok as well.
  • jtlee0611jtlee0611 October 2012
    Posts: 6
    Hi Homer,

    Thank you for your help.

    Clarification lang. i stopped the Ocean Free (all cure med for Arowanas) after seeing the good results in 3 days. It has been 7 days since then and all I did was daily water changes and maintain salt level.

    Q.1 Would that 3-day does be sufficient or should I redo the OceanFree med?
    Q.2 There seem to be no sign or Argulus or Anchor. SHould I still put Dimilin?
    Q.3 There is still about 1/3 inch part of tail tip missing. Should I wait till the tip grow back or can I put it to main pond when all the white spots disappear?
    Q.4 Have you ever seem this kind of disease (as seen in pix). I have never experience it before with my kois nor seen it at the internet.

    many thanks again,
  • HDCuHDCu October 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi Jose,

    1. safe Medicine should be at least a week instead of just three days.
    2. no need to put dimilin
    3. No need to wait for tail to grow back. Just make sure the white spots are gone to be sure.
    4. I think it is similar to a certain degree to carp pox but I am not sure. Your digital enhance pictures is not helping. hehe.
  • jtlee0611jtlee0611 October 2012
    Posts: 6
    Hi Homer,

    Actually, one of the white granule remained in the actual photo. so I shouldn't have digitally enhance it but simply draw a circle around it so you would know.

    Thank you so much!

    Jose
  • kolampkolamp October 2012
    Posts: 222
    Is the koi white spots occur due to parasites are the same with marine fishes white spots? If its so, probably copper treatment can be used to remove the parasites as what they did to marine fishes during quarantine session....Correct me if I'm wrong...

    Chopped garlics are also served as food to boost up the immune system but no scientifically proven report so far....
  • jtlee0611jtlee0611 November 2012
    Posts: 6
    i really don't know... I have never seen something like dat before... that is why I am asking advices from our koi experts out there and they have been very helpful <:)(((<

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