Would you send your kois to a Mud Pond stinct?
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    This will be an interesting topic to be discussed. Also, I would like to hear the view points from the Mud Pond operator themselves; the good, the bad and the ugly.

    Cheers.........
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  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar August 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Sifu Shukri,

    Yes, I would. Just put in 3 of my collection into mud pond. Their growth so far is good and the color has improved a lot. The harvest is around November. Would update before and after photos after the harvest.

    Putting our Koi in mud pond is always a gamble as there are many pro's and con's

    By putting in mud pond, from what I read before, below are the pro's:
    1) Impressive growth
    2) Good color development
    3) Increase Koi immune system

    But there are always a side effects. Below are the con's:
    1) Risk of FB2J
    2) Risk of loosing body pattern or color
    3) Can't see a injured Koi or infected koi. Some owner treat the whole pond on regular basis to prevent this

    2 cents from a newbie :-D
  • wongyengwongyeng August 2012
    Posts: 238
    Bro kumar,
    Can u elaborate on :
    1) Risk of FB2J
    2) Risk of loosing body pattern or color

    Thank you :D
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar August 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro Wongyeng,
    1) Certain Koi could not adopt to the mud pond environment although they have been there initially. That's why, all the mud pond operator do not guarantee you if it FB2J and you have to take risk when putting in. You also can't see if the Koi are sick as the water is muddy color. As such, if there is bacteria outbreak, and the pond is not regularly treated, the Koi would FB2J.
    2) If the Koi have a weak beni, sumi, it might break due to high growth. Not all pond are suitable for non-gosanke. There were cases which I read that Asagi loose the blie pattern, shusui loose the bone pattern and etc.

    But at the same time, the Koi which survived all the above and safely harvested, would have marvelous color and good body growth. So it is a worth gambling.
  • tomatomoontomatomoon August 2012
    Posts: 97
    Bro Wongyeng MHO on Bthineshkumar risk of FB2J = fly back to Japan.
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117

    Interesting topic.

    Here's my thought on the subject matter.

    There are no reputable mud pond operator here so far that has a reputation of growing quality japanese nishikigois. I mention two descriptions namely "reputation" which implies track record and experience in proper feeding, caring, etc. for a good risk/reward compromise and "growing quality" which is self explanatory. There is no point in achieving fast growth with an end result of poor skin and color quality.

    How about paying for an azukari fee in Japan? If you only paid for a US$500 to a thousand dollar tosai, wouldn't it be wiser to pay for the additional US$500 to thousand dollar azukari fee for a quality upgrade instead. Sure, you will say that at least I only got to pay for just 1000 to 1500 dollars for a decent grown nisai instead of paying for a 2000 dollar nisai. True, but those that intentionally kept by breeders as nisai are categorized as higher quality by the breeder in the first placed as such one cannot really match. Of course, there are a few exceptions that the cheaper prized one may turned out even better.

    How about if you just spend the azukari fee for a higher quality fish instead? If one has the facilities and the skills thats even better. You may not achieve faster growth rate but growing quality koi takes patience. Also, you get to see for yourself how good you are. Worst that can happen is you end up paying a 2000 dollar tiution fee.

    How about a 5000 to 10000 or more dollar tosai or nisai? Here the azukari fee percentage as compared to the cost of the fish is considerably less as the value of the koi increases. This makes the azukari fee more worthwhile as one is putting the expertise of at least maintaining or better yet improving the quality of the koi for just an additional markup of the cost of the koi as compared to the probably risk of devaluing the koi. A dealer once mentioned his top quality very expensive tosai kohaku when it arrived in his facilities suffered from mysterious ailment where quality deteriorated and despite his best effort, it still died. Maybe it would had been a wiser choice to just pay for the azukari fee for a year for the expensive koi to develop its immune system better. Mudpond afterall have the added benefits of improving the immune system of the koi, something a closed system concrete pond cant seem to duplicate.
  • grinkz01grinkz01 August 2012
    Posts: 530
    i do believe the magic of mudpond...rich of natural food, big space to move, green water but unfortunately rich of disease & predator risk also....
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    I believe for Tosais, the Mud Pond will do wonders. And the bigger kois will get the bulk....
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  • mrkoimrkoi August 2012
    Posts: 496
    Hereby some of the pro's and con's about Azukari Mudpond stinct :

    Pro's :

    1) In a mud pond there is usually more soil and beneficial organisms. Less poo to soil ratio. And more water for dilution.

    2) Mudpond contains many naturally occurring minerals, clays and provides many trace elements that koi needs in developing their potential.

    3) During inside the mudpond, Koi will develop their antibody and improve their immune system. Therefore, the kois will be more resistance to disease and healthier.

    4) Mudpond with a good quality of mountain water also can improves koi skin quality, much richer in colour (more vivid and shining), increase their appetite and usually can grow faster. So "Azukari" is ideal for people who want a bigger fish. Faster.”

    5) There was so many natural food inside a mudpond. So the fish can "grow naturally" which I strongly believe is a good way to slowly develop a future fish to its potential. While in concrete pond, usually you have to increase your feeding rate since the fish is 100% depend on the food/pellet given by us. Some fish may grow faster inside a concrete pond due to the high feeding rate compare to the mudpond. But there is a side-effect if the fish grow too fast. And I believe this will also shortening the life span of the fish. "Fast-grow" inside a mudpond is not the same way as "fast-grow" inside a concrete pond.

    Con's :

    1) Upon requesting Azukari, Koi owners must understand that Azukari comes with the risk of the mud pond environment, natural disasters, and other acts of God.

    2) There is no guarantee the fish will even grow as big as you want or make the changes you visoned or even change sex. The development of any fish also depend on their genetics and bloodline of their parent.

    Post edited by mrkoi at 2012-08-23 08:17:45 pm
  • wongyengwongyeng August 2012
    Posts: 238
    Thanks for the clarifications bros.. Will the good effects of the mud pond be permanent or will the koi revert back to its "original" condition after that ?
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Wongyeng,
    That is a 'bad ass' question? :-)) :-D Based on my experience, the quality will stay. Whether it will improve further or deteriorate........all depends on your husbandry skills....

    I have a few that I have sent to the Mud Pond before. Immediately after the harvest, the coloration especially the Beni kind of drop a bit. Then after 2 to 3 weeks, the color improved tremendously........and ready for Show........
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    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-08-23 11:22:21 pm
  • wongyengwongyeng August 2012
    Posts: 238
    Bro Shukri, Thanks for the clarifications. :D

    Reason why I asked is tt when I kept arrowanas, there is a technique known as White Tank Treatment which artifically accelerates the "gold" of the arrowana but the effect does not last when you transfer the arrowana back to the black or blue tank. Moral of the story is that quality also comes with good genes... and this comes back to the issue of $$$ (in reference to what bro HDCu mentioned) :P
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Wong,
    Bloodline or genetics is utmost important......... To me, any koi to reach Jumbo hood, genetics is a must. Small and short Oyagois can only remotely (possibly one in a million) produce fries with Jumbo potential.

    A pretty mum with a Handsome father, can produce beautiful children.......but also can produce not pretty children. But the chances for pretty looking children are higher. The same goes to non pretty parents, the chances to produce pretty children are a lot less.... :-D
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  • smokersmoker August 2012
    Posts: 715
    I think I will trust my kois to a professional and experienced mudpond operator.
    I'm tempted too, but I'm still trying to understand about mudpond,
    My friend's 6000 tons mud pond just had all kois (around 100 pcs) wiped out.
    Some are good pieces.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Shukri,

    I remember movie TWIN with Arnold and Danny Devito.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • wongyengwongyeng August 2012
    Posts: 238
    Bro smoker, care to elaborate what happened at your friend's 6000ton mud pond ?? :O
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    I suspect an outbreak of either bateria or parasite........possibly brought by the kois themselves.........
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  • smokersmoker August 2012
    Posts: 715
    Bro Wongyeng, it's a disease outbreak. But I have no idea of the cause.
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    The Mud Pond operator in Ulu Langat is a strict fella..........no males, and only guaranteed female only. The fishes will be quarantined by him before releasing to the Mud Pond. New arrivals from Japan will not be considered. Only fishes from the owners' pond are OK or the fishes have been in Malaysia for a while.

    Azmi @ MrKoi, please correct me if I am wrong.........
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  • mrkoimrkoi August 2012
    Posts: 496
    Bro Shukri,

    You're 100% right. Thanks for bringing it up.

    Bro smoker,

    Maybe you could ask your fren either :

    1) Is there any new addition into the mudpond ?
    2) Did your fren change the fish diet ?
    3) Did your fren check the water source parameters ?
    4) How long the fish already inside the mudpond and when was the last harvest took place before the outbreak ?
    4) Did the fish show any unnatural behaviour before the disease outbreak ?
  • smokersmoker August 2012
    Posts: 715
    Bro mrkoi,
    I did not ask, i've visited his mudponds few months ago with other friend who went there putting new kois (after quarantine). He is a kind fellow and welcome any friend who want to keep kois in his mudponds. He has some mudponds, few used for kois now, and others are used for other fishes.

    I think it's due to experience, as this is one of his first time with koi.

    He is an easy going fellow, after all kois in this mudpond died, he asked his working guys to lift all and sort on the ground making rows like soldiers, then took pictures and send to friends. :-))
  • AnuarAnuar August 2012
    Posts: 688
    Dear Bros and Sis,

    For discussion, after weighing the pros and cons, do you mind sharing what are your criteria before selecting kois for the mud pond stint:

    - Your best koi?
    - Most expensive ones?
    - The skinny ones?
    - The bulky ones?
    - With poor skins?
    - With poor confirmation?
    - Shy vs good eaters?

    etc.

    Thanks.
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Anuar,
    As for me, I chose two kois......a Marudo Karashigoi and a Sakura Showa. For the Karashigoi, I want it to bulk and grow as big as it can, while for the Showa, I want the Beni to be enhanced and the Sumi to tighten up.....I will take the before and the after pictures.

    I want this Karashigoi to be as bid as it can be........ :-D
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    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-08-27 07:03:16 pm
  • idrisidris August 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    bro shukri...im planning to send my 74cm yamabuki ogon to the mudpond..what do you think??
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Idris,
    Go for it..........no harm.
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  • AnuarAnuar August 2012
    Posts: 688
    Bro Idris,

    I think, provided the ogon is not a shy eater, she will really thrive in mud pond...
  • idrisidris August 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    bro anuar..my ogon sapu both sinking and floating food...i guess not a shy eater..is there any possibilities it could go jumbo within 6 month in mud pond? i mean by logic and estimation only..
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    I am quite sure that the Ogon will bulk and put on the mass........
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  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Idris,
    Your Ogon is already 74cm, and at this size.......it will take time before it reaches 80cm. What you should be looking for is the bulkiness. You should be real happy if the Ogon add another 3 - 5 cm.
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    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-08-27 08:08:20 pm
  • pandaipandai August 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Bro Shukri, Bro MrKoi,
    If we're sending tosais, how are you going to ensure that they are female before being put in the pond with the next mudpond batch?
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • mrkoimrkoi August 2012
    Posts: 496
    Bro pandai,

    Their sex must be determine 1st. Any chance that if the tosai shows any sign of male character, then I would not take a risk to accept in order to avoid any accidental spawning inside the mudpond.
  • pandaipandai August 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Ok bro MrKoi. Noted and thanks. I just hope that my selected tosai will pass the test and get a placement into the mudpond school.... [-O< :-D
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Correct if I am wrong,
    A Tosai plus another 5 to 6 months, even though male, I do not believe it is ready to produce milt and help spawning. Unless those are Nisais or Sansais with Tosais bodies.......
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  • mrkoimrkoi August 2012
    Posts: 496
    It true but we can never really confirm either the fish really a tosai or more older than that just base on their size. Precaution is better than take any risk.
    Post edited by mrkoi at 2012-08-28 07:27:20 am
  • megatronmegatron August 2012
    Posts: 832
    Does it mean that those claimed to be Tosai that we sex with milt maybe ake nisai or nisai? When is the maturity age for male koi?
    Don't ask me why!!!
  • mrkoimrkoi August 2012
    Posts: 496
    Thats why jumbo tosai price tag is very much higher than normal tosai. The first 3-6 months after spawning, you can see the different growth rate between jumbo tosai and normal tosai. And when the male tosai still small in size, they may not disturb the female. But after few months GO in mudpond and become bigger in size, they may start trying to mate and chasing the female.

    Usually maturity age for koi is around 2 years old but they may start having the milt when they are in tosai stage especially the male jumbo tosai. And during tosai stage, usually male will growth faster than female.

    I believe you cannot determine the age of the fish just base on their size. Because some fish can growth faster while many other fishes will having a natural or slow growth rate.
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro MrKoi,
    I would appreciate it (based on your experience), what would be the growth like with the following:

    1) Tosai of 25 to 30 cm
    2) Kois of 50 cm
    3) Kois of 60 cm
    4) Kois of 70 cm

    Any difference between Gosankes and Non Gosankes?
    And any history with Karashigois........

    If you care to share your experience and your observations with us, I would really appreciate it.........
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  • mrkoimrkoi August 2012
    Posts: 496
    Bro Shukri,

    Base on my experience, the overall growth rate with a normal feeding rate
    as per below :

    1) Tosai of 25 to 30 cm >> 40cm-50cm
    2) Kois of 50 cm >> 55cm-60cm+
    3) Kois of 60 cm >> 65cm-70cm+
    4) Kois of 70 cm >> 73cm-78cm+
    (*the growth rate may higher if your feeding rate is high)

    Overall boths Gosanke and and Non-Gosanke showed good growth rate inside the mudpond. But specifically, their growth rate depends on the fish characters itself like good/shy eater, sex, age, bloodline and their previous growth history (like a "bantut" fish or not).
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    So there is no point to send a known 'stunted' fish to the Mud Pond then.....
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    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-08-28 06:29:35 pm
  • mrkoimrkoi August 2012
    Posts: 496
    Maybe but anything can happen when inside the mudpond. Need to have more specimens to test.
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    I am praying hard that the two pieces that I will be putting in the Mud Pond will thrive and do well.......... :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-08-28 07:01:21 pm

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