Comment on koi acquisition
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Hello friends,

    All comments welcome. Newly acquired. This is my 1st step into pure bred Nishikigoi category. From a nice guy who is helping me out getting into the hobby, tq! My photography skills on my blackberry do not do much justice...sorry

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8869/kohakushowa.jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8870/kohakushowa1.jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8871/kohakushowa2.jpg

    Can anyone also advise me what is this insect, white in colour very small like an ant, that was found living in my BH when i cleaned out my filter yesterday. There are thousands of these little creatures...all cleaned now, but wonder what it is???

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8872/insect in pond.jpg
    Post edited by Ssmann at 2012-08-16 10:30:38 am
  • niveknivek August 2012
    Posts: 1,251
    Good that you started this thread as I'm a newbie too. I love the showa! :)
  • kwchankwchan August 2012
    Posts: 131
    I think for kohaku, the head is too 'bald', it would be nicer if with some hi on it.
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    thanks bro kwchan....i wished i could paint some Hi on it.....hehehehe...if it was that simple huh????
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    thanks bro Nivek...no probs...we all learn together
  • idrisidris August 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Nice koi bro...but then again it is best you identified what is your objective in koi keeping.

    1. satisfied with pond grade koi
    2. want to have show grade koi and enter koi show or
    3. want to have show grade koi and enjoy it yourself...

    This will help you on selecting koi..
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Thanks bro Idris. Definitely 3, ie no shows for me (i doubt my interest in this hobby will ever get me to bag a koi to a show, will take alot bro), just want to see nice beautiful and elegant koi when I get home after a hard days work. Reasonably priced koi, that may not have the perfect 10/10, but with good genes to help me appreciate its beauty. That's my objective....tq bro!
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    more importantly, does anyone know what that white ant like creature is????
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Ssmann,
    With time, I am sure you will acquire the skills to differentiate the levels of kois, both in quality and size. You will soon appreciate the quality ones versus the average kois. Once you know what to look for, the hobby will be at a different level. All of us go through the different phases.......The faster you learn, the better will be the kois that you acquire.....

    Cheers bro........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    About the white creature, can't confirm as the photo is not so clear.......with a better picture, we can confirm for you........
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  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Shukri, i could not agree more with you on skills exhilarate appreciation and thus move into compulsion stage!! Hahahaha....i was there a few years ago with classic cars collection, when my son was born, got rid of all bar 2 of my priced babies.....and I thot that was an expensive hobby...till I came to know kois!!!!!
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Brother Ssmann,
    It does not matter what it is, as long as it is a 'HOBBY,' you have to pay the price!!!.......they are expensive!.......All the hobbies that I have indulged myself in, are all expensive so far (how I wish they are cheap!).....$$$$ (RM)! e.g. motobikes, remote control cars, photography, knives collections, archery, ping pong (a good paddle is more than RM1,000)........and Koi Keeping. :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-08-16 01:31:03 pm
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Shukri..agreed. Wished I could just go back to my "guli" collection during school days....that was an awesome hobby based on winning and barter....wished life was less complicated, but alas...we have our needs and wants and it comes with a price tag!
    Post edited by Ssmann at 2012-08-16 01:31:09 pm
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    The kohaku looks like a male. Its noticeably red eye and clean head for a beni would suggest that this should have been culled early on by the breeder so by deductive reasoning it probably used to have some beni on its head that receeded probably because of stress. However, even if its probably a male, this kohaku can still grow long with good body conformation if fed right.

    The showa is a better looking piece with balance pattern and good body conformation for a showa. The only problem is the secondary hi. If the secondary hi would increase and fill up more of the shiroji then it then make this koi look "special" .
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro HDCu, thanks for your very well articulated points! U r spot on with the kohaku, the cert picture shows beni on the head. I appreciate your reasoning. I will continue to feed a balance of growth and colour food Saki Hikari.

    Thanks for the comments on showa. I hope she grows gracefully.

    I actually was offered 4 to 5 kois, but only picked these 2. My eye caught them immediately. Taste is in the beholder.

    Eg, I think Angelina Jolie is hot, especially when she acted in The Tourist...not sure everyone would agree, but for me I give her 9.5/10...still room for improvement...hehehehehehe....ss out!
    Post edited by Ssmann at 2012-08-17 02:16:11 pm
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Angelina is a 10.5/10 to me like in the 'Tomb Raider'......... :-)) :-D
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    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-08-17 04:32:30 pm
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Serjit, come to my pond, u will get a crash course in koi ponds and koi too. Don't make the mistake all of us make la, spend on koi to find out is the wrong koi!!
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro James,
    You have Jacky as your Sifu aaar! No wonder your collections are good these days........
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  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bros, intro new kois, 1st day all happy. 2nd day old kois parked. Yesterday all kois except for Ochiba parked with fins clamped and vigorous flashing. Reduced salt to 0.08 percent and dosed kenkona. No marked improvement yet. Some of the scales have decoloration due to the flashing. Will these ever get better and colour return? This is the one part of the hobby that is so frustrating. Previous owner quarantined koi for a week and fasted. I hope they get better soon...
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bbro Shukri, AGREE.

    I name my girl Angelina after her too. Mana tahan liat dia punya lips.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro shukri and Harry, glad we all agree on angelina...hahahahaha! Keep all fantasies private though....hahahahah
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro James, tq. I'll pop bye soon over the long weekend, tq
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Shukri, I had many sifus. U inclusive. My Showa picks follows your guidelines. And i mix and match the guidelines and from rojak I decide what I want in my koi. Hahahaha...

    A lot of hobbyist never learn as quickly I associate to 2 reasons, firstly they hear but not listen and secondly they sometimes don't buy enough of quality to recognise quality perhaps. To associate koi choice to price solely I think is not always right.

    And perhaps they were not lucky as I was who had sifus like yourself at the right timing... Btw, u've not been to my pond. Maybe kois will not b as impressive in real.... banghead
    Post edited by James at 2012-08-18 01:32:42 pm
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro James,
    I will be visiting your pond real soon, after Raya.
    What you have said about kois in general are very true.
    And the favorite punch line, 'Good kois are seldom cheap, while cheap kois are seldom good.'

    But there are kois that are RM100 or RM150 that have blossomed from ugly ducklings into swan. Possible varieties are Shiro Utsuris and Showa Sanshoku.......
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  • kwchankwchan August 2012
    Posts: 131
    Since sifus are talking about quality and pricing, wonder is there any guidelines to determine whether a fish offer is cheap, medium or high pricing? Example using rm1k to buy a tosai for normal people may consider expensive, but for deep pocket hobbyist, it maybe just kacang only.
    So, what should be a general criteria to tell a tosai with certain size, shape, pattern etc should worth at range of $????
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro kwchan,
    A very good question which is really difficult to answer. There are Tosais out there ranging from less than RM100 (those cheap sale ones), about RM300, RM500, RM800, RM1000, RM3000, RM5000 and above RM5000.

    If you are buying just for pond koi purposes then possibly it would not be so difficult to buy value for money. You can buy relatively cheap and bargain kois because possibly they have very good patterns but not very good body conformation, or relatively good body but no good pattern of not so good coloration.

    But it get to be very tricky and expensive if you are acquiring potential Show quality kois. Good bloodline (from proven Oyagois), tell tale that show potentially superb body conformation, good color and good skin quality. Go to the thread that discusses 'How to choose a Tosai'.........

    But if you are patient enough, and have the eye that know what to look for in a Tosai, you can get a potential Show Tosai even at RM100 a piece, but this does not happen every day. Possibly once in a blue moon.

    But if you have the money, then go ahead and buy the Jumbo Tosai Tategois.......surely a future potential koi. But then again, you have to have very good husbandary skills in order to develop, enhance and finish the koi in the future.

    Whenever you want to acquire new potential kois, the next time bring a Sifu along with you.....
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  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro kwchan, I personally believe price is subjective. If I were to draw a parallel, take cars for eg. Every boy grows up to want to own a sports car someday, at least I am one of those boys. It all depends on the pocket and what one wants to fork out. One can choose from a Ferrari, Porsche, Aston martin, M series BMW or Merc AMG's etc. but if I were to pick a sports car that is so well rounded and not gonna cost me an arm and a leg but yet beat almost any road worthy passenger car, I'd pick the Nissan GTR R35. I like to think the same with koi....one mans joy can be anothers annoyance. My 2 cents. Koi kichis pls don't shoot me....I'm still not beaten by koi mania yet....hahahahahaha
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Ssmann,
    Brother, no one is going to chew you up!.......Everyone has their opinions...........and the best are the ones that are shared. In fact I encourange the newbies to speak up, ask questions and provide feedbacks.
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  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro KW, my definition of whether a koi is cheap or expensive is how much it is potentially worth and how much it is actually priced. To understand this better you would have to do some serious shopping and start comparing. But not just in terms of price of koi but quality that comes with it. For example a good quality show kohaku, anything below 2k is very affordable. Sometimes u might find a terribly good quality piece and it is priced 3k, it should not be considered expensive. Because it is at a quality level that u would have had to pay more normally. Similarly, a RM200 kohaku cannot be considered cheap because it may be of terribly lousy quality that may have cost RM50.

    So u must recognise quality and the price attached to them. Then u will master the skill of picking and determining the fair price level.
  • kwchankwchan August 2012
    Posts: 131
    Thanks are the sifu comments and sharing, it's really helpful from all the info shared.
    Well, for me I'm definitely not the kind of deep pocket person, but once infected by the Koi virus, sure would also love to dream of having a show quality Koi with the shallow pocket that can afford. With patience and time that's more than money now, think I can inly be like what bro sukri say, train more eye skill to spend rm100 to tikam slip out potential show quality tosai that appear during blue moon time :-))

    Bro James, from your statement :
    ' must recognise quality and the price attached to them. Then u will master the skill of picking and determining the fair price level'
    Sure the skill to recognize the quality is still a long journey to achieve, but to recognize the pricing might be a easier one IMHO. As long as we know the Japanese breeders fish culling frequency and criteria, we should at least can guess the batch arrival fishes pricing, right? Eg.let say Sakai cull their tosai 5 times per spawning, sure the first culling will be the lowest grade and cheapest follow by second, third culling and so on. So, if we have the info like 1st cull tosai ranging maybe rm10 per fish (breeder's price) then we should roughly estimate that when the local dealer import and start selling this batch of fish, the reasonable price should be ranging from rm50-100. So, the questions is does anyone know what's the culling criteria, frequency and if possible pricing, then we should at least have an idea how should the fish priced by dealer consider reasonable or not, right?
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro KW, not comparing between culls but generally would be a better method. I think everyone should have at least a good specimen in their ponds and then compare the rest with that. Easiest and fastest way to learn. Of course if your specimen is a low grade koi then the journey will take longer because comparison is on the wrong basis.
  • niveknivek August 2012
    Posts: 1,251
    In other words hentam 1 expensive proven, certified bloodline koi and compare the rest of your bunch against that. I foresee 2 outcomes - (1) you'll cull the rest of your kois and (2) you'll start eating bread and water to start buying those tategoi kois hahahha
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Expensive is relative bro. Nobody said anything about spending crazy. Just yesterday I saw an unbelievable Sakai kohaku. 1.8k with cert. Clean sashi n kiwa, even beni and splendid 4 step pattern.
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar August 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Well said bro Nivek :-))
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bros TK and Nivek,
    Bread and butter are food for the physical self while the acquired quality kois will be the food for the eyes.......... :-)) :-D
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  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    For the soul bro Shukri
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Hahahahaha.....good discussion.....
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Reading and discussing rarely improves koi picking. U have to see it for yourself!! All the knowledge in the world cannot help anyone pick koi because no 2 koi are identical. And in the rash of kois arriving, most cannot think straight..... hearts pounding and wanting to get the best piece before they are snapped up.

    I picked these 2 after everyone had their chance at the new arrival bags.

  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro James,
    A good pick with the Showa.......Many of the good attributes of a Show are evident in this koi..... You surely have a good set of eyes.............all four....... :-)) :-D
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  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Shukri, what I was trying to show the newbies (although I am still one myself :-)) ) is that koi and how good they are, are not just about the wallet and certs. It is about knowing quality when u see them. And when u do, do not hesitate if the price tag is not as high or comes without cert.

    So, when bro nivek mentioned hentam 1 expensive koi with certified and proven bloodline, I think it took the explanation out of proportion a little. Unlike the deep pocketed, most of us buy tosais or nisais. And no matter how expensive they are at this stage they are also no guarantee of turning out well.

    I think key will be again buying something good and using that as a benchmark. That way kois being added to the collection will always improve the collection. We can also easily learn why and if the other kois are not as good.

    Culling is another issue all together.
  • niveknivek August 2012
    Posts: 1,251
    Humor needs a little cultivation here.... :)
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Nivek, oops! Dun get me wrong. Not that humor is missing. Just that it's not how expensive the kois are that gets to be defined by high quality. I've also bought expensive kois before with cert and all but turned out crap!

    What I am trying to say is if your budget is RM100 and a very good kois presents itself to you at RM150, but worth RM500, surely most of us can cough out another RM50. Rather than to buy a RM100 koi but actually only worth RM50 in terms of its quality.
  • niveknivek August 2012
    Posts: 1,251
    Haha no harm done bro James and fully agree with your views :)
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Nivek, my method is not the only method. Many other sifus buy differently. :-)) :-)) Find one that works for you and stick to it. Key is to be objective about what works? Most of us benchmark with koi show standards. Some with growth in shortest period of time. Some with just jumbohood. So there is not just 1 right method.

    All these brings us back to first base right... b-(
  • kwchankwchan August 2012
    Posts: 131
    Hi bro James, I believe the 2 kois you show are still a 20-30cm tosai, right?
    it's a good example about my purpose of asking quality vs price. Definitely these 2 pcs, especially the showa is a very good quality fish, even newbie like me at a first glance also know about it and also I think I don't need to have a pool of so so quality kois I also able to tell how good looking it is
    so, the next question now is for such quality fish, what should a reasonable price range? Would it be in 3,4 (1,2,3....9K range) or up to 5 digits range? As mentioned that for a shallow pocket person like Mr who only has max 3 digit budget, it you tell me that such quality fish normal price range is in let say >2k, then I think I should able to forget about hunting a quality Koi and better settle myself at a lower range Koi. Or if you tell me that such quality fish can be found at rm200 range that appear once in a blue moon like what bro sukri say, then I really don't mind to wait loh :-D
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro kwchan....very fair question and I am also eagerly awaiting the response.....
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro kwchan,
    Your questions are difficult to answer.........but I leave it to James to respond.

    But if I take myself as an example (giving me sufficient time and a lot of batches of kois to go through from a few dealers), it is possible for me to find a worthy Show quality kois from RM100 and up.........

    The question is.........can a newbie or an average hobbyist do it? This is the real question I believe........... An if you can't then you have to rely on the koi dealers to say which one is of Show quality and which are the ones that are not.......when this happens.........you have to pay $$$$$$$.

    A more basic question is what constitute a quality koi and have Show potential! I believe one has to know how kois are being judged, what makes a winning koi........If a person does not these facts, how is the person going to search for the elusive koi among the thousands of lets say, RM100 batch of kois? The answer is, one should be able to differentiate a diamond versus quartz........
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  • cubercuber August 2012
    Posts: 96
    Bro Shukri,
    If we rely on the dealer then, this dealer has to be trusted, we might never know especially if we are newbie, what the dealer said is true or not. We might ended up buying a very good pond quality koi with the price of show quality koi.
    I think the best way on this is to actually spend some "tuition fee" as to try to buy and observe, and gather information anywhere we could.
    At least this is what I did, initially I thought nishikigoi is all about pattern and size, apparently there are whole lot more to know and learn. Bloodline, tail tubes, body shapes, etc. there are just too many to mention to consider in buying a good kois. Even after 2 years of study and observation, I still have a lot more to learn from all the sifus here, so there won't be a general guideline of how to pick and choose a good nishikigoi, I believe all are based on experience, knowledge, keeping skills, and a bit of luck.

    That's why also I heard and read a lot of experienced koikichis would prefer to buy nisai rather than tosai, because you never know how the koi will turn out to be.
    But I still prefer to buy tosai, as I could actually follow the growth and development of the koi, it gives me a self satisfaction if I could keep the koi into a good one, and if it's not, then at least I have learned something from it.

    After about 1 year since I started into nishikigoi, I just understand why everybody saying this is a very expensive hobby.

    Just a thought from a newbie... :-D
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro KW, it is easy to recognise quality when u see a single koi! Easy to recognise lack of quality too. Key is at a dealer's pond or even if you attend a new arrival, they are all in bags and plentiful. How do you pick from those?

    I think not only involves skill but also confidence. If you know what you are looking for you go for it. Don't simply listen to others because you face the koi everyday not them. I, on the other hand is the "kwai lan" type. Like to pick sometimes after everyone else. Sometimes like to snatch when others are too slow too. :-)) :-))

    Getting good quality below 1k is not impossible, but will be really small. But to me, again a little kwai lan, I believe both are female! So I think is ok.

    But bro RM200 hard to get good koi. Not impossible but really hard. You set this kind of budget you will end up paying a lot of tuition fee!! I don't decide on price/budget until I see the koi. Again if the koi is worth more, no harm paying RM500. If in a pond of RM200 then you just have to see if you can spot any spectacular deals lor... Most likely not!

    The guarantee is this. Until u start buying, you will never learn.

    P/s See, everybody notice the showa but neglect the goromo. This goromo v good le... I assure you when she grows the pattern will be very powerful and also the quality is good. This kind of goromo will cost a lot when bigger.
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    I have never been successful raising Goromos. Tried a few before and failed every time. I will follow up with interest the development of this Goromo, under the watchful eyes of Bro James. Please update us on its progress and development.
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  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Not its bro Shukri, is a she... An yes will update. Trying various methods of bringing up colour.

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