water waste/treatment system in our pond filtering system.
  • RonnieRonnie August 2012
    Posts: 107
  • RonnieRonnie August 2012
    Posts: 107
  • jamiltjamilt August 2012
    Posts: 287
    tq bro ronnie for this informative links
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    If you study carefully the clip of the waste water treatment process one can can take note of the following:
    1. Nitrification and denitrification is both important where the former is the start and the latter is the end of the process
    2.Autotropic bacteria such as Nitrifier bacteria are sensitive to PH of 6.8 to 7.4, are more active warmer waters, and requires lots of oxygen to survive. They release acids as they convert toxic ammonia to nitrate.
    3. Heterotrophic bacterias are house in a separate low oxygen area where they convert nitrates and DOC to harmless nitrogen.
    4. The waste water plant employs a horizontal flow system for the nitrification and transfer chamber with low oxygen and specific heterotropic bacterias are employed for the denitrification stage.
    5. There is no mention of use of UV lights.
  • RonnieRonnie August 2012
    Posts: 107
    Bro jamilt...no problem...just sharing...
    Bro HDCu... =D>
  • NeliNeli August 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    Good observations...I saw someone made a filter for removing nitrates....by anaerobic process of conversion. Has anyone tried that>?
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Sis Neli,

    In marine aquarium setup, denitrifiers are sometimes employed to remove nitrates.
    In koi keeping, nitrate buildup is not much of a problem as nitrate feeds the algae on the wall of the pond. However, I am one of those who believe nitrate above20ppm dulls the shiroji of the koi and above 60 ppm reduces the dissolved oxygen in the water.

    A bakki shower using good quality filter medium like Bacteria House, crystal bio, glass sintered media can house enough heterotropic bacterial culture that can reduce nitrate levels.

    Another option is to place hundreds of bio balls seeded with cultured heterotropic bacteria in a long up and down tube at low flow rate after it has been passed thru the aerated filters and mechanical filters.

  • RonnieRonnie August 2012
    Posts: 107
    Bro HDCu,

    Another option is to place hundreds of bio balls seeded with cultured heterotropic bacteria in a long up and down tube at low flow rate after it has been passed thru the aerated filters and mechanical filters.

    got any sample of this?
  • lautslauts August 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Guys , before venture into denitrification , a good understanding is vital. Note the many dangers including H. Sulfide and bacteria outbreak. Thus far the safest and easiest way to reduce nitrate is water change. I used to think plant works , but not anymore, water changes is the way to go.

    ts

    Taken from http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html

    " Denitrification is the process by which microorganisms convert nitrate (NO3) to nitrogen gas (N2). In terms of the global nitrogen cycle, denitrification serves to balance nitrogen fixation by removing fixed nitrogen (rather than supplying it) to the biosphere. Most denitrifying bacteria are heterotrophic (such as Paracoccus denitrificans and various pseudomonads), utilizing organic carbon, hydrogen or hydrogen sulfide as electron donor and nitrate as electron acceptor. The electron donor is oxidized (to CO2, water or sulfate) and nitrate is contemporaneously reduced to dinitrogen gas (N2). Denitrifying bacteria require a source of reductant (energy) and a source of oxidant (nitrate).

    This process can take place in an environment of very limited oxygen by anaerobic bacteria. This process is more common in Marine aquaria and takes place in fine #00 sand, live rock, or “aquarium mud”.
    In freshwater aquariums this process often produces potentially dangerous Hydrogen Sulfide, but by maintaining an oxygen level above 1 ppm, this can be avoided. Plants roots are great for maintaining this balance of oxygen in the gravel for proper Nitrate removal by allowing very small amounts of oxygen into the substrate which promotes nitrogen reduction over sulfur reduction (which occurs in substrate with 0 oxygen).

    As a generalization, aerobic nitrification takes place in the top 1-2 inches of substrate (deeper in courser substrate, or more shallow in fine sand). While nitrogen fixing anaerobic bacteria oxidize nitrates in an area of 2-4 inches of substrate (again deeper for course media, more shallow for fine sand). Finally Sulfur fixing anaerobic bacteria that produce hydrogen sulfides generally live in substrate over 3-4 inches in depth.
    This generalization can very by substrate size, amount of plant roots and depth thereof as well as how deep certain worms, copepods dig into the substrate. Use of airline deep under sand beds over 5-6 inches that products very limited and controlled bubbles can allow for more de-nitrification while further limiting sulfur reduction.
    The picture to the left/above displays this generalization where aerobic nitrification, anaerobic de-nitrification, and anaerobic sulfur reducing occurs based on substrate depth and substrate size (fine to coarse).
    The production of Hydrogen Sulfide in aquariums (both salt and even more so freshwater) is a controversial subject, often with unclear answers as to whether anaerobic de-nitrification is beneficial in freshwater due to the POSSIBLE production of Hydrogen Sulfide.
    With the most current research (although admittedly not conclusive in my view), you CAN have anaerobic de--nitrification and NOT have dangerous levels of Hydrogen Sulfide produced.

    One key to allow de-nitrification without production of Hydrogen Sulfide is to allow some oxygen penetration of the substrate and as well. In saltwater aquariums, worms, copepods, etc often help perform this work. In freshwater, plant roots achieve this well and also remove raw ammonia as well as nitrates.
    Careful vacuuming (or even substrate stirring) can also help, although in a deep sand bed excessive "deep" vacuuming can release hydrogen sulfide that would otherwise be harmlessly trapped in the deepest areas (generally over 4 inches)"

  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Laut,

    Unless you use submerged plant, nitrate cannot be reduced. Water change without properly clean filtration also cannot work. Some solid waste attach to biological media will keep producing ammonia
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • lautslauts August 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    In agreement with you bro Harry on the clean filtration to minimise increase in nitrate. Haven't tried the submerged plants though, too much maintenance to worth the effort.

    ts

  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    I think nitrate can be removed by placing filter mediums where heterotropic bacteria can live using anoxic filtration along side with aerobic filtration filters mediums.
  • RonnieRonnie August 2012
    Posts: 107
    @-) lost in the moment...placing what to what bro HDCu?...
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Ronnie,

    There are filter media such as bacteria house and glass sintered media that can house both aerobic bacteria at its surface and anaerobic heterotropic bacteria inside the porous structure of the media where there is limited oxygen. This is compared to the japanese mat which is heavily aerated which will house mostly aerobic bacteria.
  • RonnieRonnie August 2012
    Posts: 107
    Thanks for the info Bro HDCu...Do you think 100% aerating my filter will help?aerated 2nd and 3rd chamber in full.2nd chamber J-MATS and 3rd is return/corals/bio balls/pumps/UV uplift.both chamber heavily aerated.i have not aerated my main pond(no air stone what so ever)circulation medium strong.will this be a problem?i try to put an air stone but i like to see my kois too.. 8-)
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Ronnie,

    Aerating your jmat filter will increase the population of your nitrifying good bacteria and shed off dead bacteria thereby giving you better water quality. If your pond depth is less than three feet you can get away without aerating your pond but you would need a strong circulating current without dead spots. More than three feet, aeration in pond necessary.
  • tswerntswern November 2012
    Posts: 132
    How about an algae scrubber?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_scrubber

    Considering Algae sucks up nitrates?
  • NeliNeli November 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    there is a guy on koimag,
    who made denitrifying anaerobic filter...normally in denitrification processes nitrate is produced first and later converted into nitrite and then to N...in anaerobic conditions.
    carbon needs to be added for the exchange of electrons...in the form of vodka..or molasses...he he he!
    I thing the denitrification filter is very dangerous.

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