Considering replacing current pond with new set up - this time I want to do it right!
  • SsmannSsmann July 2012
    Posts: 164
    Dear sifus,

    Thanks for all the help rendered with my current pond issues effecting my koi. I inherited the pond when I purchased the house and wanted to give it a go with this hobby. Now that i find joy in it, i would like to do it right and treat my kois with some T&C. I have learnt so much from all of you in these past 2 months, but there is still so much to learn! I have seen some threads with suggested pond set up, filteration etc...but I must say this is super technical for me la...myself a little slow la : (

    Available land area which my home minister has approved for consideration to replace current set up is about 300 sq ft, where the current pond is. So technically, I can get around a 30k litre pond in that space, if average depth is around 4ft???

    Questions, based on what I have gathered from other sifus and reading other forums. Pls correct this novice if needed:

    1. Any recommended expert koi pond constructer in the Klang region that won't cost an arm and a leg pls? What would be the expected budget for something like this for those who have undertaken similar projects pls??
    2. I want to go with a easy to maintain filteration system, no more mats to clean, bio filters to stock up etc. What is the recommendation? Also I want to include a bakki shower set up, but the rule from HM is that it must be esthetically acceptable...how?
    3. 2 or 4 bottom drains (should there be a pump for suction or natural flow??) and 4 skimmers on surface where the contact of water is the highest, straight into filter chamber to ensure all surface impediments get captured quick
    4. Strong aeration from bottom of pond to supply whole pond
    5. No waterfall, but sufficient water jets around pond to ensure solid flow
    6. The whole pond must circulate total capacity at least 2 times in a hour
    7. Pond shape won't be rectangular per se, but at the same time won't have sharp edges or dead spots. This is to ensure an esthetically pleasing pond too
    8. Will have landscaping around edges of pond surface (HM requirement), a Jap lookalike bridge (maybe) and if HM approval granted, a covered wooden roofing to match rest of the home which will protect about 80% of pond from sunlight
    9. I will stock no more than 9 koi as follows my current Ochiba and new acquisitions once new pond in order are a Hi Utsuri, Showa Sanshoku, Shiro Utsuri, Kujaku, Kumonryu, Karasugoi, Koromo and a Ginrin Chagoi
    10. Anything else I have missed out pls?

    I plan to start this project around October this year. Any assistance granted, always appreciated.

    Rgds - Ssmann
    Post edited by Ssmann at 2012-07-30 02:55:55 pm
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar July 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro Ssman,
    300sq with 4 feet dept is 1200 cubic feet equals to 33, 980 liter. Other suggestions I leave it to Sifu's here...
  • SsmannSsmann July 2012
    Posts: 164
    Thanks bro TK!!
    Post edited by Ssmann at 2012-07-30 02:25:15 pm
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar July 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro SSman,

    Some of my 2 cents
    1. Bro Aron from Akakoi. Did a superb job for bro Muzamir
    2.
    a) Bead filtration like bro Shukri
    b) Bro Aron can take care of it like he had done for bro Muzamir
    3.
    a) BD - IMHO natural flow should be good but I leave it to Sifu's recommendation
    b) SS - Straight to 1st chamber (my contractor did a mistake by channeling to last chamber and I'm stuck with it. Only can redo during my pond renovation)
    4. Should be opposite site of SS...
    5. No comments
    6. No comments
    7. No comments
    8. No comments
    9. No comments
    10. Filter chamber is most important aspect. Please refer to this tread for filter chamber. I had bookmarked this for my future pond renovation...
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/542/what-is-your-desire-pond-filter/p1
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur July 2012
    Posts: 808
    Once you got infected by koi virus,there are no way out. Just fast forward button. Don't save when build a pond, do it once, do it right. Spend it once, spend it right. You can enjoy it for good
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar July 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro Harry,
    You are absolutely right. When I started to build my pond, I was not infected yet, so ask the pond builder to build the cheapest pond just for the sake of landscape.
    But now infected redi, just waiting for the right time to upgrade
    As a result, double expenditure... :-((
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur July 2012
    Posts: 808
    I always suggest build the biggest pond as possible. It is not because i am a pond builder that charged based on pond volume. If so, i will not suggest to make shallow pond, deep pond will have more tonnage water. In cost efficiency, building deep pond cost less than shallow pond in the same volume. Building a new pond is easier than renovating or rebuild, becase you don't need to demolished old pond
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • SsmannSsmann July 2012
    Posts: 164
    Thanks TK for your comments and thoughts. I appreciate every bit of it.

    Thanks bro Harry. I agree that do it right 1st time, but was hoping for a little more insight from your experience to be shared with a beginner.....tq again
  • mangkellmangkell July 2012
    Posts: 1,221
    Bro Ssman,

    You inherit a pond with your house purchase? Welcome to the club... :-D

    Some photo of the old pond & the new area might help Bro...

    Plus your proposed design... Hand sketch also can for the start...

    From there our Sifu can advise you better...

    Tq
    Mickeyko Ducati-Kujamon Chagreemon Brabus#Sexy-Robust
  • SsmannSsmann July 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Mangkell, thanks for the welcome. Here are some pics of current pond and area....look forward to thoughts and suggestions for a mistake and idiot proof pond...

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8514/pond 1.jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8515/pond 2.jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8516/pond 3.jpg
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8517/pond 4.jpg
    Post edited by Ssmann at 2012-07-31 10:09:04 am
  • NeliNeli July 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    So Cute and well done!
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur July 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro SSman,

    Please just draw the area size, and we all can determine and suggest where to put the new pond. More ppl mean more ideas. And as i stated before, do it once and do it right, please take your time and not to hurry. Once everything decided, including budgeting then you can sttart.

    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects July 2012
    Posts: 134
    Suggest you consider having a 55,000L/H flow water pump. I have 2 units coming in a few days. That will give us good turn over rate for your filter/pond.Interested, pls contact 016-8891606.
  • dennis68dennis68 July 2012
    Posts: 69
    Bro you can contact Hua May they are pro in this line ! ask them give you a price ,they will advices you on this !
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Ssmann,
    The pond that will be ultimate for you will be a trade off from estatic look to a practical Koi pond for serious hobbyist like you soon to be. I strongly suggest that you come out with the so called design and bounce ideas from the Koi Kichis in this Forum, similar to what Sis Neli has done. That way, it will minimize the headaches and the problems.
    As in my case, I spent no less than 3 months, looking at all aspects i.e. not to leave any stones unturned. But down on paper on all the things that you want e.g. like in my case, EASE of maintenance is my top priority, etc etc. Once you know what you want, then go into the design that best fitted into your requirements. IMHO, only Koi Kichis understand to the fullest what we want and not the Pond builders. Best is to know what you want and dictate to the pond builders...........like what I did........even that is so, they still make mistakes. What we need in Malaysia is the equivalent of Bro Harry Luhur. Indonesia is so lucky to have him.......Look at what Neli is doing.......
    I will end with this statement........The Forum is your resource!!! So, what is stopping you from utilizing this powerful tool.......... :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-08-02 09:01:44 pm
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Shukri,

    You flatter me lar. I am more selective building pond lately, and my cost a bit higher compare to others. My high cost due to my motto, that i only want to built once, not because of profit. I have seen many poor built pond, from the system or the pond itself. Any pond can be built with 1/2 my price, but some contractors can reduce cost here and there. For steel bar, i always use standard one, 12mm, usually have a tolerance of 0,3mm max, while cheap one can cheaper 20-30%, because they give 10,x mm steel bar, reduce the bottom slab height, even use lower cement : sand composition. In here good sand (coarse) can different up to 30% to lower grade sand.

    All i can suggest is decided what you want, pond size, volume, filtration system and budget. You can find a pond builder or just common house builder and have him build according to plan and layout. Using house contractor usually cost less expensive but you to give extra attention and i remember a customer saying, "instead of split my concentration for building a pond, i rather have my full concentration to earn more money to pay the professional to do my pond"
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
    Post edited by harry_luhur at 2012-08-02 11:58:14 pm
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Harry, dues are in order.......
    What you have said is very true. Often the cheapest are not the best. You are quite correct, trying to be cheap seldom offers the best solution, and at the end of the day, will cost much more to rectify the faults.

    My advice to Bro Ssmann, do not try to copycat out of the bag, someone else pond or design. These might now suit your needs and requirements. I strongly suggest you list down your requirements........i.e. what you want and require..........awfully important, and then take it from there.

    Be wary of pond builders that are not koi kichis........because they will never appreciate what other koi kichis want. Believe me when I say this!!! I have seen it so many times......again and again.......too many times!!! Just remember that people can claim and can talk & promise every thing.......these are mere talks!!!! And talks are definitely cheap.......

    I can ask a simply question to a pond builder........how do they go about installing a pipe in a wall and ensuring that water would not leak from one side of the wall to the other. You will be surprised how many of the so called pond builders do not do a thorough job. Even gluing pipes together is something that need to be done carefully.

    Even with my current renovation right now, I have to rectify the leaks myself because the guys that installed the waterco system only know about the system but do not know how to ensure there are no leakages with regards to the pond etc.

    In the Klang Valley, I will go with people like Raymond Hew, Aaron Goh and Brother Borman. These are pond builders that are Koi Kichis themselves..........just like our Bro Harry.

    And if you want to save money, then Bro Ssmann, you will definitely have to be the Project Manager. If not, you are leaving the fate of your pond in the other people's hand that are not Koi Kichis.

    If you get someone like Hua Mei to do your pond, then a pond that is RM50K can be RM100K...........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    You have a point bro Shukri,

    Please take time and can enjoy the hobby for last.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Thanks so much bro Dennis68, Shukri and Harry.

    Bro Shukri and Harry, I have been thinking hard and doing lotsa research. I still struggle understanding all the design terms etc, but am slowly getting there. I will soon put a schematic plan together and from there will share with all koi kichis here! Thanks for all comments and direction to date!

    Rgds - ssmann
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Shukri,

    Based on the pic of my current pond and my requirement list, these are the main criteria for the design of new pond;

    1. Extend from existing pond
    2. Current waterfall feature to act as a natural bakki shower (will this work???)
    3. Pond size without filter to have about 10 tonnes of water, bal for filtration
    4. Filter to be redesigned to have overflow back to 1st chamber. There will be 5 chambers all together, up down design, each to have individual bottom drain and individual drain function, filled with bac house and thinking of using a sieve rather than jmat for ease of maintenance. Question: does the sieve work as well as jmat? My immediate thought is that more mat is better, but I like to find easy way to maintain the pond
    5. For aeration, the pond will be supplied by a air hose sufficient to provide enough aeration, one in the pond and the other to the filter
    6. 2 bottom drains and 2 ss direct to 1st chamber
    7. 1 pump that can flow the water to create sufficient flow for bacteria to grow and yet ensure a good turnaround. I suspect a pump after loss consideration of 15000 liter per hour should do the trick

    These are my immediate thoughts. Will revert with pics soon.......

    Thanks!
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi Bro SSmann,

    Looking at your current pond setup and available space that you and your HM has allocated, I would suggest you aim for the largest surface area possible. A 10 ton pond with not enough surface area would be suitable only for large koi to swim in and not jumbo kois to get enough exercise to remain healthy.

    I dont understand what you meant by overflow back to 1st chamber? overflow are usually direct to drain. With regards to your up down filter design, try to aim for 5 min contact time in determining size of your filter chamber and pump size. Japanese airhose produce very fine bubbles but it is harder to maintain as it gets block easily compared to airstones. I would suggest that the airhose is positioned for easy removal and maintenance especially when placed under the filter medium.

    I cannot imagine how much Bacteria house you are going to put in your chamber but Im sure it will be a lot and will cost more than the pond itself. The problem with BH placed submerged is that detrius will collect and settle in between the space of the submerged BH regardless you use seive or not. To clean it would be to remove the submerge BH and clean in it, a very laborious task to do.

    A seive and the jap mat works differently as the former is a mechanical filter to be compared to brushes while the Jap mat is for use as biological filter. The problem of using seives is that it can get block and needs cleaning sometimes twice a day.

    I have reservation with using 2 bottom drains to 1st chamber concept. what will happen is that the drain pipe with shorter length and closer to the 1st chamber will pick up most of detrius. This will not be a problem though since its just a 10 ton pond. If you have a choice between using just one pump or two pumps, go for two pumps instead in order to have a reserve. Pumps have a life and accidents happen as such even if one gets busted, you wont be crippled while you replace your new one. In my new pond setup, I have to separate filters chambers with each its own mechanicalm biological and pump and bakki shower setup. Even if I stop one pump and clean out its filter set, there is still no interuption of the filtration thereby causing no stress or ammonia/nitrite buildup during filter maintenance whatsoever.
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Ssmann,
    Keep the thinking going, and the questions going as well. Bro HDCu gave some good pointers there.
    You mentioned 5 chambers.........any reasons why you want 5 chambers?
    Please pay extra attention to the design of the chambers........ie for easy access and EASE of maintenance etc........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro SSman,

    Agree with HDCu on bigger pond. If you can have more space, you may built submerged chamber. But with limited space, i suggest you use fluidized bed + BS. You can have a bigger pond, you can hide your FB behind waterfall/BS.

    As long as you got good mechanical filtration, you don't have to worry about biological. You only need 1 settlement chamber +prefilter sieve for big particles, go to FB and BS. You can split FB to BS and to waterfall, both of this output go small sump before returning to pond.

    Equipment quite expensive but you spend wisely. I have seen many myth around the pond building, and i try to give some thought. This may bring pro and con, but let's discuss it.

    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bros, pls find attached the schematic. Nothing fancy, my simple drawing with some ideas on how i think it will work. All comments for improvement welcomed!

    In summary;

    - 5 BD's in a X shape that will flow into 1st chamber. Will gather in middle and from middle to far right BD before 1st chamber will drop in angle to accomodate flow into 1st chamber

    - 9 water jets in a up/down design to provide full aeration and flow to pond at all levels

    - 4 surface skimmers to trap crap and surface debris into 1st chamber

    - 3 overflow pipes straight into drain

    - water flow from pond into filter and from pump into waterfall (act as bakki shower) back into pond

    - 1st chamber settlement

    - 2nd chamber sieve

    - 3rd chamber jap mat

    - 4th chamber BH

    - 5th chamber pump/uv/oyster shell

    - all chambers are individual control, up/down system, with own BD to drain

    - all power points, air pump will be placed next to filter

    - decking around pond optional, but will help to ensure no need to cut grass around pond/filter causing debris to go into pond and filter with massive cleaning work thereafter

    - Pond size will be between 9k litre (10 X 8 X 5) to 17k litre (15 X - 8 X 5), dependent on how much space i want to take up. Filter will be 30% of that

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8634/Scan0002.jpg
    Post edited by Ssmann at 2012-08-07 09:27:26 pm
    Attachments
    Scan0002.jpg 142K
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro SSmann,

    I dont see any point of providing five bottom drain placed in an x- series. There will be negligible suction on four out out of five bottom drains which will cause detrius to settle inside the four bottom drain pipe. A four inch bottom drain pipe with a 12 inch cover can effectively cover already a circular diameter of 5 to 6 feet.

    Overflow to drain is normally placed inside the filter chamber so as to avoid floating food to get suck out drain.

    Do you really need four surface skimmers? Do you have leaves constantly falling down your proposed pond? Your pond shape also is not irregular as to require four surface skimmers. Floating crap or surface DOC bubbles is not solved by adding more surface skimmer.

    What does nine water side jets powered by air pump mean? What kind of air pump you propose to use and how will the air pump power the nine water side jets?

    What kind of UV do you proposed to put? It cannot be the submerged exposed type as the UV will make plastic submersible pump brittle. Why are you going to use corals? did you meant oyster shell?

    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-08-07 10:01:26 pm
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro SSman,
    1. This design waste a lot of space. Get biggest pond you can build, 20ton is a minimum.
    2. Separate location pond and chamber increase risk of leaking, any soild movement or earthquake can cause piping to break. That why, we always cast pond and filter bottom together then built filterinside this area. With pipe cast inside concrete bottom minimize the leaking problem.
    3. Your BD will not work, top & left bottom bd will suck minimum water, this can create anaerob condition to low water flow.
    4. With 9 jet facing each other, you will have avery turbulance water, and very difficult to make correct flow. And you koi may seem to like it, but no rest area make them keep moving.

    If you planned use chamber filter, use 1 way flow. I think you can find many design in here. Workyour design based on that, you will save a lot of times
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Tq bro HDCu and Harry.

    Bro HDCu,

    This is very useful. I am no engineer, so thot more bottom drains will mean more suction from all over pond, if the gravity is in the right order! hahahah...obviously I am wrong!

    There will be an overflow in the filter chamber too.

    SS required as the area will be lanscaped and i currently have 2 frangipani trees that shed a fair bit. and if there is grass, at least when i cut it, it will easily get sucked into the SS.

    9 water jets around the pond, will be powered by 1 or 2 air blowers which will be placed outside the pond and connected by PVC pipe into the pond. The idea is to get max aeration and also good turbulence for koi exercise, where the pond is smaller than adequate. not a good idea?

    UV will be submerged and will put it closest to the 4th chamber where the water comes into the pump chamber. This will be covered to ensure max reach of 2 - 4 inches of water hitting the UV. Yes oyster, not coral.

    Bro Harry,

    I dont have the luxury of taking up all the available space. You must understand that i need to balance esthetics and koi pond, or there is no way i will ever get approval to move with the plan.

    I take your point on seperate location of pond and filter and will try to work this to be together.

    Pls help me understand what you mean by 1 way flow.

    Pls be patient with me, i am the least technical person on this planet so need some time to comprehend : )

    Thanks all!

  • cookcpucookcpu August 2012
    Posts: 462
    Your decking that separate the pond and the filter chamber can be use for filter chamber with decking on top.

    Most of my guest who stand on top of my filter chamber that are cover by timber decking do not know they are standing on top of the pond filter chamber. IMO, you can save some space on that.

    PS. More water going into the filter chamber mean you need more pump to pump water out of the chamber. So you can calculate how much water volume going into the filter chamber and how many pump require to pump the water out.
    Post edited by cookcpu at 2012-08-09 04:12:01 pm
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro SSman,

    I think you are confusing water jets powered by air pumps with so called jacuzzi air compressors as compared to low pressure high volume air pump for ponds that are connected to airstones or airlines. To achieve better aeration is to use more smaller fine bubbles instead or big bubbles like in jacuzzi. To give the kois a current to exercise, the water flow of the return pipe to pond should be strong with no opposing current. Subdividing it to nine smaller return will give a better distribution of water only but this will make the water turbulent to look at.
  • idrisidris August 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Bro ssman..if I were you...I call up a sifu to build for me..and I never regret it...yes it's true many sifu did build their own pond and design, but but but..before that they also already build their first pond and made lots of mistake..from there, they learn and learn and that's how they succeed..to be at that point sometime you may spend lots of money, time and disappointment...but if you really confident to DIY, then go ahead and at the end if failure the result you have to accept it...

    Better do it right the first time...everybody learn from their mistakes but smart people learn from others mistakes...my 5 cent as a newbie too bro...
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Smart people learn from others mistakes --->i like this
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Idris getting v v v v v v smart.
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Thanks all for contribution. This is very helpful to aid me in getting to the best design possible given my constraints. A design that has been offered to me looks something like this. Will this work pls.....

    1. Will the bottom drain and ss position work with the 1 directional flow from the aircurtain at the opposite end, that will most likely be powered by a Resun 100? The length is about 15 ft and breadth about 8ft and depth about 4ft (water). The in water return will be just above the air curtain, 3 outlets likely powered by a seperate pump from that of the above water feature. In total about 14 tonne excl filter area. I will keep only 9 koi fish...that's it

    2. The additional filter will be added to current set up and connected through. The new filter area will house settlement chamber and brushes/netting. Thus, technically this is the only area that needs to be flushed. The original chamber area will house the bio material, pump and UV, and technically would not require to be flushed as it is expected to have mostly clean filtered water

    3. Not to worry about seperate pond and filter area, i have to live with this design given the constraints and the fact that Msia is not earthquake or disaster prone, so see little risk of cracked pipes etc. But I take your point Bro Harry, tq!

    All comments welcomed as I get my head around the design to ensure an optimal koi pond that meets my requirements and constraints. Tq all bros and sis!

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8756/Scan0003.jpg
    Post edited by Ssmann at 2012-08-12 01:29:40 pm
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Cookcpu, thanks for the decking suggestion. I have decided to do away with that idea, as the Mrs orders are that greens are a must....so will have to retain some of that. Bukan takut bini...just too old to wanna argue la...hehehehehehe
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro HDCu, thanks! I now understand the water flow and the need for this a little better. Revised design now includes air curtain at the entry bottom of water wall, in water return will be above this. 1 direction towards end of pond, where SS and BD will be. Will this work?

    The one thing i dont want is turbulent water, i like to see my kois....
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Idris, fully agree with you. Sifu on call now...hehehehe

    My intention was to bounce of ideas here so as I can understand things better and do it right 1st time around. Sometimes the sifu tells me what I need to do, I may not like the idea and need to understand how to counter...otherwise better still I go donate 1 pond to the sifu in his home...hahhaahahah

    And fully support learning from others mistakes, so we dont have to make our costly ones! Tq bro
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Ssmann,
    Very good discussions. You are getting there.......Yup, learn from others' mistakes, save unnecessary spending. Mistakes are costly as you know.
    About the HM suggestions, you better adhere also, else susah brother........I know you tak takut bini tapi your HM yang tak takut with you......... :-)) :-D Peace brother.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar August 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro SSmann,

    I plan to do new pond as well, so would like to hi-jack here to ask few question, hope you don't mind.

    Need sifu's help to understand and clear some of the doubt on the above design
    1) BD- The above only applicable if the bottom of the pond is slope towards the BD right?
    If not slope, then the BD should have 2 at center pond and 2 at the last should be sufficient?
    2) The Aircurtain area is best to fit shower bar
    3) 3 ss looks too much, 2 should be enough rite
    4) The design looks more like 17 ton, so total turnover should be minimum 30 ton/hour supported by two pump?
    5) Should have underwater jet at both side walls to prevent fish poo to settle at the side?

    As for the filter (up down system)
    1) First chamber can act as settlement chamber and fill with brush/ DIY sieve
    2) Second chamber as japp matt
    3) 3rd chamber as japp matt
    4) 4th with pump, UV and oyster shell
    5) dry chamber

    All the chamber must be flushed during cleaning. But only first chamber need to flush almost 50%, balance maybe 20%. This is to flush out the escapies from 1st chamber

    Sifu's please correct my mistakes as am learning to understand the concept better

    Rgds,
    TK
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro SSmann,

    IMO, because of the length, depth, inclination and size irregularity of the pond, it would make better sense to put the three bottom drain across the 15 feet of the pond. Please note that each bottom drain should have its own pipe leading to the settlement chamber.

    The air curtain position seems ok .

  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro SSman,

    5 feet is not wide enough. Please reconsider, building a pond is for last.
    In this post, http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/571/andreas-pond-at-springhill-residence-jakarta/p1, pond wide is 2,4m. And now when kois grow bigger above 70m, it is already not so nice viewing the kois. I cannot imagine when it grow bigger.

    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Yeap,, I agree with Bro Harry that 5 feet is definitely not wide enough.......consider the widest and the longest that is aloud. You will not regret it in the long run........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Harry/Shukri....width is 8ft, depth is 5ft and length is 15 ft.....i think 8 feet is OK, no?
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Still not wide enough. Min 10ft
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Harry, I unfortunately cannot commit that much of space bro until I get a property with at least 20,000 sq ft of land...then I can give up about 2,000 sq ft area to fully dedicate to a tasteful 30 tonne pond. This will be a 5 year project in the making....for now I just have to work with what i have within the constraints of ensuring enuff space for my son to play and wife to garden. Family happy = me happy! hahahaha
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro TK, no worries on hijacking. We are all learning in the process from the sifu's. I must admit that I am slowly beginning to understand how pond and filteration process works, but still a long way to go.....
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Shukri, hahahaha.....bini memang tak takut me. But Koi's are associated with peace, so peace it is!! hahahaahaha
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro SSman,
    The lawn between pond and filter is use ffor pond is adequate, beside we won't play in that area too. There many way to manipulate if you want greenery on your garden. You can build waterfall and havesome waterplant and moss, and it very nice and natural too
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Harry....do you work in Msia or solely Indonesia?
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Reading some overseas koi threads and the discussion seems to be why do traditional filtration systems move all the crap and muck through the whole filter chambers? This is exactly what happens to my filter now as i do not have individual drains in each chamber that can be flushed to ensure dirt does not flow from one chamber to the next. This is a design problem. Pls help me understand if there is anyway to have the SS and BD in the pond go directly out to a drain and not into the 1st chamber? How would pond water then recirculate? My whole aim is to find a system that cleans the crap out immediately and the water in pond and filter is always good And clean, free of most debris.
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Ssmann,
    Like what Bro Harry said a few times, Mechanical filtration is the heart of the entire system. You need to have a sound Mechanical filtration that seived most if not all of the solid wastes and debris. Else these solid wastes will choke your mechanical and biological chambers........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro shukri, thanks and understand the concept. Also any input on whether a top down filter system or a top flow system is preferred for koi keeping? What are the difference between the two? I am confused.....tq
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Brother Ssmann,
    In this area, lets here from Bro Harry Luhur........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro SSman,

    I confuse with this "Top down filter system or a top flow system". Actually, there no perfect system, there plus and minus point in every system. What we need is that suit us most, especially in term of maintenance and price.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • SsmannSsmann August 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Harry, totally agree on the points of suiting and pricing. Everything in life in moderation is fine, because overkill can be injurous. I just wanted to understand better a top flow system, how does it work and how will it settle debris? Tq
    Post edited by Ssmann at 2012-08-18 10:52:44 pm
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Ssmann,
    Most importantly, how effective is the Mechanical filtration? And how easy it is to maintain the Mechanical filter? Once you have the answer for this, all the other aspect will fall into place..........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro SSman,

    Mostly system will apply BD because most solid will actually settle to pond bottom. Some fine ash or oil or even foam may appear in pond surface, and we need surface skimmer to collect it. If you have BD, middle water and SS, this is 3 source for pond water deliver to you filter, this will make fine particles is drag to lower, middle and top water.

    Regarding flow, there circular or straight flow. Many in here still using centre BD (with or without airhose) some also put BS. Using centre BD require circular flow, so it act like vortex. Some added airhose on top of BD, this can help drag debris on pond bottom toward BD, but it also create turbulance that make fine particles diFficult to settle. Some even add BS that fall into pond andmake the circular flow disturbed. Also difficult to arrange flow for top water to SS. I also find that kois expose rather long to this circular flow, tend to swim funny. Koi tail when swim should left-right-left-right. Expose to sstrong circular flow it sometime swing right-right-right-left, or the other around. This kind not nice, and whhen i choose fish, this is also taking into my consideration.

    While for straight flow, you will need strong current to able to push debris to BD, and the longer your pond the more powerful current needed. And also in in outdoor pond, debris tend to trap in algae on pond bottom. Koi movement can help to move thedebris in pond bottom, this type of pond, IMO should be feed with some sinking food.

    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • grinkz01grinkz01 August 2012
    Posts: 530
    so..bro harry what is the best location to place bd? assume koi pond size is 5m length x 3 m width and using bakki shower. tq
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    BD at opposite side of water return bro..
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    For straight flow is the opposite of water return like bro James suggested. 5meters is suitable
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • grinkz01grinkz01 August 2012
    Posts: 530
    bro james, bro harry thanks for the advice....i am dreaming (not even planning huh...:-( ) to demolish my pond and some of my house room....make a bigger and correct pond....still dreaming and learning...
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Grinkz,

    Bro Wahyu actually use one bedroom for his filter compartement.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • grinkz01grinkz01 August 2012
    Posts: 530
    uppss.....i am dreaming to demolish small "gudang" room & toilet....but construction is quite complex hence most likely will requiring me to modify the house also....
    Post edited by grinkz01 at 2012-08-22 01:23:48 pm
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Grinkz,
    I think it is easier to "poison" your neighbour, so can build combine pond. It is cheaper on construction, cheaper on fish buying, feeding and electricity :)
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • JamesJames August 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Grinkz, when there is a will there is a way. Remodel house for HM, pond is by the way. :-))
  • grinkz01grinkz01 August 2012
    Posts: 530
    ha..ha...then i will need to have a very good proposal to the "finance ministry".......
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Grinkz,
    Which stage are you? A wise man, wiser or wisest of them all!!!............. :-)) :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-08-23 01:19:11 pm
  • grinkz01grinkz01 August 2012
    Posts: 530
    abang shukri.....i think i am still trying to be a wise man......not yet wiser nor wisest.....still far away from "NO Fear" feeling..... :-))

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