My Tosai Collection 2012
  • pandaipandai July 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Fellow koikichis,

    Armed with my new socknet and new measuring tub - and a very helpful and supportive HM, on a quiet Sunday afternoon. Managed to bowl a few of my tosais (some close to nisai) for your views and comments good or bad or anything. Would appreciate also any advice on what I can do to improve their quality. Thanks all in advance!

    1. Hoshikin Kohaku (from the Gonsanke GO 2012) 32cm.

    Is the beni still okay or is it breaking already? To my newbie eyes, the body seems to be bulking up nicely. Would this have any slightest chance at all in the GO judging??? :-ss

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8457/1-hoshikin kohaku-s.jpg


    2. Aoki Budo Goromo 37cm

    The goromo pattern doesn't seem to be as nice as compared to when I first got it. Could it be diminishing its quality in my pond?

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8458/2-aoki budo goromo-s.jpg


    3. Sakai Sanke 33cm

    I'm just a sucker for kuchibeni! This one is a slow grower - despite the length, it's actually close to nisai already

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8459/3-sakai sanke-s.jpg


    4. Akiyama Kujaku 27cm

    It seems to have lost its shine as compared when it left the dealer. I suspect its because of my covered pond. Hopefully my upcoming pond renovation of putting clear polycarbonate sheets to allow more sunlight in will improve the kujaku shine. [-O<

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8460/4-akiyama kujaku-s.jpg


    5. Shiro Utsuri 38cm

    Is this shiro worth keeping? This one is in my culling list but keeping it a while longer in case it improves its potential. What do you guys think?

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8461/5-shiro utsuri-s.jpg


    6. Seijuro Shusui 26cm

    A very new acquisition. Tosai tikam only. We'll give it time and see... :-?

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8462/6-seijuro shusui-s.jpg


    7. Kohaku 31cm

    The other kohaku. Another tosai tikam. Don't even remember farm name. Worth keeping? One of the contender in the culling list.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8463/7-kohaku-s.jpg


    8. Yamabuki Ogon 36cm

    This yamabuki is more "lemony" than "golden". In certain light, it looks almost white! I hope the pond renovation will improve its condition, otherwise will let it go to make room for my new ogon currently still in bro Raymond's pond at Gonsanke. Any reasonable offers? :-D

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8464/8-yamabuki ogon-s.jpg


    Thanks for viewing!
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • smokersmoker July 2012
    Posts: 715
    Bro Pandai,

    Love your Hoshikin Kohaku, she's my fav.
    She has a bulky and yet, long body, the beni is stretching abit, but the beni looks soft, so should have no problem to get solid once you feed her color food.
    Pattern also nice, an interesting san dan.
  • pandaipandai July 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    I posted the pics from my PC, all in potrait but on my iPad they all came up as landscape??? Why is that so? Anyone had same problem before? :/
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
    Post edited by pandai at 2012-07-29 04:26:40 pm
  • pandaipandai July 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Thanks bro smoker. She's my fav too! I didn't realize until my HM pointed out that the 2nd step looks like a heart L3 shape! Still 5 more weeks to go until GO judging so need to pump up the colour food a bit! :-D
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • farikfarik July 2012
    Posts: 317
    Bro pandai,
    most of the kois posted has a light yellow tinge on their noses....been feeding colour food alot lately?? really like your go kohaku...if you can get the beni up....body bulk lagi sikit fuuhh..... Your pond doesn't get enough sunlight...that's why your yamabuki is lemonish...maybe keep her until your pond reno...
  • megatronmegatron July 2012
    Posts: 832
    5 weeks is not far. You may not have enough time if you don't condition it by now. IMHO
    Don't ask me why!!!
  • farikfarik July 2012
    Posts: 317
    bro pandai,
    have you checked the sex of the yellow tinge nose kois,...maybe males....can confirm using the lastest method....ha,ha....can ask bro shukri to confirm....
  • pandaipandai July 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Bro Farik,

    Good eye! Yes, been giving them colour food continously but not a lot; about 50-60% of daily feed. I take your advice on the sunlight. Need to push my Contractor to do it fast! On the sex; need one of the sifu to come and help lah...

    Bro megatron,

    Thanks for the advice. For my knowledge, could you give me tips how to "condition" a fish for competition? I have never been in one before.
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
    Post edited by pandai at 2012-07-29 06:26:17 pm
  • gerrygerry July 2012
    Posts: 777
    Bro Pandai,

    Your Hoshikin Kohaku's body very nice! I like... Maybe should slow down on the bulking up for the beni to catch up... Looks a bit stretched. JMHO.

    On the gender thingy, maybe you can try the licking method.
    Sweet = Female
    Yucky = Male

    :-p
  • farikfarik July 2012
    Posts: 317
    Bro pandai,
    there you are ...sis gerry already gave you the equations....time to put it into practice...ha,ha.... just kidding....really lah....this level already a koi jungkie....
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar July 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro Pandai,
    Really nice collection (Y) . Like your Hoshikin Kohaku, Kujaku and Shiro utsuri,
    Like your Shiro Utsuri, L3 what you mean by improve it's potential? For me it's look like a fantastic piece.
  • pandaipandai July 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Bro TK,

    Thanks for the kind words. For the shiro, I just wish the the sumi is thicker and more solid. Thanks to my "L" series lens - it made the kois look more photogenic! :-D
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar July 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro Pandai,
    Sumi eventually would become thicker. More important is the Shiro bro. Just my two cent

    Really like the shiro...Am looking for a good Shiro utsuri like this. Would purchase when the next new arrivals comes to Yamakoshi.....
  • farikfarik July 2012
    Posts: 317
    Bro pandai,
    this shiro is omosako? the yellow head is due to your colour feed...with most omosako you have got to be patient bro....this shiro got potential...once the menware comes out can already see the shadow,there is motoguru, improve the shiroji, bulk this fella....has the potential lah bro...with shiro needs a lot of patience...maybe male due to the yellow head but there are exceptions....worth keeping....JMHO
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur July 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Pandai,

    Now is almost end of July, that mean your kois is ake nisai now. What i notice is the size is around 30+, which i think minimum size should be at least 45cm. Also notice weak beni in most fish? This is. Actual color or because of camera? Some camera can produce deep or weak beni. But considering you give color food, is not likely. Most kois have yellow head, wwhich most probable male kois.

    But not all hobbyist want to reach jumbo, some maybe need 60cm fish, bulky and good skin. Keeping big fish is more difficult. From your collection, i like both kohaku, but usuall i give them a time 3-6months, see if they can develop in size or not, if grow is slow, better culled it.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • NeliNeli July 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    Bro Pandai,
    Love all your Koi...Very nice!
    I have ipad...and noticed the same...I think Ipad is meant to be turned around...so pictures that are portrait...orientate along the long axis of the ipad...
    Bro Harry,
    I have learned from U guys big= beautiful...I want to try to have few big koi...
  • pandaipandai July 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Bro Farik, I don't remember the farm but I don't think it's Omosako. Anyway, thanks for the words of encouragement. I'll nurture it to its full potential.

    Sifu Harry, thanks for the input. I fully agree with you that their size is smaller than average. Maybe due to their non conducive living environment in my overcrowded small sized pond. On the beni, I think that's the actual beni colour, not a camera effect and yes, they are all a bit weak. I was hoping that my upcoming pond reno will bring in more sunlight and deepen their beni. Anyway, I didn't notice their yellow colour head until I bowl them out and photograph them. I do have a few 60cm+ at sansai but I do think they can grow bigger in a more spacious pond.

    Sis Neli, thanks for the kind words. Anyway, weird iPad...
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur July 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Pandai,

    Overcrowded on small pond may cause slow fish growth. Sunlight IMHO is not playing big role in fish color,it is more on gene and environment. I have seen many indoor or limited sunlight pond have goodbeni. Bro Smoker pond is semi indoor with glass cover on top, and we put V-KOOL to reduce heat and deflect uv from sunlight, fish color and grow very good. He just update me his sakai sansai asagi @75cm yesterday. Bro David pond also full cover and fish beni is good.

    I see most outdoor pond with full sunlight from morning til noon, seldom have good skin. Some with partial sunlight exposure (either from roof, building or tree) have better skin. Most in fish mudpond alsohave good skin and beni, and most mudpond is murky or green water reduce the sunlight penetration. This based only on my observation, and this still confuse me, is sunlight really benefit for beni or not.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • pandaipandai July 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Bro Harry,

    Thanks for the very useful advice.

    I couldn't agree more with you on the overcrowded pond. In my case, there are only two solutions; (1) keep less fish, or (2) build bigger pond! I will try to discipline myself on Solution 1 while slowly working myself on Solution 2 (which involves buying a new house with a big yard! [-O< ).

    I am still confused on the sunlight factor. I thought that the generally accepted idea is that sunlight is good and some sunlight is essential for quality skin. I also saw that almost all bro Raymond's ponds are expose to sunlight and as you know, his fishes got nice quality skin and lustre. I'm merely copying his concept. However, if talking about gene, I once had a cheap local yamabuki ogon with a very nice bright yellow coloured skin in my pond. Now, how do you explain that?

    As to your point on mudpond; IMHO, while while the murky or green water reduce sunlight penetration, it doesn't reduce the UV rays which is claimed to provide vitamins for improving skin quality.

    Looks like I'm back to square one on this banghead . My Contractor is coming sometime this week to renovate the porch roof over my pond. Should I carry on with it? I believe it's a balance factor between quality water, genes and sunlight. I'm at least fixing one of it, I hope...
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur July 2012
    Posts: 808
    I had built a few indoor pond and a covered pond using polycarbonate that deflect 70-80% of UV ray without having issue on beni. Bro Smoker pond glass roof also that laminate using V-KOOL which usually use in cars, that reflect uv ray and heat. But color food play major role in shaded pond, and cooler temp beuatify koi skin.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • ikankoikauikankoikau July 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro Pandai,
    Your Hoshikin kohaku is the best among all. (Y) Will strongly strengthen KL team on this coming GO judgement. :-D

    When you keep or buying kois, the best is to ask yourself what is your intention? Is it just to keep at home with average quality? Or to have show quality kois regardless of competing or not in koi shows?

    With the second option, you will definitely buy less koi but may need to pay more. Or else you will be buying and culling maybe at the same time over and over again.

    For show quality kois, I will keep the Hoshikin Kohaku, Budo Goromo and the Shiro. No sentimental about it. ;-) Looking at your kichiness trend, I can see you are clearly going for show quality koi. The Yamabuki Ogon is good but like what you have said, you pond may have issue on sunlight. Actually too much sunlight will not be good to most kois varieties esp with shallow pond.

    My ponds have different characteristic. The big one is for Go Sanke with colour food fed. The small pond in for Non Gosanke and no colour fed at all. Our pond can influence good and bad on certain varieties. Time and close observation will allow you to recognize this.

    From the pictures, the kohaku, goromo and shiro have good shiroji even with yellowish head. Other words, strong resistance against ceratine which one of the contributing factor for turning white shiroji into yellowish. I noticed, genetic and gender play a very important rule in sustaining good shiroji. Of course basic things like water, environment and food do play their part.

    On feeding regime, we got ask ourselves what are we trying to achieve. Fast growth with good beni at the same time needs a very high quality koi to achieve this and good water quality too. When I visited Tani FF, I was told that you need to open up the tosai body frame early so that the growth rate will be good in future. But close monitoring must be applied as you don't want to lose the hi or beni. If you feed lightly during tossai so the beni remains red, there is a possibility that those tossai will have growth issue later on.

    Sometimes, not to lose the beni on tossai, you need to feed higher percentage of colour food even 100% esp those weak beni or small stressed up tossai. Bare in mind, colour food contained high protein too. Some easily above 40% and this alone will promote growth.

    I think I have been strucked by midnite syndrome. So much to write at the wrong thread some more :-D . So sleepy to delete. I better stop now. :-))

    Regards
  • pandaipandai July 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Bro Capt.

    Thank you for the very insightful advice. In a way, it helped me make up my mind on which of my fish is going to bro Mr. Koi's mud pond this time! :-D .

    Thank you too for helping me put clarity into my koi keeping vision - I think what I want is to raise "show quality" koi but not neccesarily to enter koi shows. On paying the respective price for them; it's evident now from my willingness to pay a few times over of the price of what I used to pay for tosais... :)>-

    One of the main problem with car-porch compact pond like mine is the "rojak" all-in-one living quarters for the kois i.e. all variety had to share same pond, big, small, gosanke, non-gosanke, male, female and all together hence it's difficult to provide optimum condition for each respective needs. The obvious solution is indeed very obvious - buy a new house with a huge yard and build 3 ponds! Anyone want to help with that??? :-))

    Anyway, on the sunlight; the pond reno will only allow more sunlight but not too much of it. Due to the positioning of the pond and angle of sunlight path, it will only add a couple of hours of direct sunlight to the pond, which is much more than it is now i.e. close to none. I do take note of bro Harry's advice earlier. Maybe I might end up with spray bars as well one day!!! (oh, HM is going to kill me!!!)

    Feeding specific food type is always a challenge in a single-pond environment. I'll be wasting my colour food on my non-gosanke and protein food on my sansais! I will also face deteriorating water quality problem whenever I tried to feed them kaw-kaw.

    Well, having said all that, the challenge remains in providing the best condition and environment for our beloved kois to thrive. Everyone's opinion so far gathered around the expensive kois so it explains that we actually pay for quality at our dealers here... which is good.

    On the yamabuki ogon; the good one is not home yet ;-) The pond reno is dedicated to him/her. So, bro, you still owe me a visit as you promised to help me with the culling list. Free anytime soon??? :-?
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • ikankoikauikankoikau July 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro,
    Oh ya lar. Sorry bro, seldom drive down to KL lately. We will make time for it. I believe many hobbyist would love to joint in. ;-)
  • JamesJames July 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Pandai, my pond is overstocked with gosanke, shiro, non-gosanke. Pls don't tell me they cannot co-exist. All kois in there are show grade kois and many show winners. I think it is about knowing how to manage and monitor. Many of us do not have multiple ponds for multiple varieties. That does not stop us from enjoying the various varieties.

    If you look at your kois long enough, you will start to notice certain habits, and you can manage your feeding, etc according to those habits.
  • HDCuHDCu July 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Pandai,

    Even at 5 ton pond setup and overcrowded condition, adequate growth can still be achieved in comparison to a mudpond. The three key elements are genetics, water quality and food.

    With high quality gosanke which are more expensive most of the time, the beni and growth is matched. A good example is some jumbo tosais with strong beni. It is not only the size that makes them expensive, its also their gentic makeup to retain their beni despite the strong growth as a tosai.

    With regards to water quality, I believe its not only keeping ammonia and nitrite to zero that is important. Water change is very important to develop the koi to its full potential especially in a closed system small pond setup. In A twenty ton pond with 20 medium size kois which receives 10 percent water change a day and a 300 grams of high protein feed a day, the water quality as compared to fresh water will deteriorate slower as compared to a 5 ton pond with 10 medium size kois receiving 150 grams of koi food with also 10 percent water change a day. I dont know why many mention 10 percent a day but 10 percent IMO works best in medium size ponds of 16 to 25 tons with a 1 ton to 2 tons of water per large koi and adequate feeding. For smaller ponds setups to achieve the same growth levels of bigger ponds, the percent of water change should be considerably more to remove hormone buildup, toxins and DOC that filtration cannot remove.
  • pandaipandai July 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Bro James,

    Thanks for the reassurance. In that case, I believe there is still hope for newbies and "rojak-pond" owner like me... ;-)

    Bro HDCu,

    Thanks for the advice. Currently I do not have a continous overflow as one of the mistake I did when building my pond was to have the top up line too close to the overflow outlet. I however still do manual top up every evening (whenever I'm at home, and up to it!) so my water change regime has not been so disciplined. I'm planning to install a water inlet on the opposite side of the pond for a proper continous overflow.
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • mangkellmangkell July 2012
    Posts: 1,221
    Bro Pandai,

    Bravoo... Your first measure & photo sessions yaa... =D>

    Me still fobia after my black chagoi FB2J in my QT.... qt tank too small...

    Moral is, don't qt unless really necessary L-)
    Mickeyko Ducati-Kujamon Chagreemon Brabus#Sexy-Robust
  • pandaipandai August 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Bro mangkell,

    I only dare to bring out the tosais and small nisais only. The sansais near 70 cm I dare not lah - unless got sifus around to help... :-ss
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • pandaipandai August 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Just sharing something I read on the internet on the topic of sunlight:

    <I>Most of the animals that live on earth need sunlight in some way, either indirectly or directly. Koi need sunlight in both ways. Be it in the plants they eat or for their color pigments that they produce.

    Natural sunlight brightens a Koi’s colors. This is most evident with the Yamabuki Ogon. If a Yamabuki Ogon is kept in an indoor tank with only regular lighting, its yellow color will fade. But, if the Yamabuki Ogon is put in an outdoor pond, its color will return within a couple months. The same applies for Kohakus, Sankes, Showas ect.

    Koi actually look better in natural sunlight too. There’s something about the broad spectrum of light that the sun produces that brings out the natural beauty of Koi. A good way to see this example yourself is to take two pictures. Take one of a Koi when it’s indoors under a regular light and one of a Koi outside on a nice sunny day. Compare the two photos and it’s easy to tell which one looks better.

    Natural sunlight also makes Koi healthier. The sun will warm the water up and will also boost a Koi’s immune system. Humans get vitamin D from the sun, fish do not. They must get it from plants or the small organisms that they eat. Vitamin D is essential for good growth and strong bones.

    Natural sunlight is also beneficial to aquatic plants too. Aquatic plants require sunlight for photosynthesis, which is the process that a plant uses in order to make food and oxygen.

    The sun poses dangers to Koi too. A pond in direct sunlight can easily overheat in the summer. When the pond temperature goes up, oxygen levels go down. Don’t forget about UV radiation from to sun too. A pond should always have a shaded area. This will provide a place for the Koi to go to during the hottest and brightest parts of the day. The shade will also help keep the pond temperatures down too.

    Natural sunlight has a compounding beneficial affect on Koi. It gives them food, makes them healthier and it makes them more beautiful.

    http://www.nishikigoi-info.com/koi-care/sunlight.html
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • pandaipandai August 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Finally collected my yamabuki ogon at Bro Raymond's pond today. Now, I can say I have a proper ogon - although size wise, nowhere near Bro Idris' ogon who is still there... hehe... This one is from Izumiya farm, now tosai going to nisai at 35 cm (I think it grew some 7 cm or so in the last 3 weeks while staying in that magical pond!!!). From my unexpert hands and eyes during sexing just now, I think it's female. I didn't lick it though... :-D

    Do you think it has potential? :-?

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/8589/9-05082012 yamabuki ogon2 35cm.jpg
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • megatronmegatron August 2012
    Posts: 832
    (Y) Nice ogon
    Don't ask me why!!!
  • gerrygerry August 2012
    Posts: 777
    Very nice yamabuki bro Pandai... Love the clean head and the shine... :)
  • NeliNeli August 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    Bro Megatron,
    I would not ask U! He he he! Dont worry!
    The picture is a bit too much from the front...so the gills look as if they are a bit pinched...
    If u leak it...U will know for sure it is a boy...he he he!
  • ikankoikauikankoikau August 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Good shine bro. Lick and see... :p
  • DanleeDanlee August 2012
    Posts: 694
    Bro Pandai,

    Very nice yamabuki... good shine, clean head, even colour from head to tail. Now, you need some sunlight in your pond to maintain the colour and shine.. Have you completed your minor reno? Bro, very good pick overall..
    Post edited by Danlee at 2012-08-05 09:41:38 am
  • pandaipandai August 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Thanks all for the kind comments. There's also some help from the macro function on the camera I think. Anyway, I'm satisfied with my choice. Capt. @ikankoikau, I will reserve the licking to sifus like you lah... Bro Daniel, yes, sunlight is on! In fact, they just finished the reno work yesterday afternoon. Hope the sun will shine.... :-D
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/

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