My Humble Minimalist Koi Pond and Kois (Bro Indra)
  • IndraWIndraW July 2012
    Posts: 33
    Hi bros and sis,

    after been a silent reader for a long time, let me share my minimalist pond :

    [IMG]http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z91/CRS-mania/1-3.jpg[/IMG]

    dimension : 4.7 m x 2.5 m x 1.5 m
    pump : 2 x bosco 150 watt @12,500 L / hour
    aeration : 1 x 120 watt yasunaga hi blow
    filtration : rotary drum filter (mechanic), jap matt (biology), oyster shell (buffer)
    UV : switched off

    TDS : 60
    pH : 6
    Temperature : 26-28 (thanks to fan :p)

    rotary drum filter
    [IMG]http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z91/CRS-mania/6.jpg[/IMG]


    pre filter water treatment (manganese green sand and demin filter)
    [IMG]http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z91/CRS-mania/7.jpg[/IMG]


    Livestocks : 6 kois 60-75 cm, 1 koi 55 cm, 1 koi 40 cm
    [IMG]http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z91/CRS-mania/4-1.jpg[/IMG]
    [IMG]http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z91/CRS-mania/3-1.jpg[/IMG]



    This pond is 5 months old. not mature enough yet, but lately all the parameters are stable.
    Cannot wait to feed as much as possible to bulk up the kois :D. they are little bit skinny now.

    there was sad story about this pond. i lost my best koi and almost lost all of my kois in the first day when i first introduced them here (6 kois from old pond) :( . I decided to change all the water with mountain water in the next morning and luckily all the remaining kois survived.

    that happened because i didn't check the water source. After the accident i found that my water source has very high in Mn (3 ppm) and Fe (2 ppm). Thats why i installed manganese green sand for pre filter water treatment.





    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-07-28 03:42:59 pm
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Hi there Bro IndraW,
    Welcome and a big thanks for sharing your pond and your kois. Are you from Indonesia by any chance? Nice pond and beautiful surroundings and landscape. One of those few that uses RDF. Possibly you can let us know about the Pro and Cons of the RDF. You are real Hi tacky person. And sorry to hear about the initial fatalities.

    Once again nice pond.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • IndraWIndraW July 2012
    Posts: 33
    bro shukri, yes im from indonesia.
    rdf is very popular here, especially after the local producer finally produce the stable (maybe ultimate) version. in the past many local version of rdf and they are not working properly, a lot of trouble reported.

    pros :

    1. you will have very clean biology chamber because of the screen (40 /80 micron)
    2. maintenance free (automatic backwash and water refill by censor)

    cons :

    1. relatively expensive
    2. needs good after sales service
    3. you have to spend a little time to know how it works


  • kensutantokensutanto July 2012
    Posts: 12
    Bro Indra,

    Very nice pond. Wonder from which city of Indonesia ? What is the size of your biological filter ? How long have you been in this hobby ?

    It is a very nice pond (Y).
  • HDCuHDCu July 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi Bro Indra,

    Can I know what is your current daily water change rate?
    Do you have any yellowing of water due to phospate increase as a result of very few water change in many RDF installation?
    You mention a 26 to 28 degree water temperature because of a fan, is that the surface temperature, bottom temperature or temperature of water in the biofilter?

    BTW, very nice clean looking pond. Sorry for your loss of kois, must have been painful.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur July 2012
    Posts: 808
    Nice Pond Bro Indra,

    What i notice is that you need the open and clean your screen or change it. There is slime built inside the screen, you may notice the brownish color. If this not changed, then the cleaning frequency will get shorter and shorter and it will also affect the water flow.

    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • IndraWIndraW July 2012
    Posts: 33
    @kensutanto
    my biological filter only 1.4 m x 1.1 m x 1.5 m... (i think its not enough) hahhaa
    i lived in tangerang, started this hobby from 2004... and got addicted since 2008 :D

    @HDCU

    1. 10% daily water change ( other than rdf auto refill, i also inject new water 4 hours a day using timer)

    2. my yellowish water may be caused by my heavy feeding lately + i did not use UV. increasing daily water change become 20% may help, but i dont want to waste so much water...any suggestion bro ?

    3. its the surface temperature in the pond and biofilter... many people didnt believe fan can help you to lowering down the water temperature, from my experience it really helps.
  • IndraWIndraW July 2012
    Posts: 33
    bro harry luhur,

    thank you for your suggestion. last time when the technician checked it, the screen is in good condition. he said the brownish may be caused by very high Mn and Fe in the water before i install the manganese filter. In fact, the screen become brown within a few days after the installation.

    i will check it again, if there is too much slime inside.
  • kensutantokensutanto July 2012
    Posts: 12
    Bro Indra,

    I live in Citra garden, border to Tangerang. Is it possible to visit your pond ?
    Would like to see in details your filter system.

    My pond is semi indoor size 1.8 (W) x 4.0 (L) x 1.8 (D) meter. It is quite similar size to yours.
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    BTW, where about is Tangerang? Just for the information for the others.........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur July 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Indra, please do check the screen, sometimes spraying won't clean it all, try to rub with spons.

    Bro Shukri, Tangerang is outside Jakarta, maybe around 20-30km
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • IndraWIndraW July 2012
    Posts: 33
    @kensutanto
    of course bro, please check ur pm

    @shukri
    bro, if you have been to jakarta im sure you have been to tangerang also.
    Soekarno-Hatta international airport geographically is located in tangerang but jakarta claimed it hahhaha :D
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Indra, ooooh OK. I have been to Jakarta many times. Then in one way or another,I probably would have passed through or have been there.......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar July 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro IndraW,
    Very nice pond you have....
    You collections looks really nice, can you post the pictures of the Koi's please?
  • NeliNeli July 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    Bro indra,
    very nice smart pond...Congrats!
  • AnuarAnuar July 2012
    Posts: 688
    Bro Indra,

    You have a nice cool looking pond, congratulations.

    Can I just double confirm that your ph level is @ 6.00? To most of us, it seems too low.

    Regards.
  • HDCuHDCu July 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro IndraW,

    You said you are topping an additional 10 percent water for four hours. Did you reduce first your water by ten percent or just let it overflow? There is a big difference between the two in terms of percent of water change.

    The yellowing in the water is phosphate buildup. You can try activated carbon or a phospate remover.
  • IndraWIndraW July 2012
    Posts: 33
    @Bthineshkumar
    i will post it later on bro...maybe next month when i bowl and measure them all.

    @Neli
    thank you

    @Anuar
    i checked it with the test kit a few times... i will buy a new test kit later on to double check it. thanks for your advise bro.

    @HDCU
    i just let it overflow bro...

    could you please share with me, which method is better ?
    increasing the daily water change or using active carbon/phosphate remover ?

  • IndraWIndraW July 2012
    Posts: 33
    Here is the video of my koi.... please advise whether the water is too yellowish ?
    the fish is little bit skinny and just get better.....their appetite is getting better and better.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4ebtVJLTzrY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    http://youtu.be/4ebtVJLTzrY

    anyone can help to show the video here ? hahaha
    Post edited by IndraW at 2012-07-30 07:35:47 pm
  • HDCuHDCu July 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro IndraW,

    If it is just overflow, you are not effectively changing 10 percent new water a day. You can try draining first 5 percent of the water and then filling it 5 percent new water over a two hour period and then repeating it after 12 hours. Try to see if water looks clearer first. You can also try an ozonator to remove yellowing. The activated carbon helps clear up also( as your source water seems to have some heavy metal toxins, activated carbon is important). Phosphate remover is more expensive than water change.

    update: looks like water is much transparent now in your new video. Nice fish!
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-07-30 07:39:20 pm
  • mrkoimrkoi July 2012
    Posts: 496
    <object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4ebtVJLTzrY?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4ebtVJLTzrY?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>
  • grinkz01grinkz01 July 2012
    Posts: 530
    hello bro indra..very nice pond and garden there...from the video i dont see yellowish water,all looks clear to me. i love ur big kohaku,strong&bulky body yet superb beni...
    about water change..better if u can arrange backwash combined with overflow...
    i believe soon u will get ur pond overcrowded...ha...ha...ha...
  • IndraWIndraW August 2012
    Posts: 33
    @grinkz01
    i overcome the overcrowded syndrome bro hahha....
    now im am very strick. if i want to add new koi, i will remove the old one hahaha....

    i check again the pH, still the same.

    Pond's pH 6
    water source's pH 5.5

    now i am trying to add sodium bicarbonate to increase the pH slowly
  • wongyengwongyeng August 2012
    Posts: 238
    Bro Indra, nice pond and lovely kois... Is there some kind of water current in the pond and what about aeration ? Your pond appears quite calm :)

    BTW, your livestock number very good. My pond is about 80% your size but I have 17 kois :"> ... Now need to reduce to around 9 pcs.
  • IndraWIndraW August 2012
    Posts: 33
    hi bro wongyen,

    i turned off the aeration, otherwise it will be hard to see my kois :-))
    the current in the pond come from the aeration (3 m uniring put on the life side of the pond) and 2 bosco pump @12,500 L/hour)

    regarding the overstock, i also experienced it before (who didn't ? :-)) )
    good luck for your culling :-D
  • ShukriShukri August 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Indra,
    The pH of your water source is kinda low.........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    5.5 - 6 PH is quite acidic already and would kill nitrifying bacteria in the filter already. I still think you are not getting the correct PH reading. What is the KH level? 50 ppm is the recommended level.
  • IndraWIndraW August 2012
    Posts: 33
    @Shukri

    Yes, thats why i need to do something.... i slowly add sodium bicarbonate since yesterday.

    @HDCU

    i guess its correct bro, when i test my drinking water the pH was 7.

    KH from water source is almost 0 because i use demin pre filter (water source TDS from the filter is 12)

    thats why i use sodium bicarbonate now.
    maybe have to add small amount every day.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Indra,

    What pH meter brand you use? Is it calibrate? pH meter need to calibrated regularly. Our tap water (Jakarta) is around 7,2-7,5 after aerated, while bottled mineral water like "aqua" brand is around 8+.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar August 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro Indra,
    Why don't you try to add oyster shell? It should help you buffer the pH.
    Just my 2 cent
  • AnuarAnuar August 2012
    Posts: 688
    Bro Indra,

    In my case (happens in my qt) if the Ph drops to 6, I will see redness on some parts of the kois body - they are still eating and active but I think the acidic water would "eat up" the kois skin...

    I tried using baking soda, but this is not sustainable as you'd need to top up almost everyday. Agreed with Bro Btineshkumar that the best option is to buffer with oyster shell, and since your source water is acidic, you'd need plenty of them, say 5KG per tonne of water.

    If you have an electronic ph tester, it is also worthwhile to test your ph at a few intervals, morning, afternoon, midnight and dawn - most important thing is to ensure that the ph does not swing too much, in most cases the ph would be at its lowest very late at night when oxygen at the pond is at the lowest.

    Good luck.
  • IndraWIndraW August 2012
    Posts: 33
    @harry_luhur

    i use azoo and jbl test kit bro....and i just ordered pH meter for better accuracy. thank you for your info bro, i will update it again when i got the pH meter hahaha.....

    @bthineskumar and anuar

    i have around 20 kg oyster shell in my filter chamber...maybe its not enough. im planning to add some coral chips. which one is better ?

    yes bro, there are some redness especially my tancho.
    thank you for all of the suggestions, it really helpful.



    additional info : pH from the ground water is 7,after demin filter it drops to 5.5. maybe because demin filter absorb almost all bicarbonate ion. kH reading is 0 after the demin filter.




  • HDCuHDCu August 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro IndraW,

    I am perplexed that you are able to maintain a Ph of 6 without experiencing a so called ph crash.
    As a backgrounder, here are the facts on the living parameters of nitrifying bacteria:

    Temperature:
    The temperature for optimum growth of nitrifying bacteria is between 77-86° F (25-30° C).
    Growth rate is decreased by 50% at 64° F (18° C).
    Growth rate is decreased by 75% at 46-50° F.
    No activity will occur at 39° F (4° C)
    Nitrifying bacteria will die at 32° F (0° C).
    Nitrifying bacteria will die at 120° F (49° C)

    Nitrobacter is less tolerant of low temperatures than Nitrosomonas. In cold water systems, care must be taken to monitor the accumulation of nitrites.

    pH

    The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0.
    The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.3-7.5
    Nitrobacter will grow more slowly at the high pH levels typical of marine aquaria and preferred by African Rift Lake Cichlids. Initial high nitrite concentrations may exist. At pH levels below 7.0, Nitrosomonas will grow more slowly and increases in ammonia may become evident. Nitrosomonas growth is inhibited at a pH of 6.5. All nitrification is inhibited if the pH drops to 6.0 or less. Care must be taken to monitor ammonia if the pH begins to drop close to 6.5. At this pH almost all of the ammonia present in the water will be in the mildly toxic, ionized NH3+ state.

    Dissolved Oxygen

    Maximum nitrification rates will exist if dissolved oxygen (DO) levels exceed 80% saturation. Nitrification will not occur if DO concentrations drop to 2.0 mg/l (ppm) or less. Nitrobacter is more strongly affected by low DO than NITROSOMONAS.



    There is a statement there that mentions that "ALL nitrification is inhibited if the PH drops to 6.0 or less. "

    So the big question is if your PH is truly 6 ph only, your system would have experience a PH crash already as your biological nitrifiers should not be working based on above data.

    IMO, as most mechanical organic waste are immediately removed instead of allowed to settle, there is not much heterotropic bacteria to multiple as too release further acid by products. Your 10 percent daily water change and your present low stocking level helps dilute any ammonia buildup instead of relying on nitrifying bacteria. Your use of a few kilos of oyster shell also had been helpful in increasing and stabilizing your PH from 5.5 to 6. I think if one of these factors were missing then the result might be different.

    Nevertheless, to maintain a constant PH of 6 is still threading in dangerous grounds.
  • AnuarAnuar August 2012
    Posts: 688
    Bro Indra,

    I am not sure what demin filters does but if it is causing the drop in ph you would probably need to investigate. If the incoming flow is at ph 5.5 dont think you would ever be able to hit ph of 7 especially if you are doing daily flushing.

    I am not sure how the buffering mechanism works in the oyster shells but suspect the shells only start "producing" carbonate agents after ph drops to a certain level?

    Regards.
  • IndraWIndraW August 2012
    Posts: 33
    @HDCU

    thank you so much for your technical help...

    "IMO, as most mechanical organic waste are immediately removed instead of allowed to settle, there is not much heterotropic bacteria to multiple as too release further acid by products. Your 10 percent daily water change and your present low stocking level helps dilute any ammonia buildup instead of relying on nitrifying bacteria. Your use of a few kilos of oyster shell also had been helpful in increasing and stabilizing your PH from 5.5 to 6. I think if one of these factors were missing then the result might be different.

    Nevertheless, to maintain a constant PH of 6 is still threading in dangerous grounds."

    You have very good analytical skill bro. i think you just solve my pond's mystery hahaha..... i also feel something is not right with this pond, thats why i want to increase the pH.

    after a few days of adding sodium bicarbonate, now the pH reading is 6.5
    however my fishes is somehow not comfortable, although they still eating.
    maybe they needs an adaptation.


    @Anuar

    demin filter is basically produce water with very low TDS ( in my case, the TDS is only 9-12 after demin filter).

    similar to RO, in term of the result.





  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Indra,

    What is the source TDS? Demin usually use ion exchange resin. It capture calcium but release sodium.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • IndraWIndraW August 2012
    Posts: 33
    TDS of water source is around 180

    demin filter consist of 2 resin ( cation resin and anion resin)


    1. cation resin

    when you regenerate it with NaCl, it become softener (capture calcium and magnesium but release sodium).

    when you regenerate it with HCl, it become demin and capture calcium, magnesium and sodium.

    2. Anion resin

    it capture bicarbonate and other anion in your water source. This resin is the one who significantly lowering your TDS. Regenerate it with NaOH.


    Best Regards,

    Indra

    Post edited by IndraW at 2012-08-08 06:56:42 pm
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur August 2012
    Posts: 808
    Yes,
    Mistakenly softener and demin
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur

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