Total Dissolved Solids (TDS)
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    I was discussing this subject with Bro TS on the discussion started by Bro Shukri "What are you guys doing on this Saturday?" and since the discussion went on for some time, Bro TS felt that it is better to start a new discussion here. So here I am.

    I just bought a TDS meter about 10 days ago and what prompted me to hunt for the TDS meter was the article written by Mike Snaden on TDS entitled "Dissolve This" at yumekoi.co.uk and another 1 or 2 articles written on the same subject at the same site.

    So far, I have found the TDS meter to be cheap (at RM100) and useful. My source water TDS is around 70 to 75 and my main pond water at below 115 and small pond with the RDF at below 110. It is useful as the reading will tell us something about the water quality. If we overflow and change the more water, the TDS would drop. If we feed less or stop feeding for a day or 2, the TDS would likewise drop. If we feed the same amount throughout and keep the overflow rate constant throughout, the TDS should increase gradually over time and when the TDS hits a certain set level, it is time to wash the filter or if we are busy or lazy, increase the overflow rate or reduce the feeding while we find time to wash the filter say the following weekend. In this way, chances of water turning bad is much reduced.

    Mike Snaden says that he prefers to keep the TDS to be between 20 to 30 higher than the source water TDS and anything more than 50 is unacceptable. In my case, I set my level at 50 when I need to quickly reduce the TDS.

    Another usage as I share with Bro TS was that low TDS differential may indicate underfeeding like in my neighbour, Kueh CP's case where his TDS differential is around 20. CP has a 50 ton pond with a population of 40 mainly above 60cm. He was feeding 700 g a day and his fish look pretty skinny. He has since increased his feeding to 800g per day and monitoring the TDS level. I believe most of us would be overfeeding rather than underfeeding. But if the pond is understocked like Bro Paul's, even overfeeding will not raise the TDS by very much. Therefore, it is quite a useful tool to have for most of us who tend to overstock and overfeed.

    Cheers,

    Alan
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-11-02 10:18:22 am
  • JamesJames November 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Alan, where and how did you get the TDS meter again? And how does it look like!! Alamak, rearing koi now like rocket science!

    And since TDS differential increases over time, how much time should it take to register a reading of +20 or +30 to indicate ideal feeding? Because if we measure TDS right after a water change, it will be low right, despite already being overfed.
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    Bro Alan, using TDS meter as an indication to clean filter and reduce food or increase water flow is a good solution.. Now we only check ammonia or nitrate but those tester are never accurate.. Maybe we should group up and get some tds meter..
  • DanleeDanlee November 2010
    Posts: 694
    Bro Andy,

    Count me in if you are grouping up to buy the tds meter.
  • Denn7Denn7 November 2010
    Posts: 331
    Count me in too!
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    Bro James, the TDS meter can't tell you how much to feed your koi but it can certainly tell you based on your current feeding regime, when is the ideal time to clean your filter. When you first clean your filter, the tds should drop much closer to your source water and gradually increases over time when our filter gets clogged up with waste. When it touches that level, it is time to wash our filter.

    According to Mike Snaden's article, koi will grow beautifully in soft water with low tds and in Japan, they try to keep tds below 50. In Birstol where Mike is, the tap water tds is above 300 and koi hardly grow a few cm a year. Mike has to resort to RO water (75%) mixed with tap water (25%) to keep the tds down. We are lucky in Malaysia that our source water is around 60 to 75. Contrary to our belief and perception, the mud pond water has also low tds according to Mike.

    I got my meter on ebay. My wife got 4 for me for less than rm100 each. Bro TS just got a better one for about the same price.
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-11-02 11:15:44 am
  • cookcpucookcpu November 2010
    Posts: 462
    Hmm....interesting subject.

    I have a TDS meter but I don't know how to interpret the reading. My old pond TDS reading is 360 and now after I have redo my pond. The current reading is around 199 with 2.1 percent salt and refresh powder in the water.

    I guess I have to test my tap water TDS reading in order to have a clearer picture of the pond water state of health so to speak.
  • FPSooFPSoo November 2010
    Posts: 370
    Hi,

    This link may provide you more information about water hardness which is related to TDS meter measurement....http://www.angelfire.com/home/drttk/information/water.html
  • FPSooFPSoo November 2010
    Posts: 370
    go to this link and look down at the water quality and you can find a lot of useful information not only about water hardness (total dissolved solid)...http://applejack1.com/Pond/KOIWaterQuality.htm
  • FPSooFPSoo November 2010
    Posts: 370
    in this next link, you can find interesting information about how water hardness are defined...http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/waterchemistry.htm like the example below including how to reduce or increase the GH...

    happy reading...

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/357/softorhard.JPG
    Post edited by AndySitt at 2010-11-02 01:17:01 pm
  • JamesJames November 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Alan, always interesting to learn from your ways... I will try to get Bro TS' meter from the site mentioned.... and hope my koi grow as beautifully as yours.
  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    Bros,

    Looks like many interested in the subject. Good to see Bro Soo also contributing to the discussion too (ok)

    My first reading;
    a) Rawang source water - 40ppm . Very soft . Direct source pipe without any filtration.
    b) Pond water - 99ppm. Should not be more than 50 increment, need to read up on it. Not good maybe due to addition of MGF ( malachite green & formalin- Misaki) double dose two days ago and no water change for two day. Filter is cleaned before MGF application. No salt added. I have been feeding heavily with Marubeni/Hikari Colour abt 0.75% - 1% for the past one-1.5 month. Water change was abt 5-10% per day for past month.
    c) Salt will increase the reading by a lot. Went up to 2360ppm went some salt added.Hence not sure reading still applicable for the purpose of water monitoring based on increment of 50ppm. Did not take the salinity reading of this solution.
    d) Source water - 42ppm after passing thro household filter made from carbon/clay material.
    e) Subang Jaya/Shah Alam source water unfiltered - 58ppm.
    f) RO Water Cactus brand - 0 ppm. Good test for accuracy of TDS meter (grin)
    g) Aquarium water - 658ppm! My kids mini aquarium with an upside down catfish. Super clear so never need to change water! No wonder all other fishes added died. Poluted water! :-o

    Will try with bentonite clay soon. My TDS meter is not water proof, maybe good idea to get one that is waterproof. I DIY the waterproof by sealing with silicone the battery compartment. Well for Rm100 i am happy. (rock)

    ;-) ;-)

    rgd
    ts
    Post edited by lauts at 2010-11-03 12:28:10 am
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    I would be interested to get one as well. Bro James, can tumpang? I read some where, that you intend to finish the sumi, hard water is required. Soft water is good for Kohaku's beni. So how we need to build several ponds at home. 1 pond for shiro, 1 pond for kohaku, one pond for tricolor fish. haha...
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • JamesJames November 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Elmen, of course can... I'll try to find out more..
  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Elmen, James

    I have email you Bro Elmen , the details of the two models i enquire, ie Rm95 and RM125 unit ,they have others more pricy ones. , you can share with the members . Still can't figure out how to post pict. Note the temp function not so good , only one digit ie 29deg, better if 29.2deg so consider the RM125 maybe waterproof. The person Anah is very helpful.

    Quite true on the sumi, except Atarashi sumi , even in my soft water looks/develop well. Most of my shiro have poor sumi , maybe genetics but improved a lot with the bentonite clay i am using. I am considering to cut down on usage of the clay by half as i dont not want to finish them so fast, maybe. :-( .

    The more you think you know, the more you know not (headbang) .

    :-) ;-)
    rgd
    ts




  • kennywankennywan November 2010
    Posts: 21
    Bros,
    Would also like to tumpang order the waterproof units.

    Bro Elmen,
    Mind sharing the detail information from TS?
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Who ever is ordering, please order 1 unit for me........ :)
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    Here is the information from Bro Lau. There is no mention about water proof or not.
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
    Attachments
    tds.pdf 544K
  • DanleeDanlee November 2010
    Posts: 694
    Bro Elmen, can help to ask for group discount from supllier? Here is the list of people that has expressed interest thus far. Please add to this list if you are interested.

    1. Andy Sitt
    2. Daniel Lee
    3. Tan Sri (Denning)
    4. James
    5. Elmen
    6. Kenny Wan
    7. Shukri
  • AnuarAnuar November 2010
    Posts: 688
    1. Andy Sitt
    2. Daniel Lee
    3. Tan Sri (Denning)
    4. James
    5. Elmen
    6. Kenny Wan
    7. Shukri
    8. Anuar
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    <blockquote rel="Danlee">Bro Elmen, can help to ask for group discount from supllier? Here is the list of people that has expressed interest thus far. Please add to this list if you are interested.

    1. Andy Sitt
    2. Daniel Lee
    3. Tan Sri (Denning)
    4. James
    5. Elmen
    6. Kenny Wan
    7. Shukri</blockquote>

    Ok let's see how many interested.
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • kennywankennywan November 2010
    Posts: 21
    Bros,

    Spoken to Nikom @ 03-3392 6998 and the best site to review HM Digital Handheld meters is www.hmdigital.com
  • JamesJames November 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Elmen, sorry ar! Supposed to be me helping out to buy, now become your baby.... if u need me to take over lemme know, since u might be busy for GO which I am unable to help with...

    I might ask my client in water filtration system if there are better units out there...
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    Guy I think the one Nikom sells is this:

    http://nikomgroup.com/catalog/details.asp?id=1382

    I can get this from China and cost about USD30 each inc delivery.. I think the unit from China is more advance but as usual if its not working.. then warranty is a problem.. Similar TDS meter as above cost about USD20.

    Key Features:

    * Waterproof
    * Low Power Consumption
    * Automatice Switch-off
    * Low-battery Alarm (as long as there is any display the accuracy is guaranteed)

    Specification:
    Model ZTS-ppt
    Measuring Range 0-10.00 ppt
    Resolution 0.01 ppt
    Accuracy ±2% FS
    Temp 5 - 50°C (ATC)
    Size 150 x 32 x 16 mm

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/381/tds.jpg
    Post edited by AndySitt at 2010-11-03 07:05:31 am
    Attachments
    tds.jpg 22K
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Dear Forumers,
    This is an essential tool to have, and only cheap one la! The more units will bring the price down........ :) :) :)
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    Bro, USD30 is not much difference from RM100 and maybe cost more. If no warranty then better get locally. Nikom unit is Made in Korea so I think it's not HM Digital.

    Bro James, please take over and appreciate your help in this. As you know, I got 2 kinds of new arrival to my home soon - busy days ahead. But you are also busy with your showroom?
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
    Post edited by etano at 2010-11-03 07:29:36 am
  • JamesJames November 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Elmen, yes crazy with the showroom.... u know how contractors are! I am going to try a new brand recommended by my client, who are experts in quality water.... for humans, but will be more costly with multiple parameter.

    Will update.
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    happen to call bro Aaron and he mention that he has TDS meter.. he's selling at a special price of RM90- while stock last.. I will drop by Friday to get 2 units..
  • ThiamHwaThiamHwa November 2010
    Posts: 260
    1. Andy Sitt
    2. Daniel Lee
    3. Tan Sri (Denning)
    4. James
    5. Elmen
    6. Kenny Wan
    7. Shukri
    8. Anuar
    9. Thiam Hwa

  • KaajKaaj November 2010
    Posts: 376
    1. Andy Sitt
    2. Daniel Lee
    3. Tan Sri (Denning)
    4. James
    5. Elmen
    6. Kenny Wan
    7. Shukri
    8. Anuar
    9. Thiam Hwa
    10. Kaaj

    Question - do you need to do the TDS reading from several areas in the pond or just 1?
  • DanleeDanlee November 2010
    Posts: 694
    I managed to book one unit from Bro Aaron...

    1. Tan Sri (Denning)
    2. James
    3. Elmen
    4. Kenny Wan
    5. Shukri
    6. Anuar
    7. Thiam Hwa
    8. Kaaj
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Guys, I just want to get one...........does not really matter what's the price and from who........Anyone coordinating this?
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • JamesJames November 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Shukri, I am going to get an imported model that is waterproof, floats on water and measures other parameters, ie temp, pH, salinity, TDS & conductivity.

    I tend to prefer investing in a good unit that will be reliable and lasts. But the other bros can decide what they want for themselves. I will post the details of the unit once I call them tomorrow.
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    1. Tan Sri (Denning)
    2. James
    3. Kenny Wan
    4. Shukri
    5. Anuar
    6.. Thiam Hwa
    7. Kaaj'

    Bro I ordered from Aaron already.
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    Bro I think the unit Aaron has is the same as the one Nikom sells.. I havent seen it yet but most are the same..

    I am planning to get one of this as well so I can permanently put the probe under the water..

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/385/tds.jpg
    Post edited by AndySitt at 2010-11-03 11:37:55 pm
    Attachments
    tds.jpg 81K
  • kennywankennywan November 2010
    Posts: 21
    1. Tan Sri (Denning)
    2. James
    3. Shukri
    4. Anuar
    5. Thiam Hwa
    6. Kaaj

    A kind bro will buy one on my behalf.
    Post edited by kennywan at 2010-11-04 04:26:01 am
  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    Bros ,

    Need to consider whether all in one or separate testers better? I have a salinity meter Koi Medic abt Rm280 , pH and Temp by Hanna abt Rm180 and now TDS RM100. Abt the same price RM530 excluding the conductivity function. Prices is what i remember it to be , i could be a bit wrong. (smoking)

    :-) :-)
    rgd
    ts
  • bibikoibibikoi November 2010
    Posts: 315
    <blockquote rel="AndySitt">Bro I think the unit Aaron has is the same as the one Nikom sells.. I havent seen it yet but most are the same..

    I am planning to get one of this as well so I can permanently put the probe under the water..

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/385/tds.jpg</blockquote>


    Cool. Uncle andy, can get one for me too? Good to have a permanent monitor... Otherwise too lazy to keep testing and also the battery on the handheld units really runs out extremely fast... I presume this is with power supply?
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    np will get my collegue in shanghai to send me the device next week.. This device does come with power adapter.. but I wonder if constant dipping in the water is ok.. Those ph and salt meter sold locally is driving me nuts as I have to remove the batts after each use..
  • KaajKaaj November 2010
    Posts: 376
    Bro Andy,
    Any indication on the cost? maybe do the group buy for this item.
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    well should be around rm500.. doesn't make much difference if buy in bulk unless order in excess of 30 units.. main cost is fedex to Msia. can use seafreight but volume too small and frankly buying from china has it's risk.. will try first else I might get taro..
  • SIMKEE2020SIMKEE2020 November 2010
    Posts: 32
    Count me in. Thanks
    1. Andy Sitt
    2. Daniel Lee
    3. Tan Sri (Denning)
    4. James
    5. Elmen
    6. Kenny Wan
    7. Shukri
    8. Anuar
    9. KY Sim
  • ThiamHwaThiamHwa November 2010
    Posts: 260
    I have bought a unit from Bro. Aaron today. Thank you.
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    I tested the TDS level in both my pond today.. My incoming water from the pipe is 49 and my main pond in only 79... I feed my fish excessively.. But what I find funny is that my smaller pond tds is 249 and I dont feed it much.. The water is crystal clear on my small pond but its way higher than my main pond. I wonder if temperature, water circulation or bakki shower has any role to play.
  • M_ZAINM_ZAIN November 2010
    Posts: 209
    Bought 1 from Aaron as well.

    Tested my Tap Water is around 53 & Pond Water is about 260ppm.
    Regards,

    M. Zain
    +6019 333 3675
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    Bro Andy and Bro Zain, 249 and 260 are good for Shiro and sumi on Sanke and Showa but not so good for beni and growth rate generally.

    Bro Andy, 79 with source water of 49 is excellent like Japanese standard. What is your filtration like? Feeding regime and maintenance schedule? Overflow rate?
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    Yes Bro Andy pls share your secrets...
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    Bro Alan, I tested my water again and its indeed 75-77 in my main pond and the small pond dropped to 212 after I added 15% new water yesterday..

    The main difference in my ponds are:

    Small pond (high tds)
    High aeration
    Partially exposed to rain
    Low ratio of fish to water
    Low feeding
    No chiller
    Bakki shower
    Strong water movements

    Big pond (low tds)
    Low aeration (1 small HB 40)
    Low water movements
    2 fish per ton
    Heavy feeding
    Chilled to 25C
    Fed miracle animal solution & B12
    Fine first level taiwanese matt - wash daily
    Filter is just 15% of pond
    Visually more waste

    Now I am truly confused..

    -----

    Some info I found online:

    Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) are the total amount of mobile charged ions, including minerals, salts or metals dissolved in a given volume of water, expressed in units of mg per unit volume of water (mg/L), also referred to as parts per million (ppm). TDS is directly related to the purity and quality of water and water purification systems and affects everything that consumes, lives in, or uses water, whether organic or inorganic.

    What Are Total Dissolved Solids?
    1. "Dissolved solids" refer to any minerals, salts, metals, cations or anions dissolved in water. This includes anything present in water other than the pure water (H20) molecule and suspended solids. (Suspended solids are any particles/substances that are neither dissolved nor settled in the water, such as wood pulp.)
    2. In general, the total dissolved solids concentration is the sum of the cations (positively charged) and anions (negatively charged) ions in the water.
    3. Parts per Million (ppm) is the weight-to-weight ratio of any ion to water.
    4. TDS is based on the electrical conductivity (EC) of water. Pure H20 has virtually zero conductivity. Conductivity is usually about 100 times the total cations or anions expressed as equivalents. TDS is calculated by converting the EC by a factor of 0.5 to 1.0 times the EC, depending upon the levels. Typically, the higher the level of EC, the higher the conversion factor to determine the TDS.

    Where do Dissolved Solids come from?
    1. Some dissolved solids come from organic sources such as leaves, silt, plankton, and industrial waste and sewage. Other sources come from runoff from urban areas, road salts used on street during the winter, and fertilizers and pesticides used on lawns and farms.

    2. Dissolved solids also come from inorganic materials such as rocks and air that may contain calcium bicarbonate, nitrogen, iron phosphorous, sulfur, and other minerals. Many of these materials form salts, which are compounds that contain both a metal and a nonmetal. Salts usually dissolve in water forming ions. Ions are particles that have a positive or negative charge.

    3. Water may also pick up metals such as lead or copper as they travel through pipes used to distribute water to consumers.

    4. Note that the efficacy of water purifications systems in removing total dissolved solids will be reduced over time, so it is highly recommended to monitor the quality of a filter or membrane and replace them when required.

    Why Should You Measure the TDS level in your Water?

    The EPA Secondary Regulations advise a maximum contamination level(MCL) of 500mg/liter (500 parts per million (ppm)) for TDS. Numerous water supplies exceed this level. When TDS levels exceed 1000mg/L it is generally considered unfit for human consumption. A high level of TDS is an indicator of potential concerns, and warrants further investigation. Most often, high levels of TDS are caused by the presence of potassium, chlorides and sodium. These ions have little or no short-term effects, but toxic ions (lead arsenic, cadmium, nitrate and others) may also be dissolved in the water. Even the best water purification systems on the market require monitoring for TDS to ensure the filters and/or membranes are effectively removing unwanted particles and bacteria from your water.

    The following are reasons why it is helpful to constantly test for TDS:
    1. Taste/Health High TDS results in undesirable taste which could be salty, bitter, or metallic. It could also indicate the presence of toxic minerals. The EPA's rescommended maximum of TDS in water is 500mg/L (500ppm).
    2. Filter performance Test your water to make sure the reverse osmosis or other type of water filter or water purification system has a high rejection rate and know when to change your filter (or membrane) cartridges.
    3. Hardness High TDS indicates Hard water, which causes scale buildup in pipes and valves, inhibiting performance.
    4. Aquariums/Aquaculture A constant level of minerals is necessary for aquatic life. The water in an aquarium or tank should have the same levels of TDS and pH as the fish and reef's original habitat.
    5. Hydroponics TDS is the best measurement of the nutrient concentration in a hydroponic solution.
    6. Pools and Spas TDS levels must be monitored to prevent maintenance problems.
    7. Commercial/Industrial High TDS levels could impede the functions of certain applications.
    8. Colloidal Silver Water TDS levels must be controlled prior to making colloidal silver.


    How do you reduce or remove the TDS in your water?
    Common water filter and water purification systems:

    1. Carbon Filtration
    Charcoal, a form of carbon with a high surface area, adsorbs (or sticks to) many compounds, including some toxic compounds. Water is passed through activated charcoal to remove such contaminants.

    2. Reverse Osmosis (R.O.)
    Reverse osmosis works by forcing water under great pressure against a semi-permeable membrane that allows water molecules to pass through while excluding most contaminants. RO is the most thorough method of large-scale water purification available.

    3. Distillation
    Distillation involves boiling the water to produce water vapor. The water vapor then rises to a cooled surface where it can condense back into a liquid and be collected. Because the dissolved solids are not normally vaporized, they remain in the boiling solution.

    4. Deionization (DI)
    Water is passed between a positive electrode and a negative electrode. Ion selective membranes allow the positive ions to separate from the water toward the negative electrode and the negative ions toward the positive electrode. High purity de-ionized water results. The water is usually passed through a reverse osmosis unit first to remove nonionic organic contaminants.
  • cookcpucookcpu November 2010
    Posts: 462
    After reading all the information posted.

    I think we have to ask ourself whether we want our pond water to be good for human consumption or good for koi grow.

    I think there are other factors to consider before gunning for low TDS in your pond. IMHO.
  • Denn7Denn7 November 2010
    Posts: 331
    Wah Andy looks like you struck upon a perfect formula: main pond perfect to grow your jumbos and small pond perfect to contain your bonsai champs!
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Just bought myself a TDS meter.
    The TDS reading in my pond is 1450 ppm......... ):-( ):-( ):-(
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2010-11-06 12:46:57 pm
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    wah bro... you need to chnage your water and stop feeding man... unless you added lots of mineral to your ponds recently... did you pour in liquid gold?
  • SIMKEE2020SIMKEE2020 November 2010
    Posts: 32
    Daniel help me to get one. Thanks Brother Daniel
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Andy,
    Two days ago, I PPied my pond but didnt have a chance to wash the filter and change water.........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Yeah, I got mine through Daniel as well.........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    Well I am testing if Crystal Bio has any effect... Just removed all my crystal bio rocks.. Getting lazy to clean..
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    I checked my pond as as well.

    25-ton Pond
    -----------
    TDS = 248 (no x10 sign)
    DO = 6.5 to 7.0 depend on location

    2-ton Pond
    ----------
    TDS = 84
    DO = 7.1 everywhere

    My water source TDS is 44 only. I bombed my 25-ton pond with Refresh every week maybe this is recent for high TDS.



    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • M_ZAINM_ZAIN November 2010
    Posts: 209
    Checked my TDS today reading is 205, 3 days ago was 260

    Regards,

    M. Zain
    +6019 333 3675
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    Bro Andy, thanks for sharing the info. It is good for you. You have a pond with soft water and another with hard water. Can develop sumi in the small pond and beni in your big pond.

    Your readings are quite unusual. Based on your descriptions, your small pond would have much lower tds than your big pond. But the tds meter does not lie and there must be an explanation for it. Your big pond is perfect. Just need to lower the tds for your small pond. Wash filter, change water and monitor the tds readings.

    This is interesting. The source water in KL and Klang area is much lower than in Kuching. Ours is around 70 with carbon filter, otherwise it is around 77. We have readings from 80 to 1450. If we all register some fish growth figures in relation to our tds readings, we may be able to find some correlation. Sumi and beni quality may also differs depending on soft (low tds) and hard (high tds).

    Bro Zain, how did you bring down your tds?
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-11-06 08:07:26 pm
  • M_ZAINM_ZAIN November 2010
    Posts: 209
    Bro Sim,

    I 'flush' my 1st chambe 3times a day, it's Automated.

    Today, I checked Dr.Rahim's TDS,...his reading was only 105

    Regards,

    M. Zain
    +6019 333 3675
  • koikitkoikit November 2010
    Posts: 120
    managed to dig out my TDS meter, checked my water 87ppm.. tap water 80ppm, dont think is possible, may b meter need to b calibrated.. (rock)
    Post edited by Shukri at 2010-11-07 11:52:25 am
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    Hi Bro Zain, so more frequent flushing can also bring down the tds. Wow Dr. Rahim's is good.

    Hi Bro Kit, I think so, your meter calibration must be out.
  • M_ZAINM_ZAIN November 2010
    Posts: 209
    Bro Sim,

    Just Checked my TDS 10mins ago,....reading was 150onli..... ^^ ^^ ^^
    Regards,

    M. Zain
    +6019 333 3675
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    Wow, that is fast. Think you will go below 100 in 2 days.
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    <blockquote rel="M_ZAIN">Bro Sim,

    Just Checked my TDS 10mins ago,....reading was 150onli..... ^^ ^^ ^^
    </blockquote>

    You sure not 150 X 10.......... Like mine, it showed 145 but there is a blinking X10, so the reading is 1450 ppm. Because a 150 ppm is really a low reading especially when we feed kaw kaw.......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2010-11-07 01:33:12 pm
  • cookcpucookcpu November 2010
    Posts: 462
    <blockquote rel="Shukri"><blockquote rel="M_ZAIN">Bro Sim,

    Just Checked my TDS 10mins ago,....reading was 150onli..... ^^ ^^ ^^
    </blockquote>

    You sure not 150 X 10.......... Like mine, it showed 145 but there is a blinking X10, so the reading is 1450 ppm. Because a 150 ppm is really a low reading especially when we feed kaw kaw.......</blockquote>

    Now you mention about x10.....I just test the water and it show x10.

    I was wondering why my TDS reading is so low when I have salt and refresh powder in the pond water. :D
  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    Bros,

    Leave you guys for 3 days, all now doing TDS reading (rock). Thanks to Bro Alan for starting this (rock). Check your salinity before doing a TDS reading, it could help explain why TDS so high. Eg I salted by pond to 0.25% and the TDS reading when up to 271 x10 , (with blinking x10) = 2710ppm. Pond water before adding salt was 91 , source was 41. I understand that 0.25% is 2500ppm salt so 2710 reading make sense, 0.025% salinity already 250ppm. So high TDS is caused by salt NaCl content not waste or other diluted waste.

    :-) : -)

    rgd
    ts
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    <blockquote rel="cookcpu"><blockquote rel="Shukri"><blockquote rel="M_ZAIN">Bro Sim,

    Just Checked my TDS 10mins ago,....reading was 150onli..... ^^ ^^ ^^
    </blockquote>

    You sure not 150 X 10.......... Like mine, it showed 145 but there is a blinking X10, so the reading is 1450 ppm. Because a 150 ppm is really a low reading especially when we feed kaw kaw.......</blockquote>

    Now you mention about x10.....I just test the water and it show x10.

    I was wondering why my TDS reading is so low when I have salt and refresh powder in the pond water. :D</blockquote>
    <blockquote rel="cookcpu"><blockquote rel="Shukri"><blockquote rel="M_ZAIN">Bro Sim,

    Just Checked my TDS 10mins ago,....reading was 150onli..... ^^ ^^ ^^
    </blockquote>

    You sure not 150 X 10.......... Like mine, it showed 145 but there is a blinking X10, so the reading is 1450 ppm. Because a 150 ppm is really a low reading especially when we feed kaw kaw.......</blockquote>

    Now you mention about x10.....I just test the water and it show x10.

    I was wondering why my TDS reading is so low when I have salt and refresh powder in the pond water. :D</blockquote>

    Bro William, all of us learn new things everyday. That's why a Forum like this will be very helpful for the Koi Community.

    I have just drained my pond to about 90% of water off and cleaning my filter chamber thoroughly. A reading of 1450 ppm has given me a wake call.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2010-11-07 11:57:11 pm
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    Bros,

    I just read the article by Mike Snaden mentioned by Bro Alan here.

    http://www.yumekoi.com/images/stories/pdfs/DissolveThis.pdf

    I believe low TDS is very good for beni and growth, but not so good for sumi and the overall sheen and lustre of the skin. I will be checking the TDS of my pond in my next visit, I am very keen to know if our mud pond water is having low TDS like in Japan.
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    Bros,

    Also the article in Yume under Testing Time in Japan, where he takes readings of different farms like Takigawa's pond , Matsue , Ueno and their source water readings. Be enlightened (rock) .

    :-) :-)
    rgd
    ts
  • ThiamHwaThiamHwa November 2010
    Posts: 260
    For comparison, my area water source has a reading of 44ppm. My 13 ton pond with 18 koi and 0% salt content has a reading of 62ppm. Feeding 3-4 times daily without refresh powder added. I think the 30% of water changes daily is one of the key factor
    for the low ppm reading. Thank you.
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    Bro Thiam Hwa, no wonder your Dainichi GO Koi grew so well. It is amazing that u change 30% water daily. How do u remove the chlorine with so much water changed? You mind posting the pic of your Showa, how did the sumi go in such soft water?
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-11-08 08:32:25 am
  • koikitkoikit November 2010
    Posts: 120
    just re-check TDS, main water supply 48ppm, main pond 70ppm.... 22ppm diffrent.. 28ton wit 2o kois range 40cm to 80cm..

    will bring the meter for proper calibration tomorrow..
  • ThiamHwaThiamHwa November 2010
    Posts: 260
    Bro. Alan,
    The Dainichi GO Showa is doing well with ink-jet sumi quality. I have a few pieces of Shiro in the pond and their sumi quality was okay as well.
    I have been changing 30% of water daily over the past few years and so far have never encounter any chlorine problem. The incoming water passes through a pair of pre-filter before entering the first biological chamber. I had a chlorine water test done
    before by the specialist and the result was 0% cholrine.

    BTW, in the same KoiNations magazine which contained Mike Snaden's article on 'Testing Time in Japan '- Is soft water best for koi growth, there was another article entitled ' Investigating Growth' by Hefin 'Moses' Jones. In this article, it is interesting to note that low TDS has link to good koi health, excellent growth and superior Hi development.

    Hefin Jones carried out an investigation with a group of Kohaku from the same parents and from the same spawning over a 6 months period in 5 different ponds with TDS ranging from 30ppm, 70ppm, 100ppm, 190ppm and 230ppm. These ponds were of equal size and capacity with the same water pressure, water flow rate and same amount of aeration. All the pond's environments retained the same temperature, dissolved oxygen, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. All the koi were given the same mixed of food and the same amount of diet was offered each day.

    After 6 months, the Findings - The koi in the pond with the highest TDS had grown from 14-18cm to 52-55cm and weighted the lightest. Whereas those koi in the pond with the lowest TDS had grown from 14-17cm to 65-69cm and weighed the heaviest. The greatest percentage difference in length and weight was recorded with koi in water with the low TDS level.

    Hence, we have to ask ourselves ' What is the point of feeding so much food into a pond with high TDS. How large could a koi placed in ponds with high TDS grow?
    Thank you.
    Post edited by ThiamHwa at 2010-11-08 12:53:38 pm
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    Hi Bro Thiam Hwa, I read the article by Hefin as well and that was what convinced me there is something in tds that would make all the difference.

    I agree with you that there is no need to feed too much as it will increase the tds and slow down the growth rate. With the tds meter, we can feed the right amount so that tds differential can be maintained at below 50. You have provided a good option i.e. changing 30% water daily where you are able to keep your tds differential at around 22. Great job, bro..
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Thiamhwa and Bro Alan,
    Thanks for sharing more in depth knowledge on TDS. My pond is far from a desired TDS level. Somehow, I need to rethink and figure out on how to best combat my TDS problem. I know that I feed too much thank my filter can handle and nowadays do left water changes than before.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    Hi Bro Kit, your tds differentials are very healthy for your koi considering that u r only using BS for filtration.
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    Bro Shukri, how is your tds after the 90% water change and cleaning of the filter?
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-11-08 09:16:07 pm
  • cookcpucookcpu November 2010
    Posts: 462
    Bro Thiam Hwa,

    Base on your observation, I come to the conclusion that the more food we feed the koi means the more time one need to service the filter such as change water, cleaning the filter a few times a week or even daily etc....in order to maintain the low TDS level.
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    I used to keep and raise discus before. I changed the water about 90% daily and artificially control the pH. My discus fishes are a lot bigger than the others. Possibly this is in relation to what Thiam Hwa is saying, the growth in low TDS is a lot better than in higher TDS levels..... I guess more polluted water means more TDS.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2010-11-08 10:30:26 pm
  • koikitkoikit November 2010
    Posts: 120
    May b for those who wanted to slow down the growth rate of their show quality koi or bonsai koi can play wit the tds rather than let the koi on low food intake, just a thought..
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    Bro TH, Is there a % of optimum food level for low tds? Well cause the fish still need to eat decently for growth.

    My fish grows massively even for males and I always thought its the lack of water flow pushing the fish to move.. Now perhaps tds is another issue why the fish is growing so fast. I am testing on super feeding to increase my tds.. This morning still 80, (shukri) confirm no x10 ...
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    Based on Thiam Hwa experience, it throws the thought "low TDS (soft water) is not good for sumi" out of the window! It's classic! The more you read, the more you don't know. :-D
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    No wonder the Sumi of my kois are very decent i.e. high TDS level. The reading after doing massive water change is still high is 500 ppm. I can't take the measurement now as I am soaking the pond with Praziquantel. I saw about 3 to 4 of my fishes gulping at the water surface, so highly suspected Gill Flukes. I have the microscope but feel lazy to do a gill swap. Its high time for me to do the Prazi as the last time that I did it was almost 2 years ago when there was a Fluke outbreak in my pond.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • DanleeDanlee November 2010
    Posts: 694
    Bro Elmen,

    I ageed with you.. the more you read. the more you don't know. I have very high TDS (>250ppm), yet I think I have pretty good growth rate in my pond. On the other hand, I can now understand why I am struggling to improve or mantain the hi of my koi. I always thought that's because I seldom feed colour food in the past. Maybe high TDS is the main culprit.
  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro,

    I would not go so far as to say "low TDS is not good for sumi" myth out the window, based on one observation. I understand that soft water is not good for sumi development , but if your kois have already good sumi like the Atarashi sumi of Matsunosuke farm, soft water would do no harm. My source water at 39 is very soft. My favourite kois are shiros with little or no sumi , most do not develop sumi well . But my Atarashi showas are doing beautifully ( sorry self praise here , not used to seeing sumi so jet black (smoking) , maybe the clay usage helped but it does not increase TDS by much.

    Now , I am testing on a Shiromuji and 2 other Shiros ( all from GO Yamakoshi) to see if they develop sumi well. (smoking)

    :-) :-)
    rgd
    ts
  • ThiamHwaThiamHwa November 2010
    Posts: 260
    I uses resin filter cartidges for the incoming water pre-filter unit. This maybe one of the reason for the low TDS reading and soft water. It is not easy to find resin filter cartidges in Malaysia although it is easily available in Thailand and Singapore. Yotti
    in Thailand also uses resin filter for his koi pond.
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro TH, where to get the resin filter cartridges?
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    Wah Bro, you are going to start another craze thread on resin filter soon after the TDS mania. :-D
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Shukri,

    I think the high TDS is due to high residual chemicals in your pond rather than from feeding. A little bit of salt will cause the TDS to shoot up, 500ppm is 0.05% salt hardly register in some salinity meter. It is so hard to reduce the chemicals like salt once they are in pond.
    Can you pm me where you get the Prazi and price pls? I may have need for it (sweat)

    :-) :-)
    rgd
    ts
  • ThiamHwaThiamHwa November 2010
    Posts: 260
    Bro Shukri,

    Those resin cartridges from Thailand do not fit into our standard water filter housing unit. I bought mine from Singapore. Cost around RM75-00 per resin cartridge.
    Locally, no idea where to source for this product. Anyone else know ?
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    Bro Thiam Hwa, can show us how the resin cartridge look like? Thanks for sharing.
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    I am using resin pre-filter for my RO machine for drinking water. The brand is Waterco but the cost is double of what Thiam Hwa found.
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
    Post edited by etano at 2010-11-09 12:50:10 am
  • ThiamHwaThiamHwa November 2010
    Posts: 260
    Bro Alan,

    Here is a link: http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/resin-cartridge.html

    It is the first pic. shown. This cartidge will fit into one of those standard
    water housing pre-filter unit. Thank you.
  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    ThiamHwa,

    Would be good to know your TDS before passing thro the resin filter. Then we would know how effective the resin filter is.

    ts
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    <blockquote rel="lauts">Bro Shukri,

    I think the high TDS is due to high residual chemicals in your pond rather than from feeding. A little bit of salt will cause the TDS to shoot up, 500ppm is 0.05% salt hardly register in some salinity meter. It is so hard to reduce the chemicals like salt once they are in pond.
    Can you pm me where you get the Prazi and price pls? I may have need for it (sweat)

    :-) :-)
    rgd
    ts
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote rel="lauts">Bro Shukri,

    I think the high TDS is due to high residual chemicals in your pond rather than from feeding. A little bit of salt will cause the TDS to shoot up, 500ppm is 0.05% salt hardly register in some salinity meter. It is so hard to reduce the chemicals like salt once they are in pond.
    Can you pm me where you get the Prazi and price pls? I may have need for it (sweat)

    :-) :-)
    rgd
    ts
    </blockquote>
    Bro TS,
    Come to think of it, you are quite correct. Before I drained my pond, the salt level was at least 0.3%, then I did a PP Bombing (my kois are fine even at the 0.3% salt), and I didn't backwash my filter for two weeks due to work activities and stress.
    These kind of explain the 1450 ppm TDS reading
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro,

    Can pm me the Prazi , where to get and price ka. i may need to use la. Anyway good for QT la.

    0.3% is 3000ppm salt. At 50% water , salt is still 1500ppm or 0.15% bro. So TDS cannot pakai la.

    :-) :-)

    ts
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    TS, I changed 90% water......for sure in my case, the TDS meter cannot 'pakai la.'
    I tried calling you but no answer. Anyway, I have SMS you the information that you wanted.......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    Sorry Bro,
    Left my phone at home la. Thanks

    ts
  • rizalrizal November 2010
    Posts: 23
    Hi,

    <blockquote rel="Shukri">Bro Andy,
    Two days ago, I PPied my pond but didnt have a chance to wash the filter and change water.........</blockquote>

    <blockquote rel="Shukri">I have just drained my pond to about 90% of water off and cleaning my filter chamber thoroughly. A reading of 1450 ppm has given me a wake call.
    </blockquote>

    <blockquote rel="Shukri">No wonder the Sumi of my kois are very decent i.e. high TDS level. The reading after doing massive water change is still high is 500 ppm. I can't take the measurement now as I am soaking the pond with Praziquantel. I saw about 3 to 4 of my fishes gulping at the water surface, so highly suspected Gill Flukes. I have the microscope but feel lazy to do a gill swap. Its high time for me to do the Prazi as the last time that I did it was almost 2 years ago when there was a Fluke outbreak in my pond.</blockquote>

    PP bomb then 90% water change (presumably the salinity would have changed quite a bit too) over such a short time frame. Could it be possible the koi are just stressed?

    Best regards,
    Rizal
    Post edited by rizal at 2010-11-09 09:27:49 am

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