Recommendation for improving koi immune system ?
  • wongyengwongyeng April 2012
    Posts: 238
    I am very interested to find out from experienced bros / sisters what kind of supplements are good for improving kois immunity against diseases. Hope to learn from this thread. :)
  • pandaipandai April 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Wheatgerm... I was told...
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Kois grown in mud pond seems to be sturdier and have better immunity against disease compared to pond grown crystal clear water
  • monscinemonscine April 2012
    Posts: 223
    Vit C...bro Yotti of Thailand doing this on his kois if I'm not mistaken. It was when bro Thiam Hwa made a visit to his pond and had some conversation with him.

    Other hobbyist like bro David Soon make paste food (which he called it 'cookies') with many healthy ingredients on it. :-D

    Some hobbyists feed their kois with fresh vegetables...

    So, there are many ways to try improving the immunity system. :)
  • wongyengwongyeng April 2012
    Posts: 238
    I am only feeding kois Hikari High growth, will soon be mixing it up with wheatgerm. I put calcium clay into my pond once a month.

    I read about garlic, any bros care to share how to create such a paste and quantity so that I don't kill the kois with garlic ?!
  • lautslauts April 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Good to hear that not all depends fully on pellets . i have always supplemented with veges, multi vite esp Vit C for skin , calcium, Vit E ( already a lot in koi feed wheatgerm , and corn) for antioxidents. Clay previously for sumi development and occasional silk worm pupae for extra growth and girth. A good water management is essential with these supplements , feed what your water can take. i have a FF , you can see the foaming increases with certain types of feed. Keep the water and the kois will keep itself they say.

    ts
  • darrendarren April 2012
    Posts: 42
    Bro WongYeng

    our koi food is already packed with garlic.

    to answer your query, we are of the view that an inclusion of 3%-4% garlic shows the optimum result in promoting the overall digestibility of protein, carbs and fats while lowering the gut microbial and parasites within the intestine, muscles and water column of kois. this ratio can be incorporated if you are thinking of DIY-ing your own recipe. garlic choice can be either freshly chopped or dried, it will not affect the active substances in them.

    get some crushed garlic + honey and mix them with koi food of your choice? ;-)

    Darren
  • MikeMike April 2012
    Posts: 346
    I'm giving oranges and lettuce alternately.
  • ShukriShukri April 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    From my experience, kois that fall sick once in a while, after recovery will definitely be a more hardy koi i.e. have better immune system. It has always been different school of thoughts about maintaining prestine water condition i.e. near laboratory condition. This condition is always good for the kois, but please be wary about these kois being exposed to other conditions that are not similar to the original pond conditions for instant in a Koi Show environment etc, which these kois could be more prone to being sick.

    Supplement of Vitamins especially Vitamin C are good........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • MikeMike April 2012
    Posts: 346
    This what happen in an hour time.
    koianswers.com/discussion/download/6506/Before.jpg
    koianswers.com/discussion/download/6507/After.jpg
  • wongyengwongyeng April 2012
    Posts: 238
    Cute :)
  • ShukriShukri April 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    You sure you are not the one eating them....... :-)) :-D
    Yeah, they like to suck and nibble on the orange slices.......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • Hoop130Hoop130 April 2012
    Posts: 12
    Amazing information being posted. I definitely will try all your suggestions.
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Brothers and Sisters

    The notion that the koi immune system can be improved in an attempt to defend the koi against disease causing microorganisms is questionable IMO.

    1st I question.....is there a near-perfect immune response? I find the conception exiting in our mind as a result of mental understanding, awareness or activity improving the koi immunity is enticing but the ability to do so is actually elusive. The immune is a system and is not a single entity.

    Is there any evidences that confirm the intricacies and interconnectness of the immune response? Answer = No. hehehe.....Don't believe me....ask your doctor or vet or professor whether to-date do they fully understand how the immune system works and how to interpret measurements of the immune function.

    If you think critically......the concept of improving immunity make no sense scientifically. In order to improve the koi immunity system........in my understanding mean boosting the number of immune cells or others in the body. Doing this is "GOOD"? Blood doping can cause problem or not in reality?

    There are so many different kind of cells in the immune system that will respond to so many different microbes in so many ways. Do we know which cells in the immune system to improve to what number? I don't know the answer and I bet the scientist also don't know. Does anyone knows???? hehehehe.....

    What scientist know is that the body is continually generating immune cells....... Extra lymphocytes cells are removed by the body own process called "apoptosis".

    The point is no one knows how many cells or what kind of cells the immune system needs to function at the optimum level.

    When koi age.... the immune system also age. What if I said....we should give ginseng as many people believe it has the ability to stimulate function. hahaha..........

    I see the koi foods now promote that they have probiotics included simply because currently research indicate certain bacteria in the gut influence the development aspect of the immune system. Precisely how bacteria interact with the immune system components is not known yet. This all tempts us to think that more good bacteria would be better....this is what marketers would like you to believe as they tout their probiotic products. Science has not shown whether taking probiotic will replenish the good bacteria that get knocked out together with the bad bacteria when koi takes food containing garlic and antibiotic.

    hmm.....Reduce stress improved immunity system as in modern medicine speak....hehehe Is there evidence to support this? Answer = No. In the 1st place.......stress is difficult to define and measure but it is good to pakai or excuse if we cannot explain nowadays.

    hmmm......improved immune system.....the answer to me at present would be to protect the koi from environment assault and maintain good water quality.

    If you suspect the koi diet you are giving is not providing all the micro-nutrients needed by them.....then provide those defeciencies but not megadoses of a single vitamin as more is not necessary better.

    I wonder whether koi keepers feeding all sort of multivitamins and mineral supplements have any incident of bad experience with koi health problem.......

    hehehe.......

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Here is an article from a veterinary hospital in the States.

    VITAMINS FOR PETS: Should Pet Owners Supplement Pets’ Diets?
    In today’s stress-filled world, sometimes it’s all we can do to grab a coffee and a donut for breakfast, to say nothing of eating five servings of fruits and vegetables a day. So instead, we pop a multi-vitamin and go on our way.

    Does this also hold true for our pets?  Will their health benefit from daily vitamins and supplements?

    Not necessarily. While there are a myriad of vitamins available to conscientious owners looking for ways to help their pets, for many they may be unnecessary and even potentially harmful products.

    It is a far better investment to make sure you pet is on a good quality diet.  As with people, most vets feel when it comes to vitamins, if a healthy patient is eating a commercially balanced diet or a properly balanced home-made diet, they shouldn’t need supplements.  Although many people frequently feel that more is better, in this case that is not likely true.  It is potentially possible to over-supplement your pet.  

    That is not to say that some pets can’t use a little extra help for specific conditions.  There are numerous supplements that can greatly benefit an animal’s health — especially those that suffer from arthritis, as well as other specific disease conditions.  As with all medical treatments, the key is to choose the proper supplement when it is appropriate; and to be sure it comes from a reliable manufacturer.



    From above article, it mentions that if a pet eats a " a commercially balanced diet or a properly balance home made diet, they shouldnt need supplements. The thing is how do we know if the koi food that we give is a commercially balance diet for kois. Why do we need to feed expensive formulated koi food enriched with vitamins and supplements, priobotics, etc to our koi in our pond when many japanese breeders just feed more than 80 percent of their stock with a cheap commercial carp food and just rely on whatever natural food the koi may munch in a mudpond?
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-04-20 12:31:35 am
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    hehehe.........

    The commercially reputable koi food products state their ingredients and the contents of the food it contains. Further each of the commercial reputable koi food manufacturers' guarantee that the content as stated in their label is there. They further supported these claims by informing with this ingredients and whatever contents and based on their laboratory trails feeding.......the product gives a good representation of what they claim. They have been manufacturing the foods for years for various needs and there are R&D going into it and the consumers cannot fault with it.....so we have to accept it for time being unless it is discovered otherwise.

    Can you give us an example which koi food manufacturer koi food is not a balance diet for its intended use?

    Alternatively....If you want to know more about the product you are purchasing, check with the manufacturer to find out if the company.........


    1) Can supply information to support the claims for their products
    2) Can share information on the safety or efficacy of the ingredients in the product
    3) Has received any adverse event reports from consumers using their products

    They have given us an informed choices. It is a good start. If you see properly the vit C used is a stabilized type and yet we claim it is not stabilized. hehehe.... In all probability ......a false claim or an intended misrepresentation is unlikely can be established.

    You have to also asked yourself whether you have been able to spot false claims that is tantamount to a misrepresentation. False claims such as

    1) the product is a quick and effective "cure-all."
    2) the product can treat or cure diseases
    3) the product is "totally safe," "all natural," or has "definitely no side effects."
    4) words like "miraculous cure," "exclusive product," "secret ingredient," or "ancient remedy."
    5) text that uses overly impressive-sounding terms
    6) personal testimonials by consumers or doctors claiming amazing results.
    7) limited availability and advance payment required
    8) promises of no-risk "money-back guarantees."

    Look at our postings in this thread.....it have many of the item (1) to (8) hehehe...

    Are you sure.......many japanese breeders just feed more than 80 percent of their stock with a cheap commercial carp food and just rely on whatever natural food the koi may munch in a mudpond? Can you substantiate they do it to their prize worthy koi? I don't think so..... may be to those rejected koi that we all are so happy to rush to our dealers (upon announcement of arrival) to pick and try our luck to get a grand champion grade.

    My koi dealer said those koi coming in batches in large quantity are the rejected good that the breeders will lelong in bulk to make space. The good one they groom it to bigger size and sell for good money in return. May be we should look from this perspective.....the breeders themselves thru their years of experiences and observations find that the normal food given is good enough to growth the koi to its intended potential. If this is true then.....my hypothesis that we don't need all these magical supplements and magical portion must have an ounce of truth.

    This mud pond thing is another subject matter altogether.....do you know that koi fish from mud pond have a lot of bad autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria associated with them while they holiday in the mudpond. heehehe..... This is a subject matter may be we will have an opportunity to discuss in another thread. hehehehe..........

    The point is......do not self diagnose any health condition if you are not the sifu level yet.....if you are unsure about its beneficial and side effects consult more well experience koi keepers that can illustrate and demonstrate to you and not just from those "chui sui" at the coffee shops to make decision for optimal health......

    I have a doctor friend in a government hospital.....when she monitors & taking measurements of my son growth over the years.....she can predict that my son will not be taller than me but will be higher than my wife when he was 12 years old. I asked her...even if I give him all the best foods and supplements.....she said it is unlikely. hahaha......

    Cheers




  • wongyengwongyeng April 2012
    Posts: 238
    I think bro harryyew is bringing in the topic of genetics and I would agree that if a child is born from 2 short parents, chances of him becoming a yao ming would be rather slim... and this should be a very crucial component in selecting fishes especially expensive fishes like kois and arrowanas. Thank you bro harryyew for the analysis.

    But genetics aside, we cannot discount the effectiveness of supplements which I believe to be true. The point here is that supplements are unlikely to make our fish a super grade grand champion but there are highly likely to make them healthier and happier fishes, much the same for other animals.

    As for the topic on mud pond, I believe that since the "mud" pond is supposed to simulate a natural environment for the fish, throw any fish into a mud pond will likely to yield nice results - associated "hidden" diseases notwithstanding. But the fact is that fish from the natural environments tend to develop better immune system and become more hardy and healthy specimens. Therefore I tend to be in awe whenever fish farmers scoop out Super Red and big jumbo Kois and brilliantly shined Arrowanas from their mud ponds which are unlikely to have such color nor shine if you grow them out from an artificial concrete pond....

    On the topic of Japanese dealers exporting rejected kois... I feel this is a bottle half-empty and bottle half-full issue. I hear that the Japs have a tendency to keep the best harvest for themselves regardless of livestock or fruits and veges. Thus this is definitely a culture practised there. I would prefer to look at the exported kois as not the best, but neither the worst, it so happens that the Jap experts decided in selecting the best for themselves.

    Just my humble opinion.
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    The thing is a lot of koi food manufacturers DO believe in enhancing their koi food with vitamins , minerals and supplements for practical and marketing reasons. I think their research emanates from experiments done by many hobbyist in determining what constitute a good healthy diet and what constitute already a supplementary enhancer that can give our pets the winning look regardless of the shortened life span of the koi. It is a fact that despite the advancement of food, filter setup and quality of the koi in recent years, the lifespan of the koi does not seem to improve and some would argue that life span seem to be shortening.

    Lets take for example Vitamin C and Vitamin B complex and particularly Vitamin B 12. No koi food manufacturer has stated their dosage of this. For all we know, it could be just 0.0001 percent of the total ingredient of which 0.00003 percent will be loss during processing. A Hobbyist then experiments feeding orange or soaking food with a added supplements and then noticed changes like shiroji more whiter, koi more active, koi more hungry, poo much less, etc. How can we say that the supplements do not work at all? How can we say koi food manufacturers dosage of vitamins are enough when feeding supplement gives direct results without consideration of the long term effect of it?
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    We can say because of.......placebo effect lah.

    Until the philosophical concept of causality of cause and effect is determined factually it remains as a deception and propaganda brother.....

    In our local context here it literally means ....... "Sin Kah Ling Kum".

    Hehehe.....

    Cheers
  • darrendarren April 2012
    Posts: 42
    "Lets take for example Vitamin C and Vitamin B complex and particularly Vitamin B 12. No koi food manufacturer has stated their dosage of this"

    i beg to differ from the above statement, Bro HDCu. fyi

    most of the more reputable koi food manufacturers do state their guaranteed feed additives on their product label.

    it is required in the United State by virtue of the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) & the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO).

    in Europe, the European Union regulation on the additives for use in animal nutrition provided that a brand is responsible for labelling of their product. however, vitamin and mineral declaration of the final food does not need to be declared, but can be done so voluntarily, and MUST be valid for the duration of the best before date. Declared levels are also subject to tolerances, currently set by Feeding Stuff Regs 2005. Voluntarily, you can also declare other nutrients (eg Taurine, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium) - all of which will be subjected to testing and verification if declared.

    cheers

    Darren

  • wongyengwongyeng April 2012
    Posts: 238
    Brother harryyew, would you know a certain brother harrylee :)

    By your point of placebo effect, do u hv any articles suggesting that multi vitamins
    may not be as beneficial to humans/animals as it is assumed to be ?

    I m just curious..
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Darren

    Can You give example of how much quantity in mg of vitamin C, B12 was declared and what brand? I think we here would be interested to know.
  • MikeMike April 2012
    Posts: 346
    Guy,

    One thing to remember is to scoop out the orange peel as it tends to sink after sometime when all remain is just the skin it self and being suck in to the bottom sink.
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good Evening Brothers and Sisters

    To Bro wongyeng

    Hehehe….not sure we are referring to the same harrylee. Is he an avid koi keeper or someone well respected in the koi hobby community?

    Please allow me to continue with your subject matter….”recommendation for improving koi immunity system”.......

    Before I share my POV on the subject matter, I think we all need to understand the basic understanding of the koi immune responses.

    The Latin term “Immunis”, meaning “exempt” or “freedom”, gave rise to the English word immunity. It refers to all the mechanisms used by the body for protection from environmental agents that are foreign to the body. These agents may be microorganisms or their products, certain food items, chemicals, drugs and pollen grains. Immunity is of two types : (a) innate, and (b) acquired immunity.

    The koi has two types of immune responses…...namely the non specific defence mechanisms (also called innate immunity) and the specific defence mechanisms type (also called adaptive immunity) which involve defence mechanisms which do not require a specific recognition of the antigen and those that occurs in humoral and cell-mediated responses respectively. You can google to understand the immunology in further detail for the highlighted mechanisms.

    Koi 1st line of defense is using the non specific immunity (natural barriers….. the skin and the mucus) and is accepted as the significant part of the overall immune response. When we think about the immune response of the koi they are actually in contrast to mammals and human immune defense mechanisms responses. We have a higher order and more sophisticated defence mechanisms responses……….

    If a koi has healthy non specific immune mechanisms..... the barriers will be able to stop a pathogen to enter the body.

    There may be cases where some stronger pathogens may enter and disease will develop. When this stage is encountered by the koi and if the specific immune mechanisms (cells are involved leading to the production of antibodies)….. are healthy…the koi will survive and it will protects itself against re-infection by the same pathogen……as the koi can develop a specific immunological memory too. How good and how long this memory will last I don't know.....hehehehe.... However…researches has indicated their immune memory is not well established comparing with mammals and human.


    Ok…we now have some basic understanding of the koi immune defence mechanisms responses……we now look at the FACTORS that can influence the immune responses…..

    There are basically 5 main factors many believed are influencing the immune responses. Let us assume for the time being the following 5 factors are given equal weightage (i.e. each 20%).

    1) Environment factors
    2) Stressors
    3) Nutrients
    4) Micro-nutrients & minerals
    5) Immuno-modulators other than micronutrients

    And let us subdivide it further…..
    The numbering used here mirrored the numbering used directly above

    1) Temperature, amount of sunlight the koi is exposed to, rain, TDS
    2) Managing the koi…handling, transport, stocking density, water quality and pollutants from internal self generated and external elements
    3) Protein, lipids
    4) Antioxidant, vitamins, carotenoids, heavy metal
    5) Glucans, ajuvants (These I group as non nutritional value by substance that can modulate the immune response)


    Let’s examine each of these factors and give a % as to how well we can manage and control it to be at optimum….

    1) For item 1…..my temperature is at optimum & stable, the amount of sunlight is plenty minus the heat, minimum rainwater flow into the pond and low TDS. Therefore… I evaluate it to be around 90% out of the 20% tagged.

    2) For Item 2…..handling = zero, transport = zero, stocking just ngam, water quality = within the general beliefs best range to be in, pollutants from internal= flush off automatically on a daily basis and diluted continuously while maintaining the given water parameters stability within acceptable range, external elements like dry leaves, bird shits, frogs minimize to zero. ORP reading is around 90. Therefore…. I evaluate it to be around 90% out of the 20% again.

    3) For Item 3…….I feed the koi with varieties of well established and reputable manufactured koi foods rotating it around on a regularly basis. Just like how we humans will eat our foods. The feed rate is based on the generally well accepted feed rates used by other hobbyist and watching how hungry they are to determine whether additional feed should be given. Ok…hehehe….here I am a bit “Si Kah Ling Kam” but I believe they are about right as the kois have very good growth and the colours development are beyond my expectations and by comparisons with koi development of others from the same source. I believe a well balance diet is given. Therefore…. I evaluate it to be around 90% out of the 20% again.

    4) For item 4…..I depend on the commercial koi foods pre-mixed micro-nutrients & minerals. I do not introduced elevated doses of antioxidant vitamins and carotenoids. It has been established in researches that fish can store a certain amount of excess vitamins in their body organs. Possible heavy metals known to me in the water supply are generally filtered off. For this item….I would give my self an evaluation of 80% out of the 20%

    5) For item 5 ….. I avoid using antimicrobial agents but I believe some type of koi foods do contain these agents. Most koi diseases are mainly bacterial aetiology. So my alternative control strategy measures are good husbandry, adequate feed composition, water treatment and biological control via probiotics.

    To elaborate further…..

    I believe in good husbandry practice rather than reliance solely on therapy….. thus prompting me to consider the optimum conditions for parameters such as feed rates, water dissolved oxygen, stocking densities and even controlled temperature.

    While the feed composition is indeed a complex issue and a better understanding of the mechanisms through which nutrition influences the immune responses are still necessary. Immuno-modulators that enhance the function of phagocytic cells cannot be ignored totally. I don’t practice high feed rates as I believe it has more detrimental effects. In between feeds……I will let the koi eat the algal in the pond as algal derived polysaccharides are good immuno-modulator and offer immuno-stimulation.

    I employed UV light to disinfect and sterilize for disease control. One popular belief that is gaining wider acceptance is the use of beneficial bacteria (probiotics) to displace pathogens by competitive processes and for improving water quality. While their exact mechanism of action is unclear…..many scientists believe they will promote competitive exclusion of pathogenic bacteria, production of inhibitory substances, provision of essential nutrients for the koi, provision of digestive enzymes and direct uptake or decomposition of water-borne organic matter thus……reduce the risk of colonization by pathogenic bacteria.

    For this item….I would give my self an evaluation of 50% of the 20% as there are more uncertainties yet to be verified.

    Overall…. my evaluation record 80% rating from the above estimation.

    Hehehe….May I know yours?


    Cheers
  • wongyengwongyeng May 2012
    Posts: 238
    Bro harryyew,

    Thank you for the very detailed analysis (although i need to go do some googling on some of the terms you used, but good reading nonetheless) :P

    May I know what is the size of your pond and how many adult kois you keep in it ? Also, what is your water change regime and the type of filtration system which you have deployed to support your pond ? Lastly, can share what is your feeding regime ?

    Thank you once again.... yes, i believe if harrylee is a koi hobbyist, his pond would be huge and all the kois would probably be champion kois ! :P
  • idrisidris May 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Ya la bro harryyew..if possible also post your pond picture also. I have been reading many of your post and curious to see experience hobbyist pond and koi for reference.. Please share if you don't mind...tx bro...
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Brothers wongyeng & Idris

    to bro wongyeng

    size of pond + filter chambers about 13m3. 9 koi ranges from 60cm to 72cm. About 2% daily water change all automated. Can vary to need. Filtratin system= 1st chamber tube setllers (wash every 2 weeks, just did a slight modification, I think now can be 3 to 4 week once, still testing. 2nd & 3rd chambers J mats ( wash every5 to 6 months once. This one test and confirm ok. Pump chamber no cleaning for time being, maybe once a year, not yet reach a year. Heheheh..., sand filter & then UV sterlization before final discharge to pond in the 1st leg of the water return route. On the same route a Tee off to a chiller and surface return to pond. Another separate independant 2nd return water pipe route to an overflow flower pot, spout pipes throw and lava rocks trickerling at grade return to pond to create some drama. Feeding regime 2 times per day in general, morning and late evening. 200 grams to 300 grams.

    To bro Idris

    I am a newbie.....cannot be considered experienced koi keeper yet. I just happen to have some of those related knowledges posted and resouces to consult. I am learning as I write & read here. Ok will find an oportunity to post pics to share with you all. I have brought all the equipment to net out the koi but I think I need to get the koi dealer to supervise & train me proper 1st. Not confident to do on my own yet. Hehehhe....

    Cheers
  • idrisidris May 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    bro harryyew..i like your style...always doing right the first time.. :-D
  • wongyengwongyeng May 2012
    Posts: 238
    Bro Harryyew, nice system... I can oredi visualise it ! Especially your filtration flows and the fact that you put only 9 pcs in a big 13mx3m (presume at least 30tonne?) pond goes to show that you have discipline... I oredi hv 22 pcs in my 4x2x1.4 :P !

    Can you help me understand how your 2% daily water change works ? I am interested to incorporate something like that as well.
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro Idris and Bro wongyeng

    Thank you for the compliments.

    To bro wongyeng

    No.....my pond plus fitration chambers volume total to about 13m3 not 30m3. Hehehe...when I build my pond I have little knowledge on koi appreciation and cannot relate well the koi size & how they will swim in relation to a pond surface area when all the koi eventually reach the size of 70cm+. After introducing a 72cm koi with the rest in 60cm+ size....I realize the sensory and scalar aesthetics may have been compromised.it is liken to going to a cinema watching a movie and sitting in the front row. The image size is imposing... Hahaha.....

    On the water change....you want to understand how the automated enginnering components are designed to work or you want to understand the rationale why I do approximately 2% water change daily only?

    Cheers

  • wongyengwongyeng May 2012
    Posts: 238
    Bro harryyew, on water change, yes, I am keen to understand how you automate the process, off hand, I can think of using a power head to pump water out over a specified time interval but I m not sure what I could use for the fresh water inlet.
  • lautslauts May 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Harry,

    In view of you giving yourself 90% mark for water quality earlier , here are some suggestion to push it higher maybe 100% full marks 8-)

    a) Wash your first chamber more often like weekly and not push it to 3-4 wks. It is best to eliminate waste as soon as possible , it is all abt minimal pollution of the water column. A RDF unit would be ideal. UV sterilizer can only do so much as not all you water passes thru it.
    b) Wash the 2nd and 3rd chambers every two weeks and monthly resp. 5-6 month washing is way too long for the amt you are feeding bro .
    c) No mention abt bio chambers and coral/oyster buffers? Stable pH is key to healthy pond
    d) The sand filter is nothing but water polisher, you will still find a lot of fine settlements and waste on all the chambers before it reaches the sand filter. Clear water is not always good water bro.
    e) Koi keeping is not only abt the science but also an art. So far no scientist have claimed to be more knowlegeable in koi keeping than the koi farmers of Japan. Something to consider.

    ts






  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    To bro wongyeng

    This is how I have automated the water change and daily cleaning.

    I have a 6" bottom drain from the 1st chamber (settlement chamber) with its outlet directly discharged straight to the dry chamber. The dry chamber come with a secondary recess sump to facilitate the butterfly valve connection to its flange. On the same outlet pipe before the compact flange....I have a the bottom drain Tee of to a standpipe too in the dry chamber like what many people have in case the butterfly vale fail in the future after certain operating hours.

    The valve is an industry heavy duty grade. So far so good. It can be changed very easily by dismantling the bolts and nuts on the flanges to remove and slot a new unit back in place. The final butterfly valve I used is a stainless steel type and come with a custom stainless steel rod housed in a stainless steel shaft that extended to the top of the dry chamber beyond the adjacent filter chamber water line but below the dry chamber timber planking covers to conceal it from sight. I have this actuator above the water line... just in case water overflow from the filter chamber into the dry chamber due to whatever reason there may be. The electrical motorized actuator c/w a heater and can be manually over right if required by turning a small flywheel attach to it.

    This electrical actuator is then connected via electrical wiring to two timers which will control the day and time and how long I want the butterfly valve to open and close. I installed an additional feature via a relay with respect to the timer circuit which will allow me to by pass the time to flush at will.

    You can see below a link.... an original compact electrical operated butterfly valve attach to its actuator that I have put up for comment. I did not install this unit as I later found a Korean made which has a far more superior specification.

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/685/constructing-a-koi-pond-please-comment/p2

    So....on a daily basis it will flush off significant of the koi shit that have settled at the bottom of the chamber. The hydraulic pull when the valve open is high. You can basically automate the amount of water change you required from here.

    In your consideration to have a pump to suck off the shit at the bottom of the chamber....it can be achieved too but it would be good if you incorporate the submersible residue pump type instead of the sewage and waste water pumps type we use for recirculating the pond water.

    My 1st chamber design is very different from many of the hobbyist design. I actually have achieved removing 95% of settleable solids, easily 50% of the total suspended solids to be carried over to the 2nd chamber. You practically cannot detect visually debris from the surface flow of the water from chamber to chamber.

    However.....I know I will not be able to remove the total suspended solids more and decided to install a sand filter to remove the individual particles (suspended solids) that are generally invisible to the naked eyes to polish the water. In an open water system there is bound to have some turbidity normally caused by growth of phytoplanton and those super fine koi shit. Our city drinking water has a turbidity not exceeding 5NTU. In the sand filtration design I aim for a 10NTU reading which I believe I have achieve. I will test it later in the lab.

    So...I allow one of my water return line back to the pond to be Tee off again to a sand filter. The sand filter is automated again for back washing with a actuator install c/w a built in programmable timer to allow the day, time and the duration to set for back washing. During back washing the pond return water is discharged off. I have a water flowmeter install to monitor the flow into UV unit before discharge the return back to the pond to allow different degree of sterilization I want to. The duration you set for backwashing will determine how much flow will discharge and you can determine with certainty via the flow meter readout. This is where my 2nd water change I can regulate. As for the water top up to maintain equilibrium....it is via the ball valve at the 1st chamber.

    I have the city water incoming connected to a carbon filter and then feed directly to the 1st chamber. The outlet is then connected with a simple ball float valve that we have one installed in our house water storage tank. If you want fast incoming volume water rate then install a bigger incoming feed line and use a bigger ball float valve....so the water top up will be faster.

    I also Tee off the outlet pipe of the carbon filter and have a valve control to regulate water entering the sand filter inlet pipe. I will use the city water after passing through the carbon filter to wash the sand filter once in while as the city water in my area has at least 1.5bars to 2bars range. In fact before I started the construction.....I get syabas to change the ferro connecting valve at the main pipe and get them to change their incoming piping to my house water meter. Wah!!! they demonstrate the pressure to me and I request they buka all the way for me in which they oblige. hehehe....

    So....I will buka a little bit of this water valve from the Tee off and allow a small amount of water to directly discharge in the pond continuously to dilute the pond water. This is my 3rd water change. With this the extra water build up in the pond is discharged off via an overflow pipe to the drain.

    Please let me know if you need further clarification and wish you success in your new consideration.

    Cheers


  • HDCuHDCu May 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Can I know why you insisted a 6 inch bottom drain pipe instead of four inches? can a six inch bottom drain pipe collect some detrius over time if pump to pond pressure is not strong enough?
  • wongyengwongyeng May 2012
    Posts: 238
    Bro Harryyew,

    Thank you for the detailed description of your system.

    For my purpose, I am only going to do a straightforward water-change system. Would need your help suggesting what components I require if I wish to automate water flow into the pond.

    My water flow out of the pond will be timer controlled by a water pump from the pond to sprinklers to water the plants nearby over a period of 5-10mins depending on how much water I wish to draw out.

    I have attached a very simple outline of the tap to pond layout. Will appreciate you putting in the neccessary components in the diagram.

    Thank you!
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    hehehe.......Brother lauts

    I don't think I can set the value of my current water quality to be 100% because I don't think there is a 100% perfect water quality.......even our very own city water supply quality cannot be perfected to 100%. It can only be within acceptable limit fit for human consumption. Ok brother.....with your cleaning and washing routine.....would you tagged a 100% to your evaluation under the stressor category I have defined? hehehe...

    No kidding brother.....there is nothing much in my experiment investigations to see how dirty the filter media and its bottom chambers are. Not raising by pushing from below brother........ The only thing that I can find to wash is the single J mat sieve on top of the 1st chamber that rest on top of the tube settlers. With the recent modification I have done ........ The J mat sieve now have even less fine trapped there. What ever settled down in the chamber.....will be significantly flushed off on a daily basis. In reality.... I wash daily but I automated it instead of doing it manually. I am not that young any more......hehehe.

    Next round, I will pull my filter media modules out and before washing I will take some pics to show you the amount of dirt it actually accumulates and the bottom debris of the chambers over that span of time.

    My current UV cylindrical chamber is used as a sterilization unit more. Simplifying.... it will sterilize the pond volume every 6 hours based on the return water passing through it. I must have some means to address the Immuno-modulators other than micro-nutrients. I can vaccines the koi with all know diseases that can be vaccinated to boost this category but I don't know who can do it for me. Can you? hehehe....

    I can also use a mathematical expression to make my own evaluation look super good. For example....Immuno-modulators other than micro-nutrients should be given only a weightage of only 5% as this is artificial manipulation and the remove 15% be introduced to the second item as it is considered a more important influence to many people. In this case.....my determine value will then be 86%. To me.... it is a marginal improvement only. Nevertheless....the simple mathematics expressions provide us with a reasonable good guide and increase our level of confidence to assess and analyse our very own koi keeping system and habits.

    hehehe.....if with low turbidity water plus good water parameters, can you agree it is a bonus to the water quality?

    I will agree koi keeping is an Art in many ways and when it comes to Art...there is no rules right. hehehe...May I know the specific Art you are referring to.....?

    There are no rules to say that one has to be Van Gogh to question art; a politician to question govt policies or a medical doctor to question the drugs being prescribed to a patient.

    IMHO.....if that art entails such laborious up keeping requirements......I would conclude one has been enslaved himself from the very 1st primary objective of koi keeping and the design of a good recirculating water eco-system . May be I put it this way.....if an artist is so busy cleaning his colour pallets and washing his brushes..... does he has the good times to paint his art and produce pictures......and not forgetting to appreciate his very own master piece? hehehehe........

    I question the art of manipulating the koi patterns.....To me.... The skin structure and its pattern is a function of time and the koi's life. "Manipulating" part of the skin patterns in random manner and cosmetically is equal to castrating the personality of the koi portrayed........ but in the name of Art......it is acceptable to many.....hehehehe....

    There is one ring to rule them all. This ring to rule them all is our very own awareness!!!
    Do you agree?

    Cheers

  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro lauts

    Can you help me to understand as to why whenever I go and clean my 1st chamber only or the remaining chambers.......my pond water Redox value dropped to the negative value?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good day Bro HDCu

    The primarily decision is for hydraulic purposes. All pipe sizes will collect some detrius over time if pump to pond pressure is not strong enough unless the water flow self cleansing velocity of 0.8m/s is allowed for.

    A 6" pipe will take longer than a 4" to choke up. In reality...unless it is carelessly manage......the pipe will not choked up. Regular flushing by high hydraulic drawdown will generate a high enough water flow velocity in the region of 2 to 4m/s depending on the depth of the pond. Therefore the correct pipe size and number of it are important to ensure the hydraulic properties of the piping system and the state of water flow are not degraded for all its purpose functional use.

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu May 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro harryyew,

    If the flow rate is 4000gph, isnt the pressure stronger with a 4 inch bottom drain pipe than a six inch bottom drain pipe with the same flow rate? If this is so then would a 4 inch bottom drain pipe collect much less detrius over time than a six inch one? I am building my pond right now and I am still thinking what pipe size to use for my bottom drains. Any sifus here care to give their opinion?

    With regards to Redox value dropping, are you saying the redox value drops during the pumps are stopped to give way for cleaning of 1st chamber or redox value drops after cleaning as compared to prior cleaning?
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    yes....the velocity head is greater in a 4" pipe than in a 6" pipe. Greater velocity head will translate to bigger drawdown in your 1st chamber as there are more frictional losses along the rote of piping works.

    You read from this thread to understand the implications associated with it.
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/908/lots-of-questions-on-pond-design./p9

    please let me know if you require some assistances. I think I have roughly work out your expected drawdown in the O2 thread. That is the value you can expect to have.

    On the Redox....
    the redox value drops after cleaning as compared to prior cleaning? From around 100 to negative 35!!!

    Cheers

  • HDCuHDCu May 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I understand that there will be frictional loss and my fear that the 5800 gph pump will drain down the horizontal flow filter chamber as such I have added another surface skimmer with 4 inch pipe to the settlement chamber as such I now have 2 x 4" pipe going to the filter. Hopefully that will further reduce water level from going down in the filter chamber.

    What do you think?

    With regards to the Redox dropping my suspect is that during the time you cleaned the filter, the water circulation in your pond is nil as compared to when you got a 100 redox level. Upon restarting your filters again, it takes a while to reoxygenate the pond as the air in the filters were just turned on.

    Since my pond is still under construction, I have transferred 10 big nisai in a 3 ton QT pond. So far the water has remained clear with very good water parameters although I flush out each of the filter once every other day and with just 10 percent water change per day. I used only one fourth japanese matt, 3 brushes but around 40 liters of siporax for one filter box while the other filterbox contained just sponge, bioballs and 2 liters of siporax. Pond turnover is like 2x with a 100lpm aeration to the pond and filters. Temperature has remained at 25 to 26. I did noticed that appetite was not was as good as before when they were in the small pond where there was a current.

    This week I placed another 7000lph pump underwater without it connected to any filters. While turnover rate remained at 2x, current was much stronger to the pond that the air bubbles were going up at a 45 degree angle already. What I noticed is that the kois love to swim against the current, they became more lively, their appetitie increased but most importantly water quality and clarity became better even though I was able to feed more. I have not taken any DO or ORP readings but I suspect both have improved. Because of this experiment, I am now thinking of incorporating several low wattage wavemakers to be attached in the four sides of the new pond. The wavemakers would provide a higher circulation rate to the pond without the problems of pump backpressure and expensive electrical requirement.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-05-10 08:02:57 pm
  • lautslauts May 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Harry,

    My post is in response to your 90% rating on your water quality. And where i think can further improve. IMHO 90% :-D a very high a rating without consideration of pond pH, ammonium wastes, coliforms level , water chemistry etc.
    Gin clear water of course is a bonus for water quality but in this case could it be the main consideration for water quality? >:-)

    To share , due to my job i had access to Zoo Negara Aquarium. They have state of the art filtration , sand filters the size of kancil car, ozone sterilization, UVs , many more gadgets i don't know of . All run by a few microbiologists , experts . Have you seen the fishes on display ? Tell me if the fishes look healthy to you? I think i have seen happier looking catfishes, lampams , kalui etc elsewhere. IMHO all science no art at play here. Don't think green water can be good for kois ?

    On the 6" pipe , settlement in the BD is not a bad thing. Things don't settle if water is too fast , worse still waste gets broken up making filtration of small particles more complicated. Since you have 20- 30 ft of piping just connecting chambers why not use as settlement chamber too? Just flushing to sump will clear everything.
    Tube settler means brush filters right? Not effective if flow is too fast , but with 6" piping ok.

    Redox , sorry can;t help . You should be able to lead since i think not many on this forum understands the concept including myself.

    ts



  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    With a total return flowrate of 5800gph from all your pumps with 2 nos of 4" bottom drains......you will have a drawdown of 40mm in the longer BD pipe and 35mm in the shorter BD pipe in the 1st chambers. The unequal values is ok. But....40mm is quite big to start with.

    If you introduce skimmer pipes for additional pickup flows from the surface to the settlement chambers. You will reduce the drawdown to around 20mm at each of the 1st chambers.

    20mm is acceptable but then.....you will be pulling too much surface water return and when you feed with your floating pellets......nearly all your food pellets will be drawn to your skimmers and discharged directly into your 1st chamber. The amount of fine waste pick up from the water surface is quite alarming. This is where the surface debris and fine will float to the next chambers. These lots of fines.....no change to get any settlement. I have experimenting collecting this debris and fine by using lingerie bags to collect it on a weekly basis. Gosh...the smell and the junk not pleasing to look at even. It is like baby shit. hehehehe.....Ok...you have your micro sieve to respond and it will choked up faster brother. However..... you do daily cleaning so it will not be the same.

    In my computation....you need 3 nos of 6" dia pipe as bottom drain and that will translate to a drawdown of around 5mm only for a total water return of 5800gph (22m3/hr). Very the good bro. Your flow velocity in the BD pipe will be around 0.15m/s. This velocity is not the self cleansing velocity. No problem... you can flush to generate the self cleansing velocity.

    With 0.15m/s.....it is a Laminar flow and when it reach your 1st chambers....you stand a good chance to allow your micro-sieve to respond better without the dynamic impact it will be subjected to if it is a higher velocity it has to handle .

    Your filtration chamber is symmetrically designed. You have an odd number of piping. One option is for you to have the longest BD drain to be Tee off to create two pipes return to each of the chambers with the remaining 2 BD each to each of the chambers...thus you have equal number (i.e. 2 nos to each 1st chamber).

    You will have small drawdown to be concerned with for flow from pond to 1st chamber.

    Then plan for 2nos of 50mm diameter pipe c/w a 75mm pickup mouth to skim the surface water off debris and the like. The skimmer pipe preferable should be routed to the bottom of the 1st chamber.

    I see you biggest design challenge will be the fluctuation drawdown you will be experiencing with the sieving method you are considering. I don't think it will works to your expectation.

    I am of the view the wavemakers is a placebo effect. hehehe.....Brother abandon the idea of having the wavemaker. However....I will give more thoughts on the matter and you feedback to you when I have consolidated my thought on it.

    With regards to the Redox reading.....during all my cleaning process....all my pumps and aeration are working to it full potential......no interruption at all. It will takes about 5 days before it reads back to an ORP value of around 90. I can understand if there is disturbance to the J mat chambers but 1st chamber..... :-?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro wongyeng

    I get my guy to draw a simple sketch. Don't know whether you can understand what I am trying to convey. You can adjust the water level height to fill up to by turning the 90 degree elbow. If you need further clarification.....please don't hesitate to ask brother.

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6745/pic%20a.jpg

    If you like to have trickling continuous water dripping in the pond, then have a Tee off and install a normal water tap for fine adjustment to your liking.

    One thing that will need further consideration is....how to prevent the koi from injuring themselves at the valve. Ideally the ball valve should be in the 1st chamber as this is where we start to recondition our water.

    Cheers
    Attachments
    pic a.jpg 120K
  • wongyengwongyeng May 2012
    Posts: 238
    Bro Harryyew,

    Brilliant... didn't tink of using the toilet flushing concept ! :D

    I was thinking of using timer + solenoid valve for this purpose but not sure where to find the piping components that can work with the solenoid (or for that matter, dunno whether such components exists in the first place!)...

    For my purpose, I probably will do away with the carbon filter portion and send tap water straight into the pond, therefore will only require the "detail-01" portion.

    Are they customised ?
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro wongyeng

    How are you going to control the chlorine when you automate?

    There are timer and + solenoid valve (electrical or pneumatic type) for this purpose. It is not cost effective to consider for just this use.

    Can buy from any hardware shop. You need 2 nos right angle elbow and 2 nipple connector and the ball valve only.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro lauts

    hehehehe......I know you are responding to my claim of 90% in that Stressors category but I have a little problem when you mentioned "Art" which I don't know how to measure. hahaha....Of course the gin clear water is not the main consideration. It is only the water aesthetic bro but you will agree it is pleasing to look at the koi. I think my koi can also see me more clearly from afar. hahaha.........

    I am eager to learn and know what are the water parameters that you consider that is essential to be measured in order I can I can have the level of confidence to state my claim. Please list it down and I will test it and table for your review.

    How often do you test for your coliforms level in your pond. You carried it out using the "SimPlate" biocontrol method to obtain your representative value? What is the coliforms value we should not exceed? What is the upper limit for coliforms count?

    Tell me how your koi swim in your pond? My koi swim in a free and easy manner and will swim paragliding when I sit and watch them. Occasionally a male will chase a female around and some will swim with an acceleration from below and do a windmill turn and then paragliding and nibble on the wall or floor. Is that normal?

    Zoo Negara Aquarium......That one I suspect they lack public funding to upkeep and do the maintenance...or their microbiologist and experts have other priority to address....like how to get workers, gain access to clean and operate the equipment and maybe there are many patent defects in the design thus......employing daily manual labour to do the cleaning.

    I use to go there to tembak tembak wildlife photography but have not being to their aquarium section as that time I was not into fish yet. hehehe.....Ok will find a time to visit.

    Cheers bro....





  • HDCuHDCu May 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I have considered since the beginning the problem of floating koi food being sucked by the surface skimmer as such I will be placing the two skimmers 6 inches below surface level. After flushing per filter bay, the water will go down at the level of the skimmer thereby removing surface dirt if any. During that time I will be timing the autofeeder not to feed anything.

    My intention of putting several wavemakers( 4 per sides placed in a vertical position at 0.4m intervals) is to generate a real rotating current for the kois to exercise and to signicantly circulate the water removing any deadspot. Each wavemaker consume just 12 watts of power but generate 8000liters/hr of water movement. It will be placed in a interval timer to save on electricity as well as give the kois a time to rest. Every month I plan to retilt the wavemakers to change the direction of the rotation. Of course this is just my initial plan and I am looking for computer simulation program to verify water movement. The wavemakers are quite durable as Ive been using it for 2 years already without problems. The key I think is to prevent any significant string algae to grow in the pond as well as placing the wavemakers in a removable rack for easy servicing and replacement.

    I do believe kois need significant excercise to remain healthy in the long term. In a small pond setup(even at my new pond size, I do believe it is too small for bigger kois to get enough exercise), a real artificial current can help the kois to do some "threadmill action and burn off some excess fat stored in their organs. I rather have strong muscular kois with appetitie than slow and weak imposing fat kois that don't move much all day.hehe.

    Can I know the TDS of your pond water before and after filter cleanup?
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-05-11 07:18:54 am
  • khongkhong May 2012
    Posts: 144
    Bro HDCu,

    May I request you to share what brand of the wave maker you are using?

    Thanks,
  • wongyengwongyeng May 2012
    Posts: 238
    Bro harryyew,

    Because the qty of WC is low, i am not worried about chlorine in the sense. but you are right, i may need to have a carbon filter in between to be sure.
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good day Brothers and Sisters

    To Bro wongyeng
    10" diameter cylindrical x 44" height activate carbon should be big enough to last for many years.

    To Bro HDCu

    interesting consideration....but....

    The answers here mirrored your post paragraphing

    1) The skimmers are then designed not as a skimmer per se...
    It is not efficient.

    2) Have you consider " Free Will" has been denied?

    Please read Neli's thread with regards to the water circulation motion in the body of water and let's know your views.

    3) Paragraph 4...hmmmm TDS level is below 90.

    I will be cleaning the 1st chamber soon and this time I take reading again ...before & after at the pond and the 1st chamber and will post for review. Thanks.

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu May 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro harryyew,

    To tell you the truth i have survived for years without a surface skimmers. Hehe. The design is just a part time surface skimmer only design to clean surface one to two hours a day. Besides, there is no more plants , leaves that will float except dust, uneaten koi food and some floating poo if any. an hour of skimming should do the trick. If there is foam, ill just increase water change rate to remove DOC.

    Lets just say as a hobbyist i like playing the puppet master to my koi pets. i would like to manipulate their girth, colors, movements, shine, pattern thru the use of several available techniques from manipulating water flow at certain time, changing the food rate and water chemistry, and even to the extent of performing plastic surgery to enhance their beauty. free will? what is that?

    My pond has been designed to get a circular flow instead of a stream flow. In my opinion both are ok and provide good circulation. The intention of the wavemakers is to provide a stronger horizontal current without lowering filter turnover rate and to be able to control the direction of the flow either clockwise, counterclockwise, current towards middle of pond or chaotic current.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-05-11 06:22:57 pm
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Ok.....we are now going a bit into the coastal and ocean engineering aspect......

    May I know you are installing the piston-type or flap-type wavemaker? Resun make?

    You are using 16 nos of those that are normally use in the aquarium type? 4 per side install vertically in a column bar or something.

    Are you sure the powerhead (paddle or piston type) can overcome the 1.8m hydro-static water head at say from mid depth onward?

    Are you not concern with the click click click sound as it changes from powerhead to powerhead that you will stressed your koi out and downgrade the Stressors category( let say for time being you accept my categorization on factors influencing the immune responses).

    How on earth will you be able to sync all the powerheads to generate the same standing wave elevation and the waves obediently travel in a circulation motion with respect to your rectangular tanking?

    Is this going to be trials and errors exercises until you get it right or you actually have achieved what you have conceptualized here to the configurations and depth you are talking about?

    hehehe......

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    to conitnue.....

    To me the powerheads of wavemakers rated 12W capacity are actually puny devices. They are designed more for the aquarium needs where there is a need to generate some current for the corals to be healthy.

    In an aquarium environment the water usually moves sluggishly and the idea of introducing powerhead to create a nice underwater current is great. It generates an environment for the fish to frolic and play.......

    Nishikigoi were bred from carps originated in rivers somewhere in Russia and somewhere in Central Asia. It is not in the Japan padi field. So....we naturally would like to think they will like a riverine condition...... I have not been to this part of the world but I don't think the riverine conditions there are choppy with strong waves. I may be wrong......

    nevertheless......

    Your current system is designed with a Niagara fall feature and plenty of water return inlets back into the pond. It is already full of currents. When the air stones and tubes are introduced...you even have more vertical circular current flows that go with it. It is liken to a young river environment.....like the Yangtze river. It is not a stagnant shallow pond. hehehe..........

    To me your 16 tons pond design to accommodate not more than 9 koi jumbo koi is super ngam but the water surface area of the pond may have been compromised due to your desire to mimic the ERIC system which will take up a larger footprint. I will also respect how you have set your heart for this.

    The question is this.....will you wear them down unnecessary in your desire to provide additional currents and subject them to random long duration which may be detrimental to them . Can the koi tell you when they want to rest and sleep and when they want to frolic and play?

    Some people believe that with super water current at the perimeter....it will drives more of the waste to the center BD and in fact some may even at the pre-conceptualized stage believe is so strong that to their dismay.

    Many hobbyist desire to have current flows whether circular or horizontal or plug flow is to provide a healthy clean environment. In your case...it is different. You want to create a body building machine in the pond to create your koi like "Universal soldiers". This part I try hard to comprehend.

    Having said this......do we really understand koi specific lifestyles and its behaviours. They originally comes from an area with plenty of space to roam and forage......then we tell them to live in gin clear water and also to feed from the top and now we tell them to live like the salmon/trout fish. Then some smart alex comes along and make a big "ho har" on the dead spot in a small to medium size pond where all the bad bacteria will live and reproduce in astronomical proportion or there is where the lower O2 region will be and if the koi swim to there their health will be compromise.

    Then another smart alex come up with a great idea and write a scientific paper using empirical formulas, a shallow small basin and using computer software...simulating it to tell us how the particles will obediently move in a circular motion and go into the BD inlet without protest.

    Now....they even goes into the linear wave theory to tell us that they now know how the ocean waves move, how floating and bottom structure will behave with respect to it and how the beach profiles are form and how to prevent sediment transportation from one area to another. How breakwater structure to be designed. How earthquake excitation to the structures and seafloor can be estimated by using the wavemaker theory.

    Interesting isn't.....

    As I journey into this hobby and trying to study and understand the koi behavious.......I have to say they are very happy when they can rest on the pond floor and in shallow water and in shady areas. Luckily... I have many of these features introduced by chances. They swim and they frolic and play in a free and easy manner and the paragliding actions they display is something I enjoy watching very much. I equate like I have given them some quality of life back. Ok brothers and sisters.....don't laughs.... hahaha.....that is how I have felt....may be "Sing kah Ling Kum" again here.

    Cheers


  • HDCuHDCu May 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Wavemakers are actually not noisy devices and in fact silent underwater and in fact much more silent than a venturi. If you place an airstone at the bottom of wavemaker it cavitates the air bubbles but it is a little noisy but not as noisy as a bakki or trickle system. The pressure is actually gentle that some koi enjoy taking turns in front of these wavemakers. I did this in my small pond for more than a year before it was demolished and believe me if there were signs of stress to any of the kois i would have removed it. The reason I placed it in the first place was since i did not have a bottom drain in that small pond, i needed an underwater current to stop any detrius accumulating at the bottom floor. However, I did noticed that the tosai at that time were more hungrier after a while and they would be able to finish their meal even at two to three hours interval. During our recent koi show here I displayed four of the my kois( just the 150 dollar ones) of which two won major prize and many hobbyist were asking me all sorts of questions like what have i been feeding them, how massive is my pond, how expensive did i get these koi and how was i able to grow them fast enough without color issues. It is hard for them to comprehend how it was possible to grow big muscular body fast in such a limited space and at just 2.5 feet of depth.

    I am not saying the wave maker is the key but just part of my experimental solution to combat the limitation of my small pond during that time. The reason of changing to a much bigger pond which is more suitable for bigger fish is to make it more appealing to the eye plus i got tired of the old pond plus the fact that I am replacing some with very expensive higher class tosais. However because of my experience in the old pond i am bringing in what ive learned before. I know it is unconventional or what you say an aquarium setup.

    But lets take this aquarium setup subject matter on hand. The fact is the modern koi pond is more and more looking like a giant aquarium setup. These are the facts:
    1. Many hobbyist prefer crystal clear water unlike green water. The former is an aquarium setup.
    2. The use of media now like BH, crystal bio, siporax in ponds. The aquarium setup employed similar filters before being popular in pond system
    3. Protein skimmers. Very popular in marine aquarium but now being used by some koi hobbyist
    4. trickle filters. Even years before bakki shower in pond, this is already an aquarium setup design
    5. Regular filter cleaning and water change. In high end aquarium marine and freshwater aquarium, this is being done.
    6. Airstones. airstones were not yet popular back then in ponds but were already being used in aquariums
    7. High turnover rate. Aquarium have this but more and more hobbyist are prefering higher turnover rates than the acceptable norm of 1x per one to two hours.
    8. seive. aquariums have been using fine wool filters since the beginning. seive is just the same.
    9. chillers, heaters. aquariums have been using it before it got popular in pond.
    10. low energy wave makers. designed for aquarium. Pond? lets see...

    You are correct in saying my new pond( now increased to 20 ton with a 3 x 4 x 1.8 meter footprint but with same filter footprint) is still lacking enough footprint for much bigger kois. This is something I have to live for maybe for the next six to ten years before I built another bigger pond at the back of my house(subject to some persuasion to home mister. hehe). By providing a stronger vertical current though I hope to Trick the kois that the space is bigger as they exert more effort from point A to point B. My present filter setup with all the downward bakki flow and microbubblers will not give the same underwater current flow.


    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-05-12 07:50:33 am
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good day Bro HDCu


    Hehehe……

    So…the wavemakers do make noises. Whether it is tolerable…. is a matter of perception of endurance. Ok. I will accept this argument. Now…..what about the extra 200W of heat you are introducing from the wavemakers into the water? Will this lots of heat increases the stressor category? No? or…..the atmospheric conditions will realign itself to adjust to your needs? Hehehe….

    Don’t get me wrong…..I can also visualize how the koi will frolic and play nears a wavemaker……but brother….16 numbers you are talking about!!! I question the unnecessary physiology level of stress response we have to subject the koi to. While it is called a “wavemaker” may seem rather complicated and sophisticated …..in reality they are puny devices that does nothing but create standing waves in a body of water. You state that….. the wavemakers will create circular motion…..that is beyond the linear wave theory that I know and understand. It is likening to the theory of relativity that light can bend when one approaches to the speed of light. Here…..I question the quantum mechanic to it in a gravitational pull environment…..

    In your earlier post…..you state further…..that these wavemakers will aid to eliminate the growth of algal or the like and prevent detritus from accumulating at the bottom of the pond. You must understand that…..It is matters of time….algal will eventually grow to a certain extend……it depending on the presence of the primary elements, namely nitrate and phosphorous in the pond water……else we don’t have to deal with eutrophication happening in the lakes and ponds.

    Can you eliminate all the nitrates and phosphorus we introduced and generated from our feed? Algal growing on the walls and floor are good signs that life is flourishing in the system. The koi foods we feed the koi contain phosphorous. Whether it has been processed with phytase enzyme or not…..I am not sure. Inorganic phosphorus as an element is phytate in nature which is virtually an indigestible form to the koi. Koi don’t have stomach and they cannot produce phytase enzyme like us being able to. When we see eutrophication in the pond……we must 1st question the feed we have introduced. Those who feed more with wheat and corn contents (these foods contain high phytic acid) will generate pond water richer in phosphorous elements. Then the microbial in the water will convert it to phosphates which in layman term….a fertilizer containing phosphorous compounds…..

    If one knows how to manipulate the phytic acid in the food in respond to the koi needs…..it can be used to his/her advantages to correct certain undesirable ailments during the lifespan of the koi.

    IMHO……the most logical and practical way to minimize detritus from piling up on the floor of the pond is to have sufficient BD outlets. So…how many is appropriate for a given footprint? Hehehe…..

    When koi are small…..their growth rates are always accelerated as long as you feed them well in a reasonable good water quality environment. The conclusion you have drawn with regards to the accelerated growth in small koi cannot and should not be equated to koi that has reached certain size and maturity. Hmmm…..how do you know it is muscle growth and not fat that have deposited in the body?

    I have to disagree with some of your claims and analogies…..on the koi pond following the aquarium footsteps….. It should be the other ways round or something in that order.

    It is more logical to conclude that…… someone discovered earlier on how to dig a hole….divert some water into it and/or filled it up with buckets of water to house the fish than discovering that they can use silica to make glass and use originally angle-iron and putty to joint it together to make a box and fill it up with water. History date creating glass sometime in 3500BCE. You tell me when you think someone knows how to dig a hole. Hehehe……

    The numbers here mirrors the numbering used in your post on the aquarium setup subject matter.

    1) I think many hobbyists prefer crystal clear water because river water in general is gin clear. Many rivers are turbid now…….mainly due to rapid land development and clearing of sites without much consideration to minimize soil erosion.

    2) In the very beginning….there is only lakes and rivers…..there are rocks and gravels, ok pebbles too….they provide a good place for microbes to live in. All these BH, crystal balls and siporax and whatnot try to mimic the inherent natural materials properties through the advent of science and technologies. In the aquarium environment…..we have no choice but to be more efficient. However…..the magic minerals that are found in the rocks, gravel and stones in nature cannot be reproduced in this BH, crystal bio and siporax. All these minerals have to be artificial introduced into the system to give an environment.

    3) In the beginning the pond don’t need a protein skimmer……then a smartalex comes along and built a concrete pond and does not understand the reactive and inherent properties of concrete that causes all the foaming and he/she then refers to the aquarium and use the protein skimmer to overcome the problem. They cannot explained how it is formed and they gave a name to it…..NPS…..now everyone have to live with it and be accustomed to it if they ever built a new pond from afresh. I don’t have foaming or NPS problem. It must be a nightmare having to manage this syndrome…..

    4) Niagara fall was part of the earth formation millions of years ago. Trickling filters were made in the industrial revolution period. The aquarium guy conveniently copies it and self proclaim of his ingenuity to have made one.

    5) The aquarium guy has no choice but to regularly clean and carry out water change….simply his/her system is not forgiving in the 1st place. Do you know any aquarium guy uses de-nitrification process system in their filtration system?

    6) This one I not too sure. I thought the aquarium started off by introducing air via a tube only…. No ar?

    7) These high turnover rates of multiple folds were promoted by a smartalex who has not taken the economic consideration into the equation and cannot fully understand what is considered an adequate design. Aquarium has high turnover rates may be by default brother. It is highly likely the pumps manufacturers find it is not economical and competitive to provide small pump capacity for those fish bowl aquariums.

    8) The sieving filtering system has gained wider acceptance because of technology, space constraint and most probably pond builders cum designer forget to harness the gravitational pull that Newton had discovered. They need to address customers complains right?.... and it is natural they will try to sieve to address sediment transfer. Next you want to say…..Aquarium guys have to use vacuum to clean his aquarium bed prompting the koi pond keeper to buy vacuum cleaner to clean his pond? hehehe….No way brother.

    9) Not too sure this claim is correct but it is irrelevant for matters under discussions.

    10) This low energy wavemakers are designed to mimic the ocean current brother….so that the corals can flourish and be healthy….not because they need a treadmill. Tell me brother…..your water surface in the QT tank with your current wavemaker installed….. choppy or not?

    See brother….you used the word “trick” in your last paragraph…..=== Placebo effect lah.

    I wish you the best in all your undertaking in your journey to build this new pond and do tell us the make of the powerhead wavemaker you are currently using and contemplating to add more to your new pond.

    There are ways to increase koi appetite without the needs to introduce such complicated system. That will be discussed when an opportunity arise…..

    I attach herewith some computer simulated waves pics that are generated with a flat type wavemaker……

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6762/Wave%201.JPG


    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6763/wave%202.JPG


    Cheers
  • lautslauts May 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Harry,

    On the drop in ORP , do you drain the chamber empty and wash everything in the chamber or just remove the filter mats wash and replace? All the waste will fall back into the water column if you just remove without fully draining the chamber. This unsettling of all the gathered waste could be cause of low ORP.
    ORP is difficult to interpret , i prefer TDS to measure "pollution level" between my weekly filter wash. MyTDS now ranges from 78 to 88 at my feeding of abt 0.5% body weight ( abt same % as your feed rate) .

    ts
  • harryyewharryyew May 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro lauts

    Today....I did the measurements again.

    Before cleaning process.... TDS value below 100. ORP value 130 in the pond at all depth taken. Very the happy. hehehe...

    Check 1st chamber value. The same. More happy and smiling all the way to make myself a cup of coffee. Modification is working to expectation.

    Open 1st chamber only. Look at the only piece of J-mat that I have used to lay flat across the 1st chamber used as a horizontal sieve on top of the tube settlers. Top face of J-mat looks clean and free of koi shits or biofilm punching through. Very the happy. Decided to slowly remove the J-mat in the 1st chamber to check the bottom conditions. There is some dirt filtered by it. Not many dirt..... can tahan easily another 3 weeks comparing with the before modification condition.

    Very little dirt drop back. Only those super fines are dislodged. Water jet clean the J mat for 15 minutes far away from the 1st chamber and after that got nothing to clean and decided to take my pond vacuum to clean the tube settlers. The tube settlers also not very dirty. Very the happy. After vacuuming the tube settlers I took measurement of the pond water TDS and ORP again. The TDS value remain the same but the ORP value drop 60 to read 70.

    Banana....why like that one and start to back tracks what can be the cause as it should read otherwise. It cannot be the ORP probes as it was new and just calibrated. That YSI ORP probes cost is RM1250.00 excluding the calibration Zobell's solution which is another RM200 that is good for 6 months of use. Not the pasar malam type.

    Can it be due to....

    1) water dilution problem? Amount of water remove from the vacuuming estimated 1m3.

    2) The filtration chamber not enough feeds of koi shit for the microbial to process? All the time water re circulation and air supply not interrupted.

    In theory....ORP or Redox Potential measures an aqueous system's capacity to either release or accept electrons from chemical reactions. When a system tends to accept electrons, it is an oxidizing system. When it tends to release electrons, it is a reducing system.

    Based on the above understanding.....when I cuci cuci.....the system is releasing electrons.

    The last time I cleaned the whole of 1st chamber (take out all the tube settlers and vacuum the internal surface area of the 1st chamber off dirts....ORP value read to the negative value.

    Am I correct to conclude that....when I cleaned.....I have actually change the concentration of the existing species in the 1st chamber to release electrons. What species have I changed???? hmm....

    Cheers

  • HDCuHDCu May 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,


    In my 3ton temporary qt setup, the current I generated just goes round and round the circular qt pond . It is not choppy but you can notice there is a current because the air bubbles does not rise up straight up. In the middle, there is less current but there are airstones placed. The kois would sometimes form in a school stationary position against the current and once in awhile some of them would go in the middle where there is weak current. Some would exert more effort than the others to try to get first in line. Once I drop some koi food, this school of fish seem to disperse in a few second and take a break to eat. There is absolutely no koi shit that settle on the bottom even without bottom drain. Water is crystal clear. Algae growth on wall has in fact diminished for some reason. I have been using the resun 15000 wavemaker with controls. It is rated at 24 watts and generates 15000 liter per hour at the maximum. Yesterday, I replaced it with a resun pump 120 watts submersible pump that generates 7500 lph but a much higher pressure and notice the circular current was more stronger that before as can be seen when i drop some floating koi food.

    In view of this observation, I have revised my pond built again and do away with the wavemakers. Instead I will be spitting my two 5800gph pump output with one outlet distributing to the trickle shower setup and one position 50cm below pond at a slight downward angle with one of this outlet at opposite site to create a downward clockwise or counterclockwise current thereby pushing the water towards the middle where the bottom drain are located. I am also planning on connecting a small 100 watt needle wheel pump with its output connected to the submerged outlet pipe I mentioned. I am thinking the needle wheel pump will generate very fine microbubbles of which it will be push and dispersed by the stronger output pump. Based on what Ive read since microbubbles are much smaller, the bubble have more surface area of oxygenthat contacts with water plus it takes longer for the microbubbles to go up the water( a few minutes instead of a few seconds) I have four problems that I need to solve. 1. Will it work? 2. Where to position the small needle wheel pump and where do I draw the water(from the pond itself or from the filters)3. How to baffle the noise of the needle wheel pump? 4. Will there be some back pressure to shorten the life of the weaker needle wheel pump? I would love to ask your analytical analysis on this. Basically I would like to attempt to make a strong venturi that gives out microbubbles instead that will circulate in the pond.

    Next week I will try and buy a needle wheel pump and do some experiments on my QT tank again. I will connect the needle wheel output to the output of the 120 watt pump that generate 7500ltr hour and see what happens.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-05-13 01:21:30 am
  • wongyengwongyeng May 2012
    Posts: 238
    Guys, speaking of current and circulation, due to my pond being an L-shape, wonder what is best to create an optimal circulation. At the moment, there is current from one end to the other but I m not sure how much circulation occurs at the L-shaped end and how can I improve it without fitting too many gadgets ?

    Any suggestions ?
  • HDCuHDCu May 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Wongyeng,

    How many bottom drains did you put and what is the direction of your outlet flow?
  • wongyengwongyeng May 2012
    Posts: 238
    Bro HDCu,

    I hv 2 bottom drains across a 4m pond.
    I hv 2 outlets, 1 at each end of the pond. As the pond is L-shaped, one outlet pushes water from end to end (length) while the other pushes water from end to end (breadth)

    Have attached a simple ppt outline for you.
  • lautslauts May 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Harry,

    ORP of 130 is on the lower end of an average pond based on my koi literature, 100-200mV is average . Ideal is 350mV , lower than 100mV is poor pond. Lucky for me i don't have an ORP meter to drive me nuts :-)) :-)).
    Try dump completely the water at 1st chamber during wash , save some of the 2% water change instead. The water has low ORP anyways.

    How much is the ORP of normal chlorinated tap water ? Another thing how does antichlorine affect your pond ORP? I know when not fully dispersed my tap water conditioner drives the TDS really high, above 120 .

    Good luck on your quest.

    ts
  • wongyengwongyeng May 2012
    Posts: 238
    Bro harryyew, can u advise me on passive product which can hold 10" diameter x 44" activate carbon ? Is it a DIY container ?

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In Apply for Membership