• yy988yy988 March 2012
    Posts: 62
    hi sifu's i need some comment and inputs here? Is it true that progress of the koi fish growth depends on gender of the fish, and also the breed "tetegoi" which is the Farm. The progress of growth is actually slow down at almost 5yrs and above.
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  • NeliNeli March 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    Since the topic is Koi growth...I hope U dont mind me also asking...why some fish just dont grow?
    I have a gin rin soragoi, that is just not growing...the rest of the fish that were the same size are now 3-4 times its size...Is it only genetics...what is the problem.
    It has never been sick, the ones that had problems are the ones that have grown.Food is the same...
  • adleeadlee March 2012
    Posts: 115
    sis neli i think thats why we have normal tosai and jumbo tosai for sale :) some are shy eaters while others will eat non-stop. same like human the ones who eat a lot will become fat and the one that like to be slim control their diet :)

    i have 4 butterfly koi which i got it from the same batch and same size. but few month all 4 in defferent size. 1 still small, 2 almost same size but the last one is twice the size of all the rest :)
  • ashfaqashfaq March 2012
    Posts: 799
    Thanks,
    Ashfaq from India-Chennai
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    When speaking of growth rate of ordinary tosai and jumbo tosai, do some jumbo tosai growth rate slows down on one point for the some ordinary tosai to eventually catch up considering all variables are the same. What's are the experiences of others?

    Also speaking of gin rin variety versus ordinary variety, is it safe to safe in general except for a few exceptions that the latter grows better?
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-09 02:15:25 am
  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    It is all in the genes. If the blueprint says max size and length is 50cm, now matter how you do, the fish will remain and stay at 50cm no matter what............

    In my experience, the doitsu and Gin Rin varieties seldom grow big........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-03-09 06:31:55 am
  • yy988yy988 March 2012
    Posts: 62
    shukri
    so it is a bonus that fish that grow 50cm above for the first 3-4 yrs?
  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    From my experience, many fishes can make it to 60 cm by two years. Slow down after that....some will reach 70 cm. 70 cm onwards are very slow. But then again Chagois and Karashigois are the exception. Real fast growers that can easily surpass 80 cm by 3 years...
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • KaajKaaj March 2012
    Posts: 376
    I may get shot for writting this ;) I will try to share my understanding of the top 3 contributing factors to growth:

    1. Genetics.
    The Japanese will repeatedly tell you that koi from "good bloodlines" are the best. What does that mean? Well simply put, it is that the best of the best have been repeatedly cross bred for their traits to be passed on to the next generation. It does not mean that you buy a koi which does not come from a prized fish that it will not grow, or even turn out to be a wonderful koi. It simply means that the chance of getting a fish that will grow big, and have the traits of the parents are higher from those with "good bloodlines". If you consider that not so long ago (20 years maybe??) Jumbo koi were 75cm. Today, many koi reach this magical number. Koi are getting larger as a whole vis a vis breeding techniques. SO this is ultimately the most important contributing factor.
    2. Water conditions and volume
    Maintaining optimum water perimeters, and the constant removal of waste is essential to giving your koi the chance to "maximize their potential" (ie genetic capability). Also, pond volume to stocking levels will allow the koi more space, and promote growth.
    3. Food and absorption
    Feeding heavy amounts of food does not guarantee that your koi will grow fast and large. It is the absorption rate which counts the most. For small koi, it is imperative that they have a high amount of protein for growth. Unlike older koi, young koi have no problems absorbing large amounts of protein. Some koi seem to eat little, but grow fast. Others eat a lot, but do not grow much. Many hobbyists and breeders feed their koi reasonable amounts of food, throughout the day (auto feeders and such). The volume of food may be the same as a person who feeds twice a day, but the absorption rate is better when the food is spread out over time. This is so because the kois body does not need to overwork to consume and convert all the nutrients in one rush.

    Jumbo Tossai are not abnormal koi, nor do they have the super ability to grow into jumbo koi at record pace ;) They are termed so because they have a growth spurt in their early months.

    Growth spurts are also very interesting. Most koi have consistent growth till they reach 50 odd cm. Thereafter, a lot of the growth and future is dependant on the factors above of which no 2 and 3 are our responsibility.


  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Kaaj, ditto here..........look at human beings.....why some people are 6 footers? Bloodline my friend. And the chubby ones! Definitely over eating i.e. diet......And of course conducive environment........disease free......... :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • NeliNeli March 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    Lots of good info here! Lots of clever boys! he he he!
    I have a problem with trying to put too much weight on a koi....It is bad for its health....just like in people... balance must be reached, between bulk and fatness.. obesity has the same negative effects in koi as in people..
    But U boys remind me of Zambian men! He he he!
    U like your girls fat....with lots to hold onto...I mean koi girls...
  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Hahahaha Neli,
    Honestly, there is no perfect science with regards to growing kois. Kois are kois, how much you feed them, they will just finish the food as they do not have a stomach. I am one of those guilty ones that love to over feed my kois, but the problems always lie with the capacity of the filter chambers. The chambers usually can't take the extra load hence a very poor water quality indeed. To make it worst, nowadays being busy and all, I am not maintaining the water quality to the level that it should be.
    You are correct Neli, I like my female kois to be extra fat and chubby and big (however, I am not there yet!). But my preference of woman to be tall and slender with a hand phone number of 362436........... :-)) :-)) :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • adleeadlee March 2012
    Posts: 115
    abg shukri take 4 numbers la then! hahahahaha
  • wongyengwongyeng May 2012
    Posts: 238
    Same here... :(
  • SRathaSRatha May 2012
    Posts: 189
    Interesting how we compare kois to human beings, actually I find this abit strange to compare myself to koi and genetics but here is a try.
    My father is roughly 165cm to 168cm in height, my eldest brother is 167cm which is comparable to my father, however I am 184cm +\-. The interesting bit here is that my brother was raised in France whilst I was raised in the United States early stages/growing stages of my life. Genetics I believe do play an important role, and possibly the food is another thing. So technically my genetic blueprint depicts that I am suppose to only be 167cm+\-. I guess with modern science and technology genetics do play an important role but I guess possibly the food and environment is also another factor not to be overlooked.
    If our genetic blueprints are the determining factor in the size we can physically achieve, I believe that kois are only getting smaller but with good environment, we as human beings as well as kois can definitely surpass our genetic blueprints. This is probably the reason why back then kois of 75cm were considered Jumbo instead of 80cm of today.
  • ShukriShukri May 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Hi there SRatha,
    A very good write up and sharing there. If we combine theory of genetics and Mathematics, and if you look at your dad only (assuming your mum's height is standard) i.e. let's assumes that he is 165cm, let's look at his potential children could be anywhere in the range of 132cm to 198cm. So your brother and you are in fact within the range........The environment and diet also can influence the height and size of a person.....
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • SRathaSRatha May 2012
    Posts: 189
    You are right Brother Shukri,
    With selective pairings/breeding, the breeders can expect to improve on their out going parent sets. However this does not guarantee all fishes will grow the same, which explains why some siblings are smaller than others.
  • yy988yy988 May 2012
    Posts: 62
    Great explanation.. =P~
  • KaajKaaj May 2012
    Posts: 376
    Brother Ratha in my humble opinion.
    Genetics is quite interesting. There are traits and characteristics that are with us from our ancestors that never manifest in us, but may in our children, grandchildren, etc. Similarly, we are not the "potential" sum of what our parents appear to be, but the sum of the genetic blueprint that they themselves carry....which....goes back thousands??? of years.

    Crossbreeding and selective breeding of carp has produced both koi and goldfish. The former is edging closer in size to its origins while clearly has become a sub-species with color variation & the latter has maintained its demunitive size for 1000s of years.

    Genetics does not explain why siblings are different. It merely offers explanations for things that come to pass...because of inherrent potential that has materialised.

    Cheers
  • wongyengwongyeng May 2012
    Posts: 238
    So are you saying that your child may be tall because their grandparents or great grand parents are tall even though you are short ?
  • KaajKaaj May 2012
    Posts: 376
    My daughter was born with grey eyes. My wife and i both have dark colored eyes
    my father has grey eyes. My grandfather dark eyes. My great grandfather green eyes. My great great grandfather light brown eyes. My great great great grandfather dark eyes. And yes..this is the truth.

    My dad is 5ft 6inch. I am 5ft 8inch. My 3 brothers are all taller than me :)

    Ps...here is a bit of trivia. One man is responsible for the genes of about 100 million of the worls population today. They all carry his genes...he was a great lover but even greater conqueror. Can you guess who he was? :)
    Post edited by Kaaj at 2012-05-10 09:07:26 pm
  • ShukriShukri May 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    GENZHIS KHAN, the Monggul from Mongolia........His real name is Temujin.....

    Do I know about genes or what!!! :-)) :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-05-10 11:07:48 pm
  • KaajKaaj May 2012
    Posts: 376
    Spot on abang shukri.

    He remarked of his own grandson kublai khan who ruled china - "this cannot be my blood. His hair is not red". ;)
  • megatronmegatron May 2012
    Posts: 832
    Is Adam! :-))
    Don't ask me why!!!
  • ShukriShukri May 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Adam is definitely the original source for the physical human genes. In fact the DNA blueprint shows that all Human are from one source...........this is proven and claimed by Scientists in their appropriate field........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • NeliNeli May 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    I think in genetics, pannets law applies....which talks about probabilities and not laws...
    Chances that good parents will produce good babies are higher but not a guarantee.
    Neli's law says U boys are knotty with your measurements. And I wish u reversed your priorities in girls. he he he !
    that is koi and babes......but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And every one is entitled to that.
    Half of my fish arrived....the one from the north....Niigata.
    All the best is from the south. Including Tanakasan.

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