KENKONA KOI- Healthy Koi
  • gerrygerry June 2012
    Posts: 777
    Hi bro Shukri, yes u are nearby. I'm in Taman Melawati. :) Started this hobby when I was in Form 4... Now 26 years old adi. My pond is about 3 tons. Have 12 kois at the moment. The Ogon (named Midas) has been with me since I started. I've never measured my kois before. So can't really tell. I loved this hobby ever since my first hand feeding session with kois. You can come by if u don't mind my three dogs. :)
  • idrisidris June 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Gerry...don't mind on your 3 dogs! Just watch out on the tiger that coming...hehehe :-))
  • gerrygerry June 2012
    Posts: 777
    Bro Idris, so late tak tidur lagi?? Hehehe... Thanks for the heads up on the "Tiger". Will make sure I have the wildlife department on standby... ;p
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Sorry sis gerry for the miss gender. Like koi too, we often mistaken female for a male :-D

    Anyway, since the tiger is just in the next door jungle, you can always refer anything "about koi" to him ;-)
  • idrisidris June 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Yup...koi is his expertise...can learn a lot from him... :-D
  • gerrygerry June 2012
    Posts: 777
    No probs Bro IKK... small matter on the gender thingy... :-D

    Bro IKK and Bro Idris: Yup, yup... Will do. ;)
  • ShukriShukri June 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    I am wondering which Tiger that the Seremban kakis are referring to? The lame cat with the wounded left paw I know laaaa! :-)) :-)) :-))

    Anyway, nice to know you Gerry. This is a wonderful hobby and more importantly are the koi kichis and this wonderful Koi Community.....

    Dogs don't scare me, as I am a pet lover. Apart from the kois,I have a guinea pig named PEANUT, and at least 20 cats at home.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-06-02 02:51:46 pm
  • gerrygerry June 2012
    Posts: 777
    Hahahahahaha.... nice to know all you bros too, Abang Shukri....

    Nice to know that you love pets too.... :-D Besides my kois and dogs, I have a Hedgehog named He-Man, three fighting fishes and lots of ikan longkang... used to have two cicak as pets but my mum hates them so no more adi....

    I'm usually free on weekends la if you wanna come visit my small pond.. :)

    By the way, wanna ask... will Yamakoshi be open tomorrow? Need to get a bottle of Kenkona for my kois. :-D
  • gerrygerry June 2012
    Posts: 777
    Hi Bros,

    An update since my first time using Kenkona Koi last Sunday. Blue tinge only lasted a couple of hours then water was clear again. The Ogon is still gulping and parking. No more gulping from the other fishes but still some flashing going on. All are hungry and asking for food when I'm near the pond.

    Is it because the dosage is not right? Could my pond be more than 3 tonnes? Gah! I hate not knowing the exact tonnage of my pond! banghead

    I am thinking of increasing the dosage from 50ml to 60ml. Is it advisable?

    Appreciate any help.
  • idrisidris June 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    nope..dont over dose sis...kenkona is highly concentrated...i suggest you do second treatment and we see from there...change 15-20% of water before you perform second treatment..if your pond is 3 ton thats mean you should use 50ml only..

    may i know how you calculate your pond volume? is it including filter?
  • gerrygerry June 2012
    Posts: 777
    Okay Abang Idris...

    Rough calculation as my pond is D-Shaped = 9' length x 5' width at widest part and almost 3' deep. Filter is one sand filter and 1 normal biological filter with 5 compartments.
  • ShukriShukri June 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Gerry,
    Easiest is to convert the dimensions in meters, multiply all of them and you will get the metric tonnage........
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  • gerrygerry June 2012
    Posts: 777
    Hi Bro Shukri,

    Ok. Looks like got homework to do la.... ish...

    Thanks a lot!
  • ShukriShukri June 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Thanks to Bro Ashfaq who did the calculations...........it should be 3.6855 metric ton......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-06-05 07:25:11 pm
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Sis Gerry,
    Sorry couldt get to you earlier. I'm in Jeddah rite now. I had quite a busy flight schedule lately.

    60ml will be the correct dosage(3.6 ton). Dont worry about the bluish water colour turned to colourless. Believe me the medication is still in there.

    After 3 days, carry out partial water change(around 15 to 20 percent will do). Feed the kois if you want to. And the next day, try another round of treatment.

    For gulping, it might not cure but might reduced. For flashing and parking, you should be ab;e to see the result. At the same time, check your water parameter so that you will know the cause of the problem.

    Thank you for trying Kenkona Koi sis. Thanks bros, for helping out.
  • ashfaqashfaq June 2012
    Posts: 799
    Welcome brother shukri :)
    Thanks,
    Ashfaq from India-Chennai
  • gerrygerry June 2012
    Posts: 777
    Thank you Bro Shukri, Bro Ashfaq, Bro Mike and Bro IKK!!

    New update: Last night, after doing my daily back flush of the sand filter, watched my kois for quite a while.... none were flashing anymore and only the Ogon was left gulping once in a while (not so often anymore). :)

    Ogon is swimming more but still in semi-parking mode... so will wash my sand filter today and dose the pond tomorrow evening and see how it goes. :-D

    Thanks again to all bros who helped! ;;)
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Sis gerry,

    Good to know on the recovery. If all have recovered, no need for second dose. Just watch the Ogon few more days. Some kois which have parked for a while, will take a bit more time to swim normally. After a few days then you can decide weather to go for the second treatment or not. Parking without the fins closed is ok once a while.
    Post edited by ikankoikau at 2012-06-06 05:33:42 pm
  • gerrygerry June 2012
    Posts: 777
    Bro IKK,

    Ok, noted. Maybe I'll wait till the weekend for the second dose.

    Now let them eat a little first. :)

    Thanks!
  • ShukriShukri June 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Dear bros and sis,
    Kenkona come to the rescue again in my pond. Lately, a few of my kois have these ugly skin problem. I have suspected that it could be a fungus outbreak, but I wasn't sure. I was just scared that it might be HIKUI. So, I use 2 rounds of Kenkona and you better believe it that it works......the fishes are cured. The cured skin looks tender and slimy. I adhere to the recommended dosage written on the bottle. My pond has '0' salt.

    To just seal it, I am going for the 3rd round.......... Kenkona sure works wonders for this kind of skin disease....... :-D

    I salute you Kapitan Borman for making Kenkona available to us......Thanks Captain......
    You sure you still want to be a pilot? :-D
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  • idrisidris June 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Same like my pond... 0 salt...hehehe...
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Go to know that Kenkona Koi works for you bro Shukri. The right dossage and application is very important. Kind to share what did you do and how you performed the second and 3 dossage. From feedback, some hobbyist applied differently when they went for second dossage. Is it as per my recommendation?

    Thanks bro.
  • ShukriShukri June 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    As for me, the dosage period is for 5 days. Change 25% water and then apply the subsequent dosage. I have noticed that the medicine effectiveness is somewhat low after the 5th day.......

    If too strong a dosage will be counter productive as the fish will be under a lot of stress.
    If too low also not very good.......I notice slightly plus or minus the recommended amount is OK........

    Special care if treating the doitsu and the Shiros.......

    During treatment, if you notice a few gulping here and there is nothing to worry about.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-06-11 02:44:42 pm
  • kwchankwchan June 2012
    Posts: 131
    Hi all, I observe there's a new kenkona product in the market lately called kenkona bacteria, is it the new kenkona series just launched? I think it's not a medicine, so have anyone using it and mind to further elaborate its function? Thanks.
  • pandaipandai June 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Wow!!! Kenkona bacteria already in the market??? Bro captain, one bottle please!!! \:D/

    Bro Shukri, can u describe the "ugly skin problem"? I had similar thing too I think - what looks like "Hikui" on the beni of my showa. I was actually at that time treating my pond with Kenkona for another "fungus like" problem on my chagoi but I notice very slight reduction on the problem of my Showa. If Kenkona can cure that problem too then I might try a few more doses lah... :-?
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • ShukriShukri June 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Pandai,
    It is something like what you have described.........I have done 3 dosages and monitoring the progress of the skin infection. So far so good. This is not Hikui as I have seen Hikui on a few ocassions......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-06-26 07:38:39 am
  • mangkellmangkell June 2012
    Posts: 1,221
    Bro IKK,

    I found that Kenkona is not listed in Yamakoshi web site under koi medication.

    Will ask Mr Mah/ Ms Carine ... but with your assistance would be better Bro Captain.

    Online purchase is my only option here in Kota Bharu, Kelantan.

    Tq

    Mickeyko Ducati-Kujamon Chagreemon Brabus#Sexy-Robust
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar June 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro Aznan,

    Yamakoshi Penang do have Kenkona Koi, went there last weekend but not sure on Kenkona Bacteria.

    I still have S1. Once I finished it, would switch to Kenkona.

    Rgds,
    TK
  • idrisidris June 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    I have been using the bio since march 2012... Mix with koi food...just put 6% of it and mix with the pallet...function I will let captain explain more...
  • pandaipandai June 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Bro Idris,
    Is the one you referred to before in this posting is the one that you mixed with koi food or is it the type that you pour into the pond? Or are they just the same?
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Good morning Brudders,

    Sorry for not able to be online that often. Very busy these couple of months. When I reached home tomorrow, I will have a few days off to joint this forum. In Paris right now.

    Bro kwchan, Kenkona Bio, it has not been officially launched but Gosanke Koi has started using and selling it. Quite a number of hobbyist have tried it especially when they came for Idris' pond visit the other day. Even the label is not attach to the bottle yet :-D.

    It's a life microbes that you add into the koi food. Test on this formula has been carried out by a few countries on Talapia and table fishes. On one of the test result, after 3 months of using this formula at 6% of food, all the talapias have increased in size (compared to feeding only the same food) by more than 25% at least with zero casualty. Some even up to 40%. This has resulted an increase in cycle for yearly supply and has reduced cost as they dont have to supply their talapia with high protein food any longer.

    You will notice the increase of appetite and it is mcuh better than normal probiotic. One of the bacteria in the product is used in "Yakult" drink. Because of this bacteria, Yakult is good for human for many reasons. No side effect on this product at all. The bacteria will break down the food chain for easier digestion. BUT, we cant use it too much or with every meal in our hobby as the water will be very rich with nutrient as the bacteria is still alive after the kois shit out :-D Bubbles will be present if too much usage.

    So how much is too much depend on your surface skimmer function, water change
    practise and general pond water condition. Using it morning and evening feed is ok. No need to worry too much on how much to add it, mix it just enough to wet the food. This product can also be used for plant and soil.

    Actually, for the past one year, I have suddenly got very high interest in these life microbes and bacteria. I am now working on a few products with Biotech companies(oversea) to come out with products which is good to our hobby and very much CHEAPER than what we have in the market right now. It will be better as the formula is specificly for koi & koi pond which is different compare to general aquaculture. It took me quite sometimes to explain what koi and koi pond needed and the differences compared to general aquaculture especilally we emphasize on clear & healty water quality rather than a natural pond full with algae and green water.

    The one bro Idris has mentioned under "Case Study" thread is one of them. I will find time to write on that. I have tested the product and pro water tester is currently testing my pond water. The result should be out in a week.

    On Kenkona Koi, to avoid the initial stress when added to the pond, pour half portion first and the other half after 30-45mins. This will avoid having high concentration volume of water when pouring at one go. If you can add a quater portion every 15 mins, it will be much better. The idea is to let Kenkona Koi to circulate evenly at correct dossage rather than high concentration at certain volume and only evenly circulated after a few hours.

    I need to pack now. Thanks for all the Q. Cheers bro & sis.
    Post edited by ikankoikau at 2012-06-26 04:47:21 pm
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro,
    For hobbyist outside Klang Valley, I will courier to you. Due to my agreement with the dealers, I can't sell to hobbyist within Klang Valley. For the same reason, the price will be the same as sold by them. Currently Yamakoshi and Gosanke Koi are selling it. By the way, for the courier charges, it will be on me.

    Regards.
    Post edited by ikankoikau at 2012-06-26 03:11:16 pm
  • ShukriShukri June 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro IKK,
    I have used kenkona several times now, in my pond as well as the other pond that I am taking care off. I follow strictly the recommended dosage. Within the first few hours, I often see the kois gulping, which to me is only normal as the fishes sense the medication and are adjusting to it. Normally by the second 24 hours, you will see the kois getting back to their normal behavior and no more gulping or reduced significantly.....
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • gerrygerry June 2012
    Posts: 777
    Hmmm... My kois don't gulp wor when I put the medication... Is it because dose still kurang??

    Wanna ask... Is it ok if I add more of the Kenkona into the pond after the first dose was done yesterday? My Ogon is still gulping n parking n now my Shiro utsuri is also gulping... :(

    Headache!!!
  • ShukriShukri June 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Don't worry Gerry,
    Collectively we will figure out what's wrong and the cause of action.......
    I hope your ogon is not suffering from sinking disease........
    Also hope that your kois do not have gill flukes......if they gulps frequently,
    it could be gill flukes........

    I will bring my microscope and do a gill swab then see under a microscope.....
    If there are gill flukes, it will show.......
    Don't worry, it will not cost you anything........The microscope has helped many koi hobbyists before.........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • gerrygerry June 2012
    Posts: 777
    I think the Ogon might just be suffering from sinking disease la bro Shukri - together with the gulping and parking....

    Only two so far I have seen gulping....

    Wah, bringing microscope and all - tabik la bro Shukri.... I might not have a big enough container for the Ogon.... :/
  • pandaipandai June 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Don't worry, Gerry - I'm sure bro Shukri can even bring container also!!! Right Bro Shukri??? :-"
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • ShukriShukri June 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Pandai,
    I will be riding my Kawasaki Versys 650............if I bring my measuring tank, than I have to balance it on my head while riding.......hehehehehe! :-)) :-)) :-)) We see how the Ogon can be bowled out........ :-D
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  • ShukriShukri June 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    My apology bro IKK for hijacking the Kenkona thread........

    Now back to Kenkona and Kenkona Bio (bacteria).
    Is kenkona going to be made available in 4 liters container, and when will the
    Kenkona Bio be available officially?
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  • idrisidris June 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    bro shukri..kenkona come in 1 liter and 5 liter packaging...
  • ShukriShukri June 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    OK bro...........aku sudah ketinggalan zaman........
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  • idrisidris June 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    bukan ketinggalan zaman..cuma busy dengan filter terbaru..hehehhehehe
  • farikfarik June 2012
    Posts: 317
    Sis gerry, i can bring my measuring tank... bro shukri can do his magic then....
  • gerrygerry June 2012
    Posts: 777
    Bro Farik, thanks for the offer... but in the other thread bro Thiam Hwa already bringing his... :D
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Thanks bro Shukri and bro Idris for the info.

    Actually I have carried out test on 2 type of products which is currently waiting for water test result. These are different compares to the bacteria for food. These product have specified task. I will release it only when the test result is encouraging.


    1) BIO DENITRATION

    High concentration bacteria which economical to use. This is the one that bro Idris used in the Case Study thread.

    Dosage: 2 gram per ton (1st application)
                1gram per ton (subsequent applications)

    Recommended usage: To improve overall water quality, for new pond, pond maintenance, after pond treatment, heavy feeding and overstock pond. For pond maintenance, recommended to use every 15 days. 

    Function:
    1) Degrade Ammonia, Nitrite and Hydrogen Sulfide into Nitrate.
    2) Increase Dissolved Oxygen and water aeration.
    3) Promote healthy, lively, rich, fresh and clear water. Improve overall water environment.
    4) Purify pond substrate.
    5) Eliminate all symptoms caused by Nitrite poisoning and sudden death due unknown cause.
    6) Increase appetite and accelerate growth.
    7) Reduce stress and promote active behavior.
    8) Active and strong microbes will dominate position in bacteria flora and inhibit the growth of harmful germs and miscellaneous bacterium.



    2) BIO CLARITY

    Also high concentration.

    Dosage: 1 gram per ton (1st application)
                0.5 gram per ton (subsequent applications)

    Recommended usage: To improve overall water quality and clarity, pond maintenance, for poor water quality due too much organic waste, heavy feeding and overstock pond. For pond maintenance, use every 15 day. 

    Function:
    1) Reduce and eliminate organic waste. Clears waste organism, reduce sewage in the bottom of the pond, clean up the water and inhibit the growth of some harmful plankton.
    2) Convert accumulated waste, suspended particles and soluble organic to Oxygen gases, Nitrogen, CO2 and water. 
    3) Speed up nitrification process. Convert Ammonia, Nitrite and Hydrogen Sulfide to harmless Nitrogen and Nitrogen Oxide.
    4) Reduce Nitrate effectively.
    5) Reduce Total Suspended Solid(TSS), Chemical Oxygen Demand (COD) and Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD).
    6) Increase Dissolved Oxygen
    7) Purify pond substrate and improve general water environment and clarity and reduce odor.    
    8) Increase the beneficial microbial population in water and inhibit the growth of harmful bacterium.


    If the test come out as per claimed by Biotech experts, these products can change and improve in many areas in this hobby. From the naked eyes and normal test kit, I'm convinced. I will update the forum when full water test report received.

    Thank you. Regards.
  • MikeMike June 2012
    Posts: 346
    Bravo Capt ... =D> Hope your test comes out to your expectation and your hard work will benefit the koi community.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Thanks bro. It has been months of exchange infos to come out with good and cheap option for this specific hobby. I hope it will turn out well too ;-)
  • vinsonchuavinsonchua June 2012
    Posts: 163
    Hi Bro ikankoikau

    Is this range of product available in Singapore? Thanks.

  • MikeMike June 2012
    Posts: 346
    (Y) ... Cheers Capt.
  • HDCuHDCu June 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Ikankoikau,

    Here in our country, there is such a local made cheap biological probiotics product that is being marketed for aquaculture where the first seeding is like four liters per hectare of pond and a maintenance of one liter per week. I have it in my cabinet of koi stuff but never used it yet.

    There is another interesting probiotic new product made by Evolution Aqua called Pure Pond which is Good bacteria housed in small gelatin balls. Basically, the concept of Evolution Aqua, the gelatin bacteria balls can be mixed inside a fluidized k1 or bead filter where the good bacteria is slowly released where it is needed most to colonize. One can also house these bacteria balls in a small net housing and submerged only one half inside the settlement chamber where there is little aeration and where bad bacteria is more likely to multiply if is not flushed constantly. These balls will slowly get smaller within a month or two slowly releasing beneficial bacteria that will improve water condition, lower DOC and fight the growth of bad bacteria.

    There is no doubt that probiotics is now the new trend in koi keeping. I myself do not believe anymore of using UV light to control greenwater but I believe more of using enough bacteria medium and constant supply of probiotics even in the food to control bad bacteria population,nitrate, phosphate and DOC.

    There is of course a danger I think of overdosing with too much probiotics as PH may suddenly drop in certain pond without much buffer causing sudden stress to kois. I suggest future customers be made aware what is the acceptable limit.
  • idrisidris June 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Bro hdcu..I believe captain already mention the right dosage to be used plus time frame for maintenance..in any case yes, there is slightly drop of PH..but if u have sufficient oyster shell then it would be no problem...when this product went commercial later, it will be advice about its pro n con on its packaging and the right instruction to use it...from my experience on using it, this product made NPS a history and i am willing to deal with the slightly PH drop...but if u follow 10 to 15% water change daily it would be fine...just my opinion bro...hehe...
  • ShukriShukri June 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    I believe each pond is unique, so finding the right and correct dosage is very important. When you do, then things will be OK....... Frequent water topping & water changes definitely help.......

    I am waiting for the latest test results from Bro IKK.............
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Thanks bros for your comment and info.

    Bro HDCu, it seems that we are heading in the same direction ;-) Biotech technology has progressed fast and in general, human and living creatures have no choice but to revert to nature in order to preserve our aged planet. Bacteria and microorganism exist naturally and have been living in this planet from the start. And now the Biotech scientist has the ability to culture, pick and choose this microorganism and bacteria for the specific task. But this must been done carefully to avoid contamination. That's why not all Biotech companies can produce the same result.

    I'm convinced of certain things. To name a few which are related to our hobby:
    1) NPS could be something less stressful for us as we have instant life bacteria that can function almost immediately. It might only take a week or less to stabilize if correct bacteria and correct usage has been carried out.

    2) Bad bacteria can be supressed, dominated or eliminated by good bacteria in our pond system. On this, I can see the different as my kois have recovered faster. I don't even bother to net them for minor injury as it will recovere on it's own. No developing ulcer compared to a year back. Less medication or chemical needed.

    3) The growth and health of kois can be improved significantly. I have personally witness my Hi Utsuri grew from 20plus cm to 72cm in just 14 months. I hv been adding life microbes to the koi food for quite sometimes already. That is why I can tell you that it's good and safe. Some kichis have asked me, what did I feed my koi with when my showa for 2nd Yamakoshi Cup has reached 47cm on the 12th June. I just feed like most hobbyist, Saki Hikari growth and colour but with life microbes added. Furthermore I am always not around so I don't feed my kois as much as I want to or should.

    4) Reducing of organic waste. With life bacteria, I am convinced and witnessed the reduction of waste and sludge in my filter. We might also have new option to reduce Nitrate as water change, having plant and trickle tower were the popular methods.

    The list continues. But this doesn't means we dont need to carry out partial change water frequently. Even the Biotech expert whom I have spoken to strongly recommended partial water change practise. There are many benefits from partial water change. At least I know that they know what they were talking about and not just about selling their product.

    The main issue here is HOW MUCH will it cost? What are the precautions? What should be the safe practise? What bro HDCu has said is correct. We must know to what element tha waste or toxic has been changed to. Correct dosage and proper PH buffer is important.

    I have discovered on how much koi medication or human medication may have cost by accident and how much profit have been made. But surely I understood that people needs to make money too. That's why 1L Kenkona Koi was suggested to be sold around RM380per bottle at least on the shelf. Maybe hobbyist will be skeptical too on cheap product. Hahaha...

    The bacteria and life microbes too is not cheap. But personally, with the same result and putting the crapt product aside, we should be able to get these product cheaper. Cheaper enough for hobbyist to use as maintenance and precaution. Not many hobbyist willing to spend on precaution measures as we dont see the problem in front of our eyes. But when the koi is sicked, we got no choice but to spend so much money on the medication and worst to deal with casualty of our lovely kois.

    Sorry for writing this long essay. Must be early morning single man syndrome :-))
    But that is just my 2 cent tot.

    Cheers
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Hi bro Vinson,

    Not sure about Singapore but should have. Maybe not exactly same purpose but may have similar general objectives. Price will be different from brand to brand.
  • HDCuHDCu June 2012
    Posts: 1,117


    I do believe there are two more advantage of putting live good bacteria in the koi food . One is the improvement in the food absorbency rate and the other is improvement of the koi immune system.

    The food absorbency rate is the ability of the koi to efficiently absorb the nutrients for growth and development of better pigmentation. With the live bacteria already working to break down the proteins and minerals in the intestine of the koi, less food waste is generated. This is what Hikari probiotics strain about. However, in the manufacture of koi food with probiotic, there is a need to make dry pellets as such dried inactive strains of probiotics is just coated on top of the koi pellet instead of being mixed and cooked with the pellet ingredient. Live active probiotics with enough food source however are more active, plenty and therefore much more potent while not being limited to select strains that can only exist in a dry pellet environment.

    The subject of probiotics improving the immune system is nothing new. Many studies have been to suggest the beneficial effects of probiotics.
    1. There is one study rats subjected to stress conditions had a lower harmful bacteria in their intestine when fed with water with specific probiotic comparedgo one fed with sterile water.
    2. A 2011 study found that mice given Lactobacillus rhamnosus JB-1 showed lower levels of stress and anxiety than controls.
    3.A 2010 study suggested that probiotics, by introducing "good" bacteria into the gut, may help maintain immune system activity, which in turn helps the body react more quickly to new infections. Antibiotics seem to reduce immune system activity as a result of killing off the normal gut bacteria
    4. Some strains of LActobacillus affect pathogens by means of competitive inhibition (i.e., by competing for growth) and there is evidence to suggest that they may improve immune function by increasing the number of IgA-producing plasma cells, increasing or improving phagocytosis as well as increasing the proportion of T lymphocytes and Natural Killer cell
    5. Animal studies have demonstrated the efficacy some strains of LAB to be able to lower serum cholesterol levels, presumably by breaking down bile in the gut, thus inhibiting its reabsorption (which enters the blood as cholesterol).
    6. In laboratory investigations, some strains of LAB (Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus) have demonstrated anti-mutagenic effects thought to be due to their ability to bind with heterocyclic amines, which are carcinogenic substances formed in cooked meat. Animal studies have demonstrated that some LAB have evidence for acting against colon cancer in rodents, though human data are inconclusive.

    There is not much study with regards to the potential of certain probiotics in improving the growth rate though of kois. Im not sure Saki Hikari has made such studies though but I think they do. What I do know is that a koi with less stress to worry in its environment and with good immune system to avoid getting sick will be a healthy long living koi that can achieve its potential possibly better.

    Bro Ikankoikau,

    Like you I have been adding live microbes in my koi food for some time. However, instead of maintaining or adding more food(as koi seem to have more appetitie), I have taken the decision to in fact to reduce the kois high protein food to control growth. Growth rate in length and girth is still acceptable while colors and shine has improved even without spirulina. Meanwhile koi shit has significantly been reduced with nitrates level now at just 5 to 10 instead of 20 to 40. Moreover, I feel there is no need to further accelerate growth to the detriment of the lifespan of the koi. At the end of the day, what is important for me is to enjoy my kois longer. The lower food cost also offsets for the increase in cost of adding probiotics and supplements. :)
  • AnuarAnuar June 2012
    Posts: 688
    Capt Bro,

    I tested your denitrification bacteria yesterday on my QT tank which is fouling due to NPS. Eventhough I did not have any test kit, I was pleased to see the smell gone after about an hour or so. I used to use this product, called AN remover - Bro Alan Sim used it back then - http://www.aquatickoi.com/tag/an-remover . I believe they are both similar, though the one supplied by Capt is finer in size.

    Regards.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro HDCu,

    Are you a biochemist bro? You have explained it well. I couldn't write better :-)) Anyway, there are long list benefits, study and test carried out but what we really need is the formula that suit this hobby. Not as general aquaculture. You have explained well the different of probiotic in koi food and live microbes.

    As for the live microbes, koi health is the priority. Growth comes with good absorption and digestion. In keeping good standard koi for show esp, growth only will not be sufficient. It has to come with health, skin quality and pattern too. To have the options is a luxury. To utilize the options will be depending on what hobbyist is trying to achieve. For sure, with live microbes, high protien food(which can be more expensive and produce more waste) may not be required. This will offset the cost of buying high protien food and medication. Feeding too can be reduce, less waste and more kois can be added into the pond :-))

    One thing good to know bro, I'm not alone going for this biotech formula for this hobby.

    Regards.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro Anuar,

    Thanks for the feedback bro. I got the same result from the normal test kit. Hopefully the pro tester result will indicate the same too. Many products out there which might have the same objective. The different maybe on the end result, dosage and cost.

    Thanks again bro.
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar June 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    removed
    Post edited by Bthineshkumar at 2012-06-28 06:24:14 pm
  • HDCuHDCu June 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Bthineshkumar,

    As this thread is Kenkona, I think its more appropriate you ask or find your answer in this thread instead

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/414/visit-by-vivakoi-to-my-humble-pond-to-promote-vivakoi-live-microbes/p1
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-06-28 05:21:58 pm
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar June 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Ok bro,
    Would post there.

    Thanks
    TK
  • SsmannSsmann July 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bros n sis,

    I have just been bitten by the koi bug, new pond in new home and now have ALL the problems I read on this thread and forum. I live in Klang and the dealer I bought my kois from advised to use s1 with some salt. My pond is 2.5 tonne and if include filter another 2 tonne. Yes I insisted a same sized filter for pond. I have gill problems, parking, redness. My koi are ochiba, plain white, kohaku. I have 6 koi that are about 45 - 60 cm and 3 butterfly koi that r no more than 15 cm. I m gonna try kenkona, after the dose of s1 is over on wednesday. I plan to drain 50 percent water on wednesday and clean filter thoroughly and then apply kenkona. Pls help to advise me if this is acceptable. Also I have googled the 2 koi centers stated here, may I know where yamagoshi is. I only know where atari koi in tropicana is situated. Thank you all so much for helping a newbie like me. I feel like the breeder I purchased from has not been honest with me nor educated me on how to manage a new pond n treat ailments.....pls help

    After reading this forum, I have so much more info but also confused. You guys r so knowledgeable, must have learnt through many trials and tribulations.....one day I hope to get there

    What should i do now? Should i drain the pond off the S1 (after reading that this may not be effective for the problems i am facing) and the salt, then fill up, decholorinate and add PP to treat whole pond and then Kenkona? I think QT, wont work, the whole pond needs to be treated, and thereafter no more new koi and allow filter and ecosystem to mature?

    What should i do? Confused....

    Pls see my thread on Koi Ponds, which Bro HDCu has so kindly assisted with http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/1619/introducing-a-newbie-ssmann-and-his-pond/#Item_9

    Thanks - Ssmann
    Post edited by Ssmann at 2012-07-01 01:38:01 pm
  • elwinbelwinb July 2012
    Posts: 36
    Bro,
    Yamakoshi is just some distance away around the corner of Atari. From Atari main entrance outwards, go towards the left direction where there are some area selling plants and pottery, just go straight and you will find Yamakoshi on your right.
  • SsmannSsmann July 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Elwinb, many thanks! This helps. This time I want to do it right, so will await response from other hobbyist to confirm what is the best step. Too many chemicals now in the pond, which i suspect does not help the koi and water at all. Listen to all these koi farmers, who probably just wanna make a quick buck from me, they smell a novice from far!!! Hahahahhaha

    The best shop, was the shop I bought my 3 initial carp from, who thought me quarantine, gave me medicines etc for free. When i bought the ori koi, the koi breeder, just bagged it and wished me the best!!! I knew something was already amiss then. Just like anything else in life, we learn as we make mistakes. Sometimes, costly and painful
    Post edited by Ssmann at 2012-07-01 01:15:00 pm
  • elwinbelwinb July 2012
    Posts: 36
    Remember don't go to the main tar road, it is the more bumpy trunk road on the side.
  • SsmannSsmann July 2012
    Posts: 164
    thanks bro....i roughly know where...my wife's favourite spot for plants
  • ikankoikauikankoikau July 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro Ssmann,
    Welcome to this forum. You are surely in the right place to gain knowledge. With the combined effort and experience of bros n sisters here, you will always fine koianswers to your problem :)

    From the info I gained from you, I believe that you pond has not matured and New Pond Syndrome(NPS) is very much in play. It is very important that you know the root of the problem before you treat your pond & koi with medication. The water quality is the main issue. Even when we got hospitalized, the condition of the hospital must be condusive and comfortable for recovery. Worst case scenario, the hospital itself is promoting the disease and things will get worst.

    From the syntoms, I believe you kois are affected by Nitrite poisoning or Ammonia & Nitrite poisoning. It's not parasite or bacteria that caused the problem. The kois are stressed and immune system is downed. You need to buy test kit for Ammonia(NH3 & NH4), Nitrite(No2), Nitrate(NO3) and PH. The first two are very important at this stage. From the test result, we can identify in which phase you are in the NPS.

    If Ammonia and Nitrite present, partial water change is required. Salt level around 0.3% will protect your kois against Nitrite poisoning. That means, Salinity Meter is needed too. Add Nitrifying Bacteria will be good to accelerate Bacteria build up.

    To summarize, carry out partial water change around 20-30% to reduce Ammonia and Nirite poisoning level and to dilute pheromones. Add salt around 13.5kg to increase salinity level considering your pond and filter is 4.5 ton. These steps alone will bring the water to safe level and will reduce koi's stress level. Then monitor the kois' behaviour.

    Kenkona is a formula to treat those problems that your kois are having but you may not need it as the water condition is the real issue here. Not so much of bad bacteria, parasite or fungus. Just providing good water quality, it might solve the problem. You can even raise the salt level to 0.5% or 22.5kg to treat the kois. Salt is a better option at this moment because you need to culturize or build good bacteria in your filter. Medication might slow down the build up process.

    Provide as much aeration in the pond and filter. But make sure not too much turbulent effect in the filter as this will affect bacteria build up process in the filter. Light feeding for a few days. Carry out daily water change between 10-15%. If the Ammonia or Nirite level is too high, carry out 15-25% water change. Make sure you add anti chlorine.

    Keep us update on the progress bro. You can contact Klang hobbyist for help such as Bro Aaron, Zin and Doc.

    Regards

    Post edited by ikankoikau at 2012-07-01 09:05:28 pm
  • SsmannSsmann July 2012
    Posts: 164
    Hello Bro Ikankoikau, thanks for the welcome and the very useful posts!

    Indeed, after I drain the S1 out of the pond on Wed, I will fill up and decholorinate with TensionGon and also to assist with conditioning the water. Will then salt up the pond, which will cause a massive amount of foam...but thats alright. Will let the filter and water mature naturally. In that time, these koi I have will all be experiemental...I hope each one makes it through. I am using Microbelift, trust this is nitrifying bacteria that will assist too?

    The other problem I have with the pond design is that my contractor conveniently forgot to include a overflow in the pond, but has put it in the filter. Thus I have the tedious job of using a skimmer each day to net out debris and foam from the top of the water....hiya, to fit an overflow in now with the koi in will be a headache and more stress to the koi....any suggestions on how to overcome this?

    Will keep all posted bro, as I go through this remedy journey to ensure the water is safe and conducive for the kois

    Thanks again bro!
    Post edited by Ssmann at 2012-07-02 09:27:30 am
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Hi Bro Ssmann,
    That is one of the many reasons why a Forum like this is beneficial for all new and old hobbyists alike..........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • SsmannSsmann July 2012
    Posts: 164
    Bro Shukri, i wished i knew the existence of this forum 3 months ago....i would have saved lots of money, time and hassle...not to mention stress on me and the koi!!
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar July 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro SSmann,

    Would suggest all your problems and quiries is maintained in one tread as this would not confuse Sifu's to guide you.
    Now I see another tread with filter system issue. So I suggest for you to copy the info in filter system to your original tread and we can continue from there as this issue still related with your pond problem.

    Hope you don't mind

    Thanks and Regards,
    Tk
  • SsmannSsmann July 2012
    Posts: 164
    Tq bro TK. I shall do that right away.
  • gerrygerry July 2012
    Posts: 777
    Hi all,

    I recently added two new kois to my pond. Quarantined for 5 days then released into main pond along with a dosage of Kenkona.

    However, now all my original kois are flashing seriously and parking at the bottom with fins clamped (sometimes).

    I cleaned the sand filter and biological filter today and added another dose of Kenkona (60ml) but the kois still flashing terribly.... The question now is "What should I do?".

    Do I let Kenkona work and see how it goes tomorrow or do I add another dosage later?

    Wanna ask also whether the Kenkona I bought is the diluted version or not? If it is, then the dosage for my pond (3.6 tons) should be around 300ml??

    Haiz..... buy new fish also headache..... :-((
  • farikfarik July 2012
    Posts: 317
    Sis gerry,
    this kenkona thingy i shall have to let capt borman guide.... In this situation normally without kenkona i will dose malachite green 0.2gm/tan and let it soak for 2 days...3rd day change 20-25% water then it should be ok....
  • ikankoikauikankoikau July 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Sis Gerry,

    Just online in tokyo. I suggest to you to stop feeding for a while. How is your water parameter? Very important to know the real problem. Kenkona acts against parasite, bacteria and fungus. If the water is giving the problem, it must be corrected first.

    How much water did you change before you add the 2nd dosage? 60ml is correct dosage for your 3.6ton pond. I am worried if you have overdosed on the second treatment. One hobbyist has the same problem due to new addition and heavy rain. He added salt initially but it didnt work. Then he diluted the salt and use Kenkona. For one day, the kois were
    still flashing with slight reduction. The next day, all the kois were back to normal.

    The Kenkona sold has not been diluted. Still the same concentration and dosage. I suggest you wait till tomorrow and see what happen. It will take time to see the result but after one day, it should be fine provided water para is not the root of the problem.

    Keep us update sis. Regards.
  • gerrygerry July 2012
    Posts: 777
    Bro Farik,

    Thanks for the contribution.... tapi I takde Malachite Green la... Only have Kenkona at the moment... PP also finish...

    Bro Borman,

    Have stopped feeding since yesterday night. I took out almost 1/3 of the pond water when I washed the sand filter just now. Then I added the Kenkona slightly more than 60ml... (thought would work faster)... now still adding new water to the pond by means of trickle of tap water.

    I also added salt initially (this morning before washing the sand filter) but a bit only... around 6kg... not enough to do any damage to the parasite or whatever it is...

    Just cant stand watching the kois flashing and lying at the bottom.... feeling helpless... :-<

    Neway, thanks for the advices bros.. Appreciate it. :)
  • ikankoikauikankoikau July 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Sis Gerry,

    The dosage is correct. No need to add more. But around 6kg of salt in your pond can raise the salinity level to almost 0.2%.

    But since you have diluted it, it should be ok to use Kenkona. The thing is, there may or may not be reaction after you use Kenkona. For some hobbyist(including me), not much reaction unless the problem was already long. Normally, you can see the improvement in one day or two. For some problem on early the stage, you can see the result after a few hours.

    Rain and new addition always caused havoc to many ponds. Keep us update tomorrow sis.

    Regards
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Hi Gerry,
    When you said that the new fishes were quarantined for 5 days, what did you do to the fishes during the 5 days? I just would like to understand......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • gerrygerry July 2012
    Posts: 777
    Bro Borman,

    Ok. Will let you know what happens tomorrow. (Cross fingers and hope for the best!)

    Bro Shukri,

    During the five days, got the new fishes acclimatised to my main pond water and added salt also. Made full water changes daily with minimal feeding. Only used salt as did not want to stress the baby kois.... both around 6 inches...
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Hi Gerry thanks. Just to share with you what I do when I quarantine kois. I normally do it for a week, but nowadays the quarantine guru (Bro Seng Choon) does it for me. :-D
    When you quarantine, you will want to use the same water as in the pond, so that the new kois will adapt to the pond water. And assuming the worst that the new kois could carry and harbor e.g. parasites, bad bacteria, fungus etc. So during quarantine, you might want to put the appropriate medication to get rid of these. Soaking the new fish in Kenkona is a good idea during the quarantine. If you want to use salt, my experience is at least a 0.5% salt. Any less will not be able to kill certain parasites and bacteria. S1 is another medication that you can use......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • gerrygerry July 2012
    Posts: 777
    Thanks bro Shukri! The dealer packed the kois in S1 solution for me to take home. Then in that 5 days, I only put salt twice I think. Didn't have the meter at that time so don't know if I put adequate salt or not. Have since gotten the meter.

    Will just have to wait till tomoro n count on Kenkona to help my fishies overcome this attack.
  • gerrygerry July 2012
    Posts: 777
    Hi All,

    I checked my kois this morning (6.30am) before going to work and there is still flashing going on.... some are at the bottom (fins clamped sometimes).

    So, should I dose the pond with another round of Kenkona when I get back later? Or should I buy salt and salt the pond to 0.5?

    Wanna ask also - is it 0.5ppt or 0.5%?

    Thanks.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau July 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    sis,
    Just update us later when you get back. Dont dose anything yet. Observe again this evening. Dont feed the koi.
    Normally we go percentage, e.g 0.5%.
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Gerry,
    0.5% salt means that 5kg per 1000 liters of water......... ppm.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • jrwtanjrwtan July 2012
    Posts: 20
    hello si fu & tai ko
    would really need your effort and help, i.m taking care of a friends koi pond, roughly around 30ton, and the fishes are really sick about 6 is in a QT tank right now with S1 and salt, showing fin rot, and red scales & bloated stomach we have given them mild antibiotic jab, well the rest, in the main pond show sign of minor fin rot/fin got hole and red scales, have pump up the salt .11%

    question is where can i a get the kenkano from ? which shops are holding it?
    already tried the shop near atarikoi but have to make appointment, when does it open?
    whats the amount to use for a 30 ton pond?
    how long can i leave the meds in the pond?
    if I flush 40% of the pond to reduce the salt to say .09% will then kenkano still work or will the fish be over stess with the meds and water change?

    p.s i.m worried cos 1 fish already died 2 days ago

    thanks

  • gosankekoigosankekoi July 2012
    Posts: 336
    Hi jrwtan

    Currently Yamakoshi and our shop are carrying this product. For your information, our shop is open daily from 10am to 6pm. We are located @ Jln Desa Utama, Tmn Desa. ( near Atarikoi, Tmn Desa.)Right now, our shop is closed If you really need it urgent, pls call our boss Raymond @0123729978 for arrangement.

    For medication wise, we leave to capt or sale manager to give more clear advice.

    Regards
    gosanke koi crew
  • jrwtanjrwtan July 2012
    Posts: 20
    thanks will ask a friend to drop by tomorrow ... wont be free thanks for your prompt reply .. thank you
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro jrwtn,
    Definitely an outbreak of bacteria infection........Do not wait too long........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • jrwtanjrwtan July 2012
    Posts: 20
    thanks shukri will have to drop by one of the shops to get it, thanks man
  • gerrygerry July 2012
    Posts: 777
    Hi Bros,

    Just checked on my fishes again..... still flashing la.... only slightly better from yesterday...

    I will backwash and dose the pond again later and see how tomoro....

    Should I stop the Kenkona treatment and try salt instead? If yes, then tomoro need to buy salt adi....
  • idrisidris July 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    If the salt level is less than 0.1% it will be safe to used kenkona..
  • ikankoikauikankoikau July 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Sis Gerry,
    You can eithet wait for the cycle of 3 days or carry out 20-30% water change before going for second dose. Honestly you should wait for Kenkona to take effect. I have certainly experienced the same problem. Normally for normal flashing or parking(not due to water problem or new addition), you can see the result in a day or two. Some just a few hours. For new addition, its a bit sticky and some might take single or second dosage.

  • jrwtanjrwtan July 2012
    Posts: 20
    need help urgent please.
    just bought a btl of kenkona koi, and heres the confusing part the shopkeeper told me to use only 16ml for a 30ton pond, well in the forum its saying 300ml so which do i follow ??? and whats is the acceptable dose of salt ???? the shop keep its saying 0% of salt like that i would have to empty the pond wash it and restart the filter
    thanks
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro jrwtan,
    It is written on the bottle, 50ml for 3000 liters, so 500ml for 30,000 liters i.e. 30 ton.

    My pond is 30 ton so I have used on a few occasions already 500 ml per dosage.

    What I am saying here is correct. What the shop keeper or what you have said is not......

    On the container, it says no more than 0.12% salt..........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-07-10 06:09:29 pm
  • jrwtanjrwtan July 2012
    Posts: 20
    thanks shurkri ... i scared cos its not my fish i dont have any kois its my friend fish and his oversea right now and i dont know anything about koi
  • jrwtanjrwtan July 2012
    Posts: 20
    plus the shopkeeper told me that if i do it wrong it will kill all the fish
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro jrwtn,
    And to confirm again, I have used 500ml per dosage for my 30 ton pond. Since Formaldehyde is one of the ingredient, please ensure that the salt level is no more than 0.12%. If it is 0 then the better.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • jrwtanjrwtan July 2012
    Posts: 20
    thanks alot shukri you been a great help
  • pandaipandai July 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Bro jrwtan,

    As advised by the founder of Kenkona Koi himself, preferably try not to put the entire dose all in one go. Put half of the dose first and then watch the fish behaviour. If they started surfacing and gulping for air, then wait a while longer. Put second half of the dose some 15 to 30 mins later. Increase aeration throughout treatment period and stop feeding.
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/

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