My pond been attack by gill disease!!
  • idrisidris March 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    My 2.5ton pond suddenly been attack by gill disease..yesterday my tanco sanke 59cm dies...this morning my koromo and now my kohaku tinggal nyawa2 ikan....as per advice from my sifu I now change 50% water, lower down the salt level to use medicine created by him....so now just wait and see..I just hope I have some fish to be put inside my 20ton pond once completed..if not it will be fill with tilapia first...hehehe...will update on the picture later....
  • kominatokominato March 2012
    Posts: 408
    Must be very stressful. Hope for the best.
  • MikeMike March 2012
    Posts: 346
    Gosh ... any new comer to your pond recently ?
  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Idris, get bros Borman or Yu Jian to assist you with your problem/s. Why did you say it was a gill disease?
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • idrisidris March 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Mike...no new comer...

    Kominato...tx bro...

    Bang shukri...,captain identified it through my email to him..with picture of course...then just now he drop by and done some "CSI" at the victim body and confirm it...basically I just lost my kohaku right before I able to add medicine provide by captain...

    Now I already change 50% water, salt level is 0.5%....and add his medicine...no splashing spotted at the moment...this gave me some time to add another blower to my 2.5ton as advice by captain...I will have 2 blower supplying 110lit/min to gave as much air as possible...well I lost few good kois in this two days but this teach me a lesson not to overstock the pond...on the way to correct my mistake I pay high price...
  • idrisidris March 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Bang shukri, I can send you the picture via my blackberry..you can gave me ur email...we can share on this...now I left 6 kois in my pond...58cm doitsu Karashi, 50cm cagoi, 33cm Showa, 45cm gin Showa, 42cm shushui, and my platinum ogon.....Hope some will survive.....
  • idrisidris March 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Opsss typo error..salt level is 0.05%
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Nitrite might have spiked. Is there a cure for gill damage caused by nitrite poisoning?
  • farikfarik March 2012
    Posts: 317
    Bang Idris,
    Hope everything will turn out ok....capt ada... that's why pelan2 kayuh bang...hopefully no more yg belly up.

  • idrisidris March 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Bro farik..tu la pasal...hobby ni Memang Kena cool jek..x pe this is good lesson learn...

    BRO H, nitrite is 0.25 last I checked before I put s1...
  • idrisidris March 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Now all fish stay below only with two 110lit/min air ump running...no splashing spotted for the last hour...hopefully ok...
  • ikankoikauikankoikau March 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    I had the same problem 2 years back when I got back from a flight. Lost 7 kois(40-65cm). A few died infront of my eyes. Not much of external indication but you can spot bacteria/fungus attack at the gills and the colour were turning to brown which indicated failure to receive or absorb oxygen.

    Even after I added Blagdon Anti Ulcer, 4 more died but the rest survived. Once proper medication is used, it's up to the kois to survive thru this stressful period of recovery. On our part, just provide the best water quality and aeration for our beloved kois.

    We did net one of the koi just now(a shusui) for inspection. According to bro Idris, almost all his kois were having the same gills problem. It didn't look good as all bad symptoms were present such as red vain, cloudy eyes, red fins esp at the base, body injury(maybe due to flashing), absent of protecting slime and gill rotting which has changed colour. Personally, I am very worried for this shusui. Other kois could have more less similar problems but it was more obvious on non scale koi.

    In fact yesterday we realised something was not right while building bro Idris's pond. But the salt level was high and S1 was the only medication that available and can be mixed with salt. Since Ammonia and nitrite were present, I have adviced bro Idris to carry out partial water change. Once ammonia wes zero, then only S1 was added. As for last night, he said the kois were much better but this afternoon everything broke lose again.

    I hope all bro Idris' kois will recover. I told him to expect the worst before recovery. My combo medication has been tested and showing very good result for many health problems but not specifically tested on Bacteria Gill Disease. Hopefully good result will come out from bro Idris' kois.
    Post edited by ikankoikau at 2012-03-05 04:49:56 am
  • idrisidris March 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Thanks capt for ur time by coming to help me this afternoon...if some fish survive I Blanja u makan later but if not we will having shushui 3 rasa and karashis steam....hahahahh...
  • ikankoikauikankoikau March 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Hahaha.... No prob bro.
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    I do hope Bro Idris kois would recover as well. As hobbyist we share the pain when we read some unfortunate incident like this as we are reminded of the kois that we have lost in the past.

    BGD from what ive read before is contagious and leads to permanent gill scarring. Recovery will be long process.
  • lautslauts March 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Idris , Capt,

    With Gill Disease i suggest don't use salt. Reason is salt will cause the gills to produce excessive mucus hence difficult to koi to breathe also salt lowers the DO. Anti ulcer is good i think it has benzalkonium chloride , used to clear gills . Provide as much O2 as possible, this is the key to koi survival chance. I would just let a pump spray direct into pond to max out aeration for now. Antiulcer will clear some bacterias in gill and use benz. chloride to wash the gills. Will take a week to clear , dead gills will turn white and break off , it will not grow back.

    I think the gills was already damaged and weaken giving opportunistic bacterias chance to attack. THe presence of nitrite makes things worse. Likely cause of gill damage is gill /skin fluke. Did any kois flash like there is something at the gill/head area ? Keep an eye on this . Best of luck.

    ts

  • idrisidris March 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Hmmm..I do hope it recover...money spend for the kois is not my worries, but sadness bcoz fail to provide our kois the best home and environment under our care...my house like now is like mini zoo..having tilapia pond, cat, rabbit, chicken..but koi pond is different level! Huhu...but hold this drama make me learn fast...maybe it destined that I learn the hard way...Btw capt, the for lending me kois for dummies book....hehe...
  • ikankoikauikankoikau March 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro Lau,
    Initially there was no indication of gill problem. Since bro Idris salt his new pond to offset for the nitrite, S1 was the safest. Last nite, bro Idris saw some improvement but it was temporary. When his koi died this morning, he emailed me photo. Then I realised something more serious had happened and that was why I got to drop by to his house.

    S1 and salt can never cure Bac Gill Disease. Like what you have said, salt will reduce DO significantly. It will make matter worst as the koi needs as much aeration as possible to recover from BGD. Many medications sold are not able to deal with BGD except for Anti Ulcer Blagdon. However this medication is expensive esp to treat big pond.

    Bro Idris pond is a bit tricky as New Pond Syndrome is only at phase 2. Both ammonia and nitrite still present. That's why I hv to ask him to lower down the salt level to treat the BGD first or else he might lose all his kois.

    Bro HDCu,

    You are right, BGD is very contagious. Whole pond can easily get affected. Quick steps taken for recovery is very important. Aeration and correct medication is the key to it.

    Bro Idris,
    There are many koi related books. I misplace many of it. Coinci it did mention about BGD. Quite easy to understand. Hope your kois will recover well tomorrow.
    Post edited by ikankoikau at 2012-03-05 06:22:54 am
  • NeliNeli March 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    I have fry...and my fry developed columnaris...which is also a similar bacterial disease...
    I dont have any medication for Koi here, so I am trying all the time new things...
    I got from the pharmacy an AB mixture for cows and chickens, broad spectrum AB, comes in a pct of 200g called Doxin-200.
    I used it for treatment of the whole pond...and all my fry recovered...
    Just an idea, maybe someone would like to try it...It is very cheap, and it is broad spectrum (acts on both gram positive and gram negative bacteria).
    For heavy bacterial infections I use kanamycine at 750 mg/liter, as a bath for two hours in well aerated container...It is fantastic. I do 3-5 treatments every other day with it.
    This is just my personal experience. The dose for the kanamycine I got from the internet...for doxin I calculated/correlated it to other antibiotics...Be careful with kanamycine, very easy to overdose with it and cause kidney failure when used as injection.
  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Borman, now is the time to bring out your own brewed concoction....... :-D
    I am quite sure that it will work.......in the USA, your concoction is similar to Proform C.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Dear Neli, thanks for sharing. I have not tried Doxin myself, but will try it the next time.
    I have seen or heard about columnaris infection here in my area for a while...... Good that your fries have recovered....
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • NeliNeli March 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    I have tried it ones only...so maybe if more people try it...it is affordable and easy to use, then We can all benefit from it.
    But it contains two well known antibiotics, so I think it will be good for most bacterial infections...
    I dont think it has been used on Koi yet...but that does not make much difference.
    Here is what they say about it:

    Doxin-200 WS
    Powder for oral administration

    Description
    The combination of tylosin and doxycycline acts additively. Doxycycline belongs to the group of tetracyclines and acts bacteriostatically against many Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria like Bordetella, Campylobacter, E. coli, Haemophilus, Pasteurella, Salmonella, Staphylococcus and Streptococcus spp. Doxycycline is also active against Chlamydia, Mycoplasma and Rickettsia spp. The action of doxycycline is based on inhibition of bacterial protein synthesis. Doxycycline has great affinity towards the lungs and is therefore especially useful for treatment of bacterial respiratory infections. Tylosin is a macrolide antibiotic with bacteriostatic action against mainly Gram-positive bacteria like Campylobacter, Mycoplasma, Pasteurella, Staphylococcus, Streptococcus and Treponema spp.
    Composition
    Contains per gram powder:
    Doxycycline hyclate 100 mg.
    Tylosin tartrate 100 mg.
    Carrier ad 1 g.
    Indications
    Gastrointestinal and respiratory infections caused by tylosin and doxycycline sensitive micro-organisms like Bordetella, Campylobacter, Chlamydia, E. coli, Haemophilus, Mycoplasma, Pasteurella, Rickettsia, Salmonella, Staphylococcus, Streptococcus and Treponema spp. in calves, goats, poultry, sheep and swine.
    Contra indications
    Hypersensitivity to tetracyclines and/or tylosin.
    Administration to animals with a seriously impaired hepatic function.
    Concurrent administration of penicillines, cephalosporines, quinolones and cycloserine.
    Administration to animals with an active microbial digestion.
    Side effects
    Discoloration of teeth in young animals.
    Hypersensitivity reactions.
    Diarrhoea can occur.
    Dosage
    For oral administration:
    Calves, goats and sheep : Twice daily, 5 gram per 100 kg body weight for 3 - 5 days.
    Poultry and swine : 1 kg per 1000 - 2000 litre drinking water for 3 - 5 days.


    Note: for pre-ruminant calves, lambs and kids only.
    Withdrawal times
    - For meat:
    Calves, goats and sheep : 14 days.
    Swine : 8 days.
    Poultry : 7 days.
    Warning
    Keep out of reach of children.
    Packing
    Sachet of 100 gram and jar of 500 & 1000 gram.
    Previous product
    Next product



    Animal Health GMP-Producer and supplier of veterinary products, supplies, pharmaceuticals, drugs and medicines in the Netherlands (Holland, Europe)

    This is from link:
    http://www.interchemie.com/water-soluble-powders/doxin-200-ws.html
  • NeliNeli March 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    It costs 7 USD for 200 gram...and to treat the pond (i Reduced the water) I used very little...
    I have the dose need to look in my notes for it.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau March 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro Shukri,
    Thanks for the info. At this stage, preparation has been done for introduction during the Shinkokai. Many test results have come out positively. One of the dealer is currently testing on all symptoms and diseases that they can get from their own kois and their client are having. Very good result so far. I think it won't be long for hobbyist to get further info.

    Sis Neli,
    You have a very good knowledge on the medication. Maybe due to the medication for koi is restricted in your country, you have no choice but to formulate it yourself. I think you must be the best koi doctor in your country (Y). For those antibiotic, how do you get the dosage right when it was used for normal farming rather than aquatic animal? For antibiotic bath, can the kois get immune just like improper practice of injection?

    Regards. Btw, always smile watching your move in the video. Without knowing the meaning, the words kind of cute. :-D
  • idrisidris March 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    As of this morning 730 am, all koi still breathing..hopefully good progress..
  • adleeadlee March 2012
    Posts: 115
    hopefully ur koi will recover bro idris.. best of luck!
  • idrisidris March 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    tq bro adlee....
  • MikeMike March 2012
    Posts: 346
    Hi Idris, glad to know that the rest of the koi survive ... (Y)
    Whatever dont kill you will only makes you stronger ...
  • idrisidris March 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Tx bro mike......
  • NeliNeli March 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    Darling ikankoikau,
    I studied 5 years vet medicine, worked in a village (in charge of 3 large villages, covering a big area) medicating...(I am not saying curing) all kind of animals for 9 month...and then run away...went and did engineering and later post graduate in Belgium...So I dont have much experience and did not learn much about fish....but have a basic knowledge of medications and treatment...
    Remember, AB are the same for humans, animals and fish...they affect the bacteria...and dont care where it is..human or fish...
    Broad spectrum are better for me, since I dont have where to make the sensitivity test, or rather I am lazy to do it.
    Any antibiotic AB if not used properly can cause the bacteria to become resistant.
    Some of the causes for becoming resistant are:
    used for a short time, (not a complete course of AB) causes only some bacteria to be killed, and the remaining one...if subjected to the same AB under similar conditions many times can become resistant.
    Improper dosage (less) can cause resistance too.Some other things too...
    If the AB dont kill the bacteria for what ever reason, chances are over a period of time can make the bacteria resistant.
    How I calculate the dosage is:
    I would get a known dose for Koi in this case oral, for a known AB...then I will find the dose for it for cow...chicken...what ever, then I will see what is the ration between Koi and cow...(for example) and apply it to the other AB.
    For example...Kanamycine is used:
    orally 20mg/kg
    intramuscular 20mg/kg
    bath: 750mg/liter
    so the ratio between oral and bath is 1:37.5=(20:750)
    if U look at most AB that is the ratio.
    If U dont know the oral/injectable dose for an antibiotic...
    Check the ratio of one known (for large animals and Koi) AB and calculate through that ratio...for Koi ones U know the dose for large animals...
    Like this:
    AB1 U know the dose for large animal (DLA1) and U know the dose for koi (DK1)
    AB2 U only know the dose for large animals(DLA2), and want to know the dose for KOI (DK2)...
    This is the formula :
    DLA1/DLA2=DK1/DK2
    so dose Koi 2 (DK2)=DK1 *DLA2/DLA1
    So this is how I calculate the dose for Unknown AB and ratio between oral and bath dose.
    I hope I explained it well...
    Post edited by Neli at 2012-03-07 03:58:30 am
  • ikankoikauikankoikau March 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Thanks Sis Neli. Crystal clear :-D So far I have used same AB as for human. Normally the dosageis base on weight. So I used the same method for koi which is weight factor. But for AB, I'm not familiar. The variation between AB dosage may be different. For example, Lycomysin and Ciprobay have different dosage. So I will go for human to fish weight ratio to use it.

    Have not tried the AB bath before but it's good to know. Thanks sis.

    Regards
  • idrisidris March 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Update on my fish...all well...no casualty yet...hail to kenkona koi!!!
  • NeliNeli March 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    U are welcome. The dose for humans is normally around 25% LESS THAN FOR kOI, That is intramuscular....
  • NeliNeli March 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    Good to hear Bro Idris...Wish U all the best!
  • ikankoikauikankoikau March 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Me too bro Idris. I think you know how I must have felt waiting for your update :-D Thank God.

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