Bakki or Tricker system
  • MikeMike February 2012
    Posts: 346
    Guys, it is for sure that these system do improve the water quality but how do one know that the system is working ?
    Mind my mere knowledge and experience for this question.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] February 2012
    Posts: 0
    Hai Mike,

    Both work well but really different style and flow.both work great.what i know that bakki really do well on water quality.it is just us hobbyist to insured that it works.even BS work well but we still do WC just to make sure our kois have the best water quality.

    right me if i wrong on this bros...
  • grinkz01grinkz01 February 2012
    Posts: 530
    Bakki shower is actually works based on trickle system....bigger contact area with fresh air makes bacteria live happily, thus we might expect to get better nitrification process. Plus you will have longer retention time for water contact with air if you are using bakki shower system. This means more oxygen bring in to your pond.
  • MikeMike February 2012
    Posts: 346
    Hi Ronnie and Grinkz01,

    Thank you for your input and feedback. I do understand the purpose and mechanism of Bakki/Trickle tower system but how do we know that the system is working in improving our pond water eg any test can be carry out or any test kit that we can buy off the shelf to do our own testing.
  • grinkz01grinkz01 February 2012
    Posts: 530
    Hi Mike, sorry maybe I miss understood your concern. I use Bakki Shower but never really measure if it is work...LoL....
    But I think you may go to lab and ask for DO measurement. Also need to check ammonia, nitrate and nitrit level. All of those measurement must be made before and after BS activated.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] February 2012
    Posts: 0
    bros,

    let it work for a few months...if you have any other filtration,shut it down.just use BS.after few months or more.test the water with normal tester for DO,n3,n2,etc.but withing those months,check you kois daily and the water quality.if you have QT is much more better to test the results and safe to you kois.cheer...
  • wongyengwongyeng February 2012
    Posts: 238
    May I know the frequency of Water Change when you have installed your Bakki system ?
  • grinkz01grinkz01 February 2012
    Posts: 530
    no specific different for water change by install/not install bakki. I change water daily basis at appr. 5% of total volume. Some people are recommend to have 10% fresh water introduced in the pond, daily basis.
  • DK76DK76 February 2012
    Posts: 69
    Hi guys, any rough idea or knowledge of what BS system will help in terms of pond filtration as in %?e.g current filter size is 10% of total pond volume so will BS help in getting the % up?
  • MikeMike February 2012
    Posts: 346
    DK76, good question ...
  • boykoiboykoi February 2012
    Posts: 186
    i have a 32 ton concrete pond at home. i had my pond done 3months ago,and my bakki a month later. one thing im sure about the benefits is, water temperature is cooler. My tap water is at 29 deg c,before bakki my pond water is at 27-28 deg c. after finishing my bakki,im enjoying 25-26deg c in my semi outdoor pond.i have an indoor FG tank that reads at 28deg c which has no bakki.so my outdoor concrete pond with bakki is actually cooler than my indoor tank.whats more,nitrites and nitrates are at almost 0 just after 3 weeks of my new filter.some say a cycle takes at least 6 weeks
    Post edited by boykoi at 2012-02-19 04:54:45 pm
  • DK76DK76 February 2012
    Posts: 69
    Thanks for sharing boykoi.So as your experiences,BS will definitely helps in adding more good filtration % with co-existing filter especially for those with undersize filteration system.
  • boykoiboykoi February 2012
    Posts: 186
    yes it really does.actually it was in this forum that i was convinced to have all my returns through a bakki shower.even dropping just 1 deg c is already woth the setup.its not much to me for having a bakki as a bio filter as i already have k1 media for that. but the spaces that i have at 10" apart from a 2 tray setup helps more air water contact time which is key in making water cooler and more oxygenation
  • MikeMike February 2012
    Posts: 346
    Boykoi, sorry for my ignorance as I am a newbie, a Bakki works better when each tray is further away from the lower next in-line ? If that is so, any idea the minimum clearance that is needed. I do plan to have a Bakki system in the pipe line but space is my main constrain as i intend to put it under the stair case. ( Minister of home is gonna make a lot of NOISE ...
  • boykoiboykoi February 2012
    Posts: 186
    yes.i am using a shopcart tray that is 12"in height.i only use one on top another one in a 2 row arrangement. the key is,that media i used which is similar to bioballs occupy ony 4" of the tray,so that makes an 8"difference for water to fallout one tray to the next,then unto the pond surface.ive read at the old malaysian forum someone who has aTDO meter did experiments on his bakki in varying space heights and came out with an 8"minimum conclusion.i remember it also noted that anything lower than 8" wouldnt have any impact on rising TDO levels so thats why i followed this on my setup.i dont have any TDO meter to prove this, but my water thermometer has indeed consistently reads 25-26deg c of which i am very happy with. Beni on some kois that i previously kept indoors has indeed appear deeper and thicker than when i had them indoors on my FG setup...just try it out bro, no harm trying.make a 3 tray setup which is much better than my2 tray setup
  • wongyengwongyeng February 2012
    Posts: 238
    @Mike : Your bakki will probably be noisier than the minister at home :D
    Post edited by wongyeng at 2012-02-22 04:46:07 am
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Mike, if noise is yr concerned use trickle instead. The noise fr bakki is like disco with full volume blasting inside a house or a typical chinese restorant ppl eat and talk that kind of noise you hear. Even on open garden space the noise is still loud, very loud.

    You also save on space (its height) with trickle as there is no need to have space between trays and water spilling. Though there is no space between trays, with a properly design trickle system, you can get to suck in lot of air. If you are interested I dont mind to draw how it works.

    To further reduce the noise of water trickling you can sealed up the system with styrofoam.

    Also, unlike BS, trickle system require you to adjust the flow rate. High flow does not mean better. In fact it has to be slow flow at 1/4 or less of BS flow.

    As you can see with reduced height and flow you save on the energy to pump the water up to its top. Again with lower flow rate you get less noise.
  • pslongpslong May 2012
    Posts: 288
    Stevie,

    I will be interested in a drawing and suggestions on the construction material needed, really appreciate it :)
  • MikeMike May 2012
    Posts: 346
    Hi Stevie,

    Yes, I cant be agree more with you about the noise that a BS will produce, not to mentioned if its indoor.

    About the TT, a drawing will help as a picture says a thousand words.

    Thanks in advance.
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Hi PSLong,

    before i start let be clear, I am not a science person as to how the enriched oxygen and bateria works and helps in bio filtration reducing toxic waste from the system. But it works both my marine aquarium many yrs ago and now my pond. The idea is to introduce air, lots of air into water. With lots of air the highly saturated water will "push" (expel) the gases produced by the bacteria, that is dissolved in the water, out of the water. What are those gases i dont know but it has to be something no good. You see bacteria consume oxygen and it has to convert the oxygen into something else. Like us we breath in oxygen and give out CO2. Like fish breath in oxygen that is dissolved in water and we dont see bubble of CO2 coming out of their mouth. This is besides giving the bacteria a lot of oxygen to function and to do its work.

    Ok, now the concept and the idea is simple you already know to introduce lot of air into the water. To do that the inlet pipe has to be smaller than the outlet pipe so that the bigger pipe with more opening area allow air to get in not just water and mixup. The fact is it does not matter how big the inlet pipe is but the outlet pipe has to be able to accommodate the same volume of water that came in and have room for air to go in as well by force, by suction with the work of gravity. That is why in trickle system you got to adjust the flow. Unlike BS you want to have high flow and the space between tray as far away as possible for longer period of air contact. In trickle filter (1) we get the water and air to be mixed at the intake and/or (2) allow air flow into the bio balls. I will explain both and how it is to be made.

    For this to work the best material to build the system is glass or acrylic for control of air intake and escape and the filter media bio balls. Too dense the media you will not get air to travel into the media. Also the system is very quiet you hardly hear any noise in your home if you use it for your aquarium.

    With this understanding we can now move to the design of the system. See pix and will explain in next post.
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6795/trickle design.jpg
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    For all glass system you have to have drawers for ease of maintenance and access to the inside. The drawers facilitate the inlet of air and for air to escape at selected areas intentionally.

    From the pix above you see a stop volve. This allows you to adjust the flow volume. At the inlet it does not matter if it is fully covered at the top or opened.

    Then the pre-filter to traps dirts if any from pump chamber. The pre-filter is hold by a drawer open from front. How to DIY a drawer? This will discuss if so required. The pre-filter has to have a gap between the bottom of the drawer so as to allow water to fall to the bottom water section without blockage. A mesh, plastic or metal, can be used to hold the pre-filter or you prefer you can use a layer of bioballs instead. The bottom of the drawer will have big holes for water to drip to the water section.

    At the water section water is to flow only via a pipe as shown, to its bottom section (the dirp tray). The pipe is best you use transparent plastic tube so you can see if it suck lot of air bubbles as the water flow. See next pix below the enlarge picture of the top portion of the system.
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6796/Top Section - trickle system design.jpg

    From this pix you see the tube is "L". And the length of the tube has to be at least 18 inches long before the elbow (L). The sole objective is to draw water and air for a good water/air mix at the point. 3 things to look at:

    1. The tube/pipe has to be large enugh (usually 1 inch pipe) to accommodate flow of incoming water volume and room for air to be suck in with the force of the water flow. Too big you dont get air to be suck in as much.
    2. The height of the tube/pipe the longer the better the greater gravity fall of water and drag air along with it.
    3. The L is to slow the flow so as the water will not empty directly to the drip plate without it it will not suck air as effective as it is. At the L if you can see an inch or 2 inches of water that's perfect! If you dont want an L you can fix a reducing valve to half inch or 3/4 inch pipe to slow down the fall of water at this bottom part of the pipe. But this is hard to achieve as easy as having a L pipe. The ideal is fast flow down, slow down for the mix to happen and fast flow out creating the suction.


    Where would the sucked air goes? they will escape via the drip tray drawer. The drip tray allows water to pass thru not air. If air has no way out the tube mixer will not suck air in due to higher pressure at the bottom (logically).

    Will continue...

    Any thing need clarification?
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    More details at the suction point see pix:
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6797/Trickle suction point.jpg
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Here is the final part PS Long,

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6798/Bottom Section - Trickle system design.jpg
    It works on the same principle. Water will be pull down by gravity pulling along with it the air to the pond where water goes to the pond air to the atmosphere.
    Fresh air will be suck from the drip tray drawer gaps and flow thru the bio balls, how about that? The top enriched the water with air the bottom suction sucking more fresh air to the flowing thru the bio balls!

    You can either have one of it, for the air, the top portion air/water mix or bottom air flow or both if you have the height. The bio ball section can be as high as you can afford the height.
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Hi Mike, Where r you? This supposed to be your thread. You cannot use BS inside the house bro. Noise and wet wet wet, already very wet with high humidity.
  • HDCuHDCu May 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    I think we have to define properly first what Bakki shower is. The term bakki was used by momotaro in connection with the use of bacteria house media. Without bacteria house it is just a shower filter. The main difference of using bacteria house in the bakki as compared to using lets say bioballs is the amount of surface area that BH can hold anaerobic and aerobic bacteria at the same time as compared to bioballs which will hold mostly aerobic bacteria. In marine aquarium, this is why bioballs in trickle or shower configuration are considered nitrate factory. The nitrite consuming bacteria populate bioballs and convert their waste to nitrates. On the other hand, BH and similar inert media grow aerobic bacteria on and near the surface of the media while it can hold also anaerobic bacteria population inside the structure of the BH where water will pass through it. Anaerobic bacteria population is controlled when water that showers the media unblocks the waste that may block the flow of water into the BH structure. If water pressure is just a trickle then one would need a prefilter so that there are not much waste blocking or settling on the surface of the media.

    , In conclusion... people generally think that those bacteria that deal with pollutants, are the only ones needed for Koi, but there are really countless strains that make up the pond eco-system. It is of paramount importance to get the balance of those aerobic, and anaerobic bacterias right, if you want to make Koi blossom and grow healthily, rather than just simply keeping them alive.-- according to Momotaro.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-05-19 07:17:15 pm
  • MikeMike May 2012
    Posts: 346
    Hi Steve,

    Thanks for the in-depth explanation of the system and schematics. There is a few things that I do not understand :-

    1) If the inlet water is coming from the pump chamber (clean water), does this means I can eliminate the pre-filtration part.

    2) Could you explain more of the mechanism of No.2 and 3

    3) From your Trickle suction point images, (Highlighted in red) The water level will go up and down. How do you know the water level fluctuation if normal PVC is used. Does it means we have to find transparent pipe for this section of piping.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6805/trickle design question.jpg
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Hi Mike, Look like you understand my explaination from the questions asked.

    Q1) If the inlet water is coming from the pump chamber (clean water), does this means I can eliminate the pre-filtration part.

    Ans1) Yes, you can do away with the pre-filter. With no pre-filter you save some height. Also you can have your inlet water spray to saturate the water with spray tube. There are many ways to build a spray tube. Can discuss later if so required.

    Q2) Could you explain more of the mechanism of No.2 and 3

    Ans2) I would like to leave mechanism No.2 to the last as it is a bit complicated. Mechanism No. 3 How does this distibute the water evenly on the drip plate is simple. The drip plate with even drip holes small enough not too large will distribute the water evenly by gravity naturally. Because the drip holes are small one section of it will not able to empty the incoming water and therefore the water flow to the whole area of the drip plate. If you can have one or 2 inches water level at the drip plate that will be good. Regardless of how small the holes, gravity will do its works. The small the holes the higher the water level and the greater the gravity force of water. Just make sure there is an inch of water level will do.

    By the way, the smaller the holes more likely it clogged and more maintenance work. To have maintenance free one way is to have larger holes further apart (or less number of holes).

    Q3) From your Trickle suction point images, (Highlighted in red) The water level will go up and down. How do you know the water level fluctuation if normal PVC is used. Does it means we have to find transparent pipe for this section of piping.

    Ans3) It provide you visual with transparent tube, if you can find one. But not necessary. With normal pipe you can still see if it works well when you see there are air bubbles coming out a lot of it together with the water from the end pipe. When it works well, even if the end pipe is submerged in the bottom section of the water, you can see air bubbles rushing out of the submerge pipe in the water.

    From the diagram you posted, No 4. Yes it is a drip plate or any other supporting plate or mesh so long it can hold the weight of the bio-balls + driping water.

    And the flow pipes both of it are hold by tank connectors, highlighted in blue colour.

    Finally your Q2, how air is sucked into the tube/pipe and how to build it (DIY). The is the work of venturi. If you understand how venturi works or how carburator works you will understand. I have to explain in my next post.
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Refers to diagram vitualise how carburetor and pond venturi work:

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6808/carburetor-venturi.jpg
    Post edited by Stevie at 2012-05-20 01:16:57 pm
  • ChengAunChengAun May 2012
    Posts: 925
    I always find my BS is a good filter. Either way, a trickle filter is also good.
    Be updated in the world of koi. Jangankan seperti "Koi di bawah bottom drain"
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    It goes like this.

    At the big cylinder/pipe due to its bigger size the flow is slow as compared to the narrow "neck" the smaller pipe the flow is faster, whereas the volume of flow at any point (big or narrow point) is the same. That is to say the the speed/velocity is greater at the neck. High velocity created lower pressure. The low pressure so low at a point the air from water surface get into the pipe and together with the flow of water flow into the other end pipe and created bubbles.
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Ok this you can visualise and you can experiment it with your home basin. Infact you have seen it day to day at home.
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6809/Basin venturi.jpg
    The water get sucked in becasue the basin itself is the big pipe and the drain pipe is the narrow neck/pipe. Due to the high velocity (the speed of the drain pipe flow) with low pressure the air get sucked in.

    You also know or have seen and experience that when the water is too high this will not happened. why? the drain pipe is too small for that height. In our TT it explains why you cannot have too small a pipe. Again you cannot have too big a pipe. When the pipe is too big and the incoming is too low it is just like Niagara falls where the water just fall and hit the water at the bottom. But do not be too worry about pipe size if venturi happens. You can always adjust the flow of incoming water from pump. that is why you have to have a stop valve.
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Ok Mike, now it make easy to explain your question No 2 in my next post.
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Mike, before I continue the final part, allow me to respond to HDCu's contribution.

    Cheng Aun, Your BS if not BH then it is no difference from TT as HDCu pointed out you got no anaerobic bateria to take care of nitrate.

    I think BH does do its job compare to other media so is bioball as pointed out. The point to remove nitrate is to complete the full nitrogen cycle and if this can be achieved then there is no need for water change. The fact is everyone still change water often means the BH cannot cope with its job to removed nirate completely or the need to change water is not only about nirate but also to clear debris and waste accumulated and etc.

    When there is a need to change water then BH is not absolutely necessary in our set up but an option. nitrate is not so toxin as koi and fish can tolerate high content of nitrate as compared to nitrite and the deadly ammonia. BH as compared to most other media draps debris and get clogged and more maintenance.

    Beside BH, there are ways to remove nitrate. As said water change the most effective way and plants to complete the nitrogen cycle. We may want to have a small section sealed away from koi eating them. And of course algae.

    When there are too much of algae we know the nitrate level is high, time to change more water. when they are not as much save water. See, one point over BH.

    You see it is good to have pond exposed to sun. (sorry Mike but you will not have green water problem, a plus!) but not rain. As hobbyist we try to mimic nature and waste not natural resources like water.

    I would say good to have BH than just BS and you can have BH in the TT, I dont know if it works but why not? Just make sure it is between bio balls and distributed evenly among bio balls. And expose the pond to sun does good than bad. My pond is expose to sun and rain and I have clear water without the need for a UV. I think because the algae and plants contributing to it. I just cannot cover the pond from rain. Pergola with glass top ???
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6821/TT Q2.jpg

    After understand how venturi works there is no worry what pipe size you use because you have a stop valve to adjust the flow volume. Usually 1 inch pipe. If you use 1 inch pipe the bottom section of the pipe has to be the same size, i.e. 1 inch. because you only have one stop valve to adjust water volume. So there is no question if there is venturi effect with the stop valve. what works for the top should work for the bottom when most thing are the same, right?

    The venturi ideally should be one or 2 inches before it hit the bottom L where the air and water getting good mix. If you have transparent pipe then you should be able to use the stop valve to adjust where you want and think best to have the venturi happen at which height.

    The next thing is you do not want the venturi effect too high that the flow get slow and bubbles try to goes up. Now you understand why it should happen at the bottom 1 to 2 inches fr bottom. That will give a good suck of the air/water to the drip plate.

    The L is to prevent the water/air mix hit directly to the drip plate. Not worrying it breaks the drip plate but to allow more air/water contact time as it flow along the L pipe. Without the L (a stop to slow down) venturi point is hard to adjust to the desire level/point. Also when the air/water hit the bottom L is create turbulences like Niagara water falls. You got venturi + falls. Also the need for L is the venturi effect can go up and can go down due to suction or flow of water emptying, you therefore need longer length making sure the venturi does not fall below the end of the pipe (when it has no L) and fall straight to the dirp plate and no venturi at all.

    As the water travel along the bottom part of the L pipe as said more time mix before falling onto the drip plate.

    Now the L question. How long and what size. The end of the pipe should it deep into the water.

    The longer the better for air/water contact but too long it slow the flow. Slower flow mean lesser venturi effect and the water and air seperated instead of in turbulent stage inside the L pipe.

    The size of the pipe L should be same as the intake pipe above so that it carry full volume of water+air and have good sucking effect as it fall to the drip plate. (You dont see carburetor has bigger or smaller between the venturi.) Smaller pipe the pipe cannot carry full load of water + air and air get reisisted and try to reverse. Too big pipe the water and air mixed get seperated and lost suction power.

    It does not matter if the end of the L pipe get dip into the water. If it does you can see clearer the effect of the mixed. Right mix is when there are many small bubbles, alot of it. Big bubble means the water/air have been in the pipe too long or the pipe is too big as explain above.

    What should be done is never glue the L pipe. It won't come off if you are using PVC joint and pipe.

    Hope that clears your Qs. Any more?

    Cheers
    Post edited by Stevie at 2012-05-20 03:28:01 pm
    Attachments
    TT Q2.jpg 36K
  • ChengAunChengAun May 2012
    Posts: 925
    Uncle Stevie,
    My BS has only Momotaro BH.
    Be updated in the world of koi. Jangankan seperti "Koi di bawah bottom drain"
  • MikeMike May 2012
    Posts: 346
    Steve,

    I think I got it. I have test built it in my FGT return and viola, a free aerator. Will post the vid of it in action later.

    Thanks Steve.
  • HDCuHDCu May 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    bro Mike,

    Your aerator gives out very big bubbles which does not make it any better than just putting the return pipe above or on surface of wate level
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    I have not seen the video as yet.

    The effect of venturi is better (more air over water and smaller bubbles) when it is placed horizontally just above water surface. Like this pix below: Simply because (1) there is a smooth one directional flow of water and air. (2) the depth is shallow where the venturi point has such low pressure that air from surface get in in large volume. Putting it deeper venturi will not happen (assuming all things remained the same) just like in a basin where the water level is too high.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6828/carburetor-venturi.jpg

    As compare to vertical, the air resists the flow against the current trying to float due to its far different lighter weight over water. That is why you need an elbow (L) to carry on its effect and the venturi should be at the lower part of the vertical pipe.

    The point I like to make here is the venturi construction of this (vertical fall) is meant for TT. If your intention is to introduce air into water there are many ways to achieve it. A simple water return hitting water surface give you similar result.

    Regardless small or big bubble it does not matter much in TT for the bottom vernturi where the objective is to suck as much air into the bioballs chamber as possible especially so for a big TT where getting air to its centre middle point is difficult if not impossible. That also explains why BS trays are rectangular instead of squares. You can forget about how to get air travelling to the middle of BS other than the help of oxygenated falling water. Water not air can travel to its middle.

    One thing that I did not mention is the length of the pipe, longer the vertical pipe the better. Longer mean greater gravity and greater suction power allows you to use bigger pipe size too.

    The other thing is salt water produces more tiny air bubbles easily. And not forgetting if your water is dirty and lots of dissolved substances more tiny air bubbles can be produced. Not all water are the same.

    So Mike you can do more experiment and play with your FGT to achieve best result and viola (handshake) glad to know you got it =D> my effort is not lost :)
    Post edited by Stevie at 2012-05-21 09:59:41 am
  • MikeMike May 2012
    Posts: 346
    Hi HDCu, Steve.

    Yes, I do notice the bubbles is a tad big and inconsistent flow. Still learning on how to improvise and improve it. Good heads up Steve, on the venturi will work better if its horizontal instead of vertical. Will camp at my back yard and crank some brain juice out this weekend, I love this kind of stuff (rock) . A vid will follow on the progress to share and learn.

    Cheers
  • pslongpslong May 2012
    Posts: 288
    Steve,

    Great stuff.... Did you built it up by yourself? I am a terrible At DIY :-(
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    YES. Not only this, I even built my own pond.

    There are trial and error before reaching a better solution is what DIY is all about, like what Mike is trying to do now. The idea, the concept, the theory is there but you need to build a sample or prototype for something new before going into the real thing.

    If you think you are bad at DIY it is only in your mind. You got to pick up the tools, buy the materials and do it. If it fails to work little is lost. You gained the experience. The material is cheap, you loose only time but gain the confidence. How about you now saying I can DIY instead of I am a terrible at DIY. A new confident you money cant buy.

    When you are confident then you go for big project. Big project is not too big to handle. A big project is many small projects into one, module by module. By dividing it into small modules this is how we can manage and do big project. We cannot bite and eat a cow or even kill a cow like tigers. We have tools, we pick the tools kill and cut and eat. I cannot kill a cow or even know how to cut but if I want to do it and if I pick up the tools I can, not only the cow but the tiger as well. Hahaha no la I only know how to eat not kill just a lousy anology.
  • MikeMike May 2012
    Posts: 346
    Sorry for the delay guys, some domestic matters need to be settle.

    Steve, yes. DIY is all about prototype and T&E. Here is a mod version as per your advice.

    http://youtu.be/xsxkY9fOoUA

    The amount of air that is suck in can be control with the stop valve. Will try to adjust the outlet to the bottom of the tank and see the outcome.
    Post edited by Mike at 2012-05-26 07:27:29 pm
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    When the outlet is lower at the bottom there will be less air due to higher water pressure at the depth.

    You can increase the air suction power by narrowing the venturi tube and the shorter the venturi tube the better.

    Curve flow will propel the flow smoothly with higher speed. Square will give the flow some break, disrupting the flow. Greater speed mean lower pressure at the venturi.

    The small the air intake pipe the better. the smaller intake pipe allow you to have shorter venturi and not disrupting the flow of water trying to go up and hit the other side of the air pipe and break the flow.

    All this can be seen in the carburater diagram (previously posted): 1. curve venturi, 2. short and 3. small petrol/gas intake.
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6877/venturi.JPG
    Post edited by Stevie at 2012-05-28 09:23:01 pm
    Attachments
    venturi.JPG 15K
  • MikeMike May 2012
    Posts: 346
    Steve, loud and clear (Y)
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Mike, use this pipe reducer for smoother flow.
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6884/pipe reducer.png
  • MikeMike May 2012
    Posts: 346
    Heh Steve, that is just what I have in mind. The step down is progressively narrow down.


    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6885/1.JPG

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6886/2.JPG
    Post edited by Mike at 2012-05-29 08:17:34 pm
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Great! (handshake) Great minds think alike (handshake) .

    Remember the smaller the air pipe the finer the bubbles and the better the mixed. Moreover, fine bubbles stay longer in the water and be pushed further. Just dont know how you can find one ready available to connect :-( You got to think of a way.
  • MikeMike May 2012
    Posts: 346
    Hi steve,

    Do you think this will do ... The air intake tube size is 5/16 "

    koianswers.com/discussion/download/6930/1.jpg
    Post edited by Mike at 2012-05-30 05:59:53 pm
    Attachments
    1.jpg 59K
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Hi Mike,

    It looks pretty good on the outside. But suspect the inside is not what we want. what is in the inside in that T junction (the venturi) that counts.

    The air valve/opening of the nipple on inside end is big and it makes no difference if the other side of the nipple is small or large on the outside. In this case the nipple/opening inside is big.

    See pic
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6939/female-hose-nipple-a.jpg
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Mike, It is easy to make comment but to find solution is a different story.

    Maybe instead of a T connection why not just drill the pipe and insert an airtube. Just dont know how to hold the airtube.
  • StevieStevie May 2012
    Posts: 323
    Hi Mike,

    This could be better
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6943/venturi air tube.jpg

    Get plastic air tube fitting, Cut one side of the tube fitting as show. Insert the fitting into the drilled hole. The cut face should face the outgoing flow, this will suck air with no blocking as it is not facing the flow force.

    The inserted fitting increase the suction due to making the area smaller (an added venturi). The un-cut face facing on coming flow. Also it is curve will not breaking the flow.

    If you get a metal airtube fittings, it is hard to cut with saw. Use metal file as show below. alluminium or copper or brass is easier to file than stainless steel.
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6944/file.png

    One problem. Dont know how you can secure or hold agian the airtube fitting against movement. Glue it ? Super glue? or heat the metal fitting and push it into the smaller drilled hole? Use plastic glue will come out due to constant water contact, I tried that before. Silicone glue? I think use fibregalss, available in hardware store. comes in two parts. One part fibre with softener (dissolve the fibre) and the other red colour paste which is a hardener. It is expensive. You can use it to glue anything, metal, plastic, concrete, etc.
    Post edited by Stevie at 2012-05-31 02:20:49 pm
  • MikeMike May 2012
    Posts: 346
    Hi Steve, thanks for the idea. I think I will go wit the brass tube fitting and cut it with a grinder, as for holding it in place, I will be able to get my hands on the fiberglass patch kit or i will try a plasticine type adhesive where you mixed two compound together and it will harden up strong. Will post the images later when i am off work and back to my usual lepak place ... Hardware store ...
    Post edited by Mike at 2012-05-31 02:57:19 pm
  • MikeMike May 2012
    Posts: 346
    Steve, Im gonna use this, its brass and 5/16".
    koianswers.com/discussion/download/6949/1.jpg

    As for how to glue it, i can use either two or maybe i'll try with epoxy first.
    koianswers.com/discussion/download/6950/2.jpg
    koianswers.com/discussion/download/6951/3.jpg
  • MikeMike May 2012
    Posts: 346
    First prototype done. I've use the normal plastic air hose connector before moving to others alternative. It is glued with epoxy glue. Will try it out when its dried.


    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6957/1.JPG
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6958/2.JPG
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6959/3.JPG
    Post edited by Mike at 2012-06-01 02:17:55 am
  • StevieStevie June 2012
    Posts: 323
    Look great :) It should work.

    BTW, what is the pipe size at the airtube? half inch (15mm)? The smaller size the better you know because bigger pipe size requires powerful pump to pump the volume of water for similar effect.

    Here 2 pictures from the net. The carburator design for car and the venturi design for water.

    The carb suction is very powerful as there are 4 cylinders per cycle sucking air and two at a same time so there is no problem in drawing the fuel.

    As for the water as you can see from the pic it has to be narrow. The water pump is not as powerful as in the carb as suction from the 4 cylinders by its work of pistons.
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6960/carb.png
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/6961/venturi design.png
    Post edited by Stevie at 2012-06-01 09:31:42 am
  • MikeMike June 2012
    Posts: 346
    Hi Steve, the size of the air tube is just a few mm. As for the pvc pipe size, yes it is 15mm. I am using 1/2" class 7 pvc pipe.
  • StevieStevie June 2012
    Posts: 323
    Hi Mike, Class 7! I wasn't thinking of that. It will certainly help a lot.
  • khongkhong June 2012
    Posts: 144
    Hi Stevie: welcome back! I thought you qucik from this forum after not seeing your post for few months. Thanks for the help in the past.

    Hi Mike: Looks like we have 2 DIY kings now - you and Stevie :-)

    Cheers!
  • MikeMike June 2012
    Posts: 346
    Hi Khong, its just my hobby to DIY stuff but mostly house deco like wall clock, table lamp, oil lamp, book shelf and such. There's still much to learn from Steve. So far the prototype seems to be working but its too dark to vdo it, will post up the result tumorow ya guys.
  • StevieStevie June 2012
    Posts: 323
    Hi Khong,

    Yeah, I disapeared from the forum for some months and great to know that you got your glass problem fixed. I was busy with my car and of course a little on the volatile stock market. My car got heated up due to thermostat failure. Instead of getting the thermostat changed my long time mechanic changed almost everything including the speedometer of which one of it show engine temp and I had to going from one mechanic to another. 4 all together and finally fedup with everything I changed the whole engine as I was told the gasket could not fit properly as the aluminium engine shell had bended. That was not the end of the story. The used "newer" engine internal parts were giving problem. Look like the former owner didnt bother to maintain and change engine oil. I then had to get back my old engine and swap all the internal parts. At the end I paid for an engine shell for a price of a used engine! And yet the story continued. The car get heated up again and this time I knew it got to do with the thermostat. But it was just changed not long ago. Trust no mechanic, I went to buy from a spare part shop and DIY. Taking out the few months old thermostat, OMG it was not genuine honda part! X( and yet the price I paid was 2 times what I paid for an original! Still, the car story had to continue. Paid someone going to JPJ to register new engine no. and that guy came back said all my car tint had to be taken down if not cannot get approved. What? that was V-kool. Yeah, but it was old, I was told. After JPJ, runing here and there for the car to be tinted. This is the world we are living in, great Malaysia!
    Post edited by Stevie at 2012-06-02 12:20:53 am
  • MikeMike June 2012
    Posts: 346
    Hi Steve, I am a grease monkey wannabe too. Cant say I know much about two or four wheels but I have my fair share. Do buzz me when an extra hand is needed. I feel you for what have happen.
  • MikeMike June 2012
    Posts: 346
    Guys, here's the vdo.

    http://youtu.be/qRj990mPRQY
  • StevieStevie June 2012
    Posts: 323
    It looks much forceful with more bubbles compared to the previous two.

    Mike, What you want to do with it actually?
  • MikeMike June 2012
    Posts: 346
    Steve,

    I will try using the brass connector and see what kind of effect it will produce.

    What I am trying to do is to have as much oxygen i can induce in my QT without any additional equipment (electronic).

  • HDCuHDCu June 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Mike,

    I can clearly see an Improvement but Im not convince that it is any better than just putting the pipe half submerge on the surface of water or even better connect a big shower outlet at the end to disperse the water. The reason is the QT tank is just shallow.

    If you really want to induce strong underwater oxygen. Get a low wattage wave pump and tape an airstone beneath the wave pump. As fine air is released by the airstone, it is then cavitated by the blades of the wave pump. You will immediately notice very small air bubble like champaigne. water circulation will increase while dissolved oxygen will increase immediately in a QT tank. The only drawback is the slight increase in power cost and some underwater noise that the kois would eventually get use to.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-06-04 08:23:08 pm
  • MikeMike June 2012
    Posts: 346
    Hi HSCu,

    Could you provide an image of the wave pump or recommend one so that I can try out. Thanks.
  • HDCuHDCu June 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Mike,

    I have been using the resun wavemaker 15000 with dc control for the past two years. I think you can google the picture. There are other brands of wavemakers that may be cheaper since it may have no control. The pump generates a maximum of 15000 at just 25 watts of power but on average it can consume only 15watts of power. The controls are not waterproof and should be kept as dry as possible. The wave maker should not get stuck especially if it sucks air bubbles.

    In a small FGT setup without bottom drain, i feel the wave maker can circulate the water better than airstones while allowing you to reduce the number of airstones or reduce the size of the air pump thereby increasing visibility. If you put a fine airstone at the bottom of the wavemaker, it sucks the air bubbles and then cavitates the bubbles more. I reckon the finer bubbles more than quadruple the surface area of air bubbles while the vertical flow more than double time the contact time of air to water thereby increasing the dissolved oxygen better. You can also try a small submersible pump instead of the wavemaker and you will also get fine bubbles but energy cost will be higher.

    I have tried a needle wheel pump but i find the above setup more effective in terms of power output and results.
  • MikeMike June 2012
    Posts: 346
    Hi HDCu, Thanks for the recommendation. Will try it out when I got my hands on the Resun wavemaker.

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