Reminder to Quarantine
  • chin88chin88 December 2011
    Posts: 1
    Just a warm reminder to all hobbyist to do proper qt on your new koi. There are quite a number of hobbyist were having problems with their newly purchases. Some of them have been having multiple fish deaths from new acquisitions and those who mixed their kois are having the problem spread to their older kois as well. Will be totally demoralize if you lost your entire collection...
    Post edited by chin88 at 2011-12-18 06:25:39 pm
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro chin88, I am unsure if you are facing the same situation as I am, buying from the same dealer? But if it is, I think not much care could have been taken. My qt got affected even from floating the bag only. And the said koi died in the floating process.

    This is the first time I have had to endure such a massive loss and I am sad to say I have lost some pretty impressive koi. I guess my only advise to hobbyists is to make sure the dealer is conscientious when releasing quarantined koi. Mind you, mine was already quarantined for more than 3 weeks at the dealer's premise.
  • cookcpucookcpu December 2011
    Posts: 462
    Sorry to hear that. Like me, who do not have a qt tank, I guess I have to really rely on dealer to qt the koi for me or not to buy any more koi in the future.
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    I think not buying koi is an impossible task, just have to ensure the dealer you buy from is conscientious about the koi they release to you. I found out that the dealer that released the koi to me knew they have a batch of terribly sick fishes, but still it was released to avoid death in their premise.

    I think this act is simply irresponsible as most of us will mix the kois with existing stock.
  • pslongpslong December 2011
    Posts: 288
    Wow sorry to hear that folks... Makes me nervous picking up my new kois, so far been lucky.
  • KevinKevin December 2011
    Posts: 73
    Even as a new member of this community I can feel the pain you must feel for losing such good koi. I had a chance to see the pictures of bro James losses this afternoon and must say they looked like tosai with real potential.

    Brothers please keep informing of incidents like this so that us less experienced members can learn too and avoid making such mistakes. Tq for your support!
  • farikfarik December 2011
    Posts: 317
    Wah Bro James,
    Sorry to hear of your loss....didn't have a chat on this when we met at yamakoshi.Could you pm me on the irresponsible koi dealer so i also don't kena.tq
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Farik, don't wanna create any havoc, so best not to mention names. If you have brought back koi recently, PM me the dealer and I will let u know if you are facing any risk of losing koi.
  • lautslauts December 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Sorry to hear the news esp abt the dealers part.:-ss :-ss

    Let me propose a solution to QT , get those PVC 4ft blue tank abt 400lit from Aq. shops add a overhanging filter plus aquarium air pump all for less than RM400. Get a kg of zeolite to absorb all the ammo , take it out when adding medication and soak in 1% salt water. Change water 20% daily . I have 2 kois ( 53cm and 42cm ) in QT now and used to have 7 tosai ( 15-30cm) recently although not recommended but will do. Add medication accordingly for bacterias and parasites based on your protocol (or follow what bro Seng Choon suggested) and place your QT far away from your main pond , with separate small nets and bags.

    We cannot depend on dealers for successful QT. The QT is often breached by unsanitised nets going in , new kois added later before QT completed. Even splashes of water from adjoining ponds will transmit bacterias and parasites. Also use Flubenol ( original Flubendazole by Janssen Pharma) in QT for internal parasites and flukes , much more reliable than prazi IMHO.

    Good luck and be careful.

    Seasons greeting

    ts


  • KevinKevin December 2011
    Posts: 73
    Bro TS, tq for the useful tips. I think its a great idea to have seperate nets etc and was making the amatuer mistake of using the same nets.

    what form of zeolite do you use? Zeolite also depletes other nutrients like calcium etc so is it safe to use over extended period in the qt?
  • lautslauts December 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Kevin,

    I think it is safer than ammonia from fish waste. :-D. Can get from any aquarium shop.

    ts
  • KevinKevin December 2011
    Posts: 73
    Haha true. You mentioned removing it when Meds are applied. So the idea is not to have it in when the water is medicated then for fear of it absorbing the Meds as well yeah?

  • lautslauts December 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Yes , you need to recharge it as well with salt after abt a week. It will not absorb all ammo so the need to do water change at least 10 daily. Another way to reduce ammo is to use friendly bacterias like MicrobeLift , Vivakoi etc . But problem with this is the bacts gets killed as well from the medications and residues accumululated on filters and container walls. So don't work so well.

    ts
  • KevinKevin December 2011
    Posts: 73
    Sounds like a good thing to have for a hospital or qt tank. Will get some. Tq!
  • megatronmegatron December 2011
    Posts: 832
    I think it was an unfortunate to many koi kaki this time as many have lost their newly purchase koi from recent shipment including myself. I have lost 8 new tosai in the QT recently as well.
    Don't ask me why!!!
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Lauts, kind of defeat the purpose if so much work had to done after dealer qt. Our home qt is for prevention purpose. Dealer qt is for zero problem assurance. Can hardly mix the two to me.
  • lautslauts December 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro James ,

    Not sure if i get you ? Prevention and assurance QT ?

    ts
  • KevinKevin December 2011
    Posts: 73
    I think bro James has a point. There needs to be more responsibility taken at the dealer end for assurances. At our end we just qt for our own preventive measures. Come on dealer put your hand up and take responsibility for this one!
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    I think I am trying to make a simple statement, which points to the fact that any responsible individual will not release a sick koi to anyone. Because as we all know, diseases transmit quickly in koi ponds. And to do so means they are ignoring the obvious and to make matters worse, they knew their fishes were sick by virtue of massive deaths at their premises.

    It's as irresponsible as a hospital releasing a patient with a highly contagious and deadly disease. And expecting hobbyists to have a more effective quarantine process to avoid transmission of sickness is astounding!
    Post edited by James at 2011-12-20 10:27:48 am
  • KevinKevin December 2011
    Posts: 73
    Well said James!
  • lautslauts December 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro James ,

    I agree totally with your statement. And can understand how you feel.
    I have been in this hobby for long enough to see many passionate koi kichis give up and one main reason is losses to their treasured koi collection. We all can understand this , not just the $$ but rather the emotional attachment we have with our kois.
    So i see no reason to risk our collection with something we can do more effectively in our QT. Don't want to see another koi kichi brother give up, thats all.

    ts
  • lautslauts December 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Below i attach a QT protocol by bro SengChoon sometime ago . Pls use according to your requirements. Credit to bro SC.

    Hi,

    This is quite an interesting topic. Let me share my routine. Normally whenever I have a new fish coming in, I would put them thru the following quarantine process:

    1st week (6 days to 8 days)
    Parasite treatment to kill off anchor worms, lice, flukes on the new fish: Use either Methylene Blue (2 doses, 3 days apart) or Dimilin (2 doses, 5 days apart) or S1 (daily with 30% water change for 5 days) (for anchor worm and lice) or Prazi (one dose for 6 days) or Tricholoromethyl Phosphate (2 dose in 2 days) (flukes). Type of treatment will depend on where the fish is coming from i.e. mudpond, dealer, direct from Japan, etc. Normally, it is best to kill off any parasite as they may be the cause of infections, gill diseases or they may attack open wounds or damaged fins.

    2nd week (8 days)
    Internal bacteria treatment to kill off any bacteria that may reside within the new fish: Use 2 doses Interpet Internal Bacteria or Ocean Free Super Koi Internal/External Bactericide or other internal bacteria treatment e.g. Melafix (dosage will vary). This treatment is normally 4 days apart. Salt level should be 0.3% or more, unless there is formaldehyde in the meds.

    3rd week (6 days)
    External bacteria treatment to kill off any bacteria that may reside within the skin or scales of the new fish: Use 1 dose of yellow powder, S1, Ocean Free External Bacteria Treatment, Malachite Green, other general aid med (normally greenish yellow in colour) and etc for 5 days. If necessary, then only apply second dose.

    Before transferring the fish to the main pond, I normally do a PP dip for less than 5 min. PP Dip is normally twice the normal dosage or more i.e. normal dose is 2 g per tonne and PP dip should be at least 4 g per tonne and above.

    Hope this helps.

  • KevinKevin December 2011
    Posts: 73
    Tq bro TS. Useful info. Better safe than sorry on our end. But still the dealer is unscrupulous for knowingly selling sick fish. That is just wrong ethically and morally.

  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    When a patient is too sick in the hospital he/she will NOT be moved to another. I dun care how good the doctors or the hospital being moved to is. So, bro Lau, tks for your kind consideration, but in this case I think is totally misplaced. We are not talking about koi with simple stress issues!!
  • pohbengpohbeng December 2011
    Posts: 114
    Quotes :
    I think I am trying to make a simple statement, which points to the fact that any responsible individual will not release a sick koi to anyone. Because as we all know, diseases transmit quickly in koi ponds. And to do so means they are ignoring the obvious and to make matters worse, they knew their fishes were sick by virtue of massive deaths at their premises.

    It's as irresponsible as a hospital releasing a patient with a highly contagious and deadly disease. And expecting hobbyists to have a more effective quarantine process to avoid transmission of sickness is astounding!
    Post edited by James

    Hi Bro James,

    I agreed to your view on ways dealers behave.
    Key questions is how do they balance between $$$ and Responsibility.

    Actually, I've seen good dealers that KILL ALL of infected koi, and this bring them far, bec their farm are "clean" from infection.

    On the other hand, I've seen dealers continue to mix infected koi into his main collections, and the farm is totally infected, and not able to recover since then.

    But sad to say, many dealers look at short term gain verse long term benefit.
    And there are also newbie fall victims to such irresponsible dealers.

    Can any club or hobbyists group do something? I guess forum like such will be useful to share and exchange good practise, although each of us have different successful methods.

    Cheers!
  • kumarishnakumarishna December 2011
    Posts: 90
    Sorry for the lost Bro James. I can understand your feeling and ur frustration.
    I has face the same incident like you before but it was in 2009.

    *ALL- proper quarantine is simple step and everyone have their own way to do this.
    Sometimes...we cannot depend much on the dealers. I personally think we need to do our own husbandry skills also.

    My way of quarantine is as per below:-
    This works fine for me but need to spend TIME.
    1st week - 0.3% salt with S1 and daily 10% water change ( no feeding )
    2nd week- 0.45% salt with daily 10% water change ( no feeding )
    3rd week onward - will start reducing salt slowly and mix with pond water ( star feeding medi food)

    Lastly, I will inspect the Koi condition and the behaviors before add to the main pond.

    Once add new koi to the pond I will stop feeding for 3 days and monitor the entire fish behaviors for the next course of action.

    Carefull/monitor closely on the koi flashing sign. Some people used to say ' take it easy when the koi flashing if you introduce new koi to the pond' For me....this is the important sign to observe. Flashing for 1 day is OK la but if everyday start flashing and all fish start flashing is something alarming.

    All the best guys. (handshake)
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro kumar, quarantine doesn't wipe out illness that are serious to wipe out your other kois in the quarantine tank. It's not the quarantine process but how sick the koi was... Sickness can still transmit in qt! And to assume qt is always empty is like assuming a hospital will never have patients. And assuming patients in icu are equally healthy as those in normal wards. Isn't that insanity?

    Bro Poh Beng, the only way for the dealers to b more conscientious is we teach them collectively that they have to be. Power of buyers together in asking for decent and ethical trading traits or lose a huge customer base.
  • lautslauts December 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro ,

    Since i opened my big mouth ( with good intension =(( ) i might as well end it. Notion of koi dealer = hospital very idealistic and expecting too much . Know of any dealer using microscope to confirm disease free before selling kois ? You think they did a proper QT like the one posted ? S1 and salt sufficient? its not the duration of QT but what you do in QT that makes the difference bro. How many dealers are also koi keepers , and can deal with serious koi diseases ?
    Dealers will be more than happy if you take it off their hand ASAP, does not matter RM20k or Rm200 koi. Caveat Emptor all the time . Isn't this reality ?

    ts

  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Lau, not in agreement with u. If after a whole pond of kois die and u think it is still ok to buy from that pond then u can walk your talk. Or else, well u're just talk.

    So in similar fashion after a whole batch of koi dies in their premise they should not assume the kois are gonna be fine. And if u believed your quarantine process, perhaps u shouldn't be too concerned and PM and even follow up with an SMS to find out if some kois u bought were safe, lol!!! Better to trust your "quarantine skills". And I challenge u on this!

    We r all entitled to our opinions in this forum. Just don't form one, defend it but don't practice it. Sorry but to me that's a hypocrite!
  • chin88chin88 December 2011
    Posts: 1
    Bro James,
    i don't know whether we are buying from the same dealer, maybe you can pm me which dealer you buy from. Yes, I'm facing the same problem as you. All of my kois in qt died the next day.

    Bro Lauts,
    Thanks for your useful tips for qt. But if there are dealer out there selling sick or diseased fish to us without letting us know, do you think we can cure the fish during qt? Just for an example, if you buy a koi which got KHV and qt together with other kois, do you think only that particular koi die or the whole kois at qt die?

    Bro Kevin,
    Agree on what you said.
    "But still the dealer is unscrupulous for knowingly selling sick fish. That is just wrong ethically and morally."
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Hahaha bro chin88, maybe we should start voting to see if we are too demanding of dealers or is bro lau right, that hobbyist have to endure known sick koi from dealers.

    Dealer should not release sick koi
    1. James
    2. Chin88 (I presume u have the same opinion)

    Dealer can release sick koi because hobbyist should know the proper quarantine process
    1. Lau TS
  • KevinKevin December 2011
    Posts: 73
    I vote with James and Chin
  • PH8PH8 December 2011
    Posts: 683
    There is a Chinese saying, if you are not the one poked by the needle, you will never understand how painful it was. I think folks should check facts before making judgements. I know Bro James quarantines his koi, but this time round, his koi never stood a chance. If during a koi buying season, a hobbyist buys koi from 4 different dealers, is the hobbyist expected to have 4 different Qtanks? Typically, it would already be good if the hobbyist quarantined his koi at all. So if all the koi from the 4 dealers died because a single fish (or just a plastic bag!!) from one dealer was contaminated, and that dealer knowingly sold the fish knowing it was diseased, should the hobbyist be blamed? Does it make a difference if the koi being quarantined cost RM200 or RM20,000?

    I'm not giving any answer. Go figure.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-12-21 07:05:48 am
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Paul, it's great knowing a veteran like yourself understand my opinion. I thought I was out of my mind and there was something wrong with me. Made me even more restless thinking such dealer can act irresponsibly.
  • DAVIDSOONDAVIDSOON December 2011
    Posts: 262

    Brother James and All ,

    Quarantine Protocol here had been breached from what I read among those who had written in this thread . Over the many years of buying , here's what I can share .

    " NO HOBBYISTS NEED TO QUARANTINE THEIR NEW PURCHASES , IF THESE ARE FRESHLY IMPORTED FROM JAPAN or NEIGBOURING COUNTRIES .... BECAUSE IT'S THE DUTY OF THE IMPORTERS / DEALERS WHO SHOULD HANDLE AND OBSERVE THE QUARANTINE PROTOCOL LAID DOWN BY THE FISHERY AUTHORITIES BOTH ENDS OF THE CAUSEWAY ... AND NOT THE HOBBYISTS "

    As said , the quarantine protocol laid out by the Fishery Department or AVA in the case of Singapore , requires ALL IMPORTED KOIS , including those from neigbouring countries , to be quarantined in a Designated Enclosed Quarantine Area for a minimum period of 21 days or 3 weeks .
    Quarantine procedures includes " TEST FISHES " , upto 25 small test fishes in each quarantine tanks , no matter how big or small the imported fishes are . Small fishes ( normally koi fishlings ) are used because they succumb to disease outbreak easily and will first to die before the bigger ones show signs of epidemic .

    Despite the Health Certs issued by the respective exporters , this Quarantine Protocol and period of 3 weeks , allows the Fishery Department or AVA in the importing countries , to perform tests on the " Test Fishes " to detect diseases ( especially KHV ) . During this period of quarantine time , NO fishes is allowed to leave the Enclosed Quarantine Area , until they are certified free of diseases . If during the quarantine period , any of the test fishes is found to be carrying any of the viral , the Designated Quarantine Area will be closed and all fishes within will be "exterminated " . The Quarantine Area cannot be reused temporary unless they are sanitzed and certified " free of epidemic viral " .

    1 ) If any importers / dealers start distributing their freshly imports before the stipulated time frame , it's a breach of quarantine protocol . They can have their Import License revoke or suspend by the respective authorities .

    2 ) If in any case , before the "test fishes" are sent for examinations and test fishes start dying in the qurantine tank , the importers / dealers are to duly report the high mortality to the respective Fishery Authority for immediate test on the remaining fishes while the Qurantine Area remain shut . This again , is a breach of protocol if high mortality is found and not reported .

    3 ) IF any fresh imports is distributed during the quarantine period , hobbyists reserve the rights not to receive them , till they are certified safe and passed the required time frame.

    KHV is a deadly Viral disease among Kois , and can wipe out almost the entire pond stock within days when they spread , and those that survived the outbreak ... simply became " HOST" to the deadly viral . Under duress or stress , the host can simply allow the viral to manifest again in a new environment or pond or even during quarantine .
    Unscrupulous Breeders or exporters , who knowingly know the history of their stocks , can contain or prevent these outbreak by keeping the "host" in warmer water above 28 deg Celsius . Though the " Host " might look healthy , the release of the deadly virus can exterminate the stocks they are mixed with . This practice is indeed sinful .

    IF any importers / dealers who knowingly , released or distribute such fishes during quarantine , they not only break the Code of Conduct handed down by the Fishery Authorities , but also the Code of Etiquette as a seller .

    Buyers , reserved the rights , to report such unscrupulous conduct or distributors , and even seek compensation for losses arising from such misconduct of the distributor or dealer .

    I hope this help .

    David

    P.S - I hope this message is not deemed as being offensive to the regional dealers or importers , but rather be seen as a fair memorandum for all buying hobbyists .



    The Best is Yet to Come .
  • ikankoikauikankoikau December 2011
    Posts: 1,053
    Brudders,
    Been reading this thread with great interest but got no proper time to stir in. Before that I am very sorry to hear about your lost.

    Buying new kois and adding to our pond has known to be a risk. What all of us trying to do is to manage the risk. I bought a few tossais recently(surely from the same dealer too even without name mentioned). Probably from the same batch with your tossais. Nothing unusual happened during quarantine but a few were showing closed fins syndrome after a few days they were released into the pond. Treated the whole pond and they are fine now.

    Buying small tossai(less than 20cm) and newly arrived is always risky. Not only on the health but also the appearance. To be fair to the dealers, did the dealers forced you to bring home the tossais prior to completion of quarantine process? Did you check the koi's health when you bought them? Did you know or notice that the kois were sicked? Did you observe the dealers' pond and how they carry out the quarantine process?

    Why I am asking these questions is that I want us to be sure if we were also to be blamed. Was the dealer knew that the particular batch was sicked at the time of purchase? If 5 kois out of 100 kois are parking, can we consider the whole batch of kois are sicked and we should avoid buying it? So the answer rely to each individual. I will definitely avoid buying sicked koi and most of us will do the same thing but I honestly will buy (if the koi is good enough) even if there are few other kois showing parking syndrome. Maybe I will still buy even there are some other kois affected by fungus if the koi I am buying really good and looks healthy.

    The main point, of course the dealer must not release sicked koi. What about kois which only few of it's batch mates are sicked? How do you define whole batch of kois are sicked? If you like the koi so much and you think that the koi will be in better hand with you, would you leave it at the dealer's pond which will be mixed with other kois(healthy and sick)? Or you can leave it with the dealer and hope your koi will pass the quarantine stage without getting affected by any disease? Looking at this, there are many factors which will influence our decision especially our own capability. Still, if you buy healthy koi, it still doesn't guarantee you that you will not have problem when introducing it into your pond.

    Handling 30 kois personally is hard enough not to mentioned hundreds or thousand of new kois. They will have their limitations in handling huge life stocks and we are free to decide on the purchasing. The money or credit card is in our own wallet so decide wisely brothers.

    IKK
    Post edited by ikankoikau at 2011-12-21 08:34:46 am
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Sifu David, some hobbyist don't seem to understand the gravity of the matter as I read sadly to realise the kind of reason a hobbyist will give themselves to buy a koi. I think your detail explanation of a dealer's responsibility on ensuring health of koi sums it all. It is their obligation as a licensed importer of fish stock.

    It's one thing to have one of two deaths leading to assumption of weak kois, but when a substantial batch dies, I think it is simply clear how seriously sick they were and the minor surviving pieces should still have to be tested for sickness.

    Capt, I think you have taken the discussion astray. If 5 kois out of 100 are parking, u cannot even notice the 5. Even if you did, you would know it is insignificant anyways. And it seems clear you are talking about koi showing stress indications, but we are talking big time sickness. As serious as aeromonas, KHV that affects huge population in a small matter of time. And not the small stress issues that cause temporary unrest to our koi stock. Your point about making observation, is like you are saying your passenger should talk to you to see if you are a worthy pilot before boarding your flight! Or survey the number of hours you have clocked and how you have clocked them. And pls board at your own risk. How absurb is that? And I doubt we are talking about the same dealer, because everyone I know who bought from that batch, well all died and taken many others along. BTW, this is no personal attack just merely agreeing to disagree.
  • lautslauts December 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bros ,

    I am not defending the dealers , they should not be selling sick koi so James we are on same side :). What i am saying is QT to be safe. Bio security is the word , even 1 drop of contaminated water ( water on the bag's opening?) will cause havoc.
    Yes , i have 3 QT tanks now. I do not QT different batches together. (note the pond picts of Felix Denanta in M.Gardner? , there are 3 huge QT away from facility too).

    Unfortunately there are many established hobbyist in Msia that do not QT , they have been lucky but it only takes one time to wipe out our collection. We can blame the dealers but i prefer to take responsibility. Didn't we see the other kois in the dealer pond are sick too since there are massive death ? All die overnight in the dealers pond after we took home our kois ? WE are the koi health expert bros, not the dealer, except one/two dealer hobbyist.

    I see the futility to blame dealers when we still depend and support them. When we get them to support our next koi shows. After years and years of hobbyist suffering losses , all the dealers are still around. Care to name the dealer we are talking about so others will be more aware, ... not even an sms bro ? :-@

    Again Bro James , i do feel your pain, i too had suffered losses in QT.

    ts
  • ikankoikauikankoikau December 2011
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro James,

    Not too worry bro. Nothing will be personal in this forum ;-)

    Since you talk about flying(hahaha)...When you travel for a flt, there are responsible parties to ensure that the airlines and crew are licensed to carry passengers. Still, the passenger will have choice to travel with the airline or not. With your own experience and feedback, it certainly carries weight when you decide to travel with a particular airline. It's the airline's responsibility to maintain the safety standard, legality and reputation. Towards the end, the passengers will have the final say.

    But airline is providing services and equipment not life stock my friend. Huge different bro. But the similarity is, the airlines staff(especially the captain) can't really tell which passengers are sicked or carry deadly virus for them to be offloaded. YES you are right, due to this, you board an aircraft at your own risk. For something you can't tell what's going to happen even a top safe airline can't guarantee the outcome.

    Back to this topic, I assumed that the import and quarantine requirement for any dealer must be met before a shipment is released. Again I assumed that the kois were in good condition. From what I can see, the batch was healthy when I was there. I think everybody who were there agreed with me.
    Most likely the dealer too believed that they were selling healthy kois at that time. But what happened after that is the real issue.

    There were hobbyist over there who have asked me whether to bring back the kois they have purchased or not. My answer to them was depend on your quarantine equipment and procedure. If you don't have proper quarantine equipment and procedure, then just leave it and wait until the kois gone through the quarantine period at the dealer's pond. It will be a lot safer and I know for sure that the dealer will not and can't force you to take the koi if it's sicked during and after quarantine period.

    So as a hobbyist, the second option is safer. But I was afraid my new(and look healthy) kois might get affected or detoriated if I leave it at the dealer's pond. With a quarantine pond which getting addition of newly purchased kois almost every hour, something will set to happen. The element of risk is unavoidable. This what I meant about observing dealer's pond and quarantine procedure. How can a dealer guarantees the koi's health if it's in our own quarantine tank(regardless how situ the hobbyist is)?

    I am surely not a dealer but certainly a new hobbyist with experience of new kois died in quarantine tank before. Like what I have said, dealer MUST NOT release any sicked koi. Period. We must look at options to improve this situation. One of it is to report to relevant independent authority who can conduct health check for died kois or sicked kois. If it's proven that the same bacteria or virus which has caused the death of our new koi exist in the dealer's pond, then hobbyist should be compensated. Action must be taken against the dealer to improve their handling. Of course there must be a time limit after the purchased was made. This will be fair to the hobbyist and the dealer will have to improve their handling and quarantine procedure.

    Regards

    IKK

    Ps: I know one good dealer who will separate purchased kois by hobbyist individually in saperate aquariums. No sharing net between ponds. Hobbyist are not allowed to bring back the kois if it's just arrived unless you yourself willing to take the risk.



    Post edited by ikankoikau at 2011-12-21 06:21:37 pm
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    This is becoming a circus.

    Bro Lau,

    FACT 1: Kois died in my QT. What do u think they were doing in QT. Not being QT??

    FACT 2: I am not looking for your sympathy. The point of this is to ensure no other hobbyist have to suffer the trouble and inconvenience. I don't need u to feel me!

    FACT 3: I am only a junior hobbyist, and you are more senior (by virtue of years anyways)

    FACT 4: I have never given you my number, not sure how you got mine but I sure as hell don't have yours. And still with your "Mr. Constructive" theory that you should qt yourself and that dealers don't know better than u in the first place, u still have the audacity to SMS me. Couldn't even wait for a reply on PM!!! Don't need to find out anything la, just take your koi home and QT yourself, why go through trouble to clarify and give me the trouble to explain to you! And read FACT 3. You are a senior hobbyist (by virtue of years) so why with your stubborn views ask from someone more junior than you? And panic yourself! Unless u too cannot handle sick kois which u so "constructively" write about here!

    FACT 5: When your SMS don't get replied, read in between the lines la! Koi is a hobby to me and in this hobby I can choose to interact with people who I am comfortable with. Nobody can tell me otherwise! Oops! Not sure if you can handle the brutal truth!

    Capt, I doubt we're talking about same dealer. And may i emphasize, large batch of the kois died before, during and after the koi release. So, let's again not advocate to the fact that any quarantine process is good enough, because this can easily mislead even more junior hobbyists than me.
    Post edited by James at 2011-12-21 09:22:56 pm
  • ikankoikauikankoikau December 2011
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro James,

    Maybe different dealer la bro. But if the kois already sick before, during and after, then there shouldnt be any transaction allowed at all. But what ever it is, we should work together to ensure dealers and hobbyist get benefits from this thread. In this hobby, no matter how good our quarantine procedure, it will not guarantee the best outcome when we got a sick koi at the first place.

    What we hope for is the dealer to be more responsible. If we can understand the risk keeping life stock, they must be responsible to minimise the risk. There are times they can make good profit and they are times they have to forgo it to ensure we get good product even at their lost. It a small hobby where people know each other. I hope with this topic raised, the respective dealer will take appropriate and correct steps to arrest this issue. When the whole batch affected in their own pond, the dealer must be gentleman enough to accept responsibility even when the kois were already released.



    Post edited by ikankoikau at 2011-12-21 09:55:19 pm
  • PH8PH8 December 2011
    Posts: 683
    Captain Borman, that was a very good perspective. :) This hobby of ours is is a relatively small hobby, we all need each other. All members of the koi community should help each other, not just hobbyist to hobbyist but also dealer to hobbyist and vice versa. Hobbyists support dealers by buying from them. In fact over the years, most dealers have become friends too (or sometimes hobbyist friends turn dealers), and therefore many of us buy from multiple dealers in a single koi buying season, partly as a show of support. But dealers on the other hand have also got their part to play by making things easier for the hobbyist. The temptation for a quick buck and transfer of financial risk is always there, but long term relationships can only be built by the more disciplined dealers. Then only can there be respect.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-12-21 10:12:31 pm
  • kumarishnakumarishna December 2011
    Posts: 90
    Well said Captain and 200% agree with you Bro Paul.
    All members of Koi community should help each other. (handshake)
  • megatronmegatron December 2011
    Posts: 832
    :)>-
    Don't ask me why!!!
  • NeliNeli December 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Brother Lout,
    dont U think that 400l is just too small for a QT? I used first 1000l and even that I found just too small..
    I was just informed that a dealer...from SA...bought some very nice fish, if I am not mistaken from China....He QT them but he still ended loosing all his fish to KHV...(even the one from Japan) ..is now almost bankrupt...
    What a shame....
    There is a new theory....that there is lots of latent KHV around.some dont manifest even after years...but is able to infect other fishes...
    It is such a scary situation...
    Some one suggested putting a doitsu ochiba to test and see if the new fish is OK...They say ochiba is the first one to succumb to KHV???? Thats what they say ?????

    All I can say is that I am sure the dealer who sold him the Koi, must have known he has it...the fish was priced so U can not resist buying it....the result was a total devastation for him...lost all his fish...all! And he had lots of imported fish of fantastic quality...
    If what reputable sources are stating of late that many people have latent KHV and they dont even know it....is true...How are we going to buy new ffish with a peace of mind...
    BTW I know dealers who got KHV from fish imported from Japan! So that is not guarantee too...
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-12-22 01:52:09 am
  • ashfaqashfaq December 2011
    Posts: 799
    Its very Very difficult to buy kois from Japan, if this is happening. But still this will be carry on.....

    I feel only show kois which ranges from JPY XXXXXXX are only quarantined and SOLD properly??

    Or else we must buy from the BEST dealer who is around us or in Japan, so that he will buy healthy fishes and quarantine properly and sold to us?

    This is misleading and making us loose interest over buying kois in future
    Thanks,
    Ashfaq from India-Chennai
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Yeah, go to responsible dealers. I went to check on some of my new purchases today from pasar petang an am glad that they r being taken care of properly.

  • pslongpslong December 2011
    Posts: 288
    James, truly sorry for your loss. Nice batch of tosais! Am sure there will be a few winners there!
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Sean, I only have 3 pieces in the video. Ben chose for me as I was not able to make it there...
  • KevinKevin December 2011
    Posts: 73
    Bro James where is pasar petang?
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Kevin, already SMS u.....
  • KevinKevin December 2011
    Posts: 73
    Tq bro!
  • pslongpslong December 2011
    Posts: 288
    James, sorry my bad! Wah , I thought the joys is in the picking of the kois lol. Good luck with them
  • JamesJames December 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Sean, absolutely right but cannot make it there due to showroom opening so had to contend with just having perhaps the best pick of the batch..... :-))
  • ShukriShukri January 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Just catching up on discussions that I have missed while being away for more than two months.
    James, I have been there and have my fair share of problems. In the initial stage, I lost every single Tosais worth RM7,500 that I purchased then. I too learn the hard way. I am always wary about dealers because of just one simple reason........they are in the koi business to make money, and everything else come second.
    Nowadays, I am very selective when come to purchasing kois from certain dealers. I do not even purchase anything from certain dealers these days because I feel that they under par when come to quarantining new fishes.......
    So just be wary of them and be extra careful if you do still buy kois from them.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • JamesJames January 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Shukri, I don't think I will buy kois from the said dealer again. I cannot disagree that they are there to make money. But have some ethics. Can u imagine the world without this basic quality. It's one thing to sell different grade/quality/price of koi, but totally another to sell them infected and carrying contagious disease.

    To me, losing these tosais were painful (because they were all very good show quality) but more painful is the agony of taking care of the dying. It takes up simply too much time and effort.
  • ShukriShukri January 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Can you PM me the said dealer please! Is it the same as the one that has caused havoc in Daniel's pond?
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • JamesJames January 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Shukri, yes it's the same. Can u imagine how long they have been in business but still do this? Simply irresponsible.
  • KaajKaaj January 2012
    Posts: 376
    James,
    It is unfortunate that you have lost so many koi due to someone else being negligent. My sincere condolences on such a calamity :( I hear that many other hobbyists have also incurred the same. Sadly, this debacle will cause the said dealer to loose in the future, for the sake of a quick turn over.

    The QT period at dealers is exactly for the purpose of knowing the koi are in good health before being released to clients. If they have not done this, the blame rests squarely with them.

    However, what concerns me most is whether they were aware of the situation, but yet chose to release these koi. I was told that In Japan, if there is an epidemic, the entire batch is exterminated purposely to ensure no further spread of the decease. I heard that said dealer had also previously had such a scenario - I wonder what they did with their remaining livestock.
    Post edited by Kaaj at 2012-01-05 06:42:36 pm
  • JamesJames January 2012
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Kaaj, as I mentioned, kois were dying before, during and even after release in large quantities. Eventually I was informed the entire batch was wiped out. I think to claim they are not aware is a mockery since monetary losses are being incurred with such a mass wipe out. If 1 koi dies, different matter la...
  • SengChoonSengChoon January 2013
    Posts: 443
    Sorry, posted on the wrong thread.
    Post edited by SengChoon at 2013-01-23 10:26:35 am
  • jamiltjamilt January 2013
    Posts: 287
    Bro @sengchoon for koi bought from yamakoshi championship which qt regime should I use, 1 or 2
  • Awong81Awong81 January 2013
    Posts: 23
    Dear Bros

    I would like to share my experience regarding this quarantine issue. I just started being serious in this since the year before. So far I bought tosai from a dealer in another town and ship it back to my home with no trouble as I always buy the stock which is leftover, ie clearance stock la. Never quarantined and never had a problem before. Probably it is luck.

    Last year around August got some new tosai which was kept at the dealer's place and after introducing to the pond, all the fish start flashing. Panicked and quickly added S1 and salt as recommended in some other threads. Problem solved.

    Bought some more tosai last December and decided to just simply quarantine for few days, see if the fish are OK and then transfer to pond. I added S1 and salt. Out of 4 tosai bought, the biggest 1 had been parking. It also started to develop a wound on its mouth due to constant pressure against the QT wall. I panicked and transferred the other 3 tosais to the pond since I thought they are OK and I didn't want them to be infected by anything from this sick koi. I treated the ulcer with PP. Sadly the sick koi died. I thought that was the end of it.

    Recently, I discovered one of the kois i bought recently is beginning to develop dropsy. It is now back into the QT. Now with hindsight, I remember the dealer told me the fish just arrived from Japan. I asked why was the color fading and he said it is due to stress and I thought nothing of it. Now I regret making 2 very big mistakes, which is to not buy fish that look strange and secondly, to skimp on quarantine.

    Bro James, I can feel your pain although it is the first time happening to me. Now I am worried if my whole pond is compromised because of that 1 fish.
    (sweat)

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