Topic: Sodium thiosulfate and chloramines

[Ppulcher]

If your system has lots of plant, the ammonia might not be a huge concern - many plants prefer ammonia to NitrAte.  If your pH is consistently in acidic ranges, the ammonia is present as ammonium and it's not as toxic.

In my neck of the woods, the amount of chlorine and ammonia used to treat the water isn't consistent.  Sometime little ammonia is used, sometimes there is much more.

[LittlePuff]

Wouldn't your cycle just take care of it?

[RinsMom]

Yes, the cycle does take care of the ammonia, but you ultimately end up with nitrates, which can only be removed by water changes (or a heavily planted tank) ......  and then the water changes add more ammonia and ultimately more nitrates in the system. 

[LittlePuff]

So, are we supposed to do water changes?

[RinsMom]

Yes, but what I am trying to say is that you may need to use something that fully neutralizes both the chlorine and the ammonia that are what make up chloramine....

It may not be an issue to some, but before I realized what the chloramine was doing to my tank (actually, using just the single sodium thiosulfate declorinator), I was doing BIG water changes trying to remove the ammonia I kept seeing.... not realizing that I was actually PUTTING the ammonia in there.

Most people should probably use a product that does handle both... but the sodium thiosulfate does not neutralize the ammonia from the chloramine.  It just breaks the bond between the chlorine and ammonia, deactivates the chlorine, but leaves the ammonia behind.

Again, some people may not have problems with it, but I have.  My tanks are planted, but not enough to utilize all that extra ammonia. I'd like more plants, but that isn't going to happen right now.  The pH in my water supply is typically 8.2, so I the ammonia is more toxic to the fish.  (PPulcher is right to point out that in acidic water, the ammonia is present as ammonium, and is not as toxic... but that's not the case for me....  my pH is much higher.)

There are several products that do neutralize the ammonia/ammonium.... Prime handles it nicely, as does Amquel.

[bulrush]

My pH is 7.2-7.4, which is not very high. Ammonia is more toxic at higher pH levels, right?

[Ppulcher]

My pH is 7.2-7.4, which is not very high. Ammonia is more toxic at higher pH levels, right?

That's right.  At acid pH (below 7) more of the ammonia is present as ammonium, which is less toxic.  There is still ammonia present in the water, too. Most test kits measure the total ammonia (NH3, un-ionized and NH4+, ionized).  See this article for some more info:  http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html

[wendyjo]

Bul why not test your tap water before and after treatment and see what kind of ammonia reading you get?

This can be a big problem - even tho the cycle "should" take care of it, if the free ammonia is too high you'll still get a spike.  It's also a big issue for small betta tanks where people do 100% water changes instead of having a cycled tank.  They don't realize they're adding ammonia to the tank with each water change if they are not using a product that deals with both the chlorine and the ammonia.  I myself was unaware of this until I had put 2 SAE's in an uncycled 5g holding tank overnight as I was planning to sell them the next day.  I added them to the tank in the morning and in the afternoon tested the water and wow I had ammonia in there.  I hadn't fed them at all and altho they were large fish I was surprised at the reading.  Changed out all the water, tested it again a few hours later and still had the same reading.  That's when I realized what was going on and very quickly added Prime to the tank.

[Ppulcher]

Interesting observation wendyjo.  Prime is the good stuff.

One caveat:  my cheapo ammonia test kit give false-positive readings for ammonia even after I use Prime in brand new tap water.  It measures the total ammonia, including the ammonia in chloramines bound by Prime. 

[wendyjo]

I think it's supposed to do that so it's not really a false reading.  My understanding is that the ammonia is still there and therefore still available to the bio filter, but somehow rendered harmless.  Not sure tho - there's alot of things I think I understand that turn out to be bunk!

Now, I do use Prime but I've had issues with it as well.  When I first started using it I did a water change in 2 different tanks, using only Prime.  Within 15 minutes I had dead fish floating at the tops of both tanks.  The Prime and the water from the tap were the only things that the 2 tanks had in common - I used separate equipment on both and the tanks weren't even on the same floor of the house.  One was 40g and one was 5.5g.  I assumed it was a problem with the Prime and dumped in some regular dechlor I had on hand and saved the rest of the fish.  So there was something not right with the that bottle.  But I always use it in my betta tanks - they're cycled but too small to deal with an ammonia spike, and tonite after thinking about this thread I "manned up" and used only Prime in my big tank (I usually use Prime and another regular dechlor).  So far no one is floating!