all my fish are dead but 3

[bulrush]

First, you said you tested ammonia and nitrates, but did not post the results here. We will need the test result for NitrIte also. Those 3 tests will tell us if your tank is recycling.

You said you cleaned the tank and I suspect you killed all or most of the bacteria in the filter, not good. Which means your tank is cycling again. But we can't be sure since you didn't post the 3 test results here.

It also sounds like you are feeding way too much. For example, for a 2 inch long fish, I feed them a flake the size of my pinky and I do this twice a day for adult fish. If there is food in the tank at the next feeding, COMPLETELY skip that feeding. Let the fish eat the leftovers.

[bettaboy]

Hello there.  I just signed up to answer this as I was searching for lighting.

First, the worms may have simply been planara (a harmless hides in the light small moves along the glass and or floats when organic bio loads warrant (ie build up)... it is a read flag of sorts.  Obviously without direct observation it is hard to say.

See this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planarian

Here is a great site (by PH's) for much information.

http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/prevention.html

Water Changes

You have to remember that a fish is swimming around in his own toilet, so good clean fresh water is important. On a double filtered tank, a 25% water change per week is sufficient. Usually, on most aquariums 25% per week is acceptable. The size of the water change depends on how many fish are in the tank, and also how much filtration you are using. Your water should be crystal clear, and you should not have any black or red algae in your tank. If this is the situation, you need to treat the tank or pond with Erythromycin.

Too many water changes can be bad because you will not give the biological bacteria enough time to become established. If you are keeping your aquarium or pond too clean, you are doing more harm than good. Not to mention the fact that if you are in there scrubbing, moving rocks around and constantly disturbing the tank, you will stress out the fish and cause them to become ill and eventually die.


http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/fish_diseases/bacteria.html

But obviously you are correct in your assumption that the water chemistry is off and yes it can easily be something in the municipal water supply, as this very thing occurred to me (45 plus years experience and biochemistry in my background) aquarists upon a water change to one of 8 tanks with rapid die offs.  (I always pre age and filter a huge volume of water when chemical removers (midtown NYC and NO the water is not great)... I ran to the local pet store where a manager was scolding his staff as they as well that day did water changes and all their tanks had experienced rapid die offs.  There was digging in the local pipes (near where the crane fell) and that's all it took for who knows what to enter the water supply - it was the one time I did not wait over 48 hours after filling my huge garbage bucket with all the filters and my fish paid a  heavy price.

Therefore it could have been more then one factor involved.

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That said I think it was "over enthusiam" with the cleaning (as others mentioned, you destroyed your cycle, did not take precautions while recyling - and just adding bugs will not cycle it instantly... but daily water changes - smaller and more frequent would have helped tremendously while avoiding toxic overloads.)

(I having grown up raising fish in the 50's didn't even know the term cycle - we "matured" our tanks with plants (yes they do contribute) and then slowly added our fish over weeks and even months... never lost a fish nor expected to.)

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So there was a cascade of moves that contributed to the original problem and worms give a clue.  It was most likely the gasses (toxic) from over load of organics breaking down (worms a huge clue here) and then the attemps to rectify it.

As well, one of the key things that is not understood with water changes, (and I am not sure what your regular scheduled routine is) but unless a dire emergancy (and even then much care must be taken) the less drastic action taken is best.  This is because fish, are osmotic creatures and even slight changes in ph, water quality including bacterial load can cause shock and death.  (even toxins from bacterial algae such as the cyanobacterial algae or blue/green (not always blue however) types.

Therefore, assuming it was NOT something in the water supply - (the worms give a clue) but organic overload and gasses that are toxic to the fish... a slight partial with same paramentours would be warranted - no more then 1/4 even less if the water were really "dirty".  This again, is because bacterial load changes can cause shock (as well as much else like redox but too much to go into here)... and even moving fish from tank to tank needs very slow dribble in dribble out water adjustments as each tank has it's own unique water chemistry no matter if the stuff in it is exactly the same.

Then do this each day, until health is restored.  As well, you probably restarted a cycle (again as previously mentioned) (ie starting with the medications then exacerbated by all that "cleaning") (fish are best removed to hospital tank, lowered lights (less stress) and silk plants for security with floss to filter gunk).

(if you have gravel but light plantings then I'd suggesting slowly removing most gravel to about 1/4 inch - and or pot plants that need deeper.  (or shove the gravel to the back area and keep it there with a creative rocky solution - and less where there are no plant roots to keep gravel clean by nature's design.)  That leaves just enough for bio cultures but not so much for build up of anarobic bacterial and gasses.  And if you do gravel vac, do only one part each time.)

I always over filter - two per tank and one in a small tank depending on types of fish may be a sponge so as not to create the "dish washer" effect (water flow too much and no place to rest, lol).  This way your culture when doing filter changes is never drastically off set.  As well, as in nature, water is always being refreshed (save for swamps so on and even then it occurs) so I do more frequent smaller partial changes at least once a week, and daily in hospital tanks as there is no culture there.

If you had wanted to "speed" things up in this set up, without causes more shock and stress to already stressed fish, you could have put a bucket under the tank, slowly dribble out the water (from the bottom) and I mean drip, drip drip...and one above dripping better water in...

So, the cloudy water indicates the struggle for bacterial balancing and again you added to this by "cleaning" again..... as someone mentioned your cycle was disturbed.

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Overcleaning is not a good practice even when things are going wrong.  What seems "clean" for us is dire for fish, and as with the bacteria in our gutts - the good, bad and ugly, all must be in balance and sterility will kill (even the so called "negative" bacteria produce b - vitamins - balance is the key.)

Now, lets assume it was more then the main problem (water degradition) and something was as well in the water (again just because one tank was "ok" does not mean much, (except for this one factor) so one must be careful in examining all that might play a role in this.



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So, (again worms, were they in other tank as well???) aside, one solution would have been to set up a hospital tank with water quality that is known (and as someone mentioned never used distilled unless you are keeping discus and as mentioned need this water or roe with added essential minerals (for osmotic regulatioan of cellular tissues) back to desired hardness and ph and more essential for those biotype inhabitants.

So, one would put them in their exact tank water (set up new tank with good water, same temp same ph) but the bacterial load IS different.  What I do in emergancies with little to no fish loss (as when I bought some asian glass cats and I always take gallons of the stores water home as any ph difference can only be .5 per day change and other quality that is different from there to my water)... and do the following.

Put the original water in holding tank or even tub - sponge filter or at least an air stone... low lights to reduce stress... I put in small airline and loop to control drip rate... then I add some of the new water with similar looped driping water in... depending on the margin of difference is how slow I go - can take all day.

No feeding during this time and keep things quiet.

That said, once,  asked a guy at the store to give me a gallon of water and unlike my normal staffer, I found out (unfortunately) later that he did not take it from their huge out side filtered tanks (from the tank my fish came out of) but got it from the goldfish pond!   I had no idea of course (but it did smell a bit) and in short order when I came back into the darkened room one asian glass cat was white (ie dead or close to it) and the rest were at the top on their sides with by now ammonia burn to their delicate gill tissues (in layers and like our lungs easily damaged and they die for lack of gas exchange.)

Here is what I did in that emergancy (and due to my curiousity and always doing huge amounts of research late into the night.)

I knew that this medication helps with amnonia burn and had a "hospital medicine chest" per staff at National Fish Pharmecuitals (although I first try not to have sick fish due to maintenance, then try more holistic methods, and meds as last ditch emergancy.)...  Notrofuracin Green and I slowly started my dribble out the bad, dribble in my fresh (slightly salted for osmotic shock as well)....  I put the white guy down fast and easy (wham to head with napkin over tank, got it down to nano second so least time line for them) and miraculously the rest recovered over time.

So, as we all do, sigh, I learned another lesson at my fishes expense and that was to supervise even the water (I have them not put in one bag then dump in another, nor use nets... cups and direct to take home bag.)

I went in the next day and asked the newbie where he got his water from for me (arrrgghhh!)...  I used to volunteer at my local fish store (poor bettas) and if you ever see the fish shipments come in the water is often blue/green.  Here is why.

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products3.html

Nitrofuracin Green

Our special formulation of Nitrofurazone, Furazolidone, Methylene Blue and sodium chloride.

USE: Anti- microbial, anti- protozoan, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal. Wide spectrum.  Good for newly arrived fish in quarantine situations.  Also good for healing wounds and ammonia burn on newly arriving fish.

Any way, you did your best with what you knew at the time and cared enough to learn and ask - don't beat yourself up (like I do, lol)... and best going forward.

PS... usually not all of a sudden... just reached critical mass or tipping point then seems like wham... but took time (again it could have been as I've experienced something in the water, maybe, but as well the "worms" tell another major contribution in direction of what was off.

Sherry



re <<I did a routine cleaning of the tank and over nite 1 guppy and the cory cat died. I suspect my water as it was the only common factor and was done the same time. I did it like always I got my water ready and added my aquasafe with bioextract like I always do, could something be wrong with my water all of a sudden it is fall and I did read in the paper they had worked on the water and tested it all and we passed but that makes me wnder if the added something to it. My fish in the 10 gallon tank were not sick and were very healthy and the tank looked clear and fine.
 I was worried about the 20 gallon tank because after the water change it looked cloudy and the worms made me clean it again so I could really do a good gravel vaccume.>>

[bettaboy]

Additional links re water chemistry (for future reads).  Obviously some of this information is common knowledge - but much is complicated and can explain much when "disaster" strikes (I have many books but these links provide much useful information.  As well there is much we can not test, therefore water maintenance is key at the start.

I apologize for this if it seems Off Topic - but with this knowledge one can see how the "missing" element or more can be found from a variety of sources - it is not easy to try to create nature in an enclosed relatively small space - that's for sure! lol
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A fantastic site full of information missed by others.


see link as well below in list.  (note his mention of detritus worms)[/size

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/03/trematodes-and-nematodes-in-fish.html

http://americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_cleaning.html

(6)*Control of Bio Load; Although cleanings are not the long term answer to an over crowded, over fed, and under filtered aquarium, cleanings are certainly necessary to lower your bio load by removal of decaying organics in your gravel, under décor, and often in under maintained filters as well.


A common symptom of a high organic load is rapidly dropping pH and KH as well as sighting of Detritus Worms during cleanings or when oxygen levels drop (these worms will rise to the surface when oxygen levels are low seeking oxygen). These Worms are often misidentified as Planaria by many here on the internet, however they are not Planaria (which can be present too), Planaria are not a worm! For more on this subject, please read this article: Trematodes and Nematodes/ Detritus Worms

Also, see redox potential from same site.

 (7)*Redox Potential ; this is an often unknown parameter to many aquarists but is actually quite important, especially with newer research I have uncovered. That said most freshwater aquarists usually do not need to worry about this if water changes and other aspects of good aquatic husbandry are observed (for marine aquariums this is even more important and is often not as easily maintained). However, I would recommend learning more about this parameter if you are a serious aquarist, and the purchase of a Redox meter if you can afford one (they sell for over $200) may be a useful tool as well.

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An example (mine) of how all this research came together with unexpected deaths of cories..... although solution was not what I normally would consider. (but remembered just enough of prior research to pretty quickly find a solution while fish were in hospital....pending "remedy"...) (and now you know why I am downsizing from 8 to two tanks - one 75 and one huge globe betta "bowl" (50 gallon)

.......

And  reason for weekly testing (my oops -  my lesson, never assume even after years of steady state that things won't change).... suddenly (but I am sure it was not so sudden) my cories would go up then float back down upside down... two died.  I knew it was not whirling disease but had no idea.  My for decades super hard water now was so acid (about 6 and even below - yellow!)  It come that way out of the tap but in the tank even with drift wood ( a 75 greatly understocked, about ten small fish and 3 cories now, ) and lots of branchy wood with moss... I was slowly over the months selling my wood and trimming moss to add to the sail (quarts) but it grew back rapidly.  (wood from other tanks).... all of a sudden it did not, and I for the first time every had the blue greenn algae.  After I tested the water, I took out all remaining cories and put them in a hospital tank and added a small amount (over time) of salt (yes they can handle a certain amount).

I added shells and baking soda to slowly raise the ph (over a few days) to 6.8 at least and with that stable started researhching.  Essentially, as winter approached phosphates are added to the water supply - which changed the "buffering" (makes my head spin) and my ph dropped rapidly although due to cories dying over time (week) must have been going on for a while.  A confluence of factors, apt reaching over 100 degrees due to heat wave... trimming most all of my java moss at the same time (unsuspectingly) and there fore since only plant life, decrease of gasses being utilized by that, appearance of blue green algae which thrives with phosphate and lower ph.... and this was the toxic chemical that caused the neuro damage to the cories... the one that floated recovered fine after the cyanobacteria was killed (see below) (and my favorite grand pa was the first - had him for years, had no symptoms, just dead next day - although he looked me in the eye night before and I thought hmmm. (just intuition).

After I stabilized the ph, (now back up btw - so short term shift in municipality water and grave reminder to me to do weekly water checks) I soaked the wood moss in Erythromycin and it worked exactly as Nat Fish Pharma said it would...   (I was able to do this as all my plants are on the wood which is on suction cups which means I can easily take it out - all by design, lol .)

Now the moss is growing back, ph has gone back to normal high level (and sure all other kh, gh so on) and corries have not died since.

So, you never know, but see how many factors were involved... I sure learned about things I did not before. (and as I had never had cyanobacteria before did not realize how it can kill fish fast.)

In nature btw algae including this one is crucial to all life forms (I learned it grows in the rice paddies and adds - forget which - certain nutrients back into the soils/water that is crucial for rice  growing... again, all in balance - hard to do in an enclosed system such as the home aquarium.)

A Necessary Evil

Cyanobacteria are found all over the world, everywhere. They live in fresh and salt water, in the soil and even in extreme places where most other life can't survive. They can be an annoyance in the aquarium and we strive to eliminate visible colonies in our tanks, but they are essential to life as we know it.

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There is much more information on this topic (see fisheries, aqucultures, veterinarian manuals so on).

http://naturalaquariums.com/plantedtank/0608.html

...

(the Krib which has stellar membership is older cached information - most today would not add chemicals to raise or lower ph hardness but get fish appropriate to one's local water - if it even stays stable - mine does not.)  Raising is easier, and when I tried to lower mine with  more natural methods such as peat (tons) loads of wood so on it would not due to chemicals added in municipal water supply.  It is 7.8 and fish are fine and black neon tetras laid eggs (then promptly ate them, lol) and the Normani Lamp eyes have laid eggs and fry survived.  Most commercially bred (over generations) fish are adaptable.  As mentioned at the bottom of this information Reverse Osmosis (RO) water is a must for certain fish and easier then trying to adjust the water with chemicals (change one factor all else changes) (or distilled).

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html

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http://www.bestfish.com/oldtank.html

Note the difference in ph and toxicity and bacterial If NitrAte levels are continually rising, it can be assumed that other, more threatening but harder to test, compounds are accumulating as well.

The same processes that reduce ammonia to NitrIte to NitrAte also produce an abundance of hydrogen ions, which, if left to their own accord, acidify the water. In water from some sources that contain few "buffers" (ions that help stabilize pH by combining with excess hydrogen or hydroxyl ions), pH will tend to decline steadily just as the NitrAte increases, and again regular pH testing may help alert the aquarist to impending trouble. However, in more heavily buffered water, an interesting but more threatening phenomenon occurs. As hydrogen ions are produced, they are immediately tied up by the buffer ion, and the pH remains roughly the same - until all the buffer ions are used up. At this point, the pH drops rapidly, and this sudden "pH crash" can be very damaging to fish.

If this process is allowed to continue (and a few, very hardy fish survive), another interesting biochemical phenomena occurs. At a pH of about 5.5 or less, the bacteria that usually convert ammonia to NitrIte are inhibited, so ammonia levels begin to rise. Strangely, though, the low pH actually protects the remaining fish by keeping the ammonia in the non-toxic ammonia (molecular) form instead of the very toxic ammonium (ionic) form! It is not uncommon to see an old, neglected tank with a pH reading off the bottom of the chart, ammonia and NitrAte off the top, and a couple of old-timer fish still swimming about.

More from the krib on what I knew as a child (50 years ago) that plants help greatly when setting up a new tank (Dr. Innes 1930 - I actually found the book I lost from the library and had to work all summer to pay the five bucks off..... old book stores)


http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9810/msg00306.html

Properly set up planted tanks do _not_ "cycle" like a normal "fish" tank.
If you've done it right, there will be _no_ measureable ammonia or NitrIte
spike.  The plants use most of the available ammonia(um) before it has a
chance to enter the nitrogen "cycle".  If there is any left over, the HUGE
surface area of the plants, and the nitrifying bacteria imported with them
is more than enough to handle the rest.

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Old Tank Syndrome -

http://www.bestfish.com/oldtank.html

<<>>


In case anyone wants to really understand it all, lol.

Great site.  Highly recommend the following - he has much experience and writes in a manner that makes it easier to understand.

http://americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_cleaning.html


http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/caco3.html

http://www.aquaria.info/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=46914

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm

Emergency relief for high ammonia levels.


Important notes on ammonia and pH - much more valuable information at this site.


http://www.beverlyspet.com/fishtalk/Handling%20High%20Ammonia%20Levels.htm
 

<<Often, when ammonia levels rise in an aquarium, the pH will drop. It would be a logical assumption to attempt to correct this situation by raising the pH to normal levels. This would be logical, but it is far from correct and in fact could be deadly to your fish.  Ammonia takes two forms in water, free ammonia and ammonium ions, with free ammonia being the more toxic form. A pH increase of one unit causes the percentage of free ammonia to increase by about ten times. Put simply, as pH increases ammonia becomes more toxic to the fish.

It is usually best to leave a low pH alone while fighting high ammonia levels. The fish in the tank have slowly become accustomed to the lower pH and you are not about to add any new fish at this time! It is difficult to try to maintain the normal pH levels when ammonia is high. This means the pH drops, then you raise it, then it drops again and you raise it again. Can you see another problem here? The constantly changing pH is further stress on fish that are already lining up for some Valium. This leads us to our new logical conclusion, leave the pH alone until ammonia levels drop, then slowly (.2 every 12-24 hrs.) bring the pH back to appropriate levels.>>

Great well informed sites.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwhardness.htm

This is one of the sites I order my bio cultures from (had to beg for some last time as they  no longer do retail - sigh as was the best.)

Other great source is the National Fish Pharmecuitical (Aqua gold)  These both are dried cultivated strains that are fed by their own formula... fantastic and unlike any on the over the counter market sold at pet stores.

The above as well has an excellent discussion on how these work and why they are vital (plus photos!)....  The Doctor spoke at great lengths with me on how algae is controlled (and just enough in the aquarium to play it's role when in proper balance) by what would occur in nature.

http://www.biodigesters.net/pond-products.htm

Biodigester microbes are reliable scavengers that thrive on organic mass (waste). As supplied they are in suspended animation (micro-encapsulated) but are revived when added to the tank / pond water. Shortly thereafter, they begin to digest excreta, excess food, oxidize ammonia, reduce nitrites, nitrates, and other N-Compounds and reduce odors.

Aquatic ponds and tanks frequently become plagued with; algae in many forms, fish excrement, ammonia, nitrates and nitrites and poor water clarity from organic matter. By out competing the natural occurring bacteria for the available food sources, algae and odor causing bacteria die off and thus the objectionable smell is eliminated. In addition it consumes pond waste; bottom solids, fish excrement, organic and plant matter while eliminating odors.




Misc.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php#6


http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/aquarium/msg06192248727.html

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/aquarium/msg1118362415506.html

(carbon, and other media and pro's con's.)  Great info...  in general the carbon of today is a cheaper grade from China and not at all like the one's we used as kids (decades ago)...

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/marineland_carbon.php

http://fins.actwin.com/fish/aquatic-plants/month.200104/msg00540.html


http://www.aquariumpros.com/faqpro/filtration_1.shtml

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/caco3.html

[onebettarepublic]

Could her tank be going through a mini cycle by over cleaning?  I ask because the cloudiness....I would do smaller changes frequently, back off the food.  A small pinch once a day, enough for them to consume in say one minute.  Mine are usually done in thirty seconds.  They are pigs!  I have seen the wormies in my tank from time to time, and I just pull up the slack so to speak...
As for hardier fish.  I agree with Wendyjo,  I have had guppies many times and usually lose some here and there and end up replacing the expensive pretty one's i've bought.  Overall they are one of my least fav fish.  I second Yippies tetras suggesions, I've had luck with neons in the past in an established tank they seem to do well.  Also Cherry Barbs are nice fish.
Consider a trio of cories they do well in groups as they are schooling fish.

And Last but not Least!  I'm one of the "A dash of Aquarium Salt(Kosher will do and is cheaper) Works Wonders" enthusiast.

Everyone has differing oppinions on this, but I use it frequetntly...adding more when I see a need, and when things are good focusing less on adding it.